Example of a comprehensive weight lifting program

[fa_jing]

http://groups.msn.com/irongarm/traininglogs.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=9502&ShowDelete=0&CDir=-2

[fa_jing]

This guy is 6' 2" and weighs under 200, I think

[Ford Prefect]

Not bad at all. Seems like a good blend of powerlifting work and kb's. I like how he blends low intensity stuff with high intensity and also seems to do some things to accomodate resistance. It seems to be Westside inspired, but I'd be a little leary of messing with the percentages used during speed days like he does. I never thought to use chains with pull-ups, but I'll definately give it a try. Something so simple. I can't believe that it completely escaped me.

He just a powerlifter or does he do endurance work too? I didn't see any form of cardio or bwe in there.

[fa_jing]

He just lifts AFAIK. I don't think he competes in powerlifting. You may note all the overhead work and the lack of squats.

[IronFist]

Nonsense. The only "comprehensive" weight lifting program you need is bench and curls. Everyone knows those are the only two muscles that matter. You know they're important because you see them when you look in the mirror.

And if you're not going to wear a shirt, you need to do lots and lots of ab exercises, too. You see them in the mirror, too.

To quote Strongbad, "You don't have abs on your back!"

[Ford Prefect]

I didn't see much overhead work. Nothing out of the ordinary for a guy training the powerlifts. It looks based around the dead and bench. Face pulls, band work, shoulder press etc are all common accessory exercises using a westside method of training.

[fa_jing]

oh, I've seen him post alot of workouts on Dragondoor based on long cycle clean and press with 2 70 pound KBs. 12 sets of 5, I believe.

http://forum.dragondoor.com/?searchUser=5030

Check out the posts that say "Kettlebell training" There are a lot of good ideas in there that a strong lifter can use.

[Ford Prefect]

Cool. Thanks. I have a question about c&J cycles in competition. I did a 10:00 clean and push press (purposefully wanted to hit the shoulders more) cycle this morning with 24kg bells. Are you allowed to rest at all during that 10:00 or do they have to be continous. I ripped off 31, but I'd take breaks holding the kb's in farmers walk position. I could have done more if I could have put them down. Once again, my grip was fried for pull-ups. I had a tough time doing 5 sets of 10.

[fa_jing]

Great work Ford!! I assume you mean Long-Cycle, 1 clean for each jerk - Yes, you can rest with the bells in the up or down position (farmer's hold), as long as you don't let them touch your thighs. At the highest level, people don't rest in the down position, they just rest in the rack because they have good rack rest and can go the 10:00 distance.

I'm not sure that 31 C + pushpress will work your shoulders more than 35 C + jerks that you might have gotten...

Even more importantly, is how you are catching the bells on your chest - the idea is to let them fall and not negative-press the bell. That will really eat into your reps. But you have to practice the catch. Experienced sport lifters go up on their calves to catch the bells as it reduces the distance the bells have to free-fall. But I have never had success with this. I just catch and didp. I do use my calves on the way up, though.

Another thing to know is that in the competition Long cycle C & J you have to pause in the rack before you do the jerk. You can't do the jerk using the same dip that you used to catch the clean. However, you do not have to pause on the way down.

The best anyone's done in the States so far with the 24's is two guys who have done 55 reps LC (Long -cycle) in 10:00 minutes. And they are both Heavyweights.

The best numbers put up so far for LC with the 32's is 17 reps by Bud Jeffries (he of the 1000lb squat). Somebody else has put up 16

The real competition, though, is in the traditional Short cycle and Snatch. The best kettlebell lifter in the US is Alex Makarov who has put up 61 jerks and 61 L/R snatch at 24kg and 26 jerks and 35 snatches with the 32kgs. He only weighs 181 or something. He used to be a Master of Sport in Oly lifting many years ago and C & J'd 180kgs in competition at 198lbs. BW. Obviously he was alot bigger back then.

A lifter from here put up 36/33 snatches in competition with the 32 KG, but did not compete in the jerk. Apparently he gets routines from Charles Staley.

[Ford Prefect]

Thanks for the info. I'm not really looking into comp or strict comp form since I'm working out to get tired and not to get reps. I just wanted something to gauge my progress against. BTW, when I was holding the bells in farmer's walk stance, they were definately touching my legs. My back was losing juice, so I couldn't hold them in the rack position and stay stable.

I can do 4 c&j's with the 72's, but only 3 snatches. I have more than enough strength to put it up, but I'm having problems controlling it on the way back down still. That freaking thing is heavy, and I get worn out by trying to control the decent so I don't break anything.

