View Full Version : Emin Boztepe Challenged
Face2Fist
03-30-2004, 01:22 PM
Some MMA guy has called out Emin
http://martialarts.dk/vis_emne.asp?id=5246&mode=
MasterKiller
03-30-2004, 01:27 PM
I like how there are 30 things you can't do in his No-Holds-Barred tournament.
Face2Fist
03-30-2004, 01:39 PM
i have read other forums and emin is got challenged by royce gracie and bas rutten, why do people challenge him, is it because he is a good fighter or does he have a big mouth?
MasterKiller
03-30-2004, 02:08 PM
Big mouth.
The biggest.
Ford Prefect
03-30-2004, 02:10 PM
He claims things that he can't back up.
MasterKiller, the early UFC's and even now in Brazil they have tourney's where the only rules are no biting, no eye gouging, and no fish hooking. You have a problem with those?
MasterKiller
03-30-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
MasterKiller, the early UFC's and even now in Brazil they have tourney's where the only rules are no biting, no eye gouging, and no fish hooking. You have a problem with those? Nope. I'm all for fighter safety. But, if you have 30 things you can't do, it's not no-holds-barred, now is it?
red5angel
03-30-2004, 02:55 PM
this happens about twice a year. Boztepe never takes the challenge, he's too busy beating up on old men ;)
Emin has a big mouth and claims to have had over 400 fights in his lifetime on the street and he came out A-OK all because of EBMAS......
PHILBERT
03-30-2004, 04:17 PM
Emin won't accept it because there are rules. He said time and again, if you want to fight him, go visit his school in L.A. and they'll walk out in front of the school and do it right there. No gloves, no mat, no rules, etc.
MonkeySlap Too
03-30-2004, 05:22 PM
Well, I'm no Wing tschunm guy, but I've met Emin Boztepe. He demonstrated a competent level of Turkish wrestling skills (probably Greco-Roman though from his school days in Germany). I can see why some would find him pompus - he was ready and willing to fight to prove his point. Which is no vice, as long as it is tempered by a little discretion and humanity. I don't get the impression that he is the worlds greatest fighter, but I don't think he would get as tooled as easy as most Wing Chun guys in a MMA situation either.
He gets criticized for fighting William Cheung - but WC was talking a lot of smack, these things happen. I would criticize the fight itself - it did not look very much how the VT fights are suppossed to go.
Ah, but what do I know...
SifuAbel
03-30-2004, 05:52 PM
I would have these removed.
8. Small joint manipulation.
10. Striking using the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the
trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh (os, that means - no titty twisters!).
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
To clarify
29. Is not the same as being elusive.
Thsi one might be fun.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the fenced area.
IronFist
03-30-2004, 08:08 PM
I hope this fight happens. That would be cool.
There is a link on that page to Emin's site or something where he's challenging the Gracie's directly. He says the only rules will be no gloves and the winner is the one who knocks out his opponent.
No gloves, eh?
Interesting.
So would that allow eye gouges and such?
PHILBERT
03-30-2004, 09:46 PM
IronFist, it won't ever happen. That challenge has been up on Boztepe's site for years. Boztepe will NEVER accept ANY challenge unless it is in front of his school (or another building) because he says he does not train or fight with rules, but for the street. What better place to fight, than the street? He most likely won't even allow you to fight him in his Kwoon.
WanderingMonk
03-30-2004, 10:58 PM
won't fight unless it is on the "street", geeze, may be someone should have told him william cheung wasn't on the street, but he didn't have any problem fighting william.
May be "street" is being used as a metaphor. This "street" can be anywhere you want it to be. But, in this case, it seems that the street is the street in front of his school and only that street.
err, just read the open letter and it is not a serious challenge. It is just a freakin promotion for the nhb event promoter to make some money.
Heck, following their logics, I should hold an nhb event somewhere in the US, issue an open challenge to the Gracies, have they come down to beat my ass. I cover their train ticket and the stay at the local YMCA ('cuss that's how frugal I am), but I get to sell tickets and keep all the money. "brilliant".
Ben Gash
03-31-2004, 04:23 AM
rule number 7 :eek: :eek: :eek:
PHILBERT
03-31-2004, 07:04 AM
WanderingMonk, that was EIGHTEEN years ago. You can not sit there and tell me your opinions on any subject have changed in 18 years. Maybe 18 years ago he had alot of crap going on, but Cheung was bad mouthing everyone (and still is actually) claiming he had the only true Wing Chun, and he was the toughest man alive. Boztepe called him on it, and Cheung TURNED his back to him. Maybe 18 years ago Boztepe had a different opinion on fighting, but people change. No one is consistent on every single opinion over an 18 year period. A 20 year old might have no problem drinking and driving, but when he or she is 38, they will think differently.
MasterKiller
03-31-2004, 07:44 AM
18 years ago, I thought girls had cooties.
red5angel
03-31-2004, 07:44 AM
hey wandering monk, whatyour not seeing is that Bobo trains hardcore qigong but it only works on asphault.
For those who don't realise, Bob attacked WC for publicity. They were both going back and forth talking smack, Emin decided to represent his organization and throw down. Sadly there wasn't a lick of wingchun in the whole fight.
Ray Pina
03-31-2004, 08:00 AM
But I can't bad mouth him for not accepting these challenges. He's rich and famous.... who are these bums?
If Jose Conseco traveld to every playground where some pimply 18-year-old though he had a good curveball and could strike him out -- he'd be tied up for years. You want to play at that level, get to that level.
Now, when I feel I am ready to really represent what I'm learning (and not just testing) I would like to have ago with guys like that. But I would send them a private letter and go to them.
As far as he fights outside his school; you kind of have to when someone shows up infront of your school and students ... comes with the trade.
PHILBERT
03-31-2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by MasterKiller
18 years ago, I thought girls had cooties.
18 years ago, I was flirting with women who were 18. Now, I am still flirting with these women.
Funny story, when I was 5, I went to go to the high school my brother went to. My mom had to pick him up during class for a doctor's appointment and they showed us to the classroom. Back then it wasn't as embarassing for your mom to come in to get you, and I went in with her. I remember staring at all the hot women with there 1988 hair cuts and thinking "Wow, these women are hot" and I was only 5. I never was into the whole cootie thing. I liked women as far back as I can remember, though I was shy, I loved how they were all like "AWwww, he's so adorable." when they saw me. I like to *think* that when this happened, I thought "Oh, yeah..." when in reality I was probably scared and ran behind my mom.
red5angel, now don't say that. There was some Wing Chun in that fight. They both "felt" through there sensitivity training in Chi Sao where the other person was as they were playing the slappy hand game on the ground. :D
red5angel
03-31-2004, 09:20 AM
I think they both felt something anyway! :D
Royal Dragon
03-31-2004, 10:18 AM
18 years ago, I thought girls had cooties.
Reply]
The sad part, is today, alot of women DO have cooties
:eek:
Shaolinlueb
03-31-2004, 10:29 AM
seriously they shouldnt call it NHB if there are fousl like this
Fouls
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind (but, youŽll most certainly try to do it anyway!).
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an
opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking using the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh (os, that means - no titty twisters!).
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area (Danish does not apply!).
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an
opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an
injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
wtf? rules=another reason MMA is :ghey: yeah i know some are meant for safety, they should call it controlled NHB fighting instead. if not they should jsut call it something cool like... BLOODSPORT!
Ultimatewingchun
03-31-2004, 10:30 AM
PHILBERT:
Boztepe was a coward then and he's a coward now...He surrounded Cheung with six of his friends and then challenged him...and has refused EVERY just-me-and-you-in-the-room challenge by Cheung's students for years now ever since 1986...he challenged the Gracie's and then backed down when they accepted...
Oh...now that's he's older he sees the light ?!?!?!
Shaolinlueb
03-31-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
PHILBERT:
Boztepe was a coward then and he's a coward now...He surrounded Cheung with six of his friends and then challenged him...and has refused EVERY just-me-and-you-in-the-room challenge by Cheung's students for years now ever since 1986...he challenged the Gracie's and then backed down when they accepted...
Oh...now that's he's older he sees the light ?!?!?!
anyone have a link to thsi boztepe's website at all?
Face2Fist
03-31-2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
But I can't bad mouth him for not accepting these challenges. He's rich and famous.... who are these bums?
.
who are these bums? well royce gracie is one of the top BJJ fighters in the world and his family is famous for bring BJJ to the US and Bas Rutten is a famous MMA fighter. as for the other who challenged emin dont know who he is...
SevenStar
03-31-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by IronFist
says the only rules will be no gloves and the winner is the one who knocks out his opponent.
What about the one who breaks all four of his opponent's limbs?
rubthebuddha
03-31-2004, 11:40 AM
still gotta knock 'em out.
not like someone with four broken limbs can do much to keep you from rendering them kfto, but hey, the limbless black knight still had some fight left in him.
MonkeySlap Too
03-31-2004, 11:44 AM
Seven * - broken limbs mean nothing to REAL KF man, why I'll just swing'em around and ean you with the. Chicken! Come back here! I can still fight! Why, I can knock you with my head here, see? Chicken! Hey where you going? gosh, my limbs hurt...
MasterKiller
03-31-2004, 11:44 AM
KO'ing someone ain't so easy in a real fight. You could easily beat the fizzuck out of them to the point of dain bramage and still not get the KO.
Ray Pina
03-31-2004, 11:55 AM
The Gracies were not even mentioned till after my most ... I respect them and their system. I also respect NHB fighters and MMA.
My point: why would someone with money, position and reputation go and fight an unknown nobody?
Fighting Gracie is another story. If he was secure in his ability to win I'm sure he would have for it would have increased all three for him.
SevenStar
03-31-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Face2Fist
who are these bums? well royce gracie is one of the top BJJ fighters in the world and his family is famous for bring BJJ to the US and Bas Rutten is a famous MMA fighter. as for the other who challenged emin dont know who he is...
If I'm not mistaken, emin challenged the gracies, not the other way around.
SevenStar
03-31-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Seven * - broken limbs mean nothing to REAL KF man, why I'll just swing'em around and ean you with the. Chicken! Come back here! I can still fight! Why, I can knock you with my head here, see? Chicken! Hey where you going? gosh, my limbs hurt...
you're absolutely right. He may even have an advantage then, as he could use his limbs as chain whips...
WanderingMonk
03-31-2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by PHILBERT
WanderingMonk, that was EIGHTEEN years ago. You can not sit there and tell me your opinions on any subject have changed in 18 years.
Philbert,
yes, cheung and Boztepe's fight was a while back. but, I haven't been keeping up and only found out about last year when I was looking at bullshido's clip collection. I know Boztepe had expressed regrets over what happened. I believe he wouldn't do it again today. but, his action also cause a lot of embarassment for everyone. just because he did it when he was much younger doesn't mean he is not responsible for his action nor should he be remind of it when comes to challenge fights. Maybe he will be more reflective. Everyone has live with what he/she did when he/she were young. but, forgivness is necessary so people can move on.
I browse hk forum and the bitterness between two camps (wt vs wc) is horrible decades after the start of the feud. Doesn't boztepe has some responsibility?
People in mma forum use this fight as the ultimate verification of uselessness of kungfu in general and wc/wt in particular. is everybody happy? I only let off a bit of steam, and I don't think I was overly harsh.
PHILBERT
03-31-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
anyone have a link to thsi boztepe's website at all?
http://64.45.10.30/
red5angel
03-31-2004, 04:02 PM
yes that's right folks, thanks to Philberts link you too can see Emin "Bobo" Boztepe in all his glorious shirtless action!!! Watch him straght blast his way through the gracies! Watch him bong sau helpless old men and small children! And if you order now, you won't get just one Emin Boztepe Invisible Shirt! (TM) you'll get two!!! Only 19.99 some restrictions apply!
EBMAS? Not the most fear-inspiring name for a martial art I've ever heard.
I HEREBY DO PUBLICALLY CHALLENGE EMIN BOSTEPE TO A 37-RULE NHB MATCH!!!
Face2Fist
03-31-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
The Gracies were not even mentioned till after my most ... I respect them and their system. I also respect NHB fighters and MMA.
.
emin mention them in another article, it was challenge between him and the gracies.
