Over Aggressive

[Spark]

Q. Is there any benefit to the Wing Chun practitioner who completely goes out to dominate their chi sau partner? ie. going 150% using all their 'tricks', moves or applications - regardless of the skill lever of their partner.

[Jeff Brown]

Since my original reply to Spark was deleted, I will try to rephrase.

Spark, from the way in which I read your post, I take it that you don't see any value in a clearly superior WC practitioner dominating a less-skilled partner.

Could you be more specific, please?

Are you referring to a better Chi Sao-er who exploits his or her talents to humilate the junior, or does the superior individual stop occasionally and give advice to the junior as to where he or she went wrong?

In the former case, I'd say the aggression is unwarranted; in the latter, I don't see any problem with it.

There's no better way to shake someone out of a false sense of "my skills are great!" than to put those alleged skills to the test.

Having said that, I have seen aggression go unchecked and result in injury. A responsible Sifu will not let things go too far in class, because that would defeat the learning process as well as be morally reprehensible.

[Sihing73]

Hello Spark,

In my mind Chi Sau is not about competition. It is a means of aiding you and your partner in developing better sensitivity and awareness of body position and energy.

In my mind a person who goes all out, unless it is to show or train a specific thing such as how open someone is, is wasting his time and his partners. Many people can use tricks to touch their opponent/partner in Chi Sau. I feel it is better to try and get the technique down rather than to rely on tricks or too much overly aggressive behavior to dominate someone. In a real fight; dominate and overwhelm the opponent. In Chi Sau work together so you can both benefit.
Someone who relies heavily on tricks may get a big surprise if and when they meet someone who knows Chi Sau.

Chi Sau is about partnership not competing.

Peace,

Dave

[wingchunalex]

if someone does that they are just trying to sparr during a drill. chi sau is to develope sensitivity. if the other person never has a chance to attack them then they never have a chance to work on their sensitivity

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[Jeff Brown]

I agree that the student who, regardless of his opponents skills (or lack thereof), simply goes all out, every time in chi sao, as though it were a fight to the death, is missing the point of chi sao (as Dave points out well).

However, there is nothing wrong with a little aggressive behaviour once and awhile -- if anything it should remind people that Wing Chun isn't a social club but a training ground for MARTIAL applications.

Bottom line: it's up to the Sifu to determine what is acceptable behaviour in class. If the Sifu finds a student's antics inappropriate, he should just be upfront with the student and tell him to revise his approach.

[Spark]

To add to one of your first question - i think it was about a superior practitioner dominating their partner.

Now what about two practitioners roughly at the same level ...

I think what i'm really asking is that is the student who is going full out, punching, kicking, throwing, their 'partner', actually learning anything? Will their lack of reciprocity eventually catch up with them?

[chisauking]

Overwhelming your partner serves no purpose other than demonstrate the skill level achievable. When training with a lesser opponent, consideration of his skill level & restraint should be exercised at all time.

I’m not going to bore all concerned with my concept of chisau, because I feel that most people here have already formed their own concept and idea of chisau. However, I would point out that regardless of what you think chisau is, there’s one universal truth that’s incontrovertible: it either works or doesn’t work. To me, chisau must have a practical application. If not, then why do so many wing chun practitioners spend so many hours practicing it? If you say that chisau is about controlling energy, then you should be able to demonstrate that within chisau. After all, if you can’t apply chisau in class – what I would term a “controlled environment” – what are the chances that you can “miraculously” apply it on the street? If you can’t stop your opponent’s techniques within the close-quarter confinement of chisau, what chances have you when your opponent have the freedom of space? The truth is, if you can’t apply chisau, or chisau’s attribute, in class, then it’s highly unlikely that you can apply it for real.

Chisau may or may not be a competition, but I know that to introduce a competitive element into chisau would increase one’s ability to progress far faster. We, as humans, are very competitive minded. We are forever striving for perfection and betterment. Why else do you think we have so many national and international events and competitions? Do you think football, baseball, or basketball would have the same impact if there were no scoring? No, because it is far more interesting when there is a sporting and competitive element. In fact, life is more fun and interesting when you have someone to compete against.