[fa_jing]

Ford - believe it or not, you just drop them on your chest as you pull your elbows in and rotate your arms to the neutral grip. The impact should be made by your upper arms against your chest. I like to keep my elbows close to each other in the rack. The impact is absorbed with a quick dip made once the bells touch down. You should feel this in the abs and use them to absorb the shock, too. Here's how: http://www.girevoysport.ru/jerk.gif
Study it. You won't see more perfect form. I can't do all the details of what this lifter is doing, but I have most of it, it works for me.

Holding the bells in the rack, should tire out your shoulder girdle before it tires out your back. You need to stretch the hip flexors forward to keep your hips under the weight.

Train the competition style. Believe me, there are things about it that you'll like. If your interested ask on www.kettlebellsport.com forum.

[fa_jing]

Ford - are you saying that you can do a double snatch with the 32kgs and just 3 one-armed snatches? Cause that doesn't equate. Look, you have a strong grip, we know that. I can only do about 12 BW pullups and that's fresh. You don't control the descent, you just pull up at the bottom so that it doesn't go through the floor as you swing it back through your legs. Just don't aggressively flip the KB back over your arm, let gravity do it. It doesn't matter if the downward trajectory is fairly straight close to your body or more like a half circle. That pull up from the bottom requires a strong grip and you tense your abs and push your legs against the floor at the bottom. Again, on the way up, you do the pull again. The pull for the way up is the same difficulty and intensity and the pull on the way down, that's just physics.
:)

[blooming lotus]

how many of folks here have read matt fureys "combat conditioning" book??

[Ford Prefect]

Thanks for th link. I never leaned back like that in rack position. Old BB habits die hard I guess because leaning back = injury there. Now bare with me about these snatches...

I can do a double snatch with 32kg, but it is mightily sloppy. So much so, that I'll only do them now and again as a test because I'm a firm believer in avoiding sloppy exercise to avoid injury.

For the 1-arm snatch, I can only do 3 straight if I'm doing it from the hang. If I put the bell down, stand up straight, and then start over, I can do around 5-7. Honestly I think the discrepency here is in lower back strength. All the lifting I had done before for my lower back like good mornings, hypers, deadlifts were grinding type lifts. I just don't think my back has gotten used to stopping a bell that heavy as it falls towards earth. After all energy = mass, so the faster it's moving the "heavier" it is.

I haven't really been playing much with 32kg bells the past couple weeks though. I've decided to build a solid foundation with the 24's first. I seem to be adjusting really quickly, so I figure in about a month, I'll start tackling the 32's. See if I can give some of those numbers a run. ;)

BL,

Yes, I and plenty other here have read Furey's book.

[fa_jing]

F - it is better to work with the 24's first, that's for sure. Once you have better technique (about 2 months) you'll have no problem transitioning to the 32s.

Are you doing snatches from hang? That's ok, but you should start first with swing-style snatches. Then you won't have to be pulling the bell to a dead stop. Don't assume that just because a hang snatch is more difficult, it is necessarily better. I do like dead snatches from the floor with the 32, but for singles only and in addition to more hi-rep swing-snatch work.

Swings will help you learn to use the lower back correctly, but I'll give you the key right now - tense your abs hard at the bottom of the swing.

BL - go away

[blooming lotus]

:rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

i've been considering your arguments, and even though you have all read the data on how other systems of strength and even size developement are more effective, especially in martial artistry, you continue to argue with me that your system is better.

Ford, so the mommy who has never trained in her life, yet lifts a car off her helpless child in a burst of volition got her stregth from where do you suppose??? This is the Qi- or nueral-muscular strength I'm saying is worth developing. We are talking methods for " kungfu training and health" right??

just checking it wasn't "bodybuilding for westerners"

cheers

oh and for anyone else who wants more please see the Hsing-yi concept of the six inner harmonies

these are
heart>mind
mind>qi
qi>strength

what do you suppose this devasting style refers to here???

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ford, so the mommy who has never trained in her life, yet lifts a car off her helpless child in a burst of volition got her stregth from where do you suppose???
This is primarily an adrenal response. They don't mention that the mommy also suffers extreme muscle, tendon and ligament damage and possibly even broken bones. Not something you can train.

[Vash]

My head hurts.

Ever' day, I'm tempted to put BL back on my ignore list . . . can't remember why I removed her from it in the first place.

BL, it's obvious you know FAR MORE than we mere mortals shall ever be able to even begin to maybe possibly kinda sorta understand, but please, PLEASE, try to stay OT.

Qi, however much you might believe in it, has no place in this discussion. Why? Well, the discussion revolves around western (ignorant sunsabiches) weight training, not eastern (enlightened sunsabiches) philosophy.

At this point, I am tempted to list the different methods of utilizing weight-training tools for growth of strength, muscular size, the whole schpiel, but I don't think I will. It seems that, if you know the differences in these, you would let it be known through the style of your arguments, but . . .