Gangsterfist
03-31-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
are you kidding? that emin vs william fight was hilarious!
my shooes! my shooooess! soooo slippy no good ahhhhh we're on the floor on thr floor all slappy now all slappy.
what the hell was that???
possibly worse than taichi vs white crane :D
hahahahaha
sorry, just being a d.ick, but hell man, if people insist on taping those things.
cro-cop would apparently destroy each and every one of the above mentioned boobs if video evidence means anything at all.
Do you have a link to the Cheung fight? I have not see it but only heard about it. I saw the clip of the Taiji and White Crane guy.
Gangsterfist
03-31-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Vash
EBMAS? Not the most fear-inspiring name for a martial art I've ever heard.
I HEREBY DO PUBLICALLY CHALLENGE EMIN BOSTEPE TO A 37-RULE NHB MATCH!!!
LOL!
EBMAS = Every Body Must Allow Sodomy.
True story.
PHILBERT
03-31-2004, 09:37 PM
WanderingMonk, true we must forgive Boztepe for his fight with Cheung. But the thing is, we can't forgive him because people are constantly throwing it in his face. There was alot of heat going on between the WT, VT and Cheung's WC for years. The confrontation between Boztepe and Cheung was just the ultimate show and proof that there were problems.
Wheather or not Boztepe surrounded Cheung is pointless. Cheung claimed he could beat anyone up in the world. So, had he defeated Boztepe, he'd have to fight someone else to prove he could beat them up too. It was inevitable that he'd be called on his challenge.
SevenStar
04-01-2004, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Vash
EBMAS = Every Body Must Allow Sodomy.
True story.
I won't ask how you know...
SanSoo Student
04-01-2004, 02:01 AM
EBMAS...
Emin Boztepe Martial Art System
more like...
EBMBS...
Emin Boztepe Made-up Bullsh!t Sytle. :D
Ultimatewingchun
04-01-2004, 08:12 AM
Again...Boztepe surrounded William Cheung with six of his friends - challenged him - when Cheung said "not during my seminar" and started to walk away from the Boztepe and toward the sixth man on his right...(the smart thing to do)...Boztepe attacked from Cheung's flank...the "fight" lasted about 30 seconds - and although he managed to put Cheing down on the polished and somewhat slippery wooden floor - he landed no solid punches - no submission - they separate...and BOZTEPE MAKES A CAREER OUT OF THIS !?!?!?
What else has he EVER done to prove he's some great fighter? Nothing....He challenged the Gracie's...they accept - he hides...He's been challenged many times by Cheung's students - the latest being Keith Mazza as recently (again) as two years ago - he refuses...HE ALWAYS BACKS OUT...because he's phoney and a coward.
MasterKiller
04-01-2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Again...Boztepe surrounded William Cheung with six of his friends - challenged him - when Cheung said "not during my seminar" and started to walk away from the Boztepe and toward the sixth man on his right...(the smart thing to do)...Boztepe attacked from Cheung's flank...the "fight" lasted about 30 seconds - and although he managed to put Cheing down on the polished and somewhat slippery wooden floor - he landed no solid punches - no submission - they separate...and BOZTEPE MAKES A CAREER OUT OF THIS !?!?!? From what I understand, the fight lasted about 2 minutes and the video is not the complete fight. It does not show Cheung put EB in a headlock.
red5angel
04-01-2004, 10:08 AM
true we must forgive Boztepe for his fight with Cheung
How about his claim of 400+ street fights? You'd think a guy would have a scar or two from all those fights? how about forgiving him for constantly not wearing a shirt, doesn't the guy get cold?
I'm with Ultimatewingchun, the guy ambushed him, pretty pathetic.
Face2Fist
04-01-2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
anyone have a link to thsi boztepe's website at all?
http://www.ebmas.net/
Ultimatewingchun
04-01-2004, 10:16 AM
Well if there's more to this fight than the 30 seconds or so that Boztepe has been showing the world via video for the last 18 years...THEN WHERE IS IT ?
Why has it been edited? To avoid having the ambush aspect of it being seen...perhaps?
Again...Boztepe is a phoney.
Face2Fist
04-01-2004, 10:20 AM
28 secs of the emin vs william vid
http://www.ebmas.net/video/emin-vs-cheung.mpeg
MasterKiller
04-01-2004, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Well if there's more to this fight than the 30 seconds or so that Boztepe has been showing the world via video for the last 18 years...THEN WHERE IS IT ?
Why has it been edited? To avoid having the ambush aspect of it being seen...perhaps?
Again...Boztepe is a phoney. Yeah, that's what I understand. Boztepe edited the tape.
apoweyn
04-01-2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by MasterKiller
Nope. I'm all for fighter safety. But, if you have 30 things you can't do, it's not no-holds-barred, now is it?
If you're going to be a literalist about it, though, are eye pokes, biting, and groin shots really "holds"?
MasterKiller
04-01-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by apoweyn
If you're going to be a literalist about it, though, are eye pokes, biting, and groin shots really "holds"? Literalist? No need to get snappy. The spirit of NHB is that anything goes, right? Well, if some things do not go, it's not NHB. I'm talking semantics here, sure, but it irks me the same way when the MMA crowd says they spar 100%, but really mean 60-90%.
apoweyn
04-01-2004, 11:29 AM
Relax mate. I wasn't being terribly serious.
We could call it SHB.
SHB = Some Ho's Beg
True story.
apoweyn
04-01-2004, 01:10 PM
I was thinking Some Holds Barred.
I guess that would fit, too.
I'd like to see a Some Ho's Beg event in place of a Some Hold's Barred scrap, though.
MasterKiller
04-01-2004, 02:13 PM
Very
Annoying
****
Head
Originally posted by MasterKiller
Very
Annoying
****
Head
:eek: :( :mad:
Masturbating
Another
Stranger
to
Elicit
Real
Knowledge
Involving
Licking
Large
Excited
Rectums
I win!
rubthebuddha
04-01-2004, 10:18 PM
well, this thread went from emin being challenged by some ****ing no-name twat to uwc denouncing emin being a bum for showing up with a bunch of cronies when someone else was teaching with violence on the mind to vash and mk attempting skill with acronyms ... and failing.
i won't defend emin's behavior. quite frankly, no one needs to defend it other than emin. anyone who thinks it's wrong -- feel free to make value judgments, just make sure your own behavior is clean, and that something that happened 18 years ago during which no one was actually hurt is of decent enough significance to get your skivvies in a wad.
and if you think emin can't fight, i guess all i can suggest is that you grow a pair and prove it. anyone that's actually worked with him knows he has great skill. he may not be the best fighter on the planet, but $20 says he's better than anyone who bothers to put up and fight him.
Firstly, I feel that my acronyms showed mad skillz. Or something to that effect.
Second, Emin's probably got skillz. However, his personality makes it hard to care.
I'd love to see him scrap with a couple of the Gracies, or anyone who've challenged him (the names people know, I mean).
red5angel
04-02-2004, 07:50 AM
I would never say that Emin can't fight, he has a lot of athletic skill, and has been studying for a while. I know some of his top guys are weak, and I'm not impressed wit the way they have approached trying to make wingchun more effective. They did add some grappling work, that's cool, but if I see one more EBMAS or WT idiot firing off straight punches like there's no tomorrow I'm going to kill someone. not only is that "straigt blast" overrated, it sounds more like something I do to NP's girl on a saturday night then a fighting term.
David Jamieson
04-02-2004, 08:07 AM
I would also say that vash defended himself heroically seeing as MK did toss the first turd. :D
Thanks for digging up that pathetic video.
As I've said before the soundtrack goes sometyhing like:
WC:"my shoooooeees, my shoooooeees, floor so **** slippy ahhhhhhh ahhhhhha hhhhhhhh ahhhhhh"
EB: get down there, ok, now who's your daddy?! Who's your dadddy!!!??, ok hold on one sec here while i sit on your arm and G&P ya"
WC "mmmmphhh, slippy! Ahhhhhh! mmmpphh"
I reiterate, that is right up there with "White Crane vs Wu Tai chi"
:rolleyes:
:p
Ultimatewingchun
04-02-2004, 08:54 AM
$20 says Boztepe is better than anyone who puts up and fights him?
How can that be? He won't fight anybody! He always backs down when it happens that someone wants a piece of him...that is...someone who he knows can fight....or who is not alone when he and his boys get there.
MasterKiller
04-02-2004, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
I would also say that vash defended himself heroically seeing as MK did toss the first turd. :D Yeah, well, I didn't have 5 1/2 hours to come up with a retort. :rolleyes:
David Jamieson
04-02-2004, 09:19 AM
Yeah, well, I didn't have 5 1/2 hours to come up with a retort. :rolleyes:
well, now your 25 hours behind and it won't be any good at all to come up with one. lol.
jus watching the clip id say that grandmaster cheung
took the worse of it.
emin popped one in his ribs - took him to the floor
then proceeded to control and g+p for a while
(not doin much damage tho to be fair)
then he got up.
not much in it really - except wc didnt claim he was
the man anymore.
maybe emin dont fight cause mission was accomplished.
Dang, MK. I owned on you pretty good, but I think Kung Lek got one even better on you.
lol.
Ultimatewingchun
04-02-2004, 10:12 AM
The only mission that Bozteoe accomplished was that he covinced a lot of people that was "somebody"...even though it was an ambush that proved NOTHING in terms of a real fight...(because it was an ambush with no decisive victory)...and he has done NOTHING ever since.
It's been a marketing scam for him....
rubthebuddha
04-02-2004, 11:29 AM
uwc -- who says he won't fight anyone? i'm talking about anyone who bothers to actually go to him. if someone thinks they are better than he is, then why don't they stop talking through magazines, forums, etc. and just go to him to fight him? it's not a difficult concept. if you want to fight someone, GO fight them. period. get off your own ass, travel to them, and fight. don't blather all day about trying to make arrangements. be your own man, get yourself to him and fight him. nice and simple.
emin doesn't say "i can defeat anyone in a ring fight," same as your sifu didn't say it a couple decades ago. ringfighting isn't the goal of either your sifu or emin. rather, they both issued a general statement, "come show me whatchoo got." it's like playing capture the flag -- each of them holds a certain swank, and if anyone wants it, they can come and get it themselves like a big boy. nice and simple.
consider your own past rumbles. did you advertise them on a forum or magazine, hoping to garner attention and public praise? didn't think so. you just went, duked it out, then went home and had your dinner. nice and simple.
this guy wants to capture what emin has (attention, for whatever that's worth), so why the hell won't he just be a man and go do it? why does he need to make it into a spectacle? because he's an attention ***** (http://www.alcofielen.com/pics/forumpics/peopleSUCK/attention/lookatme.jpg). ;)
red5angel
04-02-2004, 11:32 AM
rub, I mostly agree with your assessment, however, Mr. Bobo does do a lot of travelling, and it might be much easier for him to take a little side trip then for others. ;)
rubthebuddha
04-02-2004, 11:49 AM
yeah, it would be, but i sincerely doubt emin cares much about making arrangements easier on some asswrinkle who has balls so enormously huge that he makes a challenge on an internet forum. ;)
red5angel
04-02-2004, 11:53 AM
He's had challenges from more official sources, and he has never really followed up on his challenge to the gracies. Bsides, for a man who has 400+ fights under his belt, you'd think a few on video where he could prove his stuff works might be welcome....
rubthebuddha
04-02-2004, 12:11 PM
i'll leave the videotaping up to his ebmas folks. as far as i know, the gracie thing was a lack of follow-up on both sides. they each wanted the fight on their own ground. in kudos to each side, neither said, "now, no eye gouging," "and no small joint locking," and so on. but they didn't seem to think such a fight was really all that significant. no gracie thought it was important enough drive across town, and emin didn't think it was important enough either. c'est la vie, and there's little to be done about it now.
i guess my point is that, if it's so important for someone to kick someone else's ass, just go kick their ass. if it's not important enough to actually travel to them, then shut the **** up. all the other promotion stuff serves no purpose other than to call attention to your attention-whoring ass.
Ultimatewingchun
04-02-2004, 08:39 PM
rubthebuddha:
You make some good points...The challenge that this thread started out alluding to is basically stupid - too many rules...Now regarding just going to see Boztepe if one wants to fight him...as far back as 1996 Keith Mazza (TWC) let it be known he wanted to fight Boztepe - no reply. It was brought up twice that I know of since then - with some back and forth talk - still nothing definite....Then, about 1.5 - 2 years ago Keith was visiting Eric Oram's TWC school in the L.A. area - and on a whim they got into Eric's car and drove to Boztepe's school...unannounced...Keith was determined to fight him this day - they got there - it was closed...nobody there....and that's the end of it.
