Kung Fu Nunchucku

[Judge Pen]

:eek: Did I read the cover of the new KF magazine correctly?

[MasterKiller]

I read in a previous issue of KF/QG magazine that Bruce Lee learned numchucks from Dan Insonato while Insonato was a student of his.

Let the 'chucks go, Gene. Really.

[GeneChing]

...know who butters your bread before you start throwing stones... or something like that. :confused:

Seriously, are you guys saying that you've never swung a pair of chucks? virgins. :p

[Vash]

I MISSED SOMETHING!

The new kf/tc is out? What?

Oh, and NUMCHUCKS 0WN JOO!

[Ben Gash]

www.cmaod.org/HongFistVCD.html
www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_westernstaff1.htm

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...know who butters your bread before you start throwing stones... or something like that. :confused:

Seriously, are you guys saying that you've never swung a pair of chucks? virgins. :p

:D Sure Gene, I've swung a pair of 'chucks, but people tell me that I do karate because we swing them in our school.

Oh, and MK, I browsed the article and the guy called them two-sectional staff. I know you love that! :p

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Oh, and MK, I browsed the article and the guy called them two-sectional staff. I know you love that! :p fokking great....:mad:

[EarthDragon]

To top it off I love when people call them "nun chucks" instead of thier japanese name "nun cha ku" meaning "patti tool" or even worse is "numb chucks" as in numb skull, thats got to be the best one I've heard.......you know your not a martial artist if you dont own a pair...................LOl

[Serpent]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
To top it off I love when people call them "nun chucks" instead of thier japanese name "nun cha ku" meaning "patti tool" or even worse is "numb chucks" as in numb skull, thats got to be the best one I've heard.......you know your not a martial artist if you dont own a pair...................LOl
Do you mean paddy tool, as in rice paddy?

Numb skull.

;)

[EarthDragon]

patti paddy , same thing you know what I mean, japanese translations from kenjo usually end with and "I"

[Chang Style Novice]

I posted this photo of George Xu from Tai Chi Magazineabout six months ago. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=391051)

[Oso]

I read in a previous issue of KF/QG magazine that Bruce Lee learned numchucks from Dan Insonato while Insonato was a student of his.


i recently heard a verbal statement that Jim Harrison taught Bruce the nunchaku. can't verify, of course, but there you go.

[apoweyn]

In Inosanto's book on Jeet Kune Do, he states that he taught Lee the nunchaku (tabak toyok in kali). Tried to teach him stick as well, but Lee wasn't interested as the story goes.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I posted this photo of George Xu from Tai Chi Magazineabout six months ago. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=391051)

I'd say that about settles it, personally.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I posted this photo of George Xu from Tai Chi Magazineabout six months ago. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=391051)
Man, that dude is tiny!

[Chang Style Novice]

'Course, I posted that with the provision that given the extreme difference in size between what George has got there and what we normally think of as nunchaku, there isn't neccesarily a whole lot of similarity between the two. I'll now add that I don't really know squat about George Xu, whether his xingyi is any good/authentic, and would have no way of judging even if I had more to go off than a single, obviously posed still photograph.

[MasterKiller]

Nevertheless, a real 2-section staff is a long weapon. Not the compact numchucks Bruce made famous. Numchuks, at best, are a two-section stick.

[Oso]

verbal, and unverified as I said.


so, there is a philipine version of nunchaku?

[apoweyn]

Right. But I think it's well within the bounds of effective marketing and not particularly misleading to describe such a weapon (or an article on said weapon) as "chinese nunchaku."

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Oso
verbal, and unverified as I said.


so, there is a philipine version of nunchaku?

There's a filipino name for it, yeah. It's the same weapon though. (Unlike the obvious size difference in the Okinawan vs. Chinese examples we're getting here.)

As for the verbal claim, there's nothing to say that Lee didn't get nunchaku tips from two different sources. He got kicking tips, punching tips, grappling tips, etc. from different sources. So why not?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by apoweyn
Right. But I think it's well within the bounds of effective marketing and not particularly misleading to describe such a weapon (or an article on said weapon) as "chinese nunchaku." OK, if that's what the article does. But I still get pizzed when people call nunchaku a "Chinese 2-section staff" when a Chinese staff is a long weapon, and 2 section staff is clearly much longer than a set of chucks.