Many people say that chisau is a complimentary exercise, but I personally believe this is only half true. At the lowest level, chisau should be practiced in a complimentary manner, so your partner has a chance to analyse his techniques, positioning and structure. However, you would achieve nothing but bad habits if you practice chisau in a complimentary manner at a higher level. This is because in a real fight, your opponent is being directly the opposite of complimentary. He’s fully resisting your attempts by opposing your energy. So, how would you learn about resistive force and the angles of attacks if you practice chisau complimentary all the time? How would you learn to react when your opponent is trying to overwhelm and dominate you? The simple answer is, you can’t. You must not work together all the time in chisau.

Quote: Many people can use tricks to touch their opponent/partner in Chi Sau.

May I ask, what tricks? If your intention is to “touch” in chisau, then I’m afraid you have the wrong concept of chisau in this respect. When we practice chisau, we are in fact learning to use our actual wing chun techniques. If an opening, or weak energy point, exist, then we should attack with significant power. If you only “touch” your opponent, how are you going to develop your close-quarter generating power? The only time you should only touch your opponent is when the skill level is wide between the exponents, when there’s a real possibility of injuring your partner. For example, a sifu and new student.

Last, but not least, why do people always repeat meaningless phrases? Like: chisau isn’t fighting?
Of course, if one wish to be literally correct and pedantic, then this statement is correct, since the absolute definition of fighting is partaking in a battle or war. But then, one can argue just as well that wing chun or a punch or kick isn’t fighting, since wing chun is simply a style of combat, and a punch or kick is simply methods which we use to fight. However, if your definition of fighting is trying to physically hurt someone, then you must accept that chisau is fighting. After all, I can convince anyone that my 3-inch punch generated within chisau can break anyone’s nose, or my jiang can knock most people out. If you don’t consider that as “physically hurting someone”, then I don’t know what is.

[Jeff Brown]

Michael, thanks for not boring anyone with a really long,drawn out reply... :rolleyes:

Spark, who knows, maybe your Sifu is ordering this person to behave in this way in class. if it really bothers you, talk to your Sifu and find out why it's happening.

Again, if students aren't happy, they can always vote with their feet!

[EmptyCup]

There is always a problem when people don't know what proper behavior is. Many martial arts sudents don't know restraint or respect. I remember my first few classes with my second sifu...many sihings were using the new students like me, as human punching bags! I had been doing Wing Chun since I was six or seven so I could have cleaned the floore with these guys but I didn't resist at all. I didn't hit back because it would not be showing my sifu respect if I pulled off moves that I learned elsewhere...however, my sifu should have told the senior students to act their level instead of turning a blind eye...

I'm not going to get into that right now...the thing is, many people have to remember that chi sau is practice, an aid for wing chun. It is an exercise and not a competition to prove you are the better fighter. The purpose is not to beat your opponent...lethal techniques should not be used such as finger jab or elbows, yet time and time again I see people being seriously injured from such techniques thrown during close-quarters chi sau...the excuse is always "it was an accident"

That is precisely why they shouldn't be used. If they are not used, there is no room for accidents to occur, as accidents are things that you failed to prevent due to your own error...

When I do chi sau with people, I hardly attack...I mostly block. Sometimes when I'm against really good people I will try out one or two attacks but when I am against people who are at a lower level, I attack slowly to let them practice their techniques and whatnot...I don't need to beat the crap out of them or show off my awesome skills...I gain just as much from helping another learn because one day that student will become good enough to offer me some practice in return :)

CHOI

"if you can’t apply chisau in class – what I would term a “controlled environment” – what are the chances that you can “miraculously” apply it on the street? If you can’t stop your opponent’s techniques within the close-quarter confinement of chisau, what chances have you when your opponent have the freedom of space? The truth is, if you can’t apply chisau, or chisau’s attribute, in class, then it’s highly unlikely that you can apply it for real."

