Dissolving Process

[Doug]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone would be interested in sharing his or her experiences with what Mr. Bruce Kumar Frantzis call the dissolving process. I will submit my own experiences (when I get back), but I would find it helpful to hear about what others think about it.

What advice would you give that may not be explicitly stated in his books? (He is pretty detailed, but can a book get everything?)

How do you go about "processing" it?

Are there any memorable experiences you have while doing it (your first sensation, the first time an area was dissolved, the most difficult part for you, etc.)?

Thanks in advance,

Doug M

[gazza99]

Perhaps since many of us may not have Kumars book, you should outline what this process is exactly? Perhaps others have the same training, under a different term, or different training under the same term...it may help to clarify the discussion...

Thanks!

Gary

[Doug]

gazza99,

Right you are. I made the bad assumption that everyone knew what I was talking about.

As I understand it, dissolving is the beginning process to Taoist meditation. To put it in the simplest (and, unfortunately for now, quickest) terms, you "scan" your body for anything that hurts, feels awkward, or "just does not seem right" and use your mind to release or dissolve it. (I will quote the text when I am near it, so this explanation is just a dose of simplification.) This can be done standing, sitting, lying down, moving, or during sex. Dissolving is also known as standing meditation.

Sorry, but that is the best I can do within a few minutes! Quotes will follow later.

Doug M

[backbreaker]

Intereting. I hope someone does know about this and explains in more detail. I have laerned methods where you relax everything from hair to internal organs and spine, I don't know if it's the same. There is a different methon done at the beginning of some qigong called song/jing, you breath in say song( silently if you want) and relax upper body, then breathe out and say jing relaxing lower body, but I don't exactly know a dissolving method. Sometimes you shake the tension out of your body. Should be interesting this thread, if someone has experience in this

[Doug]

I have a little time, so he goes...

Mr. Frantzis follows teh water tradition of Taoism, so the dissolving method he employs is supposed to be gentle and natural (for example, dissolving downward when beginning to practice this method). Actually, gentle may not be really correct because, sometimes, releasing an energy blockage may seem very difficult. In any case, Frantzis' book states something close to doing only what is natural, not forcing anything.

Instead of trying to visualize the pain right between your eyes, for instance, he suggests "finding" the pain and attempting to dissolve or let go of it. The imagery he uses is of ice melting to water, water turning into vapor, and vapor disappearing (into the earth or cosmos--once again, I am without the text but should know it without fail by now). The first text he talks about this in is here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556431643/qid=1080934783/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4459109-7427241?v=glance&s=books

Anyway, I usually do this at night because I have not scheduled time during the morning or day to try it yet. I also do this lying down, which I am sure violates some principles of body alignment. Regardless of my misrepresentations (if I am misrepresenting it, I apologize), it really works for me. I go through my whole body and dissolve as much as I can. It just feels like the weight of all my pain, worry and anxiety of the day, and apprehension for the next day is "let go."

For instance, if I try to "clear" my nasal cavity (dissolve any kind of pain or discomfort there), I find that the air holes clear up; the same happens with my throat all the way to my organs. I know it sounds weird, but if you have seen The Simpsons episode where Homer's mom returns, telling her story about her part in destroying Mr. Burns' chemical and biological agents, you see a young Chief Wiggum running from the toxins and eventually caught up in them. He says that the chemicals clear up his sinuses and breathes deeply (with a sound of a deep, clear, clean windpipe). As odd as it sounds, that is what it feels like.

Anyway, I thought I would share this. Maybe I am doing something completely different, confusing myself in the process. But it really helps me. Oh, I am not trying to endorse this by telling others to do it; I just wanted to find out if anyone else wanted to share their experiences with Frantzis' methodology (which comes from someone else and so on).

Breathing deeply today,

Doug M

[backbreaker]

Interesting. Clearing up clogged nostrils by thinking of them relaxing, first thing in the morning is one of the first benefits I got from Taiji and qigong practice, and made me want continue doing them. Letting go is one of the most important things

[Repulsive Monkey]

This is a bit woeful in that "Dissolving" isn't a big secret and it certainly isn't exclusive to Taoist meditation. It's simply putting your attention to problem areas in the body and mentally trying to release qi stagnation.
Its as simple as that to be honest.
I'm not having a go at you Doug, its just I find Kumar to be irksome. There is no need for him to try and garner some exclusivity with is method as it isn't even exclusive to Taoism. This technique can be found within Western Occult traditions too.
"Energy follows thought" is the old occult law which means that whwerever the attention goes one can direct energy there too. So to relieve the body of problems especially stagnation of qi, one can gently without force attach one's attention there to stimulate movement of qi to try and get things moving and healing. This in principle is what this "Dissolving" method is teaching.

