Switching from wing chun to hsingi

[donbdc]

Hello,
Iam making the switch after 6 years. I was hoping for some sdvice particularly from some one else who has.
Thanks
:)

[Fu-Pow]

might want to post over at emptyflower.com

[black and blue]

Hey... join the club! hehehehehe :)

I had 3 years time in Wing Chun and switched to Hsing-I about a month ago... so very, very early days for me. What advice can I give?

Errr.... none really... it's still very much a mind-f.u.c.k for me.

3 years in WC is certainly not long, but its odd what becomes habit. The way I naturally move, step, turn, align myself, punch, deal with energy etc... is now WC.... so it is very hard for me to do relatively simple exercises and drills in my Hsing-I class :(

My head understands perfectly what I should be doing... my body just doesn't want to do it. But even in the month or so I've trained things are starting to improve... so there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Also, for an internal system, it was a shock. You might not be using localized muscle and need arms like Arnie.... but you sure as h.e.l.l need strong and flexible legs... after my first week of training I couldn't get out of bed on Saturday morning. :D

My experience of the art is very limited, but I would say the hand techniques are more destructive than those of WC. I don't just mean the power generated for attack, but also the method for defence. In WC the hands/arms/bridge moulds or yeilds to an attack, but in the Hsing-I I have so far learnt the defensive hands actually defend against an attack whilst attacking the attack.

Nasty hits and earth-shattering slaps to joints and muscle groups.

D.a.m.n it I love it!!!!!!!!!

:cool:

[SPJ]

Good posts!

Wing Chun is softer in defense and you focus on attack. Everything starts and ends in the centerline.

Xing Yi 5 elements Quan: Pi Bun Zuan Pao Heng.

You use a force that is in different direction to "destroy" the opponent's force. You also move back a step.

You have to be accurate in the positioning and timing of your forearm to contact that of the opponent. Which is not difficult to do, you still focus on the centerline and move a little bit late after the opponent comes. It is like Tango. The opponent moves a step toward you. You move a step back and vice versa.

The reason for steps is that the Jin of your punch is so much greater from moving the whole body and not just that of your fist. You have to stamp your rear foot when punch so that it is not stoppable.

Every thing may seem to be mechanical. When you are better, you would know, you still have to be flexible in your steps and arms. You still throw your Xing Yi punch from your centerline. This way you know it is the same as in WC.

WC do more moves without changing steps much, because it is a short boxing at elbow length.

Xing Yi is fighting at arm length. It is a long boxing.

Remember any Wushu if mastered well is respected with fears.

There was a guy that he used half of a step Bun Quan and defeated everyone in China. (Ban Bu Bun Quan Da Pein Tien Xia)

The same with Wing Chun.

Why, Bun Quan may be used to neutralize and attack at the same time and so are the other 4.

Chinese martial arts are simple in techniques. But CMA are also rich in contents and rationales. You may practice 5 elements for years, you may still find new ways to use them.

Why? the 5 elements solve all the problems, whether the attack is to your left, your right, high, mid, low, from above down, or below upward. So is WC and any other Wushu.

Enough for now!

[donbdc]

Thanks for your responses and encouragement. Old habits and muscle memory die hard:(
but it is exciting in a way to be starting fresh working new muscle groups.
I was so confident in my leg strength just 2 weeks ago as we would spend 45 min in Yee Ge Kim Yeung Ma, but I can barely walk after class now.:p

[Buddy]

"You have to be accurate in the positioning and timing of your forearm to contact that of the opponent. Which is not difficult to do, you still focus on the centerline and move a little bit late after the opponent comes. It is like Tango. The opponent moves a step toward you. You move a step back and vice versa.

The reason for steps is that the Jin of your punch is so much greater from moving the whole body and not just that of your fist. You have to stamp your rear foot when punch so that it is not stoppable"

Hmmm. He steps in you step in first. Don't take a step back. You certainly don't have to stamp to use neijin and no punch is unstoppable. That's nonsense.

"Xing Yi is fighting at arm length. It is a long boxing"

More nonsense. Xingyi is an infighting style that can be used on the outside as well. The big difference between WC and XY is the shenfa. Xingyi uses an entirely different method of body movement than Wing Chun.
Buddy

[SPJ]

How do you do a Bun Quan?

What does a Bun Quan mean?

How do you defend against a Bun Quan?

Agreed on the Nei Li part.

Agreed on everything is "stoppable".

Of course, if you want to attack, you move your step in.

What if you want a defense, move a step back would give some room and distance. Isn't it that how you practice Xing Yi Duel (Duei Nien)?

True. The theory of Xing Yi is to attack and attack regardless of the opponent's move. So does this mean unstoppable or not?

[Buddy]

<How do you do a Bun Quan?

Do you mean in the form? Beng just means power going backward to forward, not form.

<What does a Bun Quan mean?

See above

<How do you defend against a Bun Quan?

Each time is different.

<What if you want a defense, move a step back would give some room and distance. Isn't it that how you practice Xing Yi Duel (Duei Nien)?

Stepping directly backward is seldom a good idea. I thought we were talking about practical usage and not formwork. My mistake.

Buddy

[blooming lotus]

since you guys are the hsing -yi pros and I am no-one ...you'd have to be up on who's who in hsing - yi right? every teacher has their specialty form ..do you guys know who the leading hsing-yi ers are?? and where they're teaching??

[SPJ]

Xing Yi is popular thruout China. Every family or every Pai has different interpretations. If you want to count, there will be in the hundreds.

My teacher was from Shan Xi (mountain west) province.

But for the most part, they are the same. (Da Tong Xiao Yi)

Agreed. When you fight with Xing Yi, there is no turning back. You attack on and on like an avalanche with no stopping.

Agreed. When you are familiar with the external forms (Xing Yu Wai), you do have to practice Nei Gong.

Chicken is talking to the duck. (Gi Tong Ya Jiang)

[Buddy]

At the risk of bringing the unhinged backbreaker into this, I would suggest going to emptyflower.com. There are folks there much more knowlegable than I about xingyi. I'm a bagua guy.