I disagree with your comment on some levels. If you are referring to chi sau techniques such as trapping, then yes, if you cannot do it in chi sau practice you will not be able to pull them off effectively on the street. However, if you are talking about using the tools of wing chun for fighting, chi sau skill has less to do with real fighting than free sparring or actual combat experience...

There are many out there that can fight who never did chi sau in their entire lives...

Most chi sau techniques are meant to reinforce key concepts and principles...the actual techniques are seldom used in real situations. Triple trap and attack combinations aren't exactly everyday occurences

[chisauking]

Empty?

Quote: There are many out there that can fight who never did chi sau in their entire lives...
Another totally meaningless statement. One can argue just as well that many who had practice chisau can fight even better. Has it ever occurred to you that people have natural attributes for fighting? But who’s to say those people can’t improve their fighting skills with the practice of chisau? The fact is, we can ALL fight. The question is, to what degree?

Quote: Most chi sau techniques are meant to reinforce key concepts and principles...the actual techniques are seldom used in real situations. Triple trap and attack combinations aren't exactly everyday occurrences
I see, so what you are saying is that we practice 1000’s of hours on techniques that we don’t ever use? What’s the difference between the punch we use in chisau, and the punch we use on the streets? Indeed, what are the difference between the techniques that we use in chisau, and the techniques that we apply in actual combat?

I don’t mean to be rude, but I think it isn’t only your cup that’s empty.

Now do you understand why I had said that most people have already formed their own opinion and concept of chisau?

Unlike other people that only talk loudly, you are welcome to chisau with me if you ever have the chance. The thing with chisau is that it’s a hands-on experience; it isn’t easy to convince people of your views simply by writing. I will extend my hand of friendship to all others on this forum. If you want to chisau with me, just give me a buzz. I may be travelling to Canada in the near future. If you want, we can arrange to meet.

[EmptyCup]

quote: "what are the chances that you can “miraculously” apply it on the street? If you can’t stop your opponent’s techniques within the close-quarter confinement of chisau, what chances have you when your opponent have the freedom of space? The truth is, if you can’t apply chisau, or chisau’s attribute, in class, then it’s highly unlikely that you can apply it for real."

You just contradicted yourself. You made the generalized statement that people who can't chi sau up to your standards have almost zero chance of using wing chun on the street. Many would argue that you don't need chi sau to use wing chun on the street...

quote: "What’s the difference between the punch we use in chisau, and the punch we use on the streets?"

nothing. That is why you don't need chi sau to be able to use wing chun on the streets.

quote: "so what you are saying is that we practice 1000’s of hours on techniques that we don’t ever use?"

If you think that you use EVERYTHING that you practice in your martial art then you are a fool. Then your head would be even emptier than mine ;)
Wing Chun would be perfect...free from error! Why don't all martial artists all gather around and take this 100% useful art? You've gotta be kidding...

quote: "Now do you understand why I had said that most people have already formed their own opinion and concept of chisau?"

Speaking of yourself...

quote: "Unlike other people that only talk loudly, you are welcome to chisau with me if you ever have the chance. The thing with chisau is that it’s a hands-on experience; it isn’t easy to convince people of your views simply by writing"

I know. Maybe that's why you don't sound convincing ;)

[EmptyCup]

born in 88 but have 15 years experience? and you want people to meet up with you to chi sau? try a little honesty first ;) please tell me 88 was chosen cuz it's a significant number to you and not that you wer actually born then...otherwise your arrogant views aren't based on much experience...

[Jeff Brown]

I was in a bit of a hurry last night so I didn't fully answer your question.

Yes, I do think the lack of reciprocity will eventually catch up to the kind of student you're describing.

Having said that, I think the best way to avoid this sort of problem is to spend 15-20 minutes maximum with a partner, then switch around. This way you can avoid prolonged contact with a student you don't care for without making him or her "lose face," train with a greater variety of people, all of whom have their own uniquenesses to which you will become even more sensitive, and continue to study something you probably really like.