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay fine. Is a morgenstern then a "German nunchaku"? (http://www.traditionelle-events.de/morgensterne/jk_3201.jpg)

[Oso]

Ap, do you perhaps have any web sources for the philipine version? I'm curious about the usage as compared to so called 'chinese' method vs. 'japanese/okinawan' method.

or book sources, I'll go have a cup of coffe at B&N and read a bit...

[Oso]

CSN, imo, only if they will grab both sides of the flexible bits for application of technique. otherwise it's just a variation of the flail...which, in my understanding, is mostly just holding onto the handle with one or both hands....

[red5angel]

Man, that dude is tiny!

bwahahahhahaha!!! I don't know why but that just about put me in tears!

I learned a couple of forms with the "two-sectioned" staff when I was studying Shorin Ryu in high school. I also saw one of our black belts put himself in the hospital hitting himself in the nutz

[Bluesman]

I read that the Chinese ones were made out of metal and some of them had a short and a longer length connected by a chain.
www.chinesearms.com had an antique pair for sale. These were very short.

[Chang Style Novice]

Sounds reasonable. But looking back at George Xu, his weapon doesn't look to me like its going to be passed back and for from one weighted end to the other - its simply too big for that.

What we have here are fundamental similarities in weapon design (take a stick, add a chain, add another stick at the other end of the chain) and then a number of variations that affect how it can be used, sometimes dramatically. I deliberately linked to a morgenstern design that uses a smooth stick as a striking surface instead of a spiky ball to obscure these distinctions, but nevertheless, the proportions of the weapon (not to mention the fact that it has a distinct handle complete with crossguard) mean it's obviously NOT meant to be double ended, as the nunchaku is.

In fact, the more we look at similar weapons, the more it seems clear that the double-endedness is the defining trait of the nunchaku.

[red5angel]

whenever I have seen the chinese two section staff used it's been like a flail, but with typical chinese flair. I have certainly seen both ends used with equanimaty.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Bluesman
I read that the Chinese ones were made out of metal and some of them had a short and a longer length connected by a chain.
www.chinesearms.com had an antique pair for sale. These were very short. You'll notice on that site they call similar weapons "2-section stick" and "palm stick."

http://www.chinesearms.com/chinesearms/chinesearms/001/other/oindex.htm

[Chang Style Novice]

Looking over bluesman's link, I see a lot of variation on the two sticks linked by chain concept - some look just like the classic bruce lee numbamachuckles, others a lot like George's toy that I posted above, and still others like the morgenstern I linked to.

'Course, that site also has about a hundred different names for "a stick with a ball on one end" too. "Hand Thunder" "Brass Melon" "Iron Garlic" "Sleeve Thunder" "Iron Garlic" - I can't tell if the guy's more obsessed with weather or food!

[Oso]

the 'legendary' history I had been given about the flexible weapons talked about the ideas coming when rigid weapons broke. when you break a stick usually it doesn't break all the way through and you now have a floppy bit. I've seen rattan staves and sticks break and the defender get hit with the now floppy end. so, it sort makes sense. so, a full size staff breaks and you see the 2 section staff and a club breaks and you get the flail. It would make sense to me that the double ended version would have been a spin off from the single ended flail.

[Judge Pen]

And the palm stick appears to have two sections that can be used to grasp: Much like the nunchucku.

Oso, my thoughts exactly. For a culture that created weapons like the 3-section staff, a nunchucku type reapon would be simplier and more rational a progression.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hmmm...it's my understanding that in Europe, blunt weapons like the mace and morgenstern came into favor when armor grew too thick to penetrate with swords - a heavier, blunt weapon could still dent the armor enough to knock the guy inside silly. Chained weapons like the morgenstern and flail gained popularity when it was realized it didn't take as much strength to give them armor-clocking impact because of the torque you develop whirling it - whereas you actually have to swing a rigid mace or hammer to get the same force.

