Long Fist?

[Starchaser107]

This might seem like a stupid question,
but are nothern shaolin sets such as "red fist" for arguements sake considered under the category "long fist"?
thanks in advance.

[bodhitree]

from what I know yes, but I am no expert.

[adelbrecht10]

This might be a stupid question too, but how would a long fist exponent handle close range fighting? Would he or she just avoid close range encounters?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by adelbrecht10
This might be a stupid question too, but how would a long fist exponent handle close range fighting? Would he or she just avoid close range encounters? Ideally, you set up for a throw or lock.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Ideally, you set up for a throw or lock.

like in northern eagel claw? :D

[norther practitioner]

Actually, most northern stuff I've seen has a lot of it.

[stimulant]

the term longfist can be misleading.

Many longfist styles train very hard on the kicks...but the forms and applications are maybe 90% hands with a huge chunk of that being close range to.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by stimulant
the term longfist can be misleading.

Many longfist styles train very hard on the kicks...but the forms and applications are maybe 90% hands with a huge chunk of that being close range to. Longfist just means you prefer to fight to the length of your extremities (legs and arms), not that you prefer punching over kicking; Chang Chuan being no different than Mizong Chuan, Shaolin Chuan, Lohan Chuan, etc..... fist methods.

[stimulant]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Longfist just means you prefer to fight to the length of your extremities (legs and arms), not that you prefer punching over kicking; Chang Chuan being no different than Mizong Chuan, Shaolin Chuan, Lohan Chuan, etc..... fist methods.

not true of all longfist styles, but as a generalisation, yes

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by stimulant


not true of all longfist styles, but as a generalisation, yes What long-fist styles primarily use short-striking? :confused:

[mickey]

Greetings,

It is all there in the Longfist styles: punching, kicking, grappling, throwing, and finishing. You have to be dilligent in your approaches toward pulling out the knowledge.

For example: the Block Strike sequence in Tan tui (#5).

One can use that move as a simultaneous block an strike or as an upward deflecting move to a front kick that will send your opponent flying. One can also use the downward move before the strike to lock your opponents arm.


The Longfist styles can be as far or as close as you want.


mickey

[mickey]

MasterKiller,

I have never heard of a Longfist style that couldn't handle it up close. The segmentation of the striking and grappling arts are fairly recent in Chinese martial arts.

A strong short strike comes from bag work and the development of fa jing. Just find a bag and work it, baby! Until it can't take it any more.

mickey

[mickey]

Or, an even better approach to the bag,

Punch the bag until it shakes. Until it shakes like a........ Polaroid Picture. :)

mickey

[MasterKiller]

Sure, it's in there. I'm well aware of that.

But the reason it's called Long-Fist is because of the preference for long-striking.

[mickey]

Hi MasterKiller,

There are a few interpretations of the term. Some also say its because of the extended postures; others because of the length of the form, etc.

Even with Longfist. To do damage, you have to get closer. The Longfist practitioner tends to punch and kick through his opponent. The fa jing component facilitates the damage.

mickey

[Robert Young]

Hi Mickey,


> Even with Longfist. To do damage, you have to get closer.
Very well said. I'm Long Fist guy, that is exactly how it supposed to be done.


Hi MasterKiller,

> But the reason it's called Long-Fist is because of the preference > for long-striking.
No quite right. The reason we call Long Fist is because of the way we practice. The moves we do are BIG and LONG. We use extended postures as Mickey said. That is the way we practice, but not how we use in fighting.

The way we fight is actually to be as close to opponent as possible. In our lineage, we do LOTS of punching with throwing, if we don't fight close, it is impossible to carry out the applications. The other things we do practice is to learn how to attack from the distance. You can call that long-striking if you like.

Cheer,

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Robert Young
No quite right. The reason we call Long Fist is because of the way we practice. The moves we do are BIG and LONG. We use extended postures as Mickey said. That is the way we practice, but not how we use in fighting. Are you suggesting fighting postures are not simialr to your forms work? If not, why practice forms at all?


The way we fight is actually to be as close to opponent as possible. In our lineage, we do LOTS of punching with throwing, if we don't fight close, it is impossible to carry out the applications. Yes, but the punching is different than say, Hung Gar or Choy Lay Fut. There is a difference between long-strike power generation and short-strike power generation. The mechanics aren't the same.


The other things we do practice is to learn how to attack from the distance. You can call that long-striking if you like. Yeah, that's my point.

[Robert Young]

Hi masterkiller,

> Are you suggesting fighting postures are not simialr to your
> forms work? If not, why practice forms at all?
Practice forms has many purpose; Some for strength, some for speed, some for stability, some for balance, some for endurance. In the forms, there are applications. To apply those applications, you need to break the forms apart and practice those individually. Forms in CMA are like songs in music. To play a song well, you need to master the techniques in the song. You practice applications in the forms just like the techniques embedded in the songs. You don't need to learn forms to fight actually, just like you can learn some techniques for music instruments without playing a whole song. But, you don't get the beauty of the whole songs.


