New students in trouble?

[greedy]

I have noticed over the past few months some interesting things in my kwoon. i have developed a bit of a theory about beginning students, and wanted to run it past you guys and see what you think.

I believe that for the first 2 - 3 months of wing chun training, a beginning student will be less able to defend himself than before he started training, and he will be more likely to find himself in confrontational situations. (man that's a long senetence!!)

My argument goes as follows:

1) A new student is having his natural fighting instincts overwritten, and frequently 'freezes' during training as he tries to figure out what to do next. The same thing occurs when he is under the pump, and so takes less effective action than usual.

2)despite telling them a thousand timees that it takes time to make wing chun street effective, students who are just starting gain a misplaced confidence in his own ability, and can cause aggressive responses to situations that do not warrant such action. I have bailed out more than one sidi who bit off more than he could chew bacause of misplaced confidence in his fighting skills.

Do other people find this to be a fair comment? Comment either of your own experience as a learner, or as a teacher.

cheer

[Wei Sui]

I would have to say to theory #:

1. Yes, your statement about the beginner student having to think/overide ones regular reaction may infact hinder them. During a confrontation, time may be spent trying think of which SLT tactic to use (thus taking time)...in a real fight you don't have time to be thinking about what to do. Beginners will most likely not have the "muscle memory" to react with the most efficient move and have timing. It's all about repetition, MUSCLE MEMORY, reaction, timing.

2. Warn them once, warn them again about this misplaced confidence. You can't control their actions but you can educate them...let them know as they progress in the art they will start thinking the opposite; they will want to avoid confrontation with others as insight is gained about how badly/easily we can hurt or get hurt. If they want to test their skills do it with full contact sparring with gear....

I am not a SiFu or even close to being one...what what said was IMHO. Learning this on their own may be part of the equation that moves them from ignorance to understanding...

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[Anarcho]

As a beginner myself, I can honestly say I don't have a problem with over confidence. Having seen the more senior students at the kwoon, and realising that there are quite a few people out there who have a lot more experience than me, I think it's almost decreased my confidence, since now I'm aware of what an experienced martial artist can do. Before I started training, the world of MA was outside my experience and I didn't really think about it.

Soup is good food.

[OdderMensch]

i realized during my first 6 months "**** there are some nasty things that can happen if you go pokin' your limbs out at people."

heh after a visit from Sifu Alan Lamb, i never threw "the finger" again. Well maybe at friends :)

Most of my personal delusions of invicibilty went away rather quickly. But i can very safely and with the upmost confidence say that after 2 months of Kung Fu I was far better able to defend myself had the need arisen.

[Spark]

Where are you from in Canada?

[Dragonhand]

Stop spending your time with chi sao and learn Wing Chun as the fighting art it is ment to be.Wing Chun Tought correctly will inhance your natural abilities from the start.IMHO.

[Sharky]

i agree with this 100%

what the hell are you on about - no one learns chi sau in the first 2-3months - i know that a few schools might teach it from the of but not many.

since i started to do wing chun, it has totally ruined my ability to strike in anyway but a straight punch. i can't hook for toffee.

it is true what greedy said, until you learn to fight properly with wing chun, you are what i believe a very dangerous "zone". This is especially bad when you goto a school and there is no sparring. So they have no experience AT ALL. This is why i left my last wing chun school - i doubt i'm gonna be returning to wing chun - it's my `favourite` style, i love it, it's VERY effective, but finding a good teacher is something i've not been able to do.

I'm sick of this "we don't spar it's too dangerous" or any other crap. So it's time for me to swap styles, unless i find a good wc school near by :(

Edd

My anus is superior™

[Gandolf269]

I can honestly say (being a beginner myself) that I would not want to get into an altercation at this stage of my training, for fear of hesitating. My Wing Tsun sihing's have shown me not to under-estimate someones abilities. People who train in martial arts have always been guilty of over-estimating their abilities. When I was young and causing trouble, I loved to run into "Karate guys" who thought they new what they were doing. They couldn't handle being taken down to ground. I am just glad that, when I am better at Wing Tsun, I will have an effective repertoire to draw from.

'...and China is still serving rice in Tibet!'

[Starbuck]

Bruce Lee described the three stages of training that a person goes through as he learns a martial art.

Stage 1: Prior to learning anything. He has no technique in a fight, but _fluid_ because all his motions are natural.

Stage 2: Beginning training. He has learned the correct techniques to use in a fight but now his movements are no longer fluid. He frequently freezes up in "WhaddaIdonow?!" moments.