Since thick metal armor never really developed in the far east (due to less raw material being available) I think there must have been some other reason for their development.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
OK, if that's what the article does. But I still get pizzed when people call nunchaku a "Chinese 2-section staff" when a Chinese staff is a long weapon, and 2 section staff is clearly much longer than a set of chucks.

I can understand that.

[MasterKiller]

Going back to ED's post....weren't nunchuks (as we know them) an Okinawan farming tool orginally used to mash rice patties?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Oso
Ap, do you perhaps have any web sources for the philipine version? I'm curious about the usage as compared to so called 'chinese' method vs. 'japanese/okinawan' method.

or book sources, I'll go have a cup of coffe at B&N and read a bit...

Hmm... not offhand, no. Inosanto mentions it in his book on filipino martial arts. But it's out of print. And doesn't have any sort of historical treatment of it.

As far as history goes, it's probably hard to beat Mark Wiley's books. If you go to B&N, keep an eye out for his stuff. I can't guarantee anything about the tabak toyok. But it'd be a good place to start.

I'll have a look online myself.


Stuart B.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Serpent

Man, that dude is tiny!
Hehe .. now that's funny! You got a literal LOL here.

[red5angel]

yes, okinawan rice gathering tool. I've seen it used for it's real purpose, quite handy.

[apoweyn]

After a not-exactly-exhaustive search, I turned up this:

http://www.kungfuarnis.com/printseminars.html (No idea where this place is in relation to you, Oso. But there was apparently a seminar recently on tabak toyok.)

And this: http://www.neonhusky.com/history.html

Not very informative, but it does seem to at least back it up.

Most of the references to tabak toyok, however, came from the JKD crowd. Draw your own conclusions from that. :)

[Chang Style Novice]

This thread has so far been very informative and civil. I just hope no one slips up and mentions Sai.
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Uh oh....




;)

[MasterKiller]

The use of Nunchaku as a weapon originated in the Okinawa archipelago which is now part of Japan. There you go.

[Vash]

There was another Nunchaku used to beat canoes. I want to say that they were heavier than the rice-gathering ones, but I don't have any documents on that.

And there was a version which was originally a horse bridal. Seen that one used in a pre-arranged sparring session. Pretty cool.

[GeneChing]

In mandarin, the word for nunchuks is er jie gun which literally translates into 'two section stick' (a three section stick (http://store.martialartsmart.net/25-31.html) is called san jie gun). Many variations on the form exist in Chinese martial arts. If you think about it, CMA has one of the most diverse arsenal of any culture in the world, and the nunchuk is a rather basic idea, a flail at it's most fundamental level, so you see all sorts of versions. Now there are many traditional Chinese folk styles that practice nunchuk, or variations of nunchuk. Most have longer chains or longer staff sections. Some have very short sections and longer chains, almost more like a manriki (http://store.martialartsmart.net/45-20c.html) (but with longer handle-like ends than this example - almost like the handle of a chain whip (http://store.martialartsmart.net/45-27.html)). Given all these examples, there is no question that weapons parallel to what we commonly refer to as a chuk exist in China and are a traditional part of the practice.

Now what makes chuks interesting is, of course, the little dragon factor. Thanks to Bruce, chuks are the most popular weapon of the martial arts in America, not only for practice, but also as perceived by pop culture. Now everyone would like to claim a piece of Bruce. Of course, since he's dead, anyone around him can say they taught him nunchuk - but - if they were Bruce's master, why didn't they take chuks to the level that Bruce did? Again, it's the little dragon factor. Bruce probably took lessons in nunchuk from many people, but in the end, he put his own spin on it. Now I've held a pair of Bruce Lee's custom chuks (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=280), and I'll tell you that he was working on a variation. He was taking it to another level. Bruce Lee did more for the evolution of martial arts than anyone of our generation. He changed everything. He inspired and continues to inspire.