[backbreaker]

Emptyflower is lame ;) . Second, Buddy is a Gao( the Yang Taiji of Bagua, which is pretty good) propagandist , and just wants his fellow Gao guys getting praise and an image of Reality self defense real street defense. So I'm gonna counter th EF fanboys with, that if you are impressed with Buddy, it is YOU who have never seen good IMA. Not to say he is no good, but as impressive as the Gin Soon clips with the orange shirts, and that Gao was the wrong style for the EF moderator to "buy" into;) They are spammers except that the EF likes them. But no more valid in combat than any IMA, because they are unproven. Basically the Gao guys PM the moderator all the time and brainwash him, because he doesn't know really, he just actually beleives whatever they tell him, but he doesn't know.

[black and blue]

Backbreaker,

What internal arts and lineage do you train? And how does your training differ?

[backbreaker]

I really don't know how the systems differs. I practiced for at least 5 years and taught CMC Taiji in the Tchoung ta Tchen system. I now practice Chen zhou kui Taiji but I am not an expert or instructor or high level. I have done IMA with a tchoung ta tchen instructor since I was 8 years old( not that I'm nutriding on that, or saying that someone with less years can't beat me)

The main difference between me and these guys that don't like me and want me banned from the internet is, that my training is geared towards being a fighter ( IMO anyways), but their training is too deadly and only for the street. They can't just say, " we challenge you to a parking lot brawl" ( which they did) "now we've lifted youre skirt up , we win". WTF? I'm done with really doing anything of consequence or asking about other styles, because obviously the internet is not where it's at for any worthwhile info or discussion, but these guys don't get that, and take it so seriously. They'll probably come back about how they lifted my skirt up, and I'm like huh?

Remember I'm responding to them, and I just come around here a bit to give my opinion and say what I need to, but you can't talk on a forum where they'll just start talking about the street and reality based training, and challenge you to a street fight, and say they win. That's not real fighting, and means nothing, number one, on the street I hit you when you weren't looking, number two I continued into the pavement. If all they have is " the street challenge" then they have nothing to say to me IMO. My plan is to be a real fighter, not a steet fighter. If I getr injured I don't want it to be from street fighting

In fact, the Gao guys on the internet are extremely arrogant and know it alls. Well, another thing is that monastery arts( such as qigong) are where it's at, and all the Gao guys I've met on the net were against that. So they make me think the high level meditation of bagua is lost

[blooming lotus]

alot of folks around here that are not so intimate with internal art have a totally different perspective on everything from training to life philosphies...don't take it to heart..some people will believe no matter what you tell them, others will not believe no matter what you tell them...you can't sit around crying about though, just do what you know;)

[SPJ]

I got sidetracked.

If you study both WC and Xing Yi, execellent!

Let us test your knowledge or skill over a cup of tea. It is like a chess play. You know your Wushu, so does your opponent.

We only have to talk about it. No need to do actual physical fights or street parking lot senario. This is done thruout Chinese history. All the High hands in Wushu forest only have to talk, they know who will win. Actually, the challenge always start with talking first.

Any way;

How do you use WC to defeat Xing Yi?

How do you use Xing Yi to defeat WC?

How do you use WC to defeat WC?

How do you use Xing Yi to defeat Xing Yi?

I though that Kung Fu forum is like a chess club and every body Kung Fu fighting with talks as in the old way. I kind of disappointed at too many personal things discussed.

For example, I move my left foot forward and right Beng fist. What do you do in WC? You left Lan and right Si Zi Quan to the opponent's nose.
What do you do in Xing Yi? You Heng or you Zuan or you Pi?

On and on.

I am too old for this. I go back to my Za Zen mattress. Armitopho.

[CD Lee]

The reason for steps is that the Jin of your punch is so much greater from moving the whole body and not just that of your fist. You have to stamp your rear foot when punch so that it is not stoppable"

Hmmm. He steps in you step in first. Don't take a step back. You certainly don't have to stamp to use neijin and no punch is unstoppable. That's nonsense.

"Xing Yi is fighting at arm length. It is a long boxing"

More nonsense. Xingyi is an infighting style that can be used on the outside as well. The big difference between WC and XY is the shenfa. Xingyi uses an entirely different method of body movement than Wing Chun.
Buddy


I could not agree more with this response.

Don't step back. Xingyi is very much an inside game. I am not a Wing Chun guy, but if you are planning on stepping back in Xingyi regularly, switch styles. Your weight is already on your back foot for forward instant energy and movement. Front weighted styles would allow you to step back much easier. You will be fighting your body and physics attempting that strategy with xingyi.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by black and blue

My experience of the art is very limited, but I would say the hand techniques are more destructive than those of WC. I don't just mean the power generated for attack, but also the method for defence. In WC the hands/arms/bridge moulds or yeilds to an attack, but in the Hsing-I I have so far learnt the defensive hands actually defend against an attack whilst attacking the attack.

Nasty hits and earth-shattering slaps to joints and muscle groups. No offence but I don't think you were in WC long enough, or maybe if this is your observation about WC defence after three years you maybe didn't have a very good teacher.

Half of WC defence is as you describe. The other half is as you describe the HI defence:
eg,
biu to the base of the bicep on an incoming short hook before following through with a palm to the jaw,
sinking chum jarn to the base of the bicep while fut-ing the jaw in upper garn sau,
pak to the elbow to disrupt the whole body structure and force the opponent onto their back foot whilst pressing with another strike,
jum to the arm as a structure breaker, or to the weak point just above the hip,
the sinking elbow to the wrist in tan sau,
the elbow strike to the straightened arm in the lap/bong movement,
etc...

Out of interest, why did you change over?


Back to the question:
Going by BnB's description of the defensive hands, it would seem that HI and WC are quite similar in that respect. Could somebody else with experience of both comment? Or would somebody else with more experience of HI like to add/disagree with BnB's description?


CDLee
Your weight is already on your back foot for forward instant energy and movement. Front weighted styles would allow you to step back much easier. You will be fighting your body and physics attempting that strategy with xingyi.Again this explanation could be WC! Anybody care to comment further on the differences?


Buddy
The big difference between WC and XY is the shenfa. Xingyi uses an entirely different method of body movement than Wing Chun.This is more like what I'm after, though slightly intriguing... what do you mean? You don't use your heart, muscles, bone structure, legs...? :p :D OK OK I'm being facetious but... what DO you mean?

I'll ask again on emptyflower when I've got time to join up... and will of course compare notes with my HI sifu when I start next week to run concurrently with my (ongoing) 9 years of WC...!

[black and blue]

Hi Matt,

Well, I will be the first to admit my three years of WC is short. I learnt, SNT and Chum Kiu and had spent about 2 years training Chi Sau. Hadn't looked at BJ or the dummy form.