For now.
P.S. - Do you really believe that Boztepe has had 400 fights?
If you do....I've got a bridge back here in Brooklyn I'd like you to take a look at.
rubthebuddha
04-03-2004, 12:04 AM
uwc -- thanks. as far as any recent stuff, i know nada about mazza or any recent challenges. mayhap emin has such a crazy seminar schedule so he's never actual home to answer challenges, who knows. ;)
and no, i don't buy the 400 fights. i'm not calling him a liar, but numbers have a tendency to rise as the story gets retold. five years ago, the number was around 250-300 or so. since it's not like there's an actual professional record like tito or bas carry with them, it's easy for the estimates to grow. rounding numbers can do amazing things for one's success stories.
when i was in college, i benched around 300 for three reps.
actually, it was in the 250s i think, but i can't remember the exact weight, because of the bar, the plates, the collars, etc., so i rounded up. ;)
regardless, i have no question about emin's skills. however, while skills are not the only thing about a person one can question, i have no desire to go that route. this thread was about a chump challenging emin. since you, a senior student of william cheung, and me, a happy member of leung ting's family, just agreed on something, i suggest we call it a day and watch ourselves, just in case hell actually DID freeze over. :D
David Jamieson
04-03-2004, 04:37 AM
Actually as i read that post from the guy in denmark, i start to think it is a joke anyway.
:D
Anyway, Canada is challenging Denmark for possession of some little chunk of rock and ice floating around in teh North Atlantic.
If they don't give it up, Canada will ktfo Denmark and we don't care if their army s better equipped than ours is. We train harder!
Give us back our rock you danish bast ards!
SimonW
04-03-2004, 05:52 AM
I think the Danes challenge says more about his inadequacy than anyone elses. Further, if they were that bothered about really fighting Emin they would go to him, not expect him to go to all the hassle of travelling overseas for the sake of a fight. Why should he? I don't agree with what Emin did to William Cheung, however at least he went to the trouble of doing all the travelling himself instead of making an empty challenge from many miles away.
In addition to this the Dane points out that one of the ways to win is by disqualification. Does this mean that all Emin has to do to win is to spit on his opponent?
LEGEND
04-03-2004, 05:11 PM
Look...Emin has BACKED OUT on many many challenges...he just won't fight anyone end of story.
Emin challenged Gracie.
Royce accepts and says let's do it in the UFC.
Emin says but I don't want to do it in the UFC=no honor in front of PPV.
Rorion decides to hold it at a neutral location.
A police station where Gene Lebel sometime teaches.
Emin sends the Gracie a letter from an attorney saying he's afraid of getting arrested( HUH??? ).
Royce calls Emin a JOKE in Blackbelt mag.
End of story!
Bas Rutten and Marco Ruas goes to Emin school.
Sherdog.com contains Bas statements.
Bas heard that Emin was badmouthing him.
He goes there with Ruas and Emin says he didn't do it.
No fight.
Situation squashed.
Remco Pardoel hears Emin talks crap about him.
Remco leads a small group of JUDO/Kickboxers to Emin school.
Remco had recently undergone knee surgery.
One of the kickboxers challenge Emin.
Emin says no.
Situation squashed.
SanSoo Student
04-04-2004, 03:25 AM
I wonder what would happen if someone like Royce started to puch Emin, and make fun of his momma. Would that push the pu$$y to fight? :D
SimonW
04-04-2004, 05:49 AM
I don't care if Emin has refused challenges, chickened out or whatever. I simply meant to say that the Dutch guy, if he is really that desperate to challenge he should take the fight to Emin.
My own personal opinion is that challenge matches such as this are comical and brought about and egged on by people with fragile egos who really should have more constructive things to do with their time.
Why do so many people talk so bad about Emin Boztepe? What has he done wrong?
Why do so many people talk so bad about Emin Boztepe? What has he done wrong?
Did you read LEGEND's post? :p That's big reason so many people don't like him... he talks a lot of trash. I think jumping someone at a seminar they're giving is pretty lame too.
Gangsterfist
04-06-2004, 07:58 AM
I just think he is kind of a jerk. I mean who has the audacity to barge into a Grand Master's seminar with some cronies and start a fight? Not only is that real disrespectful, not only to the art, but to its practitioners and the people at the seminar that were there to learn.
Not to mention when you get that high in the system where you reach the master level and people refer to you as master, then it is definately not your place to answer challenges. From my understanding when a challenge is issued, it is always customary for a student to accept it first. Not that I am saying challenges are okay.
I mean what does this guy have to prove? Whats his major malfunciton here? I don't understand the point of it.
Seriously, why even have this thread? I think it was just a ploy to get his name out and it worked. We are chatting about him in an internet forum. So lets just let it be and forget about him. That is the best idea IMO.
emin acted in response to william cheungs aggressive marketing
at the time.
who knows exactly what the deal was but there was some sh1t goin on between yip man students.
6 of one half dozen of the other
cheung ended up on his a$$ and emin ended up gettin some stick for it.
no biggy besides it was frickin years ago! give the guy a break
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In reply of the William Cheung Interview Feb 1996 Mitcham Kwoon.
The following letter appears in Martial Arts Magazines
VING TSUN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION LTD
3, Nullah Rd., 2C/fl., Kowloon,
Hong Kong Tel 3-816044
Dear Sir,
RE: Point Three of the minutes of the 11th General Meeting
Recently we have received many letters and complaints about a person
called William Cheung who has distorted many affairs with ulterior motive.
As the board of directors of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association -- the
general association of the WHOLE Ving Tsun (Wing Tsun / Wing Chun) system,
which was founded by the late Grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior
students since 1976, we have the responsibility to clarify the following
points:
1/ William Cheung has NEVER been regarded by anyone of his fellow-students
as the grandmaster or the leader of the whole Wing Chun Clan.
2/ NOBODY is recognized as the so-called "No 1 student of Grandmaster
Yip Man" and we have NEVER heard of William Cheung as the "No. 1 Fighter
of the Wing Chun Style".
3/ "Footwork" in the Wing Chun System is regarded as a most advanced
technique. We do not deny that some of the students of Grandmaster
Yip Man did not learn the whole system, but it is NOT TRUE that
William Cheung is the ONLY person to have ever learnt the entire
Wing Chun System" as what he announced in his advertisement.
4/ There have NEVER been any techniques in our system called "DIM-MAK" or
"Disabling Pressure Points", NOR any so-called "Missing Techniques" since
the creation of the Wing Chun System by Ng Mui.
5/ When Grandmaster Yip Man taught the techniques to his students he asked
NO-ONE "to take an oath not to reveal the secret to anyone during his life
time." He taught according to the potential of his students, teaching
the most advanced techniques to the most talented ones.
In the mid of 50's there had been a kid called William Cheung who had studied
in Grandmaster Yip Man's school for a few years intermittently and left
Hong Kong when he was 18 years old, and since then had become isolated from
his instructor and all the other fellow-students. During his short training
he surely gained the wrong impression in thinking that Grandmaster Yip Man
never taught the advanced techniques to students other than himself. And yet
we do not know how much William Cheung really learned himself.
It is regrettable that his lies have gone so far (i.e he told the
reporters that Grandmaster Yip Man had taught only him the so-called
"traditional Wing Chun", but had taught all his other students the
"modified Wing Chun").
However, any average person could easily analyze his techniques and see
this statement must be a lie. It is unthinkable that Grandmaster Yip Man
would choose to cheat all the students except one impudent kid, who actually
had little respect for him!
We feel sorry to have such an ignorant person in out clan, We want
to establish our position: we have NEVER AGREED with his Crazy
self-promotion, though we do understand his motive in casting himself as the
"Superman" in the William Cheung's Wing Chun System.
Yours faithfully,
The Board Of Directors and Attendance in the meeting of clarification
the distored affairs.
Wong Shun Leung (Chairman)
Leung Ting (Vice Chairman)
Tong Chao Chi (Vice Chairman)
Lok Yiu (President)
Yip Ching (Vice President)
Ho Kam Ming (Vice President)
Siu Yuk Man (Secretary)
Chan Tak Chiu (Treasurer)
Tsui Sheung Tim (Membership Management)
Koo Sang (Membership Management)
Lee Wai Chi (Public Relation)
Victor Kan (attendance)
Yip Chun (attendance)
not actually sure how reliable this transcripts are......
William Cheung's response to a letter from the
leading masters of Wing Chun. This version comes from Australasian fighting Arts
Vol 10 nr 3.
************************************************** ******************
Firstly, I want to point out that the statement by the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association in their letter that the "the association was founded by the late
grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior student since 1976" is not true,
because Yip Man died in 1971. So he couldn't have founded the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association in 1976 as claimed.
I shall attempt to answer their letter point by point:
(1) I am the leader of the Traditional Wing Chun because I am the only person
who inherited the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. Furthermore, I also
know the modified version thoroughly, and know that it is inferior to the
Traditional system. I therefore proclaim myself the Grandmaster of the
Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. If anyone does not think so, he can come and
see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.
(2) I was the only person that Grandmaster Yip Man chose to carry on the
whole Traditional Wing Chun system. I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun
Style. This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many
famous masters of other styles. I anyone needs proof, I would only be too
pleased to oblige.
(3) Nobody - I say nobody - was taught the traditional Wing Chun footwork but
me. I Leung Ting and company knew it, they would be showing their students. It
is like the case of the Bil Jee form. Nobody knew the proper form except me
and that is why they have been telling people that the Bil Jee form was too
dangerous even to show it; in order to cover up the fact that they don't know
it. I was the first WEing Chun master to put Bil Jee in a book so that
everyone can learn the correct version.
(4)Dim Mak or disabling Pressure Point Techniques was passed on to me, along
with the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. If you have read my article on
the subject you might understand how it works. However, ther is no medicine for
ignorance; Leung Ting and company deny the existence because they don't know
it. At least this time they admit their ignorance. My book on Dim Mak, or
Disabling Pressure Point Techniques, will be on the market soon. Keep your
eyes open. In china there is a Kung Fu monk who could stand upside down on one
or two hands. Some people can break a half dozen inch boards with a punch.
Maybe there are people who can stand on a dozen eggs. I can stand on two
without breaking them. All these can be called tricks if you like, but the
fact is that I am still "the best Wing Chun Fighter". I dare anyone to prove
otherwise.
(5) It is irrelevant to argue whether Yip Man had made be take an oath before
he taught me the complete Traditional Wing Chun System, because no-one else
was privileged to witness it. The fact is, that after 36 years of training in
Wing Chun, I have the confidence to say that I am the most knowledgeable
master in the Wing Chun System and I am the best fighter, and I am willing to
prove it to them at any time, anywhere. Unlike Leung Ting and company, as
shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that
none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none
of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't look
very impressive!
In the 50's I was a kid . . . so was Bruce Lee . . . full of enthusiasm and
energy. We learned Wing Chun together and we were determined to make a name
for Wing Chun and ourselves. And we did. In the 50's Leung Ting was still "in
his diapers". He didn't learn Wing Chun until the 1960's from Leung Chun,(Yip
Man's student) of his own admission. He is one generation behind Bruce and me.
However, according to the article published in "Secrets of Kung Fu" Vol 2
1977, hundred of Kung Fu masters in Hong Kong - including Leung Chun, Yip
Shun, Tsui Sheng tin, and Wong Shun Leung - denounced Leung Ting in very
strong terms (I have enclosed copies) Leung Shun was reportedly saying that
Leung Ting wasn't learning from him, but from his student Jah Bak. This makes
Leung Ting two generation behind Bruce Lee and I.
And Leung Ting's claim that he was Yip Man's closed door student is on what
grounds? In the 60's, Yip Man was a heavy drug user, and did not enjoy very
good health. There was no way that Yip Man could have taught anyone in that
state of health. Even his own sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, who came to Hong
Kong in the 1960's, had to be content to train with Yip Man's senior students.
Wing Chun is a system which was developed for one to be able to master in
three to four years. Grandmaster Yip Man, from age of twelve to sixteen,
learned four years part time the modified version of Wing Chun with Chan Wah
Shun and, from age 17, he learned 2 years traditional Wing Chun from Leung Buk
(Leung Jung's son) in Hong Kong. Wong Shun Leung only learned modified Wing
Chun for three years part time and he began teaching in early 1955. Loh Liu
probably started teaching after only 2 years part time training in the
modified version.