What was interesting about our most recent "Nunchuku for Kung Fu" article was that it told the story of someone who was inspired by Lee and took up the chuks on his own. Now that's a story we've heard countless times before (hell, many of us might even be that story) but the spin is that this guy was in Taiwan. He couldn't find a kung fu teacher - at that time, Taiwan was promoting TKD, so he rose to become a TKD master and kendo master. In fact, he is one of the highest ranking kendo masters in Taiwan, a unique position if you know anything at all about Taiwan/Japan relationships. Along the way, he created his own chuk style. Now here's the rub, he's taken it back to PR China, and is getting recognition for it. He's winning tournaments with it. Go figure. But check out the story yourself, and then comment.

[MasterKiller]

Gene,
Is there any record of Shaolin using such a weapon?

[Oso]

the first link is old and to someone in my old group. Ng is a good sticker. Much, much better than I am but he got got his 3rd black rank straight outta Presas hands. I'll have to check with him the next time I see him to see to find out if he got any traditional FMA nunchaku. I'll let you know what he says.



Of course, since he's dead, anyone around him can say they taught him nunchuk - but - if they were Bruce's master, why didn't they take chuks to the level that Bruce did?

this doesn't make sense. just because someone, probably several someones, showed Bruce the rudiments of nunchaku doesn't make them his master or belittle their own abilities with the weapon. The two names given, Inasanto and Harrison, both have long documented histories of thier abilities.

[apoweyn]

the first link is old and to someone in my old group. Ng is a good sticker. Much, much better than I am but he got got his 3rd black rank straight outta Presas hands. I'll have to check with him the next time I see him to see to find out if he got any traditional FMA nunchaku. I'll let you know what he says.

Yeah, do that. I'd be interested to hear about it. Cheers Oso. :)

[GeneChing]

MK - They do practice them at Shaolin. You can find chuks at all the stores. But I'm not sure how 'traditional' it is there.

Oso - I did not mean to belittle Inosanto or Harrison. My point was that if they taught Lee chuks, they aren't remembered for it. No one is remembered for chuks like Lee. Every chuk player is in Lee's shadow. Again, it's the little dragon factor.

One more note, just to punch up this thread: Something I really liked about the Taiwan nunchuk master that is covered in our latest issue - he wears this silver gi that has MOSCHINO written all over it, upside down no less. You guys really got to check out this article. :p

[norther practitioner]

He's also rocking a superfly funky belt.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by GeneChing
You guys really got to check out this article. :p

I will as soon as it comes in the mail. I briefly saw it at the newstand! :D

[oasis]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
This thread has so far been very informative and civil. I just hope no one slips up and mentions Sai.
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Uh oh....




;)

so as not to derail this thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29353)

[Oso]

Gene, I'm just not that big a Bruce Lee fan. I just don't see what all the hype is about.

[Bluesman]

Ok, was the sai called iron ruler? The southern ones had one of the tines pointed back toward the handle from what I have read.

[Oso]

I heard that the sai was originally an eating implement of the formosan giants.

[GeneChing]

What's the hype? That's a fair question. I suppose the easy answer is the default to my little dragon factor concept. Bruce is cool, ergo chuks are cool. For a personal point of view, chuks are fun. I like to spin them. I don't get all crazy-like but it's always a fun trick at parties. Basic chuk skills are pretty simple; but like any martial arts thing, it takes a lot of practice to get really good. Also there's something appealing to the illegalness of it, but that may just be me. That would keep it from being a good self-defense weapon, because you'd get it too much trouble if you really used it. I keep a pair by my desk, mostly to hold books open, but also becuase I like the pair (it's one of these (http://store.martialartsmart.net/19-04.html)). And of the guys in the office who don't practice martial arts here, they've all dabbled in chuks. There's just something about chuks - they're charismatic. They're flashy. They're fun. Maybe that's why Bruce chose them.


He's also rocking a superfly funky belt. you know it. :cool:

[Oso]

:) I meant the hype about Bruce Lee himself. Not nunchaku.

I dig chucks. They are usually my concealed carry but they are not illegal here. I have a set of maple octagon speed chucks purchased from AWMA about 1986. dirty, old and gray now but I keep the ball bearing lubed with teflon spray.