But we played with sparring and had some good, heavy training sessions. I trained three times a week in class and met a few guys a couple of times a week for private training where we could play with ideas we'd learnt and pad up for some heavier sparring.

I'd say it was enough time to get a feel for the art, though, of course, I was a long way off from mastering it... if that is ever truly possible.

My comments were simply that HI is more destructive. Sure, WC has it too, but IMO, to a lesser degree. If we assume Tan, Bong and Fook to be the three mother techniques, while each is wonderful, none are destructive in nature.

They can, of course, destroy structure, but I'm talking about limb destruction specifically.

Emptyflower has some very knowledgable people - my HI knowledge is scratching the surface.

But on this forum, EvolutionFist trains HI and has also had a little WC experience, I believe.

Why did I shift?

Always had an interest in the internal arts, was hampered by work committments that seriously messed with my WC, and was introduced to a Hsing-I teacher who is, I believe, really something special. Was an opportunity I would have been stupid to pass up on.

So, 9 years in WC! Great. Why are you looking to learn HI?

Regards

Duncan

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by black and blue
My comments were simply that HI is more destructive. Sure, WC has it too, but IMO, to a lesser degree. If we assume Tan, Bong and Fook to be the three mother techniques, while each is wonderful, none are destructive in nature.Tan, bong and fuk are great. I don't assume they are the mother techniques, and more importantly, nor did my sifu. Pak, fut, gan, jum, chum jarn etc etc are destructive in nature. Even the rollover elbow from a bong can **** up your opponent's arm, or turn into a dropping elbow... I wasn't having a pop, I was just wondering what you were taught...


Why are you looking to learn HI?
I don't wanna talk about the WC teachers where I am! I've been in an informal group with a lot of experienced practioners for a long time now, and like you I've just been offered an intro to a HI teacher who sounds pretty good. We'll see.

[black and blue]

LOL! Don't want to talk about them? Okay, that's cool - I respect it.

Memories come back to me - I remember you now from the Wing Chun forum on this site. If memory serves, the WC you learnt is a fairly hard version (as compared to, say, the WingTsun of Leung Ting).

Good luck with the Hsing-I! I would love it if you kept in contact to exchange notes regarding the shift from WC to HI.

Particular problems for me:

* Position and use of the hip - the 'tucked' hip from my WC doesn't conform to the HI motions I now use.

* The position of the shoulders - far less in the way of shoulders square to the opponent.

* The variation in weight distribution.

* Although the WC I learnt talked about full body unity, it seems more apparent in the Hsing-I.

Would be good to hear how you adjust - for me it is not an easy shift, but everyone is different.

WC and HI in Japan! For some reason that brought a smile to my face

;)

[SPJ]

Everything is conditional.

Pi Jin: from top down.

Beng Jin: from rear forward.

Zuan Jin: from bottom upward.

Pao: one hand upward laterally. the other hand forward.

Heng Jin: left to right or right to left laterally.

Most important of all is the whole body Jin or Zhen Jin. Every move needs to have a Zhen Jin from your whole body.

When you neutralize the opponent's Jin by using spiral Jin and a lateral Jin to his direction of Jin.

You "destroy" his Jin and his fighting posture or balance.

Step back would make most of the opponent's Jin less effective if not no good at all.

Yes. When you step back half a step to neutralize the opponent, you are ready to advance and attack. Assuming, both of you are using XI. You do not step back "regularly". True.

But both of you only advance, you would be head to head and body to body. You need elbow and hip to Zhou and Kau.

True. XI is about attack and attack and attack. XI is not about stepping back all the time.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by black and blue
Memories come back to me - I remember you now from the Wing Chun forum on this site. If memory serves, the WC you learnt is a fairly hard version (as compared to, say, the WingTsun of Leung Ting).Actually no, I originally learnt from Sam Kwok's school which is softer than Leung Ting's I would say. Then admittedly I learnt some big man's WC through which I tried and fairly well succeeded in sticking to my softness. So my WC is soft, tho I've always liked to play hard when the time is right!


Good luck with the Hsing-I! I would love it if you kept in contact to exchange notes regarding the shift from WC to HI.Thanks, I will.

The hip-tuck may be a problem, but I've practised enough other things for the weight distribution changes not to be a problem. I've always aimed for the unity in every art I've studied.


WC and HI in Japan! For some reason that brought a smile to my face Hmmm, I've also started shoot-wrestling, which is mostly western with a bit of JJ and er Brazilian JJ thrown in... one day I'll get back to the Japanese arts!

Thanks for the answer - I'll try and keep those things in mind.

[Mr Punch]

Thaks also to you SPJ... when I've started Hsing I, I'm sure I'll have some idea of what you are actually talking about! when I've translated it from the Japanese, into your transliterations of the Chinese and then back into English!!!

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Mat
Actually no, I originally learnt from Sam Kwok's school which is softer than Leung Ting's I would say. Then admittedly I learnt some big man's WC through which I tried and fairly well succeeded in sticking to my softness


Hi Mat. Just curious..who did you learn your 'big man' WC from? Why did you switch to that from Sam Kwok if you wanted to stay 'soft'? Was it out of neccesity/location change etc? I've chopped and changed a bit myself- My first WC experience was in Ip Chun and Ip Ching before I switched to WSL.

By the By I met up w/ a guy with about 9 yrs in Xsing yi and 'exchanged techniques' as they say. I was a bit dissapointed with what he did- the stuff which was direct and practical I thought i already have that in my WC and the stuff that wasnt made me think- I dont need that in my wing chun. Of course im probably seeing things through my wc lens:D

[Mr Punch]

The teacher change was due to location change. I'm not gonna give you any more details on the board, but if you're interested for reference purposes, PM me. I've told that sifu directly what I make of him: he's not bad at what he does, but it wasn't in my opinion particularly great WC, or particularly practical (in fact in some cases, dangerous), largely geared to muscly types and he couldn't teach it to most beginners (lost most of the skinnies and the chicks).

Put it this way, there's no acrimony, and there are a couple of things I could still learn from him (the weapons forms) and will if I get the chance/time/money.

As for the Hsing I, a couple of my WC partners who've trained with him say the teacher's very good, and I trust their opinions. As for why he's so good, and whether I'll agree with them... I'll let you know next week!