Apologies for the peevishness of this post, it's not you its Kumar that irritates me.

[Doug]

Thanks, Repulsive Monkey (I feel uneasy with your title in this statement, but hey...). I would not know that perspective had you not brought it up. Thanks.

Are there any sources you can point me towards in terms of a Western tradition? I have In teh Dark Places of Wisdom by and Ancient Philosophy, Mystery, and Magic: Empedocles and Pythagorean Tradition by Peter Kingsley. Are there other texts you could post here?

Does Mr. Frantzis purposely claim that this is unique to his tradition? I do not recall that, but I have not read his books in a while.

And thank you for phrasing it better than I initially did. When I do this, I do have a stronger sense of "movement" within my body, everything gets hot, my hands and feet tingle, and I am pretty much wide awake afterward.

Good day,

Doug M

[backbreaker]

So, no one here has learned the methods from Frantzis?

[Walter Joyce]

I have studied both internal (seated) and external (standing) dissolving with Kumar and one of his students.


I just don't feel like posting anything about it.

[Doug]

....BOOM! Thread dead.

It was good while it lasted.

Doug M

[Repulsive Monkey]

I've learnt from one of his senior students too, and my experience was a good one in that it made me realise that I did not want to follow that method.

[Doug]

Well, this seems to be the start of some anti-Frantzis stuff again. Hey, I do not mind that. I would still like to know what irks some people here about him. But to avoid that mess, could you guys explain why you do not want to talk about it? Your information could be helpful.

Thanks,

Doug M

[Repulsive Monkey]

His senior student had complete disregard for my formative training (i.e. 10 years Yang style Taiji) and was totally arrogant and dismissive also in naming other masters in the process.
When he spoke of them it was obvious that he knew precious little about him the master in question and probably had only heard some rumours at most and made up his mind about him.

He basically praised no one else apart from Bruce Frantzis, and always referred to his practices as being true practices.
He did relent at one point and say that there are other well cultivated masters around, but he preferred to stay praising BK.

If by a students capabilities you can get an idea of their master then all I can say is that BK is not that great. I would like to think that he is very different, but I hear too much bad press about him from good reliable sources.
All I know is that Kumar's strong point is his Bagua more than anything else. He has always been known for his disrespectful attitude towards people and famously covers up some of his worse faux pars too in his own literature. In his secrets of the internal arts he never ever mentions the real reason why he stopped being taught by Wang Shu-jin because he's probably still embarassed about it today.

I suspect he has skill but his arrogance is well known. It's a shame that one of his top senior students in the UK (because I'm sure not all who learn under him inherit his bad attitude) has been molded in the same cast as Kumar. Im sure Kumar has things to teach but I'd just prefer to get it from a better lineage thats all.

Rant over, forever hopefull!

[Doug]

Repulsive (if you don't mind that :)),

Thank you for taking a chance and explaining your point of view on an open forum. I am glad you did because there is potential for backlash that can turn into "fighting words" within the span of a single post. I appreciate your perspective because, if it is true (I cannot be absolutely certain without being you), I can understand a little more about the general, unspoken context of this ever-changing situation.

Thanks again,

Doug M

P.S.

By the way, is there a way that I can contact you outside of this forum?

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,
I'm not incredibly experienced with meditation in general, so I've little to compare Frantzis' methods with. I do have some experience with the water method as taught by Frank Allen (one of Mr. Frantzis' students).

As taught by Frank, you start with standing. The ice to water to gas analogy is emphasised as they are stages in what you are doing rather than just relaxing though relaxing seems to be a big part but not the whole of it. Using patterns, you go basically from top to bottom, dissolving everything that you can feel (which is trained in a prerequisite "what's alive what's dead"excersize which is just seeing what you can feel in your body from top to bottom without visualizing). Once you get the feeling of figuring out what exactly is tension and what is not, then you dissolve. It's like letting go of stuff but in stages (ice to water to gas and out).

The "inner" dissolving is a similar process but with a slightly different emphasis. This deals with organs and emotions and stuff like that. This is Ice to water to "inner space" , the theory being that you have as much inner space as there is outer. This is not an area that I am particularly good at or have worked that hard at, so I'll leave it at that. For me, I'm not intensely interested in deep meditation , but with what I've done of any dissolving stuff, it tends to be pretty complex dealing with ones weird ****.

