Bridging against boxers

[KingMonkey]

Guys,

Recently I have started cross training in JKD.
All of a sudden I am dealing with live opponents who know how to stick and move.
Even dealing with someone like myself who has a month or two of practice and guidance at boxing is a whole different kettle of fish to your average WC only training partner.

Bottom line is my WC tells me to go forward against a jab dealing with it with my hands as soon as I meet it.
Problem is

1) Anyone with basic knowledge of throwing a jab, snaps it out and back. I'm afraid it's a physical impossibility for me to be able to react and follow that jab back in. I am just not even close to being quick enough and honestly cannot imagine I ever will be.

2) Most jabs are combined with a backward step (by the jab thrower) as soon as the jab has been thrown. This makes bridging even harder.

So to all you experienced guys who have or do try and apply WC against a boxer, what was your experience of this ? How did you solve it ?

[Ernie]

ahhh grasshopper

reality is a mutha fuka tain't it :)

i'm going to break this down on my site in the next few weeks
but i can only give you a road map covering different timings and angles , footwork and controlling distance

here is your first problem you started sparring before you used progressive isolation
[ so you have to deal with sensory overload ]

meaning you need to dial in your senses to a stationary jab , then a jab combined with foot work , then add in your footwork and work on interception timing , learn to cover the line and zone alittle chasing the hand will get you dropped buy the rear hand

this leads to the next progression same process as before add in the rear shot off the jab or by itself isolate it and turn up the heat in small increments

after you feel comfortable then spar lightly just working on timing and distance , don't put any power in yet,
your foot work needs to adapt and control you balance
the more power you put in to soon you won't be able to maintain you neutral balance and a boxer will eat you alive while you are making adjustments

you will have to develop your attributes speed timing balance power adaptability

technique or theory won't hold water if you can't apply them

but i'm very happy for you , your skills will evolve greatly from this
it when honesty sinks in and you can really work on the things that matter and make a diffrence


:D

email me any time for more info if you want

[KingMonkey]

Thanks Ernie, useful stuff as always. :D


chasing the hand will get you dropped buy the rear hand
Yeah this is what I felt, that I was in no mans land after I'd tried to deal with the jab, not even getting close to landing a punch myself.

learn to cover the line and zone alittle Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean here.

[Ernie]

sure

when you cover an area useing the left jab as a refernce point
you can use two concepts depending on your skill level

lets call them a point or a line

a point means your skill is a a higher level and can intercept the jab on a small point of contact , kind of how a boxer does with a slight parry
now we might use a pak just for the sake of example

to pull this of your speed and timing and distance '' footork'' have to be well developed . you have worked it so many times you see it coming a mile away .

a line is much safer you use a linear shape [ insert what ever shape you prefer here bui ,tan ,gan ,quan , counter punh to a fook concept wahtever] and cover the area the jab is coming from smoother the distance ,
this way you eat the position and cause him to have to adjust


still need foot work and eye sensitivity to read his shot though


now with a point concept you can fire back instantly
with the line you are securing a position '' real estate ''

on dealing with the front and rear hand you can apply both concept or double up on the same
trick is you need to shut down the power side before it loads

cause him to reset and hit him in the transition

[PaulH]

O Ernie, I bow to your clarity! Thanks!

[Ernie]

paul

don't bow to me bro go out and catch a few jabs to the nose :D

this type of thread is what keeps me around , growing through personal experience and people haveing the balls to share it

i wish there was just a wing chun application forum ha ha

get rid of all the history , linage ,trying to figure out chinese sayings crap

and get down to the meat and patato [ or tofu and yams in my case ]

when your really have to deal with some one ripping a shot at your grill

not a nice little discussion about chi over tea and crumpets :D

[PaulH]

Yup! That is you allright! I always notice that you talk from experience perspective. That's one of the reasons that I like to watch your shadow in this forum. There are other shadows at work however. I enjoy their visits here just the same! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

[Ernie]

there are many different types of experience
even my narrow mind knows that:D

but lets keep this thread on it's original course

[PaulH]

How do you cope with sensory overload?

[old jong]

Originally posted by PaulH
How do you cope with sensory overload?
By being able to act instead of react to different situations.Depending on memory or fixed patterns is always too slow,a beat after.
Developing a good line awareness is the real function of Chi Sau.Use that skill later in various sparring drills and free styles exchanges.Realise that various Wing Chun motions can nullify many kinds of attacks depending on the circumstances of the attacks.
Develop good footwork through moving Chi Sau and various sparring drills. Learn to stick to your opponent "down below" and jam his own footwork.Always move to striking distance before striking.Wait to have a clear line and don't chase hands.Instead,occupy the opponent's lines for defensive purposes and for making him having to adjust to you instead of the contrary.