> Yes, but the punching is different than say, Hung Gar or Choy
> Lay Fut. There is a difference between long-strike power
> generation and short-strike power generation. The mechanics
> aren't the same.
I don't know how other people practice our Long Fist. But, it is the same for me either it is long strike or short strike. The power generation of our short and long strikes is the same. We practice long strike for balance, strength, and speed. We use short strike in real application. That is the major difference.

I'm not sure if I can explain clearly in this one, but I'll try my best.
There are some difference in the look of the punches between northern and southern styles. The reason they don't look the same is the way they finish. When we punch in Long Fist forms, we extended our shoulder out without pulling it back. On ther other hand, we also practice some southern forms too. The way we punch in our southern style forms, we pull our shoulder back after the fist is out. Even with the difference, we punch with the same power generation. From another perspective, a punch is a punch, there is really no difference when you really do it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't work, it doesn't. There shouldn't be so much difference in a simple thing such as a punch.

Cheer,

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Robert Young
You practice applications in the forms just like the techniques embedded in the songs. You don't need to learn forms to fight actually, just like you can learn some techniques for music instruments without playing a whole song. But, you don't get the beauty of the whole songs.At the same time, you don't practice playing a B note if you really want a B flat. Your practice reflects your performance, so the way you practice a technique should be identical to how you think you will perform it.

The emphasis is on long-range fighting in Chang Chuan. That does not exclude short striking or throwing.


There shouldn't be so much difference in a simple thing such as a punch. But generating power is different than just punching. In long-fist, you push off your back foot and generate power from the foot --> ankle --> leg --> waist --> shoulder --> hand. In short-striking, power comes from waist --> shoulder --> hand.

[Robert Young]

> Your practice reflects your performance, so the way you
> practice a technique should be identical to how you think you
> will perform it.
I can not speak for other styles. But that is not exactly in our case. We practice forms with big and long moves. We apply the techniques with short and small moves.
But, when we perform a form, we THINK how we are going to use the techniques and doing Long and Big moves at the same time.
When we practice the applications with partners, all the punches and kicks are short.
This is the most common problem I have seen when people practice our Long Fist. Most people have hard time to distinguish the exercise and application. We practice Big moves to gain our strength and short moves for the usage.


> The emphasis is on long-range fighting in Chang Chuan.
If you are talking about attack from distance, yes. But, when we are in the position ready to kick or punch, they are all short strikes when we use them. Again, practice form is one thing, usage is another.

> That does not exclude short striking or throwing.
Exactly.

> But generating power is different than just punching. In long-
> fist, you push off your back foot and generate power from the
> foot --> ankle --> leg --> waist --> shoulder --> hand. In short-
> striking, power comes from waist --> shoulder --> hand.
Not really. Even in short-striking, the power is the same as long-strike, all the way from foot to hand. Without foot as root to back you up, your punch will not get maximum power no matter it is short or long strike. It is simply physics.

Cheers,

[mickey]

MasterKiller,

Robert Young's statement on thinking about the use of a technique while going big and long is a KEY piece of information that is not often shared. Most practitioners would have to find that on their own. If you incorporate this in your practice you will be really accelerating your growth and development in the Longfist style that you practice.

mickey

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by mickey
MasterKiller,

Robert Young's statement on thinking about the use of a technique while going big and long is a KEY piece of information that is not often shared. Most practitioners would have to find that on their own. If you incorporate this in your practice you will be really accelerating your growth and development in the Longfist style that you practice.

mickey My long fist is not practiced big and flashy, so I don't have to pare it down to use it. Thanks anyway.

[shannon Ferrell]

All stances are used as a foundation. Take for example, I would never actully use (Tiger guards the house stance) when fighting someone, but when I practice my tiger/crane I hold the stance for about 1 minute. A stance in a form is to build a good foundation, because without the a foundation the house will fall down.

[stimulant]

I'm back....

I do original style Mizong Quan........

and Lu Shifu says that about 50% of techniques from forms can be taken out directly to be used in combat, where as the other 50% need to be modified slightly as (Robert Young said) they are overly, long / low stances, have some overly movements, some overly little movements etc etc etc etc to train for balance, power, speed, to make sure you actually get the mechanics of technique right (for example its much easier to make a big circular movement than a small one).

Our forms have both long and short techniques, but far more hands (maybe 85% hands) than feet despite being a northern long fist style.

Rather than do lots of exercises to build things like balance and strength and speed using exercises you woudl not use ina fight, surely it is better to slightly modify techniques that you would sue in a fight to train these things as it is relative to what you are doing!

:)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by stimulant
Our forms have both long and short techniques, but far more hands (maybe 85% hands) than feet despite being a northern long fist style. Northern feet means footwork, not necessarily kicks.


train these things as it is relative to what you are doing! Word.