[mantis108]

The proper name of the Nunchuku in Chinese is Huai Jeung. Huai is the abdominal area. Jeung is staff or stick. The weapon is name such because it can be hidden within the robe (ancient clothing).This weapon is consider an "odd" weapon or specialty weapon as well as a concealed weapon. The northern Praying Mantis version is metal side for hitting and wooden side for handle. There is a traditional form which can be drilled by 2 people available unlike the XMA dance fest versions. The long handle with a shorter one links to it is called Da Sao Zi (larger sweeper). It is derivered from farming tool. However, there is a "royal" connection to it that said it was invented by Song Taizu (Grand Emperor of Song dynasty). So...

Mantis108

[Judge Pen]

That's interesting. Thanks.

[Chang Style Novice]

To rephrase and reiterate -

Presuming that neccessity is the mother of invention, why was it neccessary to invent a weapon that is essentially a club swung on a flexible lever?

I don't believe that this innovation occurred without a reason, and I've explained my understanding of the reasons it happened in europe upthread, and why I believe those reasons would not have applied in asia. If I am right, I hope someone will provide an alternate reason. If I am wrong, I hope someone will provide an explanation for how exactly I am wrong.

[Oso]

...I wear my w/ one stick down the sleave of a jacket w/ the other hanging inside the coat. keeps the chain from jangling and a fast draw is possible...

but,now I'll have to change that since I done tol' ya'll.

that ol' Song Emperor just invented everything didn't he?

i've also heard that version referred to as Large Sweeper.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
To rephrase and reiterate -

Presuming that neccessity is the mother of invention, why was it neccessary to invent a weapon that is essentially a club swung on a flexible lever?

I don't believe that this innovation occurred without a reason, and I've explained my understanding of the reasons it happened in europe upthread, and why I believe those reasons would not have applied in asia. If I am right, I hope someone will provide an alternate reason. If I am wrong, I hope someone will provide an explanation for how exactly I am wrong.

Well since china has the largest variations on weapons (wolf tooth spade, 3 section staff, tiger hook swords, etc.) I'd say they got bored and experimented a lot. :p

[Oso]

CSN, why must necessity be the mother of invention? I agree that is a truism to a large degree but why couldn't it have been experimentation or happenstance?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Well since china has the largest variations on weapons (wolf tooth spade, 3 section staff, tiger hook swords, etc.) I'd say they got bored and experimented a lot. :p FYI---Wolf's tooth club is a farming hoe.

[Chang Style Novice]

Oso -

Because "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

It simply makes sense to me that innovations come in response to need and/or changing circumstance. For example, I find Gene's explanation for the ubiquity of Sai-ish weapons compelling. It's simply good tactics to have a weapon that can break or snare your opponent's weapon. It doesn't have to be related to farming at all - frankly, those kinds of explanations sound like romanticized, folkloric hooey to me. I suppose that sometimes innovations happen without impetus, but I'll go out on a limb and call that a a rare exception to a rule.

As always, I could be wrong.

[Oso]

what about 'art' ?

[Chang Style Novice]

Art ain't got much to do with war, IMO.

I actually came back to this thread to recount some scenes from MKs favorite kungfu movie (and mine, too) - Enter the 36th Chamber aka Shaolin Master Killer.

A subplot of the movie is the invention of the 3 segment staff by San Te. He invents it becuase he is constantly outmatched by a senior monk of greater skill. In order to defeat the senior monk's defensive blocking techniques, he develops a flexible weapon that can attack around a blocked attack. Now, this movie example is clearly the kind of romanticized folkloric hooey I was railing against before, but it also follows my line of thinking. The flexible weapon here is a new technology that's neccesary because Senior monk is too good with swords to be defeated with the previous technology - a straight staff.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Oso
what about 'art' ? Oso's got a point. There is a certain penchant in the CMAs to have "high level" kung fu, and beating someone with something different, unique, or something that required a great amount of skill to use seemed to have an appeal for fighters back in the day. I can see how they might get creative just for the sake of being creative.


It doesn't have to be related to farming at all - frankly, those kinds of explanations sound like romanticized, folkloric hooey to me. If we are referencing Okinawan history, then it would have to related to farming as all weapons were confiscated, right? So, I can see how some metal pole they used to poke holes in the ground (to save their fingers) starts to look pretty useful when you can't have an edged weapon.

