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rubthebuddha
03-29-2004, 11:41 AM
i got my copy of RKC a couple weeks ago, and after navigating through an ill-timed wrist injury (got it the night before the dvd arrived :mad: ), i've done just about all the goodness on rkc, i'm wondering about it neglecting some muscle groups, as well as some other points. keep in mind that i'm doing all this with a 30-lb. dumbbell (wasn't gonna fork out the cash for a kb unless i felt the exercises themselves were worth it).

1. certain areas like the chest, arms and lower legs are largely neglected.
2. range of motion on most the cleans, swings, etc. aren't doing squat (no pun intended) for my legs, as i'm not bending any more than maybe 30 degrees at the knee.

again, remember i'm doing this with a 30-lb dummy, which is just enough to be fun (30-lbs on my first side presses and windmills felt really nice), and i know i'm just getting into this. also, i've only seen rkc, so i'm sure other vids and such have a ton more exercises.

for those in the know, feel free to suggest what made your kb training better, or point out when i'm doing something entirely wrong. i have a gut feeling kbs are what i want to focus on, but i don't want progress on other muscles to go by the wayside.

Ford Prefect
03-29-2004, 11:53 AM
Hey Rub,

It is pretty hard to hit the chest with "KB exercises", so you could always just do flies on a bench or flat on the ground. For your lower legs, doing snatches barbell-oly style will hit them pretty decently and even more so since you can go for so long since it's easier bailing out of a KB snatch than a BB snatch. I like to strip set front squats with calve raises, jump shrugs, and even just heel raises.

For the quads, you could front squats and overhead squats. It's not perfect and it's not the same as barbell squatting but it's good enough if fitness is your concern and not squat poundages.

Suntzu
03-29-2004, 12:00 PM
try going into a deeper squat for the movements that require a squat....... when you "lockout' the legs..lock and squeeze.... use a heavier dumbell.... and remember KBs are a PART of a nutritious well balanced meal.....

rubthebuddha
03-29-2004, 12:08 PM
thanks gents. i haven't done any squat work with 'em, and i'm not going to get a heavier db. if i get anything, it'll just be a heavier kb (52 lb. or so to start with) and do this stuff right. i know little about proper o-lifting, and since kbs are an easier way to get into it, i'm all for it.

ford -- a barbell-style snatch just goes a lot lower on the squat portion, right?

another couple questions for all -- how do you set your workouts? and where can a david find more exercises outside of expanding pavel's retirement fund?

Suntzu
03-29-2004, 12:25 PM
there was a GOOD thread on KB wokouts here once… I'm sure a search will give you some good ideas… I usually just pick it up and do what I feel… dragondoor's forum has ideas for days…

fa_jing
03-29-2004, 12:34 PM
Cleans with 30lbs. are useless, unless you are doing sets of 1000.
When you get your 53 lb. KB, do one-armed Long Cycle clean & jerk for sets of 10, you will find that challenging.

Swings should hit your hamstrings and glutes, make your arms floppy like spaghetti, it should be all legs and back and abs, and no arms. When I first tried swings it was with 15 lbs, and I got soreness in the hams after 10 sets of 12.

Chest and calves have to be the two areas that KB's work the least. You can do floor presses or extended range floor presses for the chest and they are decent exercises, but IMO Power Pushup 2 or Bench press is a more complete solution.

For calves, Pavel recommended high swings and come up on your toes at the top of the swing. Personally, I use jumping jacks and jumping rope for calves.

For the arms, the triceps get hit real hard with all of the overhead work. I think you mean the biceps. Solution: pullups, chins, one or two armed bent over rows with the KB, or just curl your dumbell. Snatches will actually work your biceps hard for a while, until you adjust to them.

I would look at KB's for now as a general conditioning tool until you get your form down. Take your KB to the park and do circuit training with swings, snatches, c & J, pullups, dips, clap pushups, jogs around the park - you get the idea. Windmills are great too, BTW, but are difficult to learn without some coaching.