[Ford Prefect]

Ford, so the mommy who has never trained in her life, yet lifts a car off her helpless child in a burst of volition got her stregth from where do you suppose??? This is the Qi- or nueral-muscular strength I'm saying is worth developing. We are talking methods for " kungfu training and health" right??


lol! I'm happy it's a slow day at work today because I had time to read this gem. Keep 'em coming!

[Vash]

FP, are you too struck by the obscene brilliance which is blooming lotus?

[Ford Prefect]

Naw. I remember being young and foolish. I'm sure in 5 years or so, she'll look back and hope nobody finds these posts and connects them to her. I just can't help but laugh at the obvious lack of understanding and book knowledge when she tries to portray herself as some esteemed intellectual. No worries or hard feelings. I know where she's coming from.

[Vash]

Indeed. I once had an ego to cover. A year off from any type of physical activity broke me of that, though.

I've no real animosity towards her, it's just her posts are only entertaining for so long.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

Ford, so the mommy who has never trained in her life, yet lifts a car off her helpless child in a burst of volition got her stregth from where do you suppose??? This is the Qi- or nueral-muscular strength I'm saying is worth developing. We are talking methods for " kungfu training and health" right??

j

I'm reading this thread late, so I missed this when it was originally posted...

WTF??!?!

[blooming lotus]

whadda you mean wtf???

dont know qi??? well ok then

[Ford Prefect]

haha! I hear ya Sevenstar. I caught it late too.

[SevenStar]

please enlighten me. What is the correlation between qi and neuromuscular strength?

are you saying that I can't improve my neuromuscular strength through weight training?

When I lift weights, am I using my qi to lift them? How does the qi produce force?

[blooming lotus]

if you consider that qi is life force then yes....

no I'm not saying resistance training won't develope your muscular stregth because that would bew stoopid....qi is the unerlying force that gives "power" to your mind, body etc to carry it out.....love to explain more but I'm in the bosses office....

later

[SevenStar]

no I'm not saying resistance training won't develope your muscular stregth because that would bew stoopid....



Originally posted by SevenStar
What is the correlation between qi and neuromuscular strength?

How does the qi produce force?

[blooming lotus]

ok..pls understand....qi is the underlying force that delivers the power to your muscles .......

so you may have big muscles and low qi = not so9 much force...

but you may have smaller muscles but . high qi..so = great force

dong ma??

understand???

[SevenStar]

your power output is dependant on the force at which your muscles contract - the harder they contract, the higher the output. Strength training is training your neuromuscular system to produce harder contractions.

If the qi is the neuromuscular system, how is weight training helping it?

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
...qi is the unerlying force that gives "power" to your mind, body etc to carry it out...
I've always thought that was due to midichlorians.

BL, since this week your topic of expertise is "qi", does that make your previous arguments all worthless? I mean, why train for 2hrs on your Abdoer when you could be doing 2hrs of qigong to produce much more "strength"?

Give up 7*. All your base are belong to us.

[blooming lotus]

yes...2 hrs of hard qigong ( or old school martial artistry) would be much better :D

not only would you get into some better health producing higher strength but it would improve your overall performance....

see...ma is a total system of combined bodily and spiritual function and volition....

7*...no your power output is totally dependant onthe volition with which those big ol muscles (:rolleyes:) are contracted...you gotta agree with that...... sure muscles contract to produce the movement or whatever...but qi feeds the volition with which it contracts therefore your qi will dictate your strength.........


it's like a pacificts no-limit psyhco strength zone?????

ultimate focus and control.......



Toby...Pleaase stop telling everyone I'm this or that great or expert because the only thing I claim is to be able to stay alive using my art ( ....mmmm...to date anyway ;))....


oh and that IQ thing

:rolleyes: ;) :D

[SevenStar]

So, theoretically, if your chi is stronger than mine, your muscles can produce a stronger contraction mine, giving your strike more power than mine?

[IronFist]

So how come world class powerlifters don't do qigong, and people who do only qigong can't lift much weight?

[blooming lotus]

7*..........exactly

Iron...how do you know they're not qigong practitionersand who says qigiong masters can't lift much weight..????

I think it's more about the volocity > force more than it is about the flesh movement

badly worded right??? sorry

[fa_jing]

I think visualization techniques and CNS -focused protocols are the equivalent of QiGong in competitive weight lifting.

[blooming lotus]

exactly...clear your mind...concentrate real hard...reach your "limit" , clear it again and conentrate some more andso on andso on......now your doing hard qigong

[IronFist]

1. I know they don't do qigong because they don't. Besides, they use too many steroids and you said that would be counterproductive with qigong.

2. If they did do qigong, we'd have heard about it by now.

3. I didn't say qigong masters can't lift much weight. I said someone who does ONLY qigong won't be able to lift a lot of weight. They'll probably be really healthy and energetic, but I doubt they'd be able to do a double bodyweight barbell squat all the way down.