I studied Wing Chun for 4 and one half years part time in the modified
version, and then 2 and one half years full time in the traditional version,
when I was living with Yip Man. I learned the modified version as well as the
traditional version. After I completed my learning, I have continued to
practice for a further 28 years, and I still practice daily.
From these factors you can see that I am the most qualified practitioner in
both modified and traditional versions of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I proclaim myself
the most knowledgeable master and the best fighter in the whole Wing Chun
style.
I would like to close off with a very famous Chinese proverb : "Practicing
Kung Fu is like paddling upstream - if you don't go forward, you must go
backward, and seldom you stay in the same spot". It is no surprise to find the
whole group in the printed photo appear to have gone so far backward that I
would be ashamed to be associated with them.
William Cheung
Grandmaster
************************************************** ************************
(The photo he refers to has in it Leung Ting, Wong Shun Leung, Tong Chao Chi,
Lok Yiu, Yip Ching, Ho Kam Ming, Siu Yuk Man, Chan Tak Chiu, Tsui Shun Tin,
Lee Wai Chi, Victor Kan, and Yip Chun. He also supplied a photo of himself
as a child in the same room as Yip Man)
Gangsterfist
04-06-2004, 08:51 AM
I have heard that william chueng was one of YM's last and youngest students. I also heard he had the least amount of time with YM. From my knowledge Ho Kam Ming spent the last 14 or 15 years of Yip Man's life with him, and even carried him to his death bed. However I do remember this slogan from Yip Man himself
Hands and feet move accordingly, there are no secret or unblockable techniques
So, I would guess that Yip Man probably never taught anyone "secret techniques" or left out the complete system and only taught it to a few. They admitted that not every student learned the complete system, but also implied that a lot did.
Even if all that was true from those transcripts, Emin should not have barged in that seminar and started a fight. That is extremely disrespectful. The matter should be handled by the VING TSUN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION LTD that is their duty, not Emin's.
I do not mean any disrespect to any wing chun practitioner, this is just what I have gathered from talking to different sifus about lineage, and even then I take it with a grain of salt because I really don't know what is true and what is not.
Ray Pina
04-06-2004, 10:14 AM
I agree with you 100% on the respect issues. What he did was disgraceful.
But a master -- if still in fighting form (55 or younger) -- should handle any challenges directed at his school. My teacher is 63 and still insists on playing will all comers. I'm hoping I can get good enough to stand in someday, but now the man beats me badly.
I think it's bad form the way a lot of schools do it. You go to play and they have you play with 3 brown belts, 2 black belts AND THEN the teacher will cross hands with you when you can barely tie your shoe from exhaustion.
Master means master, not been at it too long I'm too old to fight.
But in general all this back and forth by the big names is about ego and publicity. Everyone doesn't have to know. Just go to the guy's school. And in Bas case, that man has proven himself. I'm surprised he even takes Emin seriously.
Originally posted by Brad
Did you read LEGEND's post? :p That's big reason so many people don't like him... he talks a lot of trash. I think jumping someone at a seminar they're giving is pretty lame too.
Talks a lot of trash? Like what? :confused:
Jumping someone at a seminar? What are you talking about? If you are refering to the fight between William Cheung and Emin Boztepe, Boztepe was just accepting they challenge made by Cheung. What's lame with that?
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I just think he is kind of a jerk. I mean who has the audacity to barge into a Grand Master's seminar with some cronies and start a fight? Not only is that real disrespectful, not only to the art, but to its practitioners and the people at the seminar that were there to learn.
Do you know Emin Boztepe? Have even meet him once? If you are basing your opinion about him on hearsays on the internet about his fight with the self-proclaimed grandmaster William Cheung. I can't see nothing wrong with accepting a challenge when the opportunity comes. Boztepe traveled to Cheung's seminar and accepted the challenge "prove it to them at any time, anywhere". Boztepe had the chance to defend his teachers and the late Bruce Lee's hounor so he took the chance. I personally think that Cheung got what he asked for.
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Even if all that was true from those transcripts, Emin should not have barged in that seminar and started a fight. That is extremely disrespectful. The matter should be handled by the VING TSUN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION LTD that is their duty, not Emin's.
Emin Boztepe was the front figure of the EWTO during that time, could it not be that Leung Ting asked him to accept the challenge?
Gangsterfist
04-06-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by imx
Do you know Emin Boztepe? Have even meet him once? If you are basing your opinion about him on hearsays on the internet about his fight with the self-proclaimed grandmaster William Cheung. I can't see nothing wrong with accepting a challenge when the opportunity comes. Boztepe traveled to Cheung's seminar and accepted the challenge "prove it to them at any time, anywhere". Boztepe had the chance to defend his teachers and the late Bruce Lee's hounor so he took the chance. I personally think that Cheung got what he asked for.
1.3
__________________________
There is a time and a place to fight someone in challenge matches. Jumping someone at their seminar is disrespectful and a disgrace to the wing chun community. If you think otherwise then that is your business, we can only agree to disagree.
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
And in Bas case, that man has proven himself. I'm surprised he even takes Emin seriously.
Why shouldn't he?
Merryprankster
04-06-2004, 01:35 PM
http://www.noholdsbarred.tv/cheung-boztepe.WMV
and then...
http://216.40.244.4/highlights/15-BasRuttenHQ.zip
for why bas doesn't have to take emin boztepe seriously.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
http://www.noholdsbarred.tv/cheung-boztepe.WMV
and then...
http://216.40.244.4/highlights/15-BasRuttenHQ.zip
for why bas doesn't have to take emin boztepe seriously.
Ohh Bas Rutten can fight in a ring with a judge and during timed rounds. What's your point? Please elaborate. :D
Gangsterfist
04-06-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by imx
Ohh Bas Rutten can fight in a ring with a judge and during timed rounds. What's your point? Please elaborate. :D
I give that one a 2.5
Jumping someone at a seminar? What are you talking about? If you are refering to the fight between William Cheung and Emin Boztepe, Boztepe was just accepting they challenge made by Cheung. What's lame with that?
Emin wasted the time of people who paid money to be taught some Wing Chun. Instead they got to see two grown men roll around on the floor in a bad wrestling imitation ;) I think Emin lost as much respect in the martial arts community as William Chung from that video.
Lol at his homepage: http://www.ebmas.net/ "Wing Tzun Legend" talk about an ego ;) :D
Ultimatewingchun
04-06-2004, 08:14 PM
Okay...Let me get back into this...
Boztepe came to Cheung's seminar in Germany and has six of his friends surround him...then the challenge is issued...on a polished and somewhat slippery wooden floor after Cheung had changed into the Chinese slippers (that Bruce lee made famous in his movies)...Cheung tells Bozo to wait until after my seminar is over and starts to walk away (toward the last guy on his right)...Boztepe attacks from the left and gets kicked away...attacks again and gets put into a headlock (Cheung does not want this fight on German soil as he fears police repercussions so he tries to neutralize the attack by the much bigger Bozo with a simple headlock)...Boztepe manages to trip him up (with help from the wooden floor) and puts him down - trying feverishly now to pin Cheung's shulders down with his knees while trying to punch...does not land one solid punch...and after about 30 seconds Cheung kicks him off - they separate...Cheung is back on his feet and Bozo takes his friends and his video camera and leaves....edits the film to exclude the ambush quality of his six friends surrounding Cheung and to exclude Bozo getting kicked - and the nonchalent way Cheung catches him in a headlock on his second attack....
then tries to make a phoney career out of this bulls#it cowardly event...and in recent years he challenges the Gracie's and backs out when they accept...backs out from Rutten and Ruas when they get wind of his bulls#it trash talk...and claims he's had 400 fights...I don't even believe the 200 claim...but whatever the number is - Who are these people he's fought?
Is it any wonder that as time goes on and more and more people have joined William Cheung's World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association AFTER spending years doing other wing chun systems and seeing that there really is a HUGE difference in the footwork, Bil Jee, dim mak, and just about everything else - and that the result is that the Traditional Wing Chun system really is something special...while Boztepe has gone the other way into being something of a laughing stock?
Has it gone unnoticed that Boztepe has done basically nothing all these years while saying everything...as an attempt to promote his image? What image?
What has he ever done to gain respect?
If he had any class at all he would make a public apology to William Cheung for the ambush and the bulls#it video and keep a low profile from here on out.
Didn't Chueng have an anywhere anytime open challenge out there?
Ultimatewingchun
04-06-2004, 09:13 PM
Brad:
I'm sure you read the letter that Cheung wrote which was posted on this thread - so the answer is - yes...he did say anytime, anywhere.
The fact that he was surrounded by a total of seven people obviously gave him second thoughts about living up to it "to the letter".
Okay...fine.
But let me throw this out there, then...Did Boztepe challenge Cheung and was turned down?
And then felt the need to surround him so that he had to accept a second challenge?
No....to both questions.
If someone makes an open public challenge (as Cheung did)...then why not make an open and public acceptance of that challenge?
Why just show up totally out of nowhere and surround the man with six of your friends?
Is that a fair fight?....Challenge for challenge?
Or is that a cowardly act of trying to stack the deck?
LEGEND
04-06-2004, 09:35 PM
I use to train within William Cheung Association in 92...I will say i heard both sides. I don't care to much about EMIN vs. WILLIAM. I simply don't take anyone over age 50 seriously throwing out challenges and proclaiming they are the best. Emin has regretted his action in regards to fighting or jumping William Cheung. But the point is...he has been implicated in other challenges that he has BACKED OUT OF. Why talk the talk when u can't walk the walk? In terms of his instructional ability...I give him credit cause I've heard good things.
I'm sure you read the letter that Cheung wrote which was posted on this thread - so the answer is - yes...he did say anytime, anywhere.
Actually, I haven't read most of this thread at all ;) I do think I read the letter before a long time ago.
Anyway, yes I do think it was cowardly on Emin's part, but I don't particularly feel any sympathy towards William Cheung either. He brought it on himself with that letter, and expecting an appology would be rather dumb.
Simon
04-06-2004, 11:52 PM
is this the most exciting thing to happen in Wing Chun in the last 18 years?
I think its a pity that there are not more media for Beimo/Gong sao for the highly trained, within Wing Chun and without. It wouldn't have to be about ego's and lineages (though I'm probably dreaming there! :D )
More talk and less action leads to greater division in my (young) eyes. everyone has their opinion.
CaptinPickAxe
04-06-2004, 11:53 PM
regardless if Cheung was jumped or not, that video show that Cheung has no ground game. He looked like a cat playing with a ball of yarn. I'm not bashing his Striking, but his ground game leaves something to be desired.
I was watching the Dragon Fest videos on Boztepe's site and noticed that they are sped up. Another case of editing magic.
What a dumb ass.
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
1.3
__________________________
There is a time and a place to fight someone in challenge matches. Jumping someone at their seminar is disrespectful and a disgrace to the wing chun community. If you think otherwise then that is your business, we can only agree to disagree.
Then Cheung shouldn't have used the words "I am the best fighter, and I am willing to prove it to them at any time, anywhere." . That's my opinion. :)
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I give that one a 2.5
Well thank you. Unlike some people I try to contribute with contructive criticism to the discussion, after all this is a discussion board.
Originally posted by Brad
Lol at his homepage: http://www.ebmas.net/ "Wing Tzun Legend" talk about an ego ;) :D
hehe, well like William Cheung they both have their "own" style and therefore they can call them selves whatever they wish for, Grandmaster, WingTzun legend .. you name it.
Knifefighter
04-07-2004, 07:03 AM
All I know is that if I was "the best", as Cheung was claiming to be, and someone happend to get an unfair advantage againts me (slippery floor, a bunch of compatriots, etc), I would be sure to get a rematch somewhere down the line.
If Cheung really was the best, the fact that he never managed to do this probably cost him tons of money in the long run. Of course if they did have a rematch and it was as bad as the first fight looked in the video, they both would have been assured of having quite a bit less seminar and teaching income over the years.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Okay...Let me get back into this...