[Chang Style Novice]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
If we are referencing Okinawan history, then it would have to related to farming as all weapons were confiscated, right? So, I can see how some metal pole they used to poke holes in the ground (to save their fingers) starts to look pretty useful when you can't have an edged weapon. Well, that still gives the guy a good reason for using a sai or numbumuchuckle instead of something else. In other words, neccesity was the mother of that thar invention, too.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
A subplot of the movie is the invention of the 3 segment staff by San Te. He invents it becuase he is constantly outmatched by a senior monk of greater skill. In order to defeat the senior monk's defensive blocking techniques, he develops a flexible weapon that can attack around a blocked attack. Now, this movie example is clearly the kind of romanticized folkloric hooey I was railing against before, but it also follows my line of thinking. The flexible weapon here is a new technology that's neccesary because Senior monk is too good with swords to be defeated with the previous technology - a straight staff. He makes that staff accidentally, though, by whacking bamboo with a monk spade. Which is Oso's point, afterall.

[Oso]

that follows my point about the flexible kung fu weapons being derived from broken rigid ones...

I just feel there was more innovation for innovations sake in CMA weapon development for every one of them to be the product of necessity. not saying all were or weren't.

{edit}

but can you just imagine what a ming dynasty R&D team would look like?


this is fun...

but, it's friday, and I've been at work since 7am, and there are margarita's calling my name.

{picture dancing margarita glasses saying 'oso, come out and playay' }

[Judge Pen]

I heard that Oso. I have a date with a kung fu schoolteacher. :D

[MasterKiller]

The other 'legend' about the 3 section is that a monk broke his favorite staff, and refusing to part with it, had the blacksmith figure out a way to reconnect it..... more happenstance.

[GeneChing]

The 'broken staff' legend of Sin, whooops, I mean San Te, is parallel to the legend of Song Taizu and the two-section sweeper. Personally, I don't really put much stock in either of those stories, but they make great poetry.

Flexible weapons exist in many cultures. Everyone has whips. Most evolved chain weapons. Then the only variation was what was on the end of the chains. The interesting notion of the chuk is that it's symmetrical - you hit with both ends, you hold both ends. That's novel.


I meant the hype about Bruce Lee himself. Not nunchaku. puh-lease oso :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

The other thing is that I noticed many people have a habit of assuming one thing came from another. It's entirely possible that at times, things are just sort of made up. They may be inspired by something but for the most part I think there are quite a few things that may not have started as anything or been discovered by accident. Some monk sitting on a hill somewhere could have swallowed some fungus, and started throwing things, swinging things and putting things together to see what he could get them to do!


I'm just sayin'

[Oso]

puh-lease oso

puh-lease, yourself.

what I said was:


I just don't see what all the hype is about.

meaning that I don't see what all the hype is about never have. If Bruce is so hot why did he die at a younger age than you or I? If he was so hot, why all the division amongst his followers after his death. If he was so hot, why aren't we ALL JKD practitioners?

These are just questions I ask myself whenever I hear someone go off about how great he was. no need to get snotty about it.

[Judge Pen]

Someone posted this website as an example of common kung fu weapons. Check out what was included:

http://www.shaolinchowka.com/shaolin-kung-fu-forms/index.html

[yenhoi]

Oso... calm the fizzuck down.

Bruce Lee has notes published on the nunchaku in John Little's "Bruce Lee's Commentaries on the Martial Way Vol. 3."

I have been looking for years and have found very little written info on FMA tabak toyok.

Tabak Toyok are flexible weapons and come near the middle of most FMA systems training hierarchy. Usually FMA systems have 12 tiers of weapons training, often starting with: Single sticks, double sticks, stick and dagger, and empty hand. The Tiers vary sometimes wildy from system to system. In many FMA systems flexible weapons like the tabak toyok, hanker chiefs, towels, chains, ropes, etc, come around tier 5 or 6 or a little later.

Many FMA systems have a projectile weapon tier, and some include the "hand cannon."

Neat stuff.