[Buddy]

Hi Mat,
I haven't been following this thread but to address your question... I can't. Anything I can say to you about it (knowing only a little about Wing Chun) will allow you to say "we do that'. I assure you, you don't. I am going to assume your future Xingyi teacher is worth his salt and I'll say you will see it. I'm not trying to duck the question, but if you stick with the Xingyi for over a year or so you'll know. Sorry I can't be more clear.
Buddy

[Mr Punch]

Cheers Buddy, appreciated.

Of course, if you don't know anything about WC, but you do know about HI, I would be asking for some detailed descriptions of a bunch of HI techniques, drills and exercises, so that I can safely say 'we do something like that'. Of course, the less detailed the description , the more safely I can say 'we do that' until the description gets more detailed and I would be having to modify it to 'we do something a bit like that'!

(Note, I haven't said 'we do that' about anything that anyone's mentioned about HI yet! I said if BnB's description of HI defensive hands was accurate, it is not exclusive of WC defensive hands.)

Of course this is a real tall order, and very time-consuming, and somewhat pointless as I'll be starting and finding out for myself next week, if this guy's any good.

So another alternative for a starting point for you people who do know about HI, and are interested in the comparison, without having crossed hands with or studied much WC, would be to offer a description of some basic principles, like the WC kuen kit (I'll post some of these when I have time, or they're probably easy enough to search for).

Of course, Buddy, not taking the ****, but at some point I'd be interested to know why you're so convinced that WCers do not have some similar principles in our arsenal, having admitted that you don't know so much about it...? ;)

[black and blue]

Hi Mat,

Well, if you're lucky and the instructor is good... you will see the differences. They are different arts, naturally, which is why I have such a tough time, heheeheh.

Your WC lens could of course be a problem. Nine years is a long time to study something - you will, I'm sure, find it hard to adjust. But that said, you already play with various arts, so maybe it will easier for you than it is for me.... but, slowly but surely, I'm getting there :)

In two words, the 'biggest' difference I see is "power generation" - and the results of it. Seen some big hitters in WC and WT, but nothing like I've been exposed to here.

I hate the whole "my art is better than yours" idiocy, but Hsing-I certainly seems better for me personally. There are certainly some similarities between the two arts (notion of center line, simultaneous attack and defence, aggressive nature, direct approach etc), but the implementation is very different.

Looking forward to your post after you've visited the HI guy... but fear from a quick glance you walk away saying: "Naw, I'll stick to my WC as what I've seen in HI is pretty much the same."

Which, as Buddy says, is totally wrong and you be denying the Chi!!!! ;)

Duncan

[Mr Punch]

LOL, I don't have any lenses except a fighting lens, or at least a fighting application lens... WC was my second major art, and I've picked up a fair few grades in a fair few other arts, sparring exp and unfortunately real exp over the years.

I think you're looking at me through a BnB's own history lens!

I have never 'played' with any other art... I've even my non-martial taichi in sparring through application of its principles to my other arts techniques...

Fortunately I don't get confused by doing more than one art at a time, and have only rarely slipped into stances or whatever from my others... as long as I can use it I don't care what it is!

I've heard from my WC buddies that this guy's power generation is good, that he's got 'something'... if he's as good as they say, I'll stick with it, if not I'll have to reassess my time, having to divide it between WC, battoujutsu/iaido/kendo which I want to get back to, and shoot-wrestling as it is.

I know HI is different, I'm going in with an empty cup. The question I was asking is in what ways!

And still nobody's answered

The big difference between WC and XY is the shenfa. Xingyi uses an entirely different method of body movement than Wing Chun.

what this is!!!

And wtf is this...

In two words, the 'biggest' difference I see is "power generation" - and the results of it. ???!!!:confused:

If it's too much typing, esp since I'm starting next week... I understand!!!
But please, will people stop trying to tell me how I'm seeing things or how I'm going to see things, or pretending to 'explain' things in two words!!!:)

Cheers for your contributions.


I'll let you know what I think next week!

[black and blue]

LOL :)

Well, I look forward to hearing your impressions. Summing it up in two words was far easier than trying to put it into a clear, concise post that at present (today is my press day.... d.amn I hate Mondays) I don't have time for.

When you've been to the club and seen/participated in, I'll read ya post and try and write more myself.

My understanding is very basic, but I'll be happy to write more on what 'I' see the art to be from my experience so far.

Good luck.

Duncan

Ps. The BnB lens was nice clear by the way - I approached the Hsing-I classes as I've done with those of Taiji, Ninjutsu, BJJ, Savate, TKD, Preying Mantis, Karate etc etc. I love checking out other arts, and try to unscrew my Wing Chun/WingTsun head when I do so

:p

The only arts I've trained in by the way are Shotokan Karate for a few years when very young, the briefest stint in Ninjutsu (really, really, not for me) and three years of Wing Chun/WingTsun.

Everything else has been watching, talking to practitioners of other arts, and, when I've been lucky and they've been open to it, a little sparring.

[bodhitree]

I just recently started xing yi, it does seem quite awkward at this point compared to what i've already had experiance with. I'm sure just like any big switching, once you get used to it it will be more comfortable.

[foolinthedeck]

i have 10 years of wing chun, and i was looking for more internals too, would love to try xingyi but there is none for hundreds of miles in wales. So i have started yang taiji - and to be honest i can see more connections than i expected between that and my wc.
lets remember that theres only one elephant, and as my wc sigong rawcliffe said to me personally - "good wing chun is not necessarily internal, its what you make it"

And then there is peter ralston's cheng hsin which i have some access to... and he doesnt even really call it internal..

so i believe the key as ever is finding the right teacher and then following your own path internal or otherwise.

also, i really like the xingyi nei gong - would do the movements but i am cautious of only following a book.

also, i like jet li in THE ONE, using xing yi - i know it was movie xing yi but still seemed very wing chun in principle.

so, all the best to all of you starting xingyi from a wing chun background. the most important thing in life to me is skill, be skillful and just do it.

[Buddy]

Mat,
Phew! You're asking for something quite complex to be put into a short space. I could show you quite readily but let me try here, very very briefly. I only know a little about WC so you'll have to take this on faith. If you just say, yes we do that too then I'm going to leave you to your own devices, fair? In WC, for the most part you work out of the "yi jee kim yeung ma" stance right? XY comes from the north where many style tend to start out using the whole body rather than this static posture. IMO a northern style or even (at the risk of agreeing with Fu-cares) Chot Li Fut would be a better style to preface XY. Not that you cannot get beyond it but internal body method is really subtle.