Boztepe came to Cheung's seminar in Germany and has six of his friends surround him...then the challenge is issued...on a polished and somewhat slippery wooden floor after Cheung had changed into the Chinese slippers (that Bruce lee made famous in his movies)...Cheung tells Bozo to wait until after my seminar is over and starts to walk away (toward the last guy on his right)...Boztepe attacks from the left and gets kicked away...attacks again and gets put into a headlock (Cheung does not want this fight on German soil as he fears police repercussions so he tries to neutralize the attack by the much bigger Bozo with a simple headlock)...Boztepe manages to trip him up (with help from the wooden floor) and puts him down - trying feverishly now to pin Cheung's shulders down with his knees while trying to punch...does not land one solid punch...and after about 30 seconds Cheung kicks him off - they separate...Cheung is back on his feet and Bozo takes his friends and his video camera and leaves....edits the film to exclude the ambush quality of his six friends surrounding Cheung and to exclude Bozo getting kicked - and the nonchalent way Cheung catches him in a headlock on his second attack....
Like most things there are often different versions of what happened. I assume you wrote Cheungs version. I have to point out that Cheungs version unlike Emin Boztepe's has changed a lot since the fight occured; first he slipped because of the slippery floor and his kung fu shoes, then he was attacked from behind after that he also claims that he didn't even got hit. So if you don't question everything you read, the world would be a lot different today.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
then tries to make a phoney career out of this bulls#it cowardly event...and in recent years he challenges the Gracie's and backs out when they accept...backs out from Rutten and Ruas when they get wind of his bulls#it trash talk...and claims he's had 400 fights...I don't even believe the 200 claim...but whatever the number is - Who are these people he's fought?
Again you base your opinions merely on hearsays. As for the Gracie incident, both of them couldn't agree on anything, that's why the fight never occured. Just read all of the transcripts; http://groups.google.com/groups?q=chain+of+letters+from+emin+boztepe&hl=sv&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=4vb2q8%242ou%40fu-berlin.de&rnum=2
Emin Boztepe never challenged Bas Rutten, from the Sherdog forum:
"About Emin Boztepe
Hey guys, just came back yesterday from PA.
Just got a call from Emin Boztepe, since he and I are on talking terms. He is on his way to the airport for a two week Holiday or seminar and he asked me if I could say here on the forum that this guy who claims he's Emin, is NOT him.
Listen, he so called challenged ME to one time, so I went over to his school when he had a seminar. Together with Marco Ruas, a writer for Black Belt, a lawyer so that he could sign a weaver and the district attorny from LA, to take on the challenge that he so called made.
When I stepped in his class and told him that I was there for his challenge, he told me that he never challenged me, I said that I read it in an article in a Dutch magazine, we went to his office and called the guy who made that article (from Holland). The guy made everything up, totall bull****, we were all there and every body heard it because we put the guy on speaker phone.
After that incident I told Emin to always call me, and I would do the same if there came rumors again.
Now, he split with his old organisation and he thinks that those people are using his name here on the forum and try to stirr everything up.
His exact words on the phone with me where " I am a peacefull person and don't want all this crap, if they want to fight me, OK, but I didn't challenge anybody, why would I, I am having a great life".
This is what he told me 10 minutes ago and again, because he's on his way to the aiport and will be gone for two weeks, he cannot respond and he asked me to do that for him.
Well, here it is.
BTW, I won't answer anything on this anymore, bacause I am loaded with work and have not a lot of time, the time that I am free right now, I like to spend with the family. So please understand that I don't come back to this tread. This month I am home for 8 days totall, so I think you can understand this.
Best wishes,
Bas "
If you do a background check on Emin Boztepe you will find out that he worked as bouncer abd he also competed in different Martial Arts like Turkish Wrestling when he was younger. The numbers vary a lot depending on the source, it's like Rorion Gracie's claim that he is undefeated in over street fights. If any of them ever claimed any of the numbers is up to you to decide, since most that are on the net is just rumors based on hearsays.
[i]Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Is it any wonder that as time goes on and more and more people have joined William Cheung's World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association AFTER spending years doing other wing chun systems and seeing that there really is a HUGE difference in the footwork, Bil Jee, dim mak, and just about everything else - and that the result is that the Traditional Wing Chun system really is something special...while Boztepe has gone the other way into being something of a laughing stock?
Has it gone unnoticed that Boztepe has done basically nothing all these years while saying everything...as an attempt to promote his image? What image?
What has he ever done to gain respect?
If he had any class at all he would make a public apology to William Cheung for the ambush and the bulls#it video and keep a low profile from here on out.
TWC vs EBMAS? I do not know how big the TWC organization is or how many followers it has but I do know that the EBMAS organization is very big, +40 countries with most followers in Europe and the States.
I agree that there are huge diffrences between TWC and LT WT like the dim mak, which I personally never heard that it existed at all in any other Wing Chun linages, from the Great Grand Master Yip Man or any other linages.
Boztepe and as you put it "laughing stock". I have never heard any of his students talk **** about him and have only heard good thing s about him and his seminars, I am looking forward to when he comes to the city where I live.
Boztepe and having done nothing.... I have to say Speculations, You don't seem to know much about him at all , only what your Grand Master William Cheung probably has told you. According to this http://www.cheungswingchun.com/Instr%20Profiles/Ins.VParlati.html he is the successor of Yip Man, well I can tell you that there is no successor of Yip Man.
Why should Boztepe apologize to Cheung? Tell me please. It was not Boztepe who insulted Leung Ting and all the other Wing Chun linages that exist today, and not to mention the late Bruce Lee. talking **** about dead people isn't very nice. before the fight Cheung insulted a lot of people mostly dead people, so no one did anything but when he insulted Boztepe's teacher at that time Boztepe felt that he had to do something. So as I see it Cheung is the one who should apologize, if anyone.
Gangsterfist
04-07-2004, 08:57 AM
Well, both Cheung and Boztepe are arrogant. Cheung says he is the only person to have the complete system of wing chun. Which I am highly skeptical of. Boztepe has the words "Wing Tsun Legend" on his website. LOL, I only know of a few living legends: Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzsky, Bruce Lee (when he was alive) and Johnny Cash (when he was alive). Boztepe is not a legend, he will probably have to die before he becomes a legend, and even then I doubt he will be much of a legend.
So, with William Cheung's claim that only he knows the traditional wing chun (which I find amusing since wing chun by design is not a traditional art) and that Boztepe has been in over 400 street fights (where did this guy live? BAD street USA?) its no surprise they bumped heads.
That video proves nothing of their skills, it just proves that even grown men can act like children in public. I mean how much did that seminar cost? What if Cheung had gotten injured? Then, what? No more seminar, and I would want all my money back. Seminars can get expensive, but they can be very beneficial if you can learn the right material. Plus, you will get to touch hands with a lot of people you would not get the chance to otherwise.
However, no matter what, I still find what Boztepe did unprofessional, disgraceful, and disrespectful to all the wing chun practitioners at that seminar.
Ray Pina
04-07-2004, 09:05 AM
Just read that long list of letters:
Seems to me Boztepe was given every opportunity to fight, an opportunity a lot of people would sacrafice for.
So in the end it's a lot of back and forth but the Gracies have proven not only are they willing to throw down, but can with the best of them. What has Boztepe proven?
I thought the Gracies handled that pretty professionally and with class.
Ultimatewingchun
04-07-2004, 09:28 AM
imx:
Just got done reading the letters sent back and forth concerning the Boztepe/Gracie situation - the link to which...you posted on this thread...
I can't believe that you actually want to use them to defend Boztepe's actions (and lack-of-actions). Boztepe CLEARLY makes a challenge and then backed out of everything.
I invite everybody to read them for themselvs and see what I'm talking about.
SimonW
04-07-2004, 09:42 AM
What does winning the argument either way gain?
I think that this whole issue is a good illustration why it is good martial conduct to be humble. If one makes a claim about being the best it is obvious that it will be called upon at some point.
If all martial styles stopped finding faults in one another, and this also goes for MMA making blanket statements about TMA, the world would be a lot nicer place. But like the idiots who want to start an uprising in Iraq the people who want power, and who must be right at all costs, ruin it for everyone else.
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Well, both Cheung and Boztepe are arrogant. Cheung says he is the only person to have the complete system of wing chun. Which I am highly skeptical of. Boztepe has the words "Wing Tsun Legend" on his website. LOL, I only know of a few living legends: Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzsky, Bruce Lee (when he was alive) and Johnny Cash (when he was alive). Boztepe is not a legend, he will probably have to die before he becomes a legend, and even then I doubt he will be much of a legend.
So, with William Cheung's claim that only he knows the traditional wing chun (which I find amusing since wing chun by design is not a traditional art) and that Boztepe has been in over 400 street fights (where did this guy live? BAD street USA?) its no surprise they bumped heads.
"Wing Tzun Legend", his own style, his followers may call him whatever they want to.
Provide me a link to where Emin Boztepe says that he has won over 400 street fights, it's been while since I read that on a forum. Emin Boztepe has a turkish heritage and he was raised in Germany so most of his street fights probably happened there.
Originally posted by Gangsterfist
That video proves nothing of their skills, it just proves that even grown men can act like children in public. I mean how much did that seminar cost? What if Cheung had gotten injured? Then, what? No more seminar, and I would want all my money back. Seminars can get expensive, but they can be very beneficial if you can learn the right material. Plus, you will get to touch hands with a lot of people you would not get the chance to otherwise.
Have you ever seen a real street fight?
Again Cheung made an open challenge, insulted people etc...
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Just read that long list of letters:
Seems to me Boztepe was given every opportunity to fight, an opportunity a lot of people would sacrafice for.
So in the end it's a lot of back and forth but the Gracies have proven not only are they willing to throw down, but can with the best of them. What has Boztepe proven?
Both parties had opportunities to fight eachother but no one did. You can't just blame it on Boztepe. One of the reasons why Boztepe challenged Rorion Gracie was because the Gracie's where challenging old fighters that couldn't fight anymore and said that they were undefeated, which they were not, just check UFC's early results.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
imx:
Just got done reading the letters sent back and forth concerning the Boztepe/Gracie situation - the link to which...you posted on this thread...
I can't believe that you actually want to use them to defend Boztepe's actions (and lack-of-actions). Boztepe CLEARLY makes a challenge and then backed out of everything.
I invite everybody to read them for themselvs and see what I'm talking about.
As I wrote earlier in this post , both parties had opportunities to fight eachother, both backed out.
I am not training nor have trained EBMAS. I am providing a different view of the events since most of you seem to hate Emin Boztepe becuase of the fight with William Cheung. It is up to the readers to decide what they want to believe in.
CaptinPickAxe
04-07-2004, 01:26 PM
I don't hate him because of his sissy fight with Cheung. I [b]dislike[/i] him because:
1. An ego that is way too big
2. Lackluster videos on his site
3. he made a ****in' docum...wait...mockumentry on himself
4. Uses editing tricks to make him and his students seem godly.
This is reminicant of other schools (which will remain nameless) marketing ploys. I think all of it is publicity stunts to herd in a bunch of geeks who were picked on through out highschool and can't tell the difference between martial arts and interpretive dance. If your in it for the flow, hell, just say so. But NEVER market yourself as the Wing Tsun Legend, make idol challenges, and then back out of them. Its *****, its lame, and its not LEGEND material.
Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I don't hate him because of his sissy fight with Cheung. I [b]dislike[/i] him because:
1. An ego that is way too big
2. Lackluster videos on his site
3. he made a ****in' docum...wait...mockumentry on himself
4. Uses editing tricks to make him and his students seem godly.
This is reminicant of other schools (which will remain nameless) marketing ploys. I think all of it is publicity stunts to herd in a bunch of geeks who were picked on through out highschool and can't tell the difference between martial arts and interpretive dance. If your in it for the flow, hell, just say so. But NEVER market yourself as the Wing Tsun Legend, make idol challenges, and then back out of them. Its *****, its lame, and its not LEGEND material.
Could you provide me som links to the things you mentioned or is it based on hearsays? BTW WingTzun Legend is written on his website, it is not the same thing according to IWTA and EBMAS.
Emin Boztepe is a very respectable martial artist, where I live anyway. EBMAS has , if not more schools just in USA than TWC has worldwide therefore I think he has accomplished much in his life. So just talking **** about him for reasons you can't back up is not contributing with constructive criticsm.
CaptinPickAxe
04-07-2004, 01:50 PM
Check out the Dragonfest clips on his website. You'll see the editing tricks. Also, his mockumentry is on there too. I belive its called "The History of Sifu Emin".
As for the whole challenge fiascos, they are all over this thread. Everything I've said is backed up, seeing how I don't train Wing Tsun, I made my judgments upon the videos on his website, transcripts people posted, and the overall ego portrayed on HIS website. I haven't presented any points that cannot be found on this thread.