Im sure years of nunchaku practice are responsible for my mad ass skills with a balisong. Also I think there was (much more) value in weapon prowess back in the day, and there still is something good to say about that!

:eek:

[yenhoi]

Also, in the book "JKD Conversations." Several of Bruce Lee's students make comments about his use of the nunchaku and his opinions about them.

:p

[yenhoi]

http://www.dogbrothers.com

They have a clip there of one of the Gatherings where one guy used nunchaku against staff and single stick I think. Its the clip labelel weapons.

FMA training in any weapon would include: Basic angles (like an asterisk) - blocks, deflections, counters, and disarms for each of those angles, full power striking with the weapon with those angles against tires, trees, and bundled sticks etc, sumbrada and numerada training - basically start as various two man drills, then turn into "flows" of several two man drills, then turn into free flowing "play." Im not sure, but I would imagine most FMA weapons footwork is basically the same for all FMA weapons and empty hand.

There are many threads on the Dogbrothers forum concerning FMA use of tabak toyok.

:D

[Oso]

yenhoi, what makes you think I'm not calm. :) just expressing my opinion and a lot less vehemently than most due 'round here.


thanks for the info on flexible weapons in FMA. It sounds like you are saying that they teach flexible weapons as a 'class' of weapons. That would be neat if they did. My first teacher did the same, we learned rigid weapons (staff and short stick) flexible weapons (chain, nunchaku, towel) then paired and edged.

[Vash]

Anybody have some decent links for those? I've been interested for some time in these types of "weapons."

Also, I've heard of Korean sash fighting. Anyone seen/experienced it?

[Judge Pen]

Donnie Yen: Once Upon a Time in China II. Mean mothertrucker with a towel.

[Vash]

That was great.

[MasterKiller]

"Within Kung Fu, these weapons (Sai, Nunchaku, Bo, Kama, Tonfa) exist with slightly different designs. However, it would be presumptuous to assume they originated in China just because everything else began there."--Kung Fu/Qigong Magazine, December 2000, page 46.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Oso... calm the fizzuck down.


Im sure years of nunchaku practice are responsible for my mad ass skills with a balisong. :

Wouldn't it be easier to use the balisong with your hands?

[MasterKiller]

"Typically, the kungfu two section staff has longer rods (more like a three section staff that is shy one section) and/or a longer chain then the modern nunchaku. However, due to the influence of (Bruce) Lee, many contemporary kungfu masters have adopted the modern nunchaku version,..." Kungfu/Qigong Magazine, December 2000, page 94.

[BlueTravesty]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
"Typically, the kungfu two section staff has longer rods (more like a three section staff that is shy one section) and/or a longer chain then the modern nunchaku. However, due to the influence of (Bruce) Lee, many contemporary kungfu masters have adopted the modern nunchaku version,..." Kungfu/Qigong Magazine, December 2000, page 94.

In the branch of My Jhong Law Horn I'm studying, the nunchaku is taught. Sifu Jimmy told us it was due to the fact that Master Johnny Lee noticed some of his students having trouble with the introductory Saber form (which was originally the first weapon learned,) so he decided to import a form into the system for a weapon that would be easier and help to develop the necessary wrist skills for the Dao, hence the nunchaku. Just thought I would share.

[oasis]

Originally posted by BlueTravesty


In the branch of My Jhong Law Horn I'm studying, the nunchaku is taught. Sifu Jimmy told us it was due to the fact that Master Johnny Lee noticed some of his students having trouble with the introductory Saber form (which was originally the first weapon learned,) so he decided to import a form into the system for a weapon that would be easier and help to develop the necessary wrist skills for the Dao, hence the nunchaku. Just thought I would share.

so does that mean you guys are studying a form that otherwise would never have been taught? and did your teacher incorporate basic nunchaku maneuvers with typical my jhong footwork?

[yenhoi]

1st Area: Single stick, Sword, Axe, and Cane

2nd Area: Double Stick, Swords, and Axes

3rd Area: Stick and Dagger, Cane and Dagger, Sword and Dagger, Sword and Shield, Long and short Stick.

4th Area: Double Dagger, Double short sticks.

5th Area: Single Dagger, Single short stick.