[Mr Punch]

Cheers Buddy.

I really never did say 'we do it like that'... you can check the thread to find out! :D But if it makes you happier, I'll start by saying that so far these descriptions culd be describing completely different dynamics to WC! :D

Don't agree with your assessment of the WC stance, and unfortunately don't have time to detail why not today. But I do agree that WC stances start from that static position which doesn't necessarily engender whole body movement, so if that's the way Hsingyi starts out, yes it is different... in practice (tho I still don't know if it's necessarily so many miles off in principle).

Anyway, I'm afraid you're gonna have to wait with baited breath after all that, cos I couldn't go tonight: my introducer wasn't going cos he had to work late, nor were my WC buddies, so I didn't no how to get there... :(

I'll give you the first installment next week... in the meantime, thanks Buddy for rejoining us, and cheers to the others for your insights too...

[Mr Punch]

Well, that was interesting.

First off, sorry to have kept you in suspense, but after all that he's not straight HI.

His main arts are Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu and HI. And, he is teaching mainly aspects from these arts, to counter what he perceives as a shortfall in them individually (maybe... maybe just because he wants to make up his own thing!). This makes for an interesting combination.

His body unity is excellent. His ability to generate energy in any direction is quite impressive. His resistance to being manipulated/jerked about is, from what I've seen so far, better than anyone else's I've seen. I don't know if this is because he is good at linking/delinking, because his relaxation into his root is good, because I suck (highly doubtful! :D ), because I've only so far tested him in that newbie demo kind of way in his framework and not by using much I already know (highly likely, but it doesn't take away from his skills and the distinct probability that he could probably kick my ass all ways from Sunday), or because of a factor I don't yet know (possible but I have been around a bit, so the chances of coming across something this phenomenally new are slim).

So far, the biggest problem has been simply that the stance work is lower and harder (as in physically demanding, not hard as in the physical quality) than anything I've done for a few years.

Other points in no particular order:

1) He uses some aiki exercises and principles, which I was good at years ago when I was doing aiki 8 times a week after I got shodan, but have lost. He does them better than any aikidoka/jujutsuka that I've come across. I suspect that this is because he's incorporating fajing/peng/an' ting!

2) I haven't tried full-on hitting him yet, but my attempts to engage him in a grappling/locking context have failed. My energy appears to have been sunk into his root, and redirected in no uncertain, esoteric terms back into my suddenly stiffened body! This may be as a result of practising more WC than grappling for the last four years or so. It could be the fault of WC form work (stopping the energy - of course I'm always looking for flow, but any air strike is going to result in a break, however slight), chi sau (again I try not to pull but you obviously can't unload fully in chi sau! - back to the heavy bag, and the dummy if I can get my hands on one!) or again, my general suckiness (er, sorry, I mean, eternal beginner's mind! :D ). With more of a conscious attempt at a grappling energy (sticking to his core from wing chun and the unbendable arm/'hosepipe-ki'/sinking and rising spiral/keeping weight underside from aiki) I felt like I was trying to use purely strength, and failing dismally. This could of course have been due to having a very full work schedule (inc a lot of work and commute on Sat itself) tho it doesn't seem to stress me out, or it could be due to the deep unfamiliar stance work beforehand tightening up my hips and stopping my energy there...

3) Any attempts to explain what we're doing are going to be hampered by KFO posters' unfamiliarity with aiki principles and terminology, and by my rustiness in CMA internal terminology. I think this guy will be interesting to the people on this board so if anyone is interested in me occasionally updating my progress, let me know, and I'll compare notes with my internals buddy whose Japanese is native level, for translation assistance! Hopefully, I can then be describing the work from a perspective which you'll all be able to understand if not agree with!

He seems like a fighter. Be interesting to hook him up with my shooto teacher (a pro fighter). That'd be a trad vs modern really worth seeing!

Of course, if nobody's interested I'll just keep training, and the next you'll hear from me will be a vast ball of chi in the east, emanating peace, goodwill and shattered spines Romeo Must Die stylee!!! :D

[Mr Punch]

Oh and Buddy, I still disagree with your analysis of the WC stance (to say 'In WC, for the most part you work out of the "yi jee kim yeung ma" stance' is not only not 'right', in fact, it's the complete opposite of right!), but you'll have to wait for another day to find out why (if you even give a toss!)!

I do now agree with your supposition that HI body mechanics are very very different, and comparitively, even in a deep stance the body unity and power generation are much much more apparent than those of WC from the word go.

[NeedsPractice]

- Wing chun tries to develop the ability to issue power, in a smaller distance, so there is little momentum build up to add to your power/strike which also means it will take less time and not be seen.

I believe both styles require body unity, for maximum effect, the hsing practicioner I beleive will over a long period of time be able through internalization to issue power in smaller and smaller movements that are harder to see. Whereas the wing chun practioner starts small and tries to get smaller, and smaller.
Wing chun also requires a greater degree of precision in delivery( almsot pinpoint accuracy). Sort of like shooting a small caliber automatic vs a pump action shotgun. In an elevator or a small space the small hand gun may be easier to use. In a more open space the shotgun may be more handy.

[black and blue]

Matt says:

"I do now agree with your supposition that HI body mechanics are very very different, and comparitively, even in a deep stance the body unity and power generation are much much more apparent than those of WC from the word go"

Glad to hear you saw/felt something you liked. Keep us updated with how things develop.

Will you continue to train your Wing Chun, by the bye?

Regards

Duncan

[Mr Punch]

Yep.

Currently WC, this new geezer, shooto with regularity, and occasional outlets for my aiki and kendo.

[Christopher M]

Keep us updated!

From a neijia perspective, most wing chun (and aiki for that matter) frames look "tight" to me, so being used to wing chun you might feel overly round or open at the elbows while trying to get used to xingyi. Similarly, wing chun partner drills don't seem to be trying to connect with and abuse the other guy's center as much, so the xingyi spirit might seem more active and confrontational than you are used to. As with starting any new art, you'll probably have 'invest' by giving up some of the stuff that currently works for you (at least while practicing the new art) in order to get a 'return' in the skill of this new way of doing it, which can be frustrating.

The teacher sounds like a good find. Liberal doses of hands-on with the teacher is most excellent fuel for learning, and what you describe in that paragraph about his "body unity" sounds like the very focus of what you wanna see in good internals.