BTW WingTzun Legend is written on his website
C'mon, guy this just proves my point about his ego. Its not **** talking either, its information gathered from his website.
Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Check out the Dragonfest clips on his website. You'll see the editing tricks. Also, his mockumentry is on there too. I belive its called "The History of Sifu Emin".
As for the whole challenge fiascos, they are all over this thread. Everything I've said is backed up, seeing how I don't train Wing Tsun, I made my judgments upon the videos on his website, transcripts people posted, and the overall ego portrayed on HIS website. I haven't presented any points that cannot be found on this thread.
C'mon, guy this just proves my point about his ego. Its not sh it talking either, its information gathered from his website.
The dragonfest demo clip looks like a good demo to me. Are you somekind of expert in videoediting? Cause Wing Tzun/
WingTsun / Wing Chun / Ving Tsun and Escrima or any other FMA (Kali, Pekita) usually looks that way when being applied by a good practioner. Just go to a school and experience it yourself if you haven't done that already.
If I may ask what do the so called challenges fiascos prove?
Which website are you refering to? There are many depending on which section.
His ego? I do no think he has made the websites himself so you are practically saying that the webmasters have big egos, Or could it be that they just like their founder? :D
CaptinPickAxe
04-07-2004, 02:12 PM
Don't watch the practioners, watch the crowd for speeding up the footage. Everyone knows that.
I do no think he has made the websites himself so you are practically saying that the webmasters have big egos, Or could be that they just like their founder?
No, but I'm **** sure, Mr. Boztepe wouldn't let his image and name be posted on any old website, therefore he commissioned it. There for adding fuel to the fire of his own ego.
If I may ask what do the so called challenges fiascos prove?
It proves he makes challenges with absoultly no intent to follow through with them. This isn't legend worthy...
Phil Redmond
04-07-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by imx
Do you know Emin Boztepe? Have even meet him once? If you are basing your opinion about him on hearsays on the internet about his fight with the self-proclaimed grandmaster William Cheung. I can't see nothing wrong with accepting a challenge when the opportunity comes. Boztepe traveled to Cheung's seminar and accepted the challenge "prove it to them at any time, anywhere". Boztepe had the chance to defend his teachers and the late Bruce Lee's hounor so he took the chance. I personally think that Cheung got what he asked for.
Cheung traveled to Gremany to do the seminar Emin was there already. So If someone walks up to you sucker punches you as you're turning away you deserve it? A fair fight is where to people square off. Anyone, regardless of skill can be caught off guard. Well, except in kung fu flicks. ;)
Phil Redmond
04-07-2004, 03:06 PM
Gangsterfist wrote:
>>I have heard that william chueng was one of YM's last and youngest students. I also heard he had the least amount of time with YM......<<
William Cheung lived in Yip Man's home for almost 4 years. He went with Yip Man to the opium dens to make sure that the "ladies of the evening" or crooks wouldn't rip him off. Yip Man lived with a woman who had alledgedly had a "sorted" past. Many of the other students didn't like her or her son because of that. Yip Man was happy with her and the young William Cheung accepted her. They were close. You have to be to live with your sifu that long. It's impossible to know what Yip Man taught William Cheung when they lived under the same roof. I'd think that if my student accepted me unconditionally like William Cheung I would really look out for him as well.
LEGEND
04-07-2004, 04:52 PM
Ask Remco Pardoel what happen when he and his crew visited BOTSPE school. It's on SHERDOG.
Gangsterfist
04-07-2004, 06:07 PM
Phil,
Its all debateable and a pointless argument IMO. There are tons of different stories. However, I am now curious on how different the systems are. I am going to send you a PM and ask you a few questions if you don't mind. Check your inbox when you got a sec.
Knifefighter
04-07-2004, 06:12 PM
To participate or not in the early UFC's would pretty much be a no brainer if they invited you to fight. If you were really were the best, it would be stupid not to, as an execeptional performance there could guarantee you a future income in the millions. The Gracies knew this and capitalized on it.
However, if you already had a steady income stream from seminars, videos, etc, a possible loss or sub-par performance (i.e. the BP/Cheung fight) could mean a substantial hit to that income source as this would be seen by millions of people. I could see why BP might not want to compete in the UFC as a loss or bad performance there could really hurt his earning ability.
rogue
04-07-2004, 08:01 PM
Emin and Willy C have a lot in common, they're both full of themselves.
I was the only person that Grandmaster Yip Man chose to carry on the whole Traditional Wing Chun system. I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun Style. This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many famous masters of other styles. I anyone needs proof, I would only be too pleased to oblige. He's the best and got suckered by a punk. If someones is that good you'd think they'd see a setup coming a mile away.
Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Don't watch the practioners, watch the crowd for speeding up the footage. Everyone knows that.
No, but I'm **** sure, Mr. Boztepe wouldn't let his image and name be posted on any old website, therefore he commissioned it. There for adding fuel to the fire of his own ego.
It proves he makes challenges with absoultly no intent to follow through with them. This isn't legend worthy...
Really, I must be blind cause I don't see it, maybe it's just me. The Video looks to me like it usually looks when WT demonstrated.
You are **** sure. :P Websites usually have other purposes than boosting someones ego... besides I can't see nothing wrong with it.
He only made one challenge and if your read the letter between them you will see both had the same opportunities to fight eachother.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Cheung traveled to Gremany to do the seminar Emin was there already. So If someone walks up to you sucker punches you as you're turning away you deserve it? A fair fight is where to people square off. Anyone, regardless of skill can be caught off guard. Well, except in kung fu flicks. ;)
That's Cheung's story. Another one is that Boztepe showed the challenge made by Cheung and counted to three before he attacked. Unless you where there Boztepe's version could also be true.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Gangsterfist wrote:
>>I have heard that william chueng was one of YM's last and youngest students. I also heard he had the least amount of time with YM......<<
William Cheung lived in Yip Man's home for almost 4 years. He went with Yip Man to the opium dens to make sure that the "ladies of the evening" or crooks wouldn't rip him off. Yip Man lived with a woman who had alledgedly had a "sorted" past. Many of the other students didn't like her or her son because of that. Yip Man was happy with her and the young William Cheung accepted her. They were close. You have to be to live with your sifu that long. It's impossible to know what Yip Man taught William Cheung when they lived under the same roof. I'd think that if my student accepted me unconditionally like William Cheung I would really look out for him as well.
I believe that Leung Ting was the last student of Yip Man, since he has the most fotos of him and the Grandmaster. Also according to my sihing Leung Ting also has a video footage of the only WC competiton where Yip Man watched. Another thing is that William Cheung wasn't even on the VING TSUN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION when it was founded by Yip Man.
backbreaker
04-08-2004, 03:27 AM
Wing Tsun legend says it all
red5angel
04-08-2004, 08:09 AM
LEGEND - do you have a link?
The Video looks to me like it usually looks when WT demonstrated.
LOL! Sadly, yes you are correct!
Popeye's dad
04-11-2004, 02:19 AM
GM Cheung has been quoted as saying the challenge was issued to the board members of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association. Not the whole world, not some group of thugs that one of them could come up with. It was a challenge to his fellow peers, to out fight him, and no one stepped up, that says something right there.
When did he do that?
Before or after the fight?
Before or after his response letter to VING TSUN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION LTD?
Where did your read about that?
Why didn't he travel to Hong Kong and challenged them directly?
Howcome he can be so sure that he is the best Wing Chun fighter?
Howcome TWC footwork look useless when compared to other WC linages?
Howcome Yip Man only teached William Cheung the real Wing Chun and not his own sons?
LEGEND
04-11-2004, 06:18 AM
William story keep switching from time to time. Last I heard...he stated that no JUNIOR could challenge a SENIOR. So he refused to fight EMIN. Obvious switchup from the SUCKER PUNCH story. The kung fu shoes slippage which supposely led to William fall to the ground is obvious Bull Shiet. If u look on the video...he got SWEPT! EMIN is embarassed cause he picked a fight with an old man and look pathetic doing it.
SimonW
04-11-2004, 06:56 AM
There's a moral in here, not just related to martial ethics, but as a whole.
People with large ego's should stay out of martial arts. They want to run before they can walk. Emin vs Cheung is a prime example.
Unfotunately as seen by that incident an entire style gets judged by it. And then to make matters worse yet more people who can't use Wing Chun without turning into 'school playground hands' or kickboxing want to start talking big.
Ihave been practising WC for 10 years. I'm no expert. But I'd still like to tell all WC people to keep their mouths shut and just train instead, ie apply the WC principles to life as well as the art.
Ultimatewingchun
04-11-2004, 09:32 AM
Yes...he got swept...and yes...he was losing his footing before the sweep...look at the EDITED tape again...and yes...he did go to Hong Kong and said all that to his peers (before Boztepe)...and yes...the challenge was directed at his peers(before Boztepe)...and yes...TWC is the best footwork that exists within the wing chun/ving tsun/wing tsun world...and yes...Boztepe should be embarassed for the cowardly ambush...the edited tape...the entire LEGEND career being based off that attack...the bulls#it and cowardly way he challenged the Gracie's and then backed out...
and on and on.
This thread is repetitive. This thread is repetitive. This thread is repetitive.
:D
There is a guy (let him be unnamed although many of you know who he is; it's not a secret where in the US I used to live) in the US who claims to be a "true" Shaolin Monk and everything else between Heaven and Earth. Among other things, he has fought over 1.000 bare knuckle fights in China and has won them all! Of course, there are no records of even one fight, but what the heck? He the man.
The local Chinese people always question him about his tall stories and why he is lying to the Americans about his past in such as shameful fashion. He never responds to them, just hangs his head in shame. But the local high school and college kids - and some adults, too! - run around the town spreading these stories all wide-eyed. The stories just build up too, I am sure. And having seen this guy do his kung fu (he always only shows a couple of moves at a time, because he cannot sustain anything believable longer than that), I must say he really is of very low skills. But I give him this though: he can teach. He has produced some decent fighters. He is one of those people who cannot do $hit himself but has an understanding of how to teach. There are plenty of those type of coaches in professional sports, too (well, most of them can do more than just $hit, but many of them are still far removed from the skills of the players they coach; it works or can work perfectly because coaching doesn't always require being able to do everything yourself like you would have the athletes do). Actually, in China he really was a masseur and an aspiring gymnast, so the latter might be of some help.
And this is where martial arts enter the darkness. You just can't tell. Well, it doesn't always matter, either, if the person can teach. But the lie is still there. Compared to any other sports (okay, MAs aren't really sports necessarily, but..), there is absolutely no question about this. If someone claims to be a good baseball player, it is extremely easy to check. Not with martial arts, though, not at least always.
When it comes to TMA, often times the Master is expected to know fighting and inner aspects. In the old days, to be called a Master, this was true. Nowadays, it isn't the case anymore. A Master can be someone who can teach well even if he cannot apply anything well himself. And this is where the MMA crowd has a problem with TMA, quite understandably. But there is more to TMA than fighting, though. And in any case, what do you do after your fighting career is over? With many arts, you focus more on the inner aspects while still learning forms and weapons. In both camps (MMA and TMA), teaching is still a viable option after your fighting days are over.
But how do you know if your teacher has ever been a good fighter? Well, with TMA, you cannot know for sure always. With MMA, you can. What if aspects other than fighting interest you greatly? How do you then know who is good and who is not? Verifiably, you probably wouldn't know. It's all word-of-mouth.
So, the moral of the story is that with so many obscure areas in martial arts, trying to find the truth can sometimes be too difficult a task to handle. It might be better to just enjoy what you are learning and take each day at a time. And with all these challenges and whatnot....it goes with the territory and it should not be taken all too seriously by other people (the challenge in question has some questionable aspects, though, from both parties). Definitely 9 pages is giving them waaayy too much attention...:D
After all, how many Masters of the old boast and talk smack in general? How about in public (papers, the Net)? I know of none. That's called martial virtue (Wu De). What people sometimes forget is that it doesn't matter what we think of a given Master, it's what the other recognized Masters of various styles (definitely would have to be from other styles too for objectivity) think. Those opinions are almost impossible to find as they are not public, but they do exist. There is a community of high ranking Masters where opinions and skills are exchanged. Never or rarely are these meetings discussed openly. And it's easy to see why. Wu De is not something we can just pick up, it's something that must be learned over time.