6th Area: Palm stick, Double end Dagger.

7th Area: Panantukan (boxing), Panadiakan or Sikaran (kicking), Dumog, Layug, Buno, Detschon (grappling), Ankab - Pagkusi (bite & punch), Higot - Hampak (tie and hit), Hubad - Hampak (untie & hit), Lubad - Hampak (blend and hit.)

8th Area: Staff, Oar, Paddle, Spear, Spear and circular shield, Spear and rectangular Shield, Spear and Sword/Stick, Spear and Dagger, Two hand Method (heavy stick), Two hand Method (using stick.)

9th Area: Flexible weapons Sarong/Malong, Belt/Whip, Rope, Chain, Scarf, Head Band, hankerchief, Olisi Toyok, Tabak toyok, Yo-yo, Tabak Lubid, and Sting Ray Tail.

10th Area: Hand throwing weapons, Spear dagger, wooden splinter, spikes, coins, washer, stones, rocks, sand, mud, dirt, pepper, powder, any other object.

11th Area: Projectile weapons, Bow & Arrow, Blow gun, Sling shot, Portable cannon (Lantanka.)

12th Area: Mental, Emotional, Spiritual, Healing arts, Health skills, Rhythm/Dance, History, Philosophy, Ethics.


Here is a guy wanting to trade a FMA flexible weapons book for other videos/books:www.defend.net (http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=11793)

I think I also followed a link once at stick grapplers website (http://go.to/stickgrappler) to a small FMA system site that had a small amount of info on hankerchiefs, ropes, and bullwhips.

Kali/Silat/FMA generally teaches that all objects and/or weapons are basically used the same. This includes your hands, elbows, etc.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

I agree with you actually Oso. I view Bruce Lee in much the same way I view Quentin Tarantino. I can recognize the man's influence and good works. But I'm just not a fan of his work really. My main appreciation for Tarantino is that he promoted other filmmakers that I do really like (e.g., Robert Rodriguez). Much the same way, I really appreciate Dan Inosanto but recoqnize that I primarily know about Guro Dan because of his association with Bruce.

I do recognize the value of Bruce's contributions to training methodology, etc. But he is put on a pedestal.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

thanks, Ap. I was fearing I was going to get booted from the forum for my heresy. :D

I'm not saying Bruce is a bad thing at all, just a really good martial artist and not the demi-god a lot of people make him out to be.

btw, I'm about to PM you

[GeneChing]

...I wanna learn that wine jug. Now there's a practical form and they can't bust me for packing a wine jug (well, as long as I'm not driving...)

MK- Nice to know someone is reading me - thanks for quoting my research above! ;)

Oso - If we booted everyone off for heresy, there wouldn't be much discussion here now, would there? I'd certainly agree that Lee (and Tarantino) have been put up on pedastals, but FWIW, they crossed us over into the realm of pop culture on an international level. That's so significant. Is it worth being venerated as a demi-god? Well, is anything worth demi-godship? But certainly, it's silly to question it. Pop culture may not be the 'best', in fact, it seldom is, but it is the most popular, and it opens a dialog between us and the uninitiated.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by GeneChing
MK- Nice to know someone is reading me - thanks for quoting my research above! ;) I used those quotes because they seemed to suggest something different from your previous posts. :eek: Namely, that modern nunchuka (and sais) probably didn't originate in China, and that the induction of them into traditional CMA styles is a modern event brought about by the Bruce Lee craze. At least, that's what you said 4 years ago. ;)

[GeneChing]

That's true to some degree, but I qualified that by opening the suggestion with the word "typically". It's clear that Lee influenced many CMA people to add chuks to their system. In fact, the subject of this thread - Taiwan master Chen San Yen - was one of those influenced. What's interesting about this is that they almost always modify the traditional nunchuk by making a longer chain. At the same time, I have yet to be able to show that the chuk design that we all know and love did not exist in China prior to Lee. That's certainly possible too. I think the notion of parallel development is highly possible too. Irregardless, I don't think you can disqualify chuks as CMA weapons today. Their roots might be dubious, but they are definately part of the family, just as much as Bruce Lee is...