[blooming lotus]

you're saying they all do steroids?

beg to differ that qigong only practitioners can't lift much....they'd big on stance work, so strong in the legs and I'm pretty sure they'd be big quan (fist) aspect so their arms wouldn't exactly be soft either, add qi...and I think they'd be up to it...I'll ask the nxt one see and let you know ;)

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you're saying they all do steroids?
Pretty much, yes. Unless they participate in organisations that test. If there is no testing, a non-user won't be able to compete against a user.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
beg to differ that qigong only practitioners can't lift much....they'd big on stance work, so strong in the legs and I'm pretty sure they'd be big quan (fist) aspect so their arms wouldn't exactly be soft either, add qi...and I think they'd be up to it...I'll ask the nxt one see and let you know ;)
So they do stance work, i.e. they can support their own bodyweight? Wow! Maybe I underestimated qigong's strength benefits.

[blooming lotus]

again...you'restillon ignore so I didn't catch the whole post...but to say that there is no natural athlete in weightlifting and body building is naeve and judgemental...for the fact the you seem to think everyone willcomprise theier integrity when opportunity presents

you wonderwhy you're on ignore

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
again...you'restillon ignore so I didn't catch the whole post...but to say that there is no natural athlete in weightlifting and body building is naeve and judgemental...for the fact the you seem to think everyone willcomprise theier integrity when opportunity presents

you wonderwhy you're on ignore
You're really starting to embarrass yourself now, bl.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you're saying they all do steroids?

beg to differ that qigong only practitioners can't lift much....they'd big on stance work, so strong in the legs and I'm pretty sure they'd be big quan (fist) aspect so their arms wouldn't exactly be soft either, add qi...and I think they'd be up to it...I'll ask the nxt one see and let you know ;)

That's not true at all. I squat over 400lbs... show me someone who ONLY goes qg that can do that, and I've got a nice, shiny 20 dollar bill with your name on it...

stancework is endurance training, not much of a strength builder.

[IronFist]

Holy **** SevenStar, that's a big squat! :eek: How much do you weigh?

I assume you go all the way down.

Even so, that's a lot. I've never even unracked 400 before. I unracked 315 once, just for fun tho.

BL, low stances, or any kind of stance training for that matter, doesn't really help raw strength much. Holding low stances builds the endurance required to hold stances, but it doesn't really do anything to help how much weight you can lift.

People who can squat 500lbs probably can't hold a horse stance for 2 minutes, and people who can hold horse stances for 10 minutes probably can't squat 2x body weight.

And if you do ask those qigong guys, make sure you SEE them do it. Anyone can say anything. And it has to be a squat. Leg press is nothing like squat. Some people think if they can leg press 400lbs then they can squat 400lbs. Hah, a 400lb leg press is like squatting 135lbs.

And make sure it's a real squat. No 1/4 squat bull****, please :)

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
again...you'restillon ignore so I didn't catch the whole post...but to say that there is no natural athlete in weightlifting and body building is naeve and judgemental...for the fact the you seem to think everyone willcomprise theier integrity when opportunity presents

you wonderwhy you're on ignore I'm sure there are lifters who don't take steroids. But Iron mentioned:

Originally posted by IronFist
... world class powerlifters ...
Non-users won't be world class. As I said, they can compete, but they won't get anywhere. Applies to bodybuilding too AFAIK. Sad but true.

[IronFist]

And before anyone says "but they pass drug tests!" know that elite level athletes (note I didn't say specifically "weightlifters" or "bodybuilders") have access to the best chemists, who have access to the best masking agents.

[SevenStar]

IF has taken the correct, loaded it with twice his bodyweight and squatted it with ease.

[SevenStar]

It's not that big of a squat to me... I was doing 405 in high school, then lost access to a squat rack after I graduated. I wasn't a fan of the uni gym, so I never used it - I had a huge weight set at my house, but no squat rack...Now that I've got access to one, I can try to up my squat again. I'm shooting for 500 by the end of the year.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SevenStar
It's not that big of a squat to me... I was doing 405 in high school, then lost access to a squat rack after I graduated. I wasn't a fan of the uni gym, so I never used it - I had a huge weight set at my house, but no squat rack...Now that I've got access to one, I can try to up my squat again. I'm shooting for 500 by the end of the year.
Dayum!

:eek:

[IronFist]

SevenStar, how much do you weigh?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by SevenStar
IF has taken the correct, loaded it with twice his bodyweight and squatted it with ease.

:D

[SevenStar]

I fluctuate. right now, I'm 228.

[IronFist]

So that's like 1.75 x bw. That's higher than I'm at right now. Good job.