These are the facts ;)
Cheers :)
//mika
David Jamieson
04-12-2004, 04:24 AM
This thread is repetitive, this thread is repetitive, this thread is repetitive... lol :p
I think this thread should get moved over to the argument battlefield about who holds the lineage blah blah blah over in the wing chun forum.
That way everyone who does the wing chun can continue to argue about how great their version is and about how everyone is doing it wrong. hahahaha.
cheers
over to you rub...seven...renegade? anyone? hellloooooo?
Phil Redmond
04-12-2004, 03:01 PM
The VTAA was established a few years after Yip Man's death. It's common knowledge that Leung Ting was a student of Leung Sheung's student. He may have taken many pictures with Yip Man but he was not a student of Yip Man. You can't have 2 sifus in the same system.
There was a witness to the Colonge incident that reported what occured.
SimonW
04-12-2004, 03:20 PM
It matters not who said what, who did what etc. WC should speak for itself.
TBH I haven't seen much from any sifu in this debate that has demonstrated their applied knowledge.
All concerned are past their fighting prime anyway. I'd like to know who is knew and talented (as opposed to who has the best publicist). Well, actually I tell a lie, I don't care who is knew and talented as it has no effect on my personal WC.
norther practitioner
04-12-2004, 03:31 PM
lol at the fact that this never got moved to the forum dedicated to wc in fighting.
SimonW
04-12-2004, 03:49 PM
NP, you speak with wisdom, except for one important detail. This debate should be moved to the 'black hole' forum where such rubbish is never seen again.
WC people, get your act together for crying out loud. If only for once in your aimless lives concentrate on your own ability than that of some guys you've probably never even met!
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
The VTAA was established a few years after Yip Man's death. It's common knowledge that Leung Ting was a student of Leung Sheung's student. He may have taken many pictures with Yip Man but he was not a student of Yip Man. You can't have 2 sifus in the same system.
There was a witness to the Colonge incident that reported what occured.
The VTAA was founded 1967 by Yip Man and not 1976 as Cheung wrote. Check their website.
If pictures and videos don't work as proof, what will? Hearsays? Even Yip Man sons acknowlede that Leung Ting was a closed door student of Yip Man.
Gangsterfist
04-13-2004, 11:34 AM
It matters not who said what, who did what etc. WC should speak for itself.
NP, you speak with wisdom, except for one important detail. This debate should be moved to the 'black hole' forum where such rubbish is never seen again.
lol at the fact that this never got moved to the forum dedicated to wc in fighting.
This thread is repetitive, this thread is repetitive, this thread is repetitive... lol
All very true, whatever happened to STFU and train.
But...
Who is the bigger fool, the fool or the fool that follows it?
-Obi Wan Kanobei (sp?)
Agreed, this is a pointless argument and I am sure the trolls are just fueling the flames here.
Ultimatewingchun
04-13-2004, 12:11 PM
IMX:
Okay...now listen carefully about Leung Ting - what some Ving Tsun people are saying about him now...is all anti-William Cheung politics....and all B.S.
I studied with Moy Yat from 1975-1983...
And when I first joined Moy Yat in 1975 William Cheung was considered by ALL within the Ving Tsun Family as somebody very special...and in fact - it was Leung Ting (according to 1975 Moy Yat...and other Yip Man students)...
it was Leung Ting who was the outcast at that time PRECISELY BECAUSE HE WAS AN IMPOSTER...(calling himself a direct student of Yip Man...his final closed-door student...and his successor)....
all of it - according to Moy Yat and the others - BULLS#IT !
Another Moy Yat account was that only direct students of Yip Man were supposed to wear black arm-bands on their suits when attending the funeral of Yip Man - and when Leung Ting showed up wearing one - Wong Shun leung MADE HIM TAKE IT OFF !!!!!
Enough about Leung Ting - he's twice the joke that Boztepe is.
Nick Forrer
04-13-2004, 01:00 PM
'Even Yip Man sons acknowlede that Leung Ting was a closed door student of Yip Man.'
IMX- you are mistaken on this point.
Meat Shake
04-13-2004, 01:01 PM
This thread sucks, and emin boztepe gives beautiful example of why you should learn ground fighting.
Merryprankster
04-13-2004, 01:03 PM
oh ****!!! LOL!!!
Meat Shake
04-13-2004, 01:08 PM
****, Im serious. I see all this "Kung fu guys dont need ground fighting" crap on here all the time, and then a clip like this comes up.
What is this clip? 2 kung fu masters "ground fighting". (yes, the "" are to accent the lack of talent therein.) Sure, emin boztepe may be great on his feet. Maybe not. All I know is that this is the only clip ive seen of him fighting, and its crap. Now all we need is a clip of one of the gracies trying to box somebody and we'll be golden.
I don't know what to believe, it goes round and round, pointless. Nobody has any kind of external information to back their claims up. So I still believe that Leung Ting trained with Yip Man because of several reasons such as that the concepts seem logical and perfectly for my needs, he has lots of fotos with Yip Man, he has videos of Yip Man performing the forms and other stuff, he was a member of the VTAA board. Well thats what I believe, I don't know whether it's true or not, but I rather trust my teacher that says that he has seen the videos and not some writer on the internet. I hope you understand. :D
Originally posted by Meat Shake
****, Im serious. I see all this "Kung fu guys dont need ground fighting" crap on here all the time, and then a clip like this comes up.
What is this clip? 2 kung fu masters "ground fighting". (yes, the "" are to accent the lack of talent therein.) Sure, emin boztepe may be great on his feet. Maybe not. All I know is that this is the only clip ive seen of him fighting, and its crap. Now all we need is a clip of one of the gracies trying to box somebody and we'll be golden.
Have you even read this thread? Boztepe wanted to take Cheung down.
Originally posted by imx
Have you even read this thread?
Unfortunately.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
IMX:
Okay...now listen carefully about Leung Ting - what some Ving Tsun people are saying about him now...is all anti-William Cheung politics....and all B.S.
I studied with Moy Yat from 1975-1983...
And when I first joined Moy Yat in 1975 William Cheung was considered by ALL within the Ving Tsun Family as somebody very special...and in fact - it was Leung Ting (according to 1975 Moy Yat...and other Yip Man students)...
it was Leung Ting who was the outcast at that time PRECISELY BECAUSE HE WAS AN IMPOSTER...(calling himself a direct student of Yip Man...his final closed-door student...and his successor)....
all of it - according to Moy Yat and the others - BULLS#IT !
Another Moy Yat account was that only direct students of Yip Man were supposed to wear black arm-bands on their suits when attending the funeral of Yip Man - and when Leung Ting showed up wearing one - Wong Shun leung MADE HIM TAKE IT OFF !!!!!
Enough about Leung Ting - he's twice the joke that Boztepe is.
It could also be the way Leung Ting claims it to be.
You're a TWC guy who according to your schools website believe that William Cheung is the real succesor of Yip Man, is this true?
It is not Leung Ting who claims what TWC is superior of all other Wing Chun linages, it is William Cheung. Just read the article. He insulted Moy Yat and company on the VTAA etc.
Leung Ting never claimed to be Yip Man' successor, he left the VTAA so that could found his own organization.
He might have been a outcast, but that has nothing to do with whether or not he have trained with Yip Man. During the time you were writing about Yip Man was still alive so why didn't he take some actions agains LT but instead placed him of the VTAA directors board?
Wong Shun leung made Leung take it off because there was some kind of problem between them and he didn't like that Leung Ting had two sifus.
You and your grandmaster seem to like to talk a lot, in your own words, Bulls**t.
Meat Shake
04-13-2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by imx
Have you even read this thread? Boztepe wanted to take Cheung down.
What the hell does that have to do with what I said? The ground fighting was absolute **** on both accounts.
Ultimatewingchun
04-13-2004, 05:47 PM
imx:
I have personally read magazine articles from the 70's wherein Leung Ting claimed to be Yip Man's successor...and Yip Man was long deceased before Leung Ting managed to get back into the good graces of the VTAA...and Wong Shun Leung did what he did at the funeral for EXACTLY the reasons I gave.
It's you...and the people you are listening to...WHO ARE FULL OF SH#T.
Originally posted by Meat Shake
What the hell does that have to do with what I said? The ground fighting was absolute **** on both accounts.
I have posted information about why Boztepe wanted to take Cheung down, which he did, previously in this thread.
Why do you think that the ground fighting was so bad?
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
imx:
I have personally read magazine articles from the 70's wherein Leung Ting claimed to be Yip Man's successor...and Yip Man was long deceased before Leung Ting managed to get back into the good graces of the VTAA...and Wong Shun Leung did what he did at the funeral for EXACTLY the reasons I gave.
It's you...and the people you are listening to...WHO ARE FULL OF SH#T.
sh*t here and sh*t everywhere, is that all you have to say?
Please be more specific and provide some more information about thoose articles. I am not saying that you are lying or anything but articles by reporters are often not 100% correct.
How do you know exatly that it is so? There is no way you can know that unless you were there and as I said before there are not only one version of what happened.
Merryprankster
04-14-2004, 05:19 AM
Why do you think that the ground fighting was so bad?
ummmmm.... because those of us who know what it should look like don't include "appears to be a grade school altercation over the kickball" as one of the criteria for "good."
Originally posted by Merryprankster
ummmmm.... because those of us who know what it should look like don't include "appears to be a grade school altercation over the kickball" as one of the criteria for "good."
Should look like? hehe Honestly have you studied Turkish Wrestling or WT Groundfighting, if not, then you have no idea how it should look like.
WingTsun20
04-17-2004, 02:34 PM
Emin Challenged
Just like to say Emin is a very skilled and aggressive Wingtsun fighter.....
He will kick butt!
Merryprankster
04-17-2004, 03:39 PM
Should look like? hehe Honestly have you studied Turkish Wrestling or WT Groundfighting, if not, then you have no idea how it should look like.
he-he, those of us who have studied (several) styles which incorporate groundfighting will tell you that the principles are (gasp) the same from art to art, even if the strategy and technique emphases differ. the fact that you think that "turkish wrestling" is significantly different from any other sort (except the oil and pants), demonstrates inexperience in this area. that's fine - i know **** about wc - but i know groundfighting.
Emin did the right thing trying to clear a path to Cheung's head, no doubt about it, MY problem is that it looked like schoolyard brawling from unskilled 9 year olds. cheungs takedown defense and ground defense was lousy, emin's inability to destroy such an unskilled ground opponent was inexcusable for somebody who claims his wrestling experience.
it was bad. that's all there is to it. his wt/wc/vt/vc might be fabulous standing, but at the time of that video, it was pits on the ground
LEGEND
04-17-2004, 09:08 PM
"Just like to say Emin is a very skilled and aggressive Wingtsun fighter....."
Not by fighting old men past their prime OR making numerous challenges then making numerous excuses to back out! LOL.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
he-he, those of us who have studied (several) styles which incorporate groundfighting will tell you that the principles are (gasp) the same from art to art, even if the strategy and technique emphases differ. the fact that you think that "turkish wrestling" is significantly different from any other sort (except the oil and pants), demonstrates inexperience in this area. that's fine - i know **** about wc - but i know groundfighting.
Emin did the right thing trying to clear a path to Cheung's head, no doubt about it, MY problem is that it looked like schoolyard brawling from unskilled 9 year olds. cheungs takedown defense and ground defense was lousy, emin's inability to destroy such an unskilled ground opponent was inexcusable for somebody who claims his wrestling experience.
it was bad. that's all there is to it. his wt/wc/vt/vc might be fabulous standing, but at the time of that video, it was pits on the ground
WT on the ground do not look like most of the other groundfighting from other styles.
Originally posted by LEGEND
"Just like to say Emin is a very skilled and aggressive Wingtsun fighter....."
Not by fighting old men past their prime OR making numerous challenges then making numerous excuses to back out! LOL.
That's an old argument that does not work since it's based on nothing credible. First William Cheung wasn't old.
Second, from what I know he only made one challenge to the Gracie's, so saying he made numerous challenges is wrong. Both, the Gracie's and Boztepe couldn't agree on a neutral location, so both parties made excuses, and not only Boztepe.
Merryprankster
04-18-2004, 05:03 AM
WT on the ground do not look like most of the other groundfighting from other styles.
yup. you're inexperienced with groundfighting.
have a good day.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
yup. you're inexperienced with groundfighting.
have a good day.