[foolinthedeck]

sounds really great mat.
i for one really value your opinions, both from you as an individual and as you are able to give a perspective on chinese martial arts that isnt purely european or american or australian. There are very few people on either the wing chun or internal arts noards giving that japanese perspective. theres also the fact that i valued your comments on the last samurai :)

so please, do keep us updated and if this thread slips by teh wayside just post another on hsingyi.

:)

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Mat
(to say 'In WC, for the most part you work out of the "yi jee kim yeung ma" stance' is not only not 'right', in fact, it's the complete opposite of right!)


In My WC all the stances I use are basic derivations of YGKYM, which is to say that they share the same fundamental properties namely

- Head up

- Back straight

- Pelvis pushed up and forward

-Centre of Gravity centrally distributed

-at least one foot (i.e. the rear foot) turned inward/inverted



On another note I have just started Chen Taiji So Ill let you know how I get on

At the moment the main differances I see are that In Jam Jong/standing post the feet are parralel not inverted and the pelvis is 'sunken', not pushed up and out like in YGKYM.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i for one really value your opinions, both from you as an individual and as you are able to give a perspective on chinese martial arts that isnt purely european or american or australian. There are very few people on either the wing chun or internal arts noards giving that japanese perspective. ...Cheers, but actually, I'm as English as you come! I can't give you a Japanese perspective on MA or anything else, but through my teachers and my occasional translation efforts, I hope I can get you a Japanese perspective on a few things.


so please, do keep us updated and if this thread slips by teh wayside just post another on hsingyi. :) I'll give it a go. It's useful for me to blog sometimes, and I may as well do it in public, hopefully giving you guys a bit of something rather than just on my harddrive.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
In My WC all the stances I use are basic derivations of YGKYM, which is to say that they share the same fundamental properties namelyFair enough. I can't say that about mine. When I started sure: now they've evolved so though I'm using the principles of YGKYM it's more to supplement my natural way of moving and fighting... eg...
- Head upI don't hold with keeping my head up all the time in WC or any other kind of fighting. I don't even hold with the theory that's sometimes popular with wingchunners that in some way it wrecks your energy generation/root/fill-in-the-blank to sometimes put you head down. What does wreck your energy generation/root/f-i-t-b is getting a big fat punch in the head because you didn't move it!

If we take YGKYM (I'm gonna call it the Y stance cos it's quicker for me to type and I'm busy!) and slt, you are practising sinking your centre of balance and centre of gravity in a seemingly static manner. So, when you punch you are practising punching with just your lats, delts and tricep/biceps action, with as much relaxation as poss in the other muscles. It also trains you to be able to breathe normally in a hard stance while moving your arms. It also trains the thigh, stomach, knee and pelvic floor muscles.

However, if you look at opening and closing the stance, the outwards/inwards movement to get into Y-stance, you are practising knee-locking/uprooting techniques, rooting through the bubbling well and the heel, and opening and closing the qua (if you don't wanna get mystical like I don't, this amounts to relaxing the muscles in your waist and practising pulling and sinking down by rolling your outer butt muscles out rather than forcing your knees in to the detriment of your knees' health, plus 'cupping' to the floor: pulling down to root by using simple leverage of your foot/toe muscles in a sideways and slightly rocking motion...).

Thus you have the root practice for the kicks which come in chum kiu, plus the fluid and relaxed waist for the turns in chum kiu, not to mention a tech in itself (the knee lock-outs)... which also resurfaces in the huen bo and man/jum sequences in biu jee.

Even keeping low and level in the opening of the Y-stance for slt, you have to some degree a vertical rippling movement going up and down the spine as you settle into the root, from the perineum up to the top of the head as it assumes its characteristic thread-pulling-from-the-heavens upwards position. this is also found to a larger degree in standing postures like the five and six hand chikung sets in yang style taichi, and the opening of the long form, plus large bear stretches his back and python prepares to strike.

This miniscule movement is what provides the basis for the natural walking kicks in WC and the power in all those daft seemingly arms-only strikes. It is also what helps you absorb strikes by rolling with them, and by correctly rolling you head up/down or to the sides, it even helps you to 'load' for eg the bounce punch/upcut from ck and many other upward/downward strikes.

So by tucking the head, a la principles from the Y-stance, you can protect it from strikes to some extent, and use the motion to follow on to your next strike.

While this is using a principle from the Y-stance, in my WC it's a bit of a big stretch or even misleading to say that I'm 'working out of the Y-stance' as was Buddy's initial assertion.
- Back straightSee above! Fighting with your back completely straight at all times is restricting your movement in the vertical plane. Any straight punches coming from twisting your waist horizontally are fine, any upcuts, downward crushing palms like in po pai/any jum sao, are not going to have any power.
- Pelvis pushed up and forwardI would say tilted, I certainly wouldn't say pushed up or forward, otherwise you're stopping the power of your punches at your waist.
-Centre of Gravity centrally distributedI'm not gonna go there! It's always been a big debate in WC, but since my lineage is all chewed up, and people with a pristine lineage don't tend to listen to logic ( :D :p half j/k!) just suffice it to say that if you mean weight evenly balanced on both feet, I disagree, and if you mean that at some times you don't want your centre of gravity to be off centre, I wanna fight you... you'll be a pushover!!! :D
-at least one foot (i.e. the rear foot) turned inward/invertedIf I start in the Y, and without moving my right leg, turn to my left (as in ck and bj), moving my left foot ninety degrees and out towards my left, I'm in a stance with my left foot forward and at forty-five degrees and my right (back) foot also at forty-five degrees... OUTWARDS.

On another note I have just started Chen Taiji So Ill let you know how I get onCool, please do!

I can't give anyone an update on my internals class, cos my American army footballer wrestling partner pulled all the shoulder muscles in my right shoulder in a neck lock, so I'm ****ed.

Whatever it was got better by last Thursday, then twanged out again on Saturday running with a backpack, so I'm hoping it's better again by next class (next Saturday).

[black and blue]

You mentioned that your H-I instructor also teaches/mixes Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

I have the opportunity to learn this... well, something very similar (Takeda-Ryu aikijutsu)... have anything interesting to share about these arts?