Stage 3: Becoming proficient. The techniques he has learned have become part of his natural state. Therefore, he no longer needs to use his conscious mind to determine what to do in a fight. His movements are now fluid AND technical.

<HR>"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform." - Mark Twain

[[Censored]]

My teacher gives new students a short, personal demonstration on what it feels like to receive Wing Chun. This seems to resolve overconfidence problems. :)

[Wei Sui]

I am from Calgary, AB. Where U from in Canada? Good to see WC strong in Can...

*************************
Dai yut tow dai :)

[harry_the_monk]

Hi, I'm a beginner in my first month at learning WC. I have wanted to learn the art for about 8 years, but only just been able to(maybe I'll go into it in another thread).
I had actually, and still am looking at buddhism as a viable way of life, and was hoping WC would help me in some way, so looking for fights or overstepping my ego isn't a problem.
I always thought I was more than capable of handling fights when they arose in the past(maybe I was just lucky :D .)Since learning some, what I can only describe as un-natural moves(although I realise they are actually more natural.), I do find myself freezing. Also, I have to seriously concentrate on what I'm doing. I notice some of the other guys in the class doing stuff which also doesn't seem very WC to me during sparring.(Elaborate roundhouse kicks, spinning back kicks, jumping head kicks, boxing(western punching), some Chin-Na/Judo moves among other things.)
I must add that this isn't everyone in the class, it also only happens after we have been sparring for a while, but I reckon that as I have gone to the lessons to learn WC, I should be doing WC moves, otherwise I may as well just go to any Street Defence class.(am I wrong?)
I may be sounding arrogant, but this is my opinion, wrong as it may be, but it doesn't really help me to flow fluidly when I have stuff like that on my mind...as well as trying to remember stuff about my centre-line, keeping my back straight, shoulders straight, low stance, etc.,.....oh yeah, and to try to work out if the guy who's been doing it for a couple of weeks longer than me has actually grasped the right idea also...

Not meant to be in the slightest way negative, but you did ask how the new studants feel... :) :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[Spark]

I'm from the T-DOT! BAM! :D

[benny]

i agree with the learning to rewrite your natural ability. but i think that when you go to class and look at all the people that i would usually laugh at. but most of them are senior to me. some seem nurdy but they could kick my butt.
so i look at everyone now in a different light.but six months is a long time i had a few fights by then and except for the multibles i won them.but i was training everyday.
wong shun leung by six month was going to schools and challenaging the teachers. so did barry lee. but both trained 16 hours a day.
what i am saying the you are in trouble til you start to retain your reactions but given enough training it can happen alot quicker. the more you put in the more you get out quicker.

[Miles Teg]

I did karate for 10 years and we always sparred. I dont think sparring was that beneficial. We may not be talking about the same type of sparring. e.g. Foot pads, gloves, no punching to the head only kicking.
After coming home from this sort of sparring I always had alot of bruises on my arms and legs. When your sparring with some one much better than you, I found I actually became scared of trying moves or even move in for the fear of getting hit hard. If the sparring you guys are talking about uses punches to the head, then thats even worse. If you dont then its unrealistic. its hard to relax when some one is coming in fast at you, and relaxation is important. Thats why I think Chi Sao is so awesome. Even if you do it with a senior, they arent going to harm you. You can RELAX. I think Chi Sao is enough.
By the way, I thought Wong Shun Leung started W.C when he was still a boy(Im not completely sure). If so then it would be unlikely he was challenging different masters at such a young age. I know when he first started he challenged W.C guys though. Im probably wrong.

[MikeDensity]

This topic reminds me of something my sifu said to me. After several weeks of training, my sifu talked to me after class and told me that my Wing Chun was very dangerous at this phase. At first I thought that was a good thing (dangerous to other people), but in fact he was warning me about this 'beginners' phenomenon. Furthermore, he told me that if by some chance I should get into a fight that I should forget what I know and just fight. If you're practicing Wing Chun right and with dedication, then it will just come out naturally, he said. But do you guys think it's possible to 'forget' Wing Chun at this phase? I don't know... :confused:

[benny]

wong shun leung wasnt that young when he started and he was going to schools and chellanging in the street before he started useing boxing as he thought knug fu was crap.

[Miles Teg]

I stand corrected

[Sharky]

MikeDensity, your teacher is a good teacher if he told you that about forgetting wc for now etc, he has his head screwed on...

Well done..

Edd

My anus is superior™