Later, after 2-3 months, you will want to buy a second KB of equal or greater size, if you want to do more strength-oriented work.

Do pay attention to the following exercises not on Pavel's RKC tape:

Front squats
Overhead squat
Squat Jerk
Single legged Deadlift
Pistol with KB

rubthebuddha
03-29-2004, 12:51 PM
will do. also, i found this link that the mighty Ka posted way back in the day, and figgered it bears repeating:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kettlename.php

Ford Prefect
03-29-2004, 01:22 PM
Rub,

I meant Barbell Power Snatching... Barbell Oly-lifting is done in two-pulls. The first pull is very slow like a deadlift and gets the the weight off the floor. The weight is slowly brought to a little higher than the knee level when the second pull happens.

The second pull is where the explosion in oly lifts happens. It's like a calf-raise, barbell shrug, back arch, and jump all in one crisp movement. You basically explosively extend your hips (strighten your legs) which causes the jump while you simultaneously and explosively go up on your tippy-toes and shrug your shoulders (common advice for a beginner is "Think Calves and Traps" since you want them both firing at the same time), and you're also explosively pulling the weight and arching your back, so you do an upright row and your body looks like a bow "(". The weight is now airborn and it is at this point if you are doing a full olympic snatch or clean that you fall under the weight to catch weight. If you are doing the power variety then the weight will fall right into place. There is more to it than this and this is why they are considered very technical. Just being able to coordinate all this movement takes a lot of practice.

Because of the nature of how an oly lift is performed the calves and traps get hit hard because the contraction is so hard and fast. You can transfer this over to kb lifting. It actually makes the lifts a little easier althought it's hard to get the same hand poistioning without the bar. I don't think I could double snatch the 72 pounders if I hadn't had experiencing oly lifting before.

rubthebuddha
03-29-2004, 02:31 PM
ford -- gotcha.

question on o-lifts: does anyone have a side that has video examples of o-lifts being done well? i remember about two years ago, someone posted a link with a woman doing some dang good lifts, but i lost that link.

Ford Prefect
03-29-2004, 02:39 PM
Don't know of any decent video links with explanations. This is OK, but still pretty crappy:

http://strengthtraining.asimba.com/fitness_info/index.html

The site has tons of videos and explanations about all different types of exercises. ;)

There are decent books and tape sets out there. For your powerclean form: If bringing the weight to your shoulders looks anything like the ascending part of a reverse curl then you are doing it dead wrong. This is one of the most common mistakes I see.

Ka
03-29-2004, 03:20 PM
Check this one out
http://www.accottawa.com/2002/olympic.htm
If you can get proper instruction in O Lifting on a Platform do it.Its well worth it.
Re:KBs
I found the Steve Cotter vid very good,packed with usefulll variations.
Fajing's extra excerises are a definate

IronFist
03-29-2004, 03:23 PM
It's kinda hard to work your chest if you're not laying on your back. You know, cuz of gravity and all.


. certain areas like the chest, arms and lower legs are largely neglected.


Yes, same thing in the "standard" PTP program (just side presses and deadlifts). That's why when I do PTP I do squats, bench, and weighted pullups. That works the whole body, except maybe calves. And traps.

fa_jing
03-29-2004, 05:52 PM
hey, in KB lifting, when you jerk you throw your chest forward and you look like ( even when you reach full extension. I did a similar thing with the barbell jerk, according to my friend's comment.
Of course if the weight is heavy enough, I don't think you want to do that.....seems like too much pressure on the spine.

Anyway, here is the link you guys are looking for




haha (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21881&highlight=ironfist)

Ford Prefect
03-30-2004, 07:15 AM
Yeah. You'd quickly bury yourself under a pile of iron if you tried that with a heavy jerk. 190 lbs in a jerk is really only a beginner's jerk since you are going for 1RM strength. Arching your back like that while throwing up 300+ pounds (or 500+ pounds if you're an olympian) would be a recipe for disater.