I'm sure you've had exposure to them ;)

Cheers

Duncan

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Mat! thanks for the long considered reply


Originally posted by Mat
Fair enough. I can't say that about mine. When I started sure: now they've evolved so though I'm using the principles of YGKYM it's more to supplement my natural way of moving and fighting

This strikes me as a classic case of putting the cart before the horse! The salient point is this: You should train YGKYM so that it becomes your natural way of moving and fighting. My instructor has been in WC for close to 35 years and I see YGKYM in everything he does!!


Originally posted by Mat

I don't hold with keeping my head up all the time in WC or any other kind of fighting. I don't even hold with the theory that's sometimes popular with wingchunners that in some way it wrecks your energy generation/root/fill-in-the-blank to sometimes put you head down. What does wreck your energy generation/root/f-i-t-b is getting a big fat punch in the head because you didn't move it!


To me, the situation you describe is a Bil Gee scenario. I.E. I've made a mistake; Im going to get hit/I am getting hit- what can I do to minimise my losses? And yes there are situations where you might do this (what you suggest). However to me WC is like chess in that you have to think more than one move ahead. Yes by ducking you may avoid the first attack but what about the next? Conversley by being upright with your head up and your weight centrally distributed you are in a 'golden mean' or 'goldilocks' position i.e. you can move with equal ease in any direction.


Originally posted by Mat

If we take YGKYM (I'm gonna call it the Y stance cos it's quicker for me to type and I'm busy!) and slt, you are practising sinking your centre of balance and centre of gravity in a seemingly static manner. So, when you punch you are practising punching with just your lats, delts and tricep/biceps action, with as much relaxation as poss in the other muscles. It also trains you to be able to breathe normally in a hard stance while moving your arms. It also trains the thigh, stomach, knee and pelvic floor muscles.


As I see it the fundamental point about YGKYM is that it establishs a 'facing' position. And this is important because WC is about (in the main, although there are of course exceptions) fighting from this kind of position. This allows for the use of both hands equally- for simultaneous attack and defence- since both hands are an equal distance from the target. Moreover by occupying the centre and covering your gates you are 'mapping' the space in front of you and thus predetermining your opponents possibilities of attack. This, combined with the tactile reflexes developed by CHI Sau is what gives the WC player a strategic edge.

Continued....................

[black and blue]

Interesting posts, guys.

As a side note, the Hsing-I I learn seems very much against front-facing.

When we engage, we attack the centre but the striking limb hits target and the other shoulder turns back - not so much that the shoulder is is direct line with the shoulder of the attacking limb, but nonetheless is turned.

As one goes forward, as it were, the other goes back... adding to further power. I guess it is a demonstration of how the whole body is more integrated than in my Wing Chun. Everything moves for the strike: both hands/arms/shoulders, the hips and waist, the knees/legs.

Until I could get this to work smoothly, Beng Chuan (my BC) had almost no power and seemed to just stretch my arm almost to the point of being uncomfortable. Now I'm slowly grasping the dynamics a little better, the power of these movements alone, and then combined with Hsing-I's very aggressive stepping, means the punch really, errr... packs a punch :)

I could hit fairly hard (if I say so myself ;) ) using Wing Chun punches (we trained them in the air, on padded opponents, against focus mitts, on heavier bags etc) but with the Hsing-I strikes (BC as the given example) I can generate far more power.

This, of course, is just looking at it from a somewhat external angle. I'm yet to learn the more internal approach which is the next step. My instructor has taught such methods to other, more advanced students, and combined with methods of exhaling leads to crazy-ar*ed power delivery.

Also, for Matt if he continues with the HS... although the two-person drills and playing with various random attacks are vital for training, I find that, having learnt four forms, practising these is the biggest tool for development as a beginner.

The more I do them, the more the Hsing-I flavour seems to seep into the two-person drills etc.

Duncan

Att: EvolutionFist. If you're reading this, I tried to reply to your PM but your inbox was full. I need to email you. PM me with your email address and I can write a longer reply regarding the stuff we were chatting about.

:)

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
This strikes me as a classic case of putting the cart before the horse! The salient point is this: You should train YGKYM so that it becomes your natural way of moving and fighting. My instructor has been in WC for close to 35 years and I see YGKYM in everything he does!!Yeah sure, I would hope that you can see elements of the Y in everything I do, even if it's only the position of the back thigh and the tuck of the perineum when I'm stepping in with a walking kick. But it's not a question of putting the cart before the horse: it's a question of how much you see a static position in what should be a dynamic situation.

I mean I know, I know all that stuff about only moving when you need to in wing chun... it's a great philosophy to keep in mind, but fights (and competitions and sparring and chi sao and whatever) are dynamic, and the Y is just NOT a way of moving, while there are elements of it I can use in moving.


To me, the situation you describe is a Bil Gee scenario. I.E. I've made a mistake; Im going to get hit/I am getting hit- what can I do to minimise my losses? I don't hold with BG being an emergency bag of tricks... there's no such thing as a BG situation: BG should be a part of your kung fu, not just 'Ah ****, I'm gonna get it, now where did I put my BG?!' :D... Doesn't sound much like a reflex action to me! :D

First you make the principles of SLT part of your reflex (and in it, with the opening, the start of chi gerk and the huen bo footwork of BG; with the double fuk/lan there's the lan from CK to the elbow from the start of BG, and the bounce punch from CK and the uppercut from BG... etc etc), then the CK principles, then the BG principles. There should be no 'That's a BG technique': it should all be part of the continuum.

To me BG is not a list of emergency techniques, it's a set of active principles to be drilled that give you back your freedom of expression to fight naturally with the principles from SLT and CK and whatever else you're learning. It's to let you out of the box that is the first to basic sets. It's only advanced in that it says, 'You have the basics, but with this short range power/short range body unity, it doesn't matter what you do!'
And yes there are situations where you might do this (what you suggest). However to me WC is like chess in that you have to think more than one move ahead. Yes by ducking you may avoid the first attack but what about the next? Conversley by being upright with your head up and your weight centrally distributed you are in a 'golden mean' or 'goldilocks' position i.e. you can move with equal ease in any direction.Yes there are situations like this... like how about every situation where you don't wanna get punched in the head...?! :D

I'm not just talking about ducking, though there is sometimes a need for that. I'm talking about tucking your chin in so you can still see your opponent, plus, in the game of chess, while I'm ducking or even keeping my head down, I'm still striking/lapping etc, I'm not using ducking as my only defence strategy.

