View Full Version : Wing Chun - a part of a bigger art?

06-01-2001, 05:39 PM
Hi guys!

I wanted to share some thoughts I had in the last weeks about Wing Chun.

I've been training several times with my new partner, a Chan Shaolin Xhi teacher, and the more I train and discuss with him, I get the stronger feeling of Wing Shun (or the principles of Wing Chun) being a part of his Kung Fu.

Maybe this picture makes it clearer: Take a complete system like Shaolin Xhi. There are a lot of parts, like self-defence, fitness, philosophy, meditation, health and so on. Out of this system choose the self-defence and refine this part and you'll get a very good self-defence system, like Wing Chun.

BTW: I've been training lately with a Okinawa Kempo master and in his system they use the same principles, too.

See you soon,


PS: Don't think that I'm changing the system, I'm just reflecting the sources of my system.

06-02-2001, 03:35 AM
Actually Wing Chun is a small subset of JKD. While Wing Chun still retains chain punches, a basic form of chi sao, a bit of mook jong training and very rudimentary trapping techniques, it is a mere shell of it's parent art.

I'm sorry guys, the line "a part of a bigger art" was just too good a straight line to pass by. :D

Incorigable Rogue

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

old jong
06-02-2001, 03:45 AM
Don,t forget the real name of chain punching is straight blast! And you can see the real unmodified footwork in "the big boss" movie! :D

...Hey!...It's fun!

Old jong and cie LTD.(TM)

06-03-2001, 11:27 PM
Kung Fu and most Martial Arts are based on natural laws, therefore you are going to see many of the same concepts and principles. As far as Wing Chun being from a larger system, Wing Chun is supposedly from several larger system. The movements in Wing Chun are extracts from several of the Shoalin Systems (at least that is one theory, there are others). One thing that makes Wing Chun different is that it is based on the human body and the way it moves as opposed to being based on the movements of animals. Therefore there may be movements that resemble animal movements, but only the ones that are consistent with human movement and structure are included.

Sorry for the serious post but once in a while I just can't resist. :D

06-04-2001, 05:06 AM
Moderator, please ban Highlander from the forum. :D

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

06-04-2001, 07:25 AM
Yeah, Highlander. What's wrong w/ you? I found your post serious and informative..., moderator, we don't tolerate post like that! Please ban him. :D

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art T " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

06-04-2001, 04:49 PM
Didn't Wing Chun derive from the Wu Mei style?

06-06-2001, 12:05 AM


06-06-2001, 12:41 AM

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

06-11-2001, 03:13 AM
hello all, my name is Ryan. i study Ving Tsun under Sifu Benny Meng, the curator of the Ving Tsun Museum. Sifu Meng is out to learn the truth about Ving Tsun and its history. He has now found it. Ving Tsun was not really a part of a bigger art. Ving Tsun was created when northern shaolin was invaded by the manchus' and forced the military and the monks of the northern temple 'who were loyal to the ming dynasty to flee south. In the southern temple the monks and the military formed a way of fighting and defending themselves against the manchu. What they developed was called Ving Tsun. that is just a really short version of the history. If there are any Questions you can post them or you can find your own answers at www.vtmuseum.org (http://www.vtmuseum.org)
Thank you all and i look forward to talking to you all sometime.... your Friend

06-11-2001, 03:16 AM
I also meant to just say that so when it comes down to it Ving Tsun was formed by the influence of the military and the monks...

mun hung
06-11-2001, 10:35 AM
I guess that's just one way of interpreting it. Anythings possible.

I've got a question for you, Ryan - what style of Wing Chun is Benny Meng teaching you at the museum? Is it Moy Yat's Ving Tsun or Hung Fa Yi? I'm curious about the differences.

06-11-2001, 07:19 PM
well He still teaches us the Yip Man Ving Tsun, but only as a secondary. i will say that i was in Si Taai Gungs(Yip Man)Family of ving tsun for almost a year, but Hung Fa Yi is just that much more complete. i thought that Yip Man was as far as it could go, but i was wrong, Hung Fa Yi is the top of the class. any thing that i had ever questioned in Yip Man was Answered in Hung Fa Yi. and just for a little more info Hung Fa Yi and another version called Chi Sim Ving tsun were the original styles of Ving Tsun.. If you havnt visited the website you should. www.vtmuseum.org (http://www.vtmuseum.org)

thanks again

06-11-2001, 08:54 PM
I'm curios about the contrasts. What is "incomplete" about Ip Man Wing Chun, and how does Hung Fa Yi complete those perceived discrepencies?


Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

kungfu cowboy
06-11-2001, 09:45 PM
I second!! :)

kungfu cowboy
06-11-2001, 10:04 PM
Hey Watchman, in that first picture, you look like you are gettin' down, and about to slap somebody five! :D (perhaps while simultaneously saying, "Dyyynnnnnooooomite!!") :p

06-11-2001, 11:11 PM
HI Guys,

I will immmediately ban Highlander from this forum for having the audacity to try and post informative and non-political posts :p Well.......maybe we should give him another chance ;)

Now to the other stuff;

Wu Mei is a system of Kung Fu which claims to have been developed by Ng Mui, the "historical" founder of the Wing Chun system. It supposidly contains more advanced techniques and practicianers of this art like to claim that Wing Chun is a "Beginning" version of their system. Not too sure I buy this though. I visited the school in NYC a couple of years ago and found them to be friendly enough. Some of the things they did looked, ah interesting but I did not see where Wing Chun was in any way inferior, of course I only visited a short time so I could have missed something.

As to HFY being a "complete" system of Wing Chun all I will say is that the jury is still out on that one. While I respect Sifun Meng and his attempts to research the history of Wing Chun I feel he may be a little prejudiced in his views. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this just that his view is one of several available. I would like to note that there is no "one" view which has emerged as the "true" "verifiable" history of our art so I will wait to pass judgment.

I personally believe, that Wing Chun represents a distilation of several other arts, some of which may well indeed have had their roots in Shaolin. According to most history ;) Wing Chun was developed as a quickly learned art used by rebels against the government. Due to the length of time it took to learn the Shaolin system it was impractical for producing any typeof large military force and something quicker needed to be devised. Many people believe that five (5) of the best masters of Shaolin got together and compared notes to come up with a system which would meet their needs. This system was a compilation of the concepts of other systems and in some cases was designed to combat systems already in existence as the Manchus also had access to martial arts and even some Shaolin systems. However, the temple was betrayed and the monks attacked before the system could be completed. The survivors scattered and Wing Chun was supposidly developed by teh Nun Ng Mui who passed it on to Yim Wing Chun after whome the art is named. Wu Mei was supposedly what Ng Mui developed after passing what she had started to develope to Yim Wing Chun. Yim Wing Chun further refined the art to suite her and taught it to her husband who named the art in her honor. And so on.............to the present day.

HFY history is a bit different making reference to being developed on the Red Boats. However, both versions agree on the developement of a quickly learned system refined to the most efficient and basic elements.

While I do not believe we will ever know the "truth" fo the history of Wing Chun, at least not one that EVERYONE will agree on, I think that it is safe to say Wing Chun, while possessing elements to be found within Shaolin, is a different system altogether. As to the inclusion of Chi Sau within the Shaolin system; I do not believe that this, particular, exercise is to be found within the Shaolin curriculim though there may very well be other types of sensitivity training to be found within. I know that Praying Mantis, Hsing YI, Tai Chi and Pakua all have their own versions of sensitivity drills so I can not see why they would not exist within other systems. However, they are not Chi Sau as done by Wing Chun.

Sorry for the length and tardy reply. Hope this is helpful. Back to work..............:(



06-11-2001, 11:28 PM
You guys slipping by the way, or just getting lazy.

I slipped up in one of my posts on that thread - mentioned "feeling the force" - and neither you, Highlander, nor Art saw fit to set in with any Star Wars cracks.

I'm seriously disconcerted by this and really expect more from you. :(


kungfu cowboy
06-11-2001, 11:41 PM
How very weird. I meant to post that in the thread with the pictures of you breaking. I could have sworn I did! Odd. :confused:

06-12-2001, 03:34 AM
What pictures? Where?

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

kungfu cowboy
06-12-2001, 12:37 PM
In the subhydroshock demonstration thread. (all he's missing is a nice velvet suit ;) )

06-12-2001, 04:02 PM
well Hung Fa Yi deals more with three dimensional space, and concentrates on the body structure a lot more. such as keeping your wrists straight at all times and things like that. ie.... the puch the wrist is not bent at the begining its starts off straight and stays that way so that if we were to encounter an object before our arm is extended out we do not hurt our wrist. well i gotta go to class......just check out the website it can tell you better than i can i havnt been it for a long time...

07-15-2001, 02:56 AM
Wing Chun was the larger system.