That being said, I've found that just working something really simple like following the breath from the nose to the lower abdomen and back out for long periods of time is best for me. The dissolving stuff is alot and if you are really hardcore about meditation, then it seems like a good method to explore. If you do, find a good teacher who is not secretive and available and able to answer your questions. Lots of confusing things come up when you go really into that stuff, so it helps to have someone to talk to and get advice from. Thanks,
josh

[Buddy]

RM,
His senior student? Frank was one of the first so if it's not him... I am a former 'senior student' of Bruce and I found his stuff to quite profound even if I didn't find the same of him. I agree the whole TWT thing is quite debatable and Kumar is certainly a...colorful guy. But the material, if you learn it from someone qualified to teach it is top shelf. But I've only done it for about 15 years. It's funny in retrospect that backbreaker expressed an interest in something that if he knew I taught it, would recoil.
Buddy

[Doug]

No, no, no...thank you, Josh.

[yangchengfu04]

RM, Why did he stop training with Wang Shu-jin????

[Repulsive Monkey]

Whilst Wang was teaching a class, Bruce decided to try out the infamous groin kick which Wang was famous for withstanding. As he did immediately Wang gave Bruce a Hammer fist to Bai Hui and knocked him out and then stepped over him ignoring him, and carried on teaching the class.
When Bruce came to, two of Wangs senior students helped him up and passed on Wang's short and succint message, do not come back to my school again.
Thus he was kicked out for disrespect, which is a fair point. It just goes to show that a bad attitude can cost you dearly as Wang Shu-jin was supremely consumate as an internalist and would of been a treasure to of studied under, but obviously it wasn't meant to be.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Whilst Wang was teaching a class, Bruce decided to try out the infamous groin kick which Wang was famous for withstanding. As he did immediately Wang gave Bruce a Hammer fist to Bai Hui and knocked him out and then stepped over him ignoring him, and carried on teaching the class.
When Bruce came to, two of Wangs senior students helped him up and passed on Wang's short and succint message, do not come back to my school again.
Thus he was kicked out for disrespect, which is a fair point. It just goes to show that a bad attitude can cost you dearly as Wang Shu-jin was supremely consumate as an internalist and would of been a treasure to of studied under, but obviously it wasn't meant to be.

[Midnight]

RM,

Thats quite the story. I had never read about that before. Quite cool.

Thanks for sharing it.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Thus he was kicked out for disrespect, which is a fair point. It just goes to show that a bad attitude can cost you dearly as Wang Shu-jin was supremely consumate as an internalist and would of been a treasure to of studied under, but obviously it wasn't meant to be.

Did this happen after Frantzis said he was practicing with him and Wang shot an "energy ball" into his shoulder?

Doug M

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

Another interesting aspect of dissolving is trying to do it in the "secondary conciousness". Yet another thing that I'm not good at, so I'll do the best that I can to explain as it was explained to me.

If you are talking to someone on the sidewalk, your conversation registers in your primary conciousness whereas the sounds of traffic, feel of the ground or temperature of the air is noticed in one's secondary conciousness, sort of like "in the back of your head". An interesting, though difficult progression of the dissolving process is dissolving in your secondary conciousness.

This can be trained in tons of ways. In class we would try to dissolve while doing push hands or rou shou and telling each other jokes or keeping continuous conversation. Or while boxing, or while walking down the street, etc... I guess one of the benefits of such a practice is a pretty developed sense of relaxation during movement, being able to "walk and chew gum at the same time" so to speak and to be pretty aware of what's happening with yourself while sparring, walking or whatever. Thanks,
Josh

[Doug]

That is interesting indeed. You know, you have described something that I think about in the back of the background of my mind--something I have not really put into focus as you have here. I appreciate your willingness to post material that one may otherwise reveal in private.

Thanks again,

Doug M

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,

No problem Doug, as I said before, I'm no expert but I'm happy to talk about what I've had the good fortune to learn as best I can explain it.

Thanks,
Josh

[BAI HE]

Josh,
Even if you don't make it up toMass. this summer, definately pick Buddy's brain on the dissolving process or PM the grap out of him.
You'll get the answers you need.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,
Thanks Bai he, from the little contact I've had with Buddy; he seems like he's been around the block with Mr. Frantzis' stuff and has alot of knowledge on the material. Hope to see ya' in Boston.
Josh