I fail to see:

1) How NOT keeping your chin tucked and your head down is a good fight strategy;

2) How doing the above is going to break the magic of WC power generation... I can still adhere to the principle of CMA that says that you have the cord from heavens pulling your head up, it's just pulling it up from the back of your head and therefore straight from your spine which would seem to me to create opposing tensions in your neck that are going to strengthen it in the event of a rocking blow to the head;

3) How having your head up is gonna improve your speed or balance of movement 'with equal ease in any direction'. With my head tucked, I can move in any direction... I'm not talking about a Quasimodo stance!!!

4) How practising both ways is bad...! If my head gets grabbed in the tucked position, I'm not suddenly gonna be projected into the floor, or forced off balance... I can roll my head to one side ('sticky head' TM lol), and pop it back up on the other side of the attack (so duck out and pull back if necessary). If it's grabbed in the straight position I'm gonna have to do the same anyway.

As I see it the fundamental point about YGKYM is that it establishs a 'facing' position. And this is important because WC is about (in the main, although there are of course exceptions) fighting from this kind of position. This allows for the use of both hands equally- for simultaneous attack and defence- since both hands are an equal distance from the target. Moreover by occupying the centre and covering your gates you are 'mapping' the space in front of you and thus predetermining your opponents possibilities of attack. This, combined with the tactile reflexes developed by CHI Sau is what gives the WC player a strategic edge. Agree completely with the idea of squared-off strategy (though again in practice there are many reasons not to). But you're talking about using the Y as a fighting stance, which to me it just isn't.

I don't really want to turn this into another WC thread (it's the wrong forum!!! :D ) so I'll respect your right to practise WC very differently to me :) ... buuuut just a couple of questions:
1) Do you actually fight in the Y stance, with your feet parallel and inverted?
2) Do you never use in a back-weighted stance or a pin ma?
3) Do you not turn (use!) your hips at all?
... ContinuedI look forward to it... as I'm still injured so I had to miss my internals class today and prob my WC and shooto tomorrow... :(

[Mr Punch]

Cheers BnB, I'll get back to you.

[Miles Teg]

Hey Tokyo Matt
Its Nagoya Miles Teg here. I am finding this post very interesting. Got any updates?

Man, theres so much to do in Tokyo. I wish I could move uo there!

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Mat

I don't hold with BG being an emergency bag of tricks... there's no such thing as a BG situation: BG should be a part of your kung fu, not just 'Ah ****, I'm gonna get it, now where did I put my BG?!' :D... Doesn't sound much like a reflex action to me!

There is a non sequiter here- namely that because a technique is for an 'emergency' it therefore cant be instinctive- I see no reason why 'emergency techniques' cant be 'part' of your kung fu (whatever that phrase means exactly). Moreover I wouldnt say treating BG in this way involves any more or less of a reflex action then - 'I'm gonna get hit, better duck' does. In fact thats exactly how I would classify the latter response (as one to use in an emergency).

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Mat
First you make the principles of SLT part of your reflex (and in it, with the opening, the start of chi gerk....

I dont practice Chi Gerk. I dont really know what it is. If I can kick then (except in certain limited situations) my opponent can kick too- so my kick has to arrive first- that is all. Also, I dont kick from close range (unless I am behind my opponent) since being on one foot near an opponent stood on two doesnt strike me as an intelligent strategy. To use your phrase - If you think so I want to fight you.


Originally posted by Mat
The bounce punch from CK and the uppercut from BG


My CK has no uppercut and my BG has no hook. The way I do it these punches are just variations of the basic straight punch with the same fundamental biomechanics involved. They are simply about moving the arm/fist from one point to another in a straight line when it is already out without first retracting it-that is all. Which is not to say I would never use a hook/uppercut in a fight- only that this is not the thinking behind those sections of my forms.


Originally posted by Mat
There should be no 'That's a BG technique': it should all be part of the continuum.

I see what you're getting at here and I can agree with the broad tenor of it i.e. that each set builds on the last and introduces you to the next level of WCK development. Again though the continuum can be this- all things being equal this is how I will fight (Using SNT/CK/Dummy techniques/principles etc.) but if I am in trouble i.e.

- If i am pinned against the wall,
- if I have fallen over,
- if both my hands have been grabbed,
- if im fighting more than one person,
- if my kick has been blocked,
- If I need to retreat,
- If one of my hands is injured etc.

then I will use BG techniques (which if you like 'violate' normal WC principles (for example hitting underneath your extended arm when normally you would hit over it) but which the situation nevertheless dictates I use to escape/minimise my losses)


Originally posted by Mat
To me BG is not a list of emergency techniques, it's a set of active principles to be drilled that give you back your freedom of expression to fight naturally

Again, false dichotomy- the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Mat

1) Do you actually fight in the Y stance, with your feet parallel and inverted?

In my YGKYM SLT stance my feet aren't parrallel. In my 'fighting' stances my feet are parallel, that is they point in the same direction - at a 45 deg. angle- a la chum kiu juen ma (side neutral stance, forward advancing/retreating stance etc.).

However an important point: At times (such as when I enter an opponent/take up their position) my feet 'double track' i.e. they are on two seperate but parrallel lines- this is the footwork from the dummy

Here is an explanation from my sifu as to why:

'I was taught the half circle (and thus double track) for entry by Wong Shun Leung. If your foot enters up the centre of the enemy between their legs it gives you less stability. Also it will change your line of attack and not be able to control their leg. If you half-circle for exmple with the right leg, then your right leg will control their left and their weight is forced onto their other leg which will then stop that being used against you. If you enter for example with the right leg up the centre, you are also more open to having your leg swept as the enemy feels your centre of gravity shift towards one side. I have found myself, that if someone coming in with a bong sau for example and their leg comes up my centre, I can feel their centre of gravity change and it is easy to sweep them or divert their bong sau into a different direction. If their leg half-circles I can feel the force is more controlling on me.'


Originally posted by Mat

2) Do you never use in a back-weighted stance or a pin ma?

My COG is always centrally distributed- when I turn/step/whatever I dont shift it across/over the back leg- if you like I am always 50/50.


Originally posted by Mat

3) Do you not turn (use!) your hips at all?

I turn my stance as one integrated unit and sometimes I rotate my waist (without turning my stance). I dont turn my hips though-this 'collapses' the stance- My hips/pelvis are/is always pushed up and out- this maintains the structural integrity of my stance thus allowing me to channel incoming force into the ground as well as generate my own force via the reverse method.