That's a bold statement from someone who clearly doesn't know anything about WT Groundfighting.
LEGEND
04-18-2004, 11:48 AM
YES and we're still awaiting WT groundfighting to hit the MMA circuit or the Grappler's Quest or any grappler tournament. I'm sure Merry who is a purple under Lloyd's Irvin( a badass man ) can attest to his grappling knowledge.
Meat Shake
04-18-2004, 12:07 PM
"That's a bold statement from someone who clearly doesn't know anything about WT Groundfighting."
I think that video pretty clearly proves that there is no such thing as WT ground fighting.
CaptinPickAxe
04-18-2004, 12:16 PM
Very Obvious...
He looked like a scared child trying to push away a rabid dog. Emin's ground game wasn't that hot either.
WT on the ground do not look like most of the other groundfighting from other styles.
So what's it look like?
CaptinPickAxe
04-18-2004, 01:17 PM
oh.....and....
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA @ the WC ground fighting comment made by IMX. If thats WC's groundfighting techiniques then I'm a Gracie . There was no technique, just awful crap. Dude, either your a exquisit troll or a ****in' moron.
Merryprankster
04-18-2004, 01:20 PM
So what's it look like?
apparently, since it doesn't look like any of the other groundfighting out there, which all looks extremely similar and uses the same principles, because it has to, it looks like something which violates all known physical laws.
the other alternative is that it looks like a schoolyard fight over the kickball.
David Jamieson
04-18-2004, 02:24 PM
wing chun kungfu as a system does not contain ground fighting techniques at all in it's curriculum.
there may be wing chun teachers who include groundfighting in their teachings, but it's not from wing chun even though they mayt incorporate a few things from their prior knowledge.
wing chun as a system contains:
siu nim tao form - no ground techs
Chum Kiu form - no ground techs
Biu Tze form - no ground techs
Bhat Jahm Do - 8 cut knives, no ground techs
6.5 pole - staff form, no ground techs
108 mook jong - a conditioning exercise- no ground techs
so wing chun and and of itself is NOT a ground fighting system.
Chin Na is seperate and does contain ground stuff or applicable to ground stuff like big circle/ small circle ideas.
Kum La sao is drills that are in all ranges dealing with grabs holds and releases and again, this is not in the forms curriculum of wing chun.
Shuai Chiao is a whole style seperate and is similar to judo in some respects and involves slamming people into the ground and then beating the living daylights out of them. :)
Dit tang Chuan is a ground fighting style from cma.
There are Shaolin forms that deal with working from the ground.
But, just to reiterate, wing chun is not a ground fighting system and it cannot make any claim that it is. It has never been taught as that and it certainly doesn't train it's practitioners through it's forms in the G&P standards that you find in Gracie, or Shuai jiao or other ground dominant and focused styles.
having said that, it is quite evident from teh video that William didn't have a clue what to do after he was tripped and showed a weakness in his ability.
Emin was also weak on the ground and merely overpowered William showing that he also had little skill in the area of ground work.
In the end, the video disgraces them both.
cheers
cheers
Since most of you only seem to be here to bash and therefore seem to be unable of conducting a normal discussion, I assume that everything I write will not be taken serious. Hence I am posting this instead, read if you want to, take what is usefull, reject what is not.
==================================
Despite the ever-continuing bickering between the GJJ and WT camps on the Net, it's nice to know that learning and mutual respect can still be found in the martial arts community.
This past Monday, 3 July 1995, Michael Hartman and I got together to see what an average student in GJJ had to offer to an average student in WT, and vice versa. Mike has been studying GJJ for about as long as I have been studying WT. So no Superfight, no 20 years experience, and no challenges. And for me, at least, it turned out to be educational and interesting. I learned more about GJJ and found it to be one of the most effective, interesting, and well-thought out arts I've seen in my years in the martial arts (WT is the other one). I walked with respect for the art and respect for my old net.friend and new personal friend Mike Hartman.
My general impression of GJJ is that it is effective and fast. Much faster than I expected. For instance, on the shoot, if the partner misses the one shot that is possible as the GJJ student comes in, then it is pretty much game over.
Mike demonstrated that the positioning and reflexes of the GJJ person eliminate most counters that can be thrown after that. Mike demonstrated that the positioning and reflexes of the GJJ person eliminate most counters that can be thrown after that.
As many have suspected, GJJ and WT have a lot in common. GJJ develops contact reflexes as well - immediate responses to the partner's movements. Once GJJ has control of the body, any counters by the partner trigger smooth transitions to other techniques. GJJ also follows the same principle as WT in attacking the attacker and not the attack. This is one of the things that makes both arts so effective. There is also a high degree of attention to detail. Mike could explain the rational for every movement, and also why one wouldn't want to do certain things that would seem natural counters to GJJ techniques. Another neat feature that is analogous to WT is that there is a lot of footwork and other leg work in GJJ. Many people miss what going on in the lower body. A couple of the techniques in GJJ are also similar to WT, only the end result is different.
The differences tend to follow from the different objectives each art has. The contact reflexes of GJJ are developed in the body as a whole which functions as a single unit. In WT contact reflexes are developed in the body in units - each arm and each leg - and each unit must be able to function independently.GJJ range is body contact range - Mike showed me how the GJJ student would pretty much glue himself (his entire body) to the partner's body. Attempts to "unglue" the GJJ student is what triggers the GJJ reflexes.
The things that I liked best: I though the shoot was neat. It was fast. The transitions used in GJJ are fluid and use the force generated by the partner. Mike showed me some GJJ mount and guard escapes and those were great, as well.
Mike was pretty darn competent and was able to convey the basic concepts of GJJ well. Overall, I had a great time, and look forward to working out with Mike again!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As every r.m.a. reader well knows, a feud has developed between both the WT and the GJJ camps as of late. It was in the heat of this debate that Michael Peter and I began our correspondence. It was at first somewhat unfriendly, but we slowly, but surely, began to develop a respect for each other's opinion regarding our respective styles.
After months of our ever-growing friendly e-mail exchanges, I informed Mike that I would be in San Antonio in early July for my sister's wedding. Mike was kind enough to make the trip from Austin to meet with me, and we finally got to meet with one another to "show our stuff" this past Monday, July 3.
We began, with what I now look upon as a rather humorous introduction to the principle of efficiency of WT, with the following situation. He grabbed my wrist and asked what I would do if someone did this to me on the street. I responded by turning my wrist into his thumb and bringing my hand over his wrist to apply a wrist lock (a standard move).
Mike then asked me to do the same to him, and when I did he delivered a quick left to my face. In retrospect this seems an obvious thing to do, but it took my very much by surprise; one of many I would experience this day.
He then went on to show me the WT stance and some of the basic principles involved in WT. What struck me about WT was the emphasis on sensitivity: the development of the ability to feel your opponent's movements and react accordingly. Development of the "contact reflexes" is rather similar to what we practice in GJJ. We often try to "feel" what our opponent is doing, or sense shifts in body weight to utilize for our advantage.
Another facet of WT that intrigued me was the applicability of its principles to "groundfighting". I must concede when the WT camp said they knew how to "groundfight" and not "grapple" I was a bit perplexed and somewhat sceptical.
From what I learned from more traditional martial arts, movements of the hip are essential for the development of power. If I have a guy in my guard, or even better if I have mounted him, I can control him so that it is hard for him to hit me, but easy for me to hit him.
The way Mike punches, however, does not rely on the hips. Instead, the WT artist develops power from the movement of the elbow from the side of the body to the centre of the body, and then straightening the elbow out.
I was very surprised, and very upset, to see that Mike could hit me rather easily even when I had him in my guard: a position I am usually quite comfortable fighting from.
In short, I was very impressed with the efficiency of the WT style. The only truly contradictory principles I found between WT and GJJ was that in WT tends to emphasize throwing everything at an opponent once contact is made, whereas GJJ tends to try to establish position before trying to attack.
It is my, and I'm sure Mike's as well, hope that the two camps (WC included!) can try to exchange a few more ideas and a bit less heated rhetoric.
If any GJJ artist out there every get the opportunity to work out with a WT man, I highly recommend it. It certainly helped me to see that I am still very vulnerable in certain positions, given the present state of my knowledge/ability, in which I previously felt very safe and comfortable.
Merryprankster
04-18-2004, 02:35 PM
seen it before...sounds like (gosh!) it relies on the same principles!
which means... it looks similar!
i reiterate:
those of us who have studied (several) styles which incorporate groundfighting will tell you that the principles are (gasp) the same from art to art, even if the strategy and technique emphases differ.
yet you insist it's terribly different. hmmmmm.... and yes, i'm aware of "groundfighting" vice just "grappling." I've done both. The fellow from 1995 (GJJ) guy obviously hadn't dealt much with people trying to whack him. it changes things - a little practice and it's not so tough. comes down to who's better at what they do. but somehow really truly DIFFERENT?
so much for that.
David Jamieson
04-18-2004, 02:36 PM
imx-
I am not "bashing" you.
I'm pointing out that wing chun kungfu as a system unto itself does not emphasize or drill ground work in it's practitioners according to the forms available in the style.
every kungfu guy on every kungfu board who practices all the kungfu styles knows that a style is expressed in its forms both through solo practice, through drills and through free striking (san da).
wing chun practitioners do NOT spend time working on defense on teh ground, mount, guard, G&P etc etc within it's forms. Wing Chun relies most heavily on what has come to be known as "the straight blast" that is to attack the centreline, press the lead arm or your opponent against them and smash with your free hand while driving them back. That is the essence of wing chun fighting style.
Direct, abrupt and when incorporated properly quite brutal in many senses.
But no style has all teh answers or all the ranges perfectly covered by all it's practitioners.
Even teh Shaolin styles which are said to take 3 lifetimes to master make the admission through that very statement that one cannot know it all.
Play to the strengths. In kungfu, the philosophy is mostly to "not let yourself get taking to the ground"
It is to the advantage of a kungfu player to at least learn a few things to do if that should occur.
Granted, many styles are starting to incorporate things that were otherwise outside the system to compensate.
In particular, because wing chun is probably the most practiced and popular of chinese martial arts due to its widespread availability and relatively small system size, tehre are many in teh wing chun style who also look to the ground working styles to augment their self defense skills.
cheers
rubthebuddha
04-19-2004, 02:28 PM
merry -- you're going to be really pizzed about this, but do you know what my wt teacher said was the most important part of groundfighting?
positioning. i think i've heard that term before around here. ;)
a couple details about wt groundfighting ... the hand techniques are very much the same and used as deflections according to certain directions of energy. the method is much the same as in stand up -- keep yourself square to your opponent and let your hands find their way through. give your back so someone and it's nightnight. the immediate goals are to gain dominant positioning and use as much force as necessary to deal with your opponent, then get tf out of the area as quickly as possible. even most of the chin na contained in wt works on the ground from either mount or guard (only way i've been able to get the 250-lber off me in the past -- leave an arm out there and it's begging to be locked).
needless to say, as part of my wt "groundfighting" training, i've been taught such unique-to-wt concepts as scooting, shrimping, bucking, etc. -- you get the idea. :)
David Jamieson
04-19-2004, 02:50 PM
unique-to-wt concepts as scooting, shrimping, bucking
uh, lol, scooting and bucking are wrestling terms, shrimping is a boxing term.
none of those come from "wing chun" kungfu at all and were probably co-opted in order to add material to your wing chun training that would update it.
maybe so? yes?
peas
rubthebuddha
04-19-2004, 03:00 PM
kl -- did your sarcasm meter go on strike?
my point was that much of wt ground concepts isn't wt-exclusive. as so many folkses have said before, a human body can only move so many different ways before you're no longer talking about concept and instead splitting hairs (as in, how many degrees should you bend your elbow on a bong sau, etc.).
LEGEND
04-19-2004, 03:03 PM
Kung Lek...who are YOU to criticize terminologies such as SHRIMP SAO...BUCK JEE...BRIDGE SAO...REAR NAKED FOOK...ARM BAR TAO...these are all original principles of Wing Tsun created hundreds of years ago.
Meat Shake
04-19-2004, 04:01 PM
Pat yourself on the back LEGEND.
Merryprankster
04-22-2004, 02:24 PM
say it ain't so, rtb, say it ain't so:D
rubthebuddha
04-22-2004, 02:45 PM
what's the world coming to when common sense is actually somewhat ... common? :confused: :o
:D
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