Ernie
I can read about some good Wing Chun principles through your JKD verbiage!...;) :D

[Ernie]

by isolation

break the motion down into whole and part method
add in the timing begining middle and end
remove the ego and competitive factor and just let it sink in
through focused repitition

study the body mechanics , find the components needed for
this action to be effective , posture , position , distance
then learn to remove these components

break the posture
dominate the position
control the distance

all these area's can be trained in isolation or in comination at
varing degress of intensity

this way you relate to common denominaters and don't get
caught up in how angry or aggressive or emotional the
situation or opponent is

[PaulH]

Thanks, guys! Great thoughtful replies!

Old Jong, I can tell you with certainty that what Ernie mentioned is also what I have heard from Gary before. It's beyond JKD and WC. It's natural in all human beings.

Ernie, I guess I have to pay you to coach me some times on these. Ha! Ha!

[Ernie]

old ''j''

where you been

[[[Ernie
I can read about some good Wing Chun principles through your JKD verbiage!... ]]]

the terms and idea's are striaght out of gary's mouth ,
the concepts of drilling are from my own experience with many coaches of different approaches

what i learned is it's a universal thing how the body learns
you must develop experiences

by createing isolated experiences you can become skill specific

it just depends on what ever tooling or concept you wish to train

the thread that binds gives way to universal truths

i would excpect wing chun to have the seeds of these truths
but the training methods will vary on how to make these seeds grow :D

if you want to label it this or that go for it .

the drill i describe is a boxers jab isolation drill , it teaches them how to deal with the jab , there tool there the best at it
i just take the drill and isert the wing chun tool and concept
this short cuts the drill but gives the wing chun person experience in that enviroment

how he later apply it in free form is a matter of there ability to adapt .

[Ernie]

Ernie, I guess I have to pay you to coach me some times on these. Ha! Ha!


when ever your ready ;)



freedom is just around the corner ha ha ha

[old jong]

He He!
I was just teasing you with that JKD allusion!...;)
Seriously, I can relate to what you say. These things can be said with many kinds of words.It's the ideas and principles that really count.
I like when you say: break the posture
dominate the position
control the distance ...It's very central to what I teach and "try" to do myself.
BTW, you ask where I been?...It's just that I feel the need to train more so,I use more of my free times on that than posting here.But,I read what is going on from times to times.

[PaulH]

Oh No! I'm too Wingchunized for it! I like cozy neat little box to sleep in! Ha! Ha!

[Ernie]

old jong

i know your just having fun , train hard my friend , by the way your student i was speaking to is very well informed and had a great outlook on training and application , good work mr. jong





paul,
[[Oh No! I'm too Wingchunized for it! I like cozy neat little box to sleep in! Ha! Ha!]]]

the box is your own creation , not wing chun
just poke your head out and see ;)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ernie
old jong

i know your just having fun , train hard my friend , by the way your student i was speaking to is very well informed and had a great outlook on training and application , good work mr. jong



Thanks Ernie!
Yes, Alexandre is very serious in his practice.His skill is very high for a 1 1/2 year practitioner. That has to go with his dedication and love of the art.
It is a great feeling to see students growing up in something because of your teaching.Who would'nt feel proud in some ways.It's a big responsability too. I bet you feel the same.:cool:

[Ernie]

i am a baby in the world of teaching ha ha i think i get more excited the the people i train :D

when you see some one figure something out for the first time it's like a kid with christmas face


but on the real Alex is very well informed and open minded , this is a testament to the instructor as much as the student

not kissing butt just calling how i see it

there might be something to your old crabby self after all;)


any way back to kicking boxers in the nuts
oops
that's another tactic

[old jong]

there might be something to your old crabby self after all

I like to imitate Mr Miyagi in class!...;)


any way back to kicking boxers in the nuts

There goes one of our best kept secret!...:(

[Phil Redmond]

There are some examples here;
http://www.wck-media.co.uk/cgi-bin/wck.cgi
I train with a boxing coach in Canada and I plan on making some more clips regarding WC vs boxing. Adaptaion of your WC training is the key when against a boxer.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ernie
.... here is your first problem you started sparring before you used progressive isolation
[ so you have to deal with sensory overload ]
meaning you need to dial in your senses to a stationary jab , then a jab combined with foot work , then add in your footwork and work on interception timing , learn to cover the line and zone alittle chasing the hand will get you dropped buy the rear hand
this leads to the next progression same process as before add in the rear shot off the jab or by itself isolate it and turn up the heat in small increments after you feel comfortable then spar lightly just working on timing and distance , don't put any power in yet,
your foot work needs to adapt and control you balance
the more power you put in to soon you won't be able to maintain you neutral balance and a boxer will eat you alive while you are making adjustments.......

Were you in my head Ernie? lol

[Ernie]

Were you in my head Ernie? lol




universal truth will keep poping up , no matter how much zombies and prophets keep trying to confuse people with pretty words and fortune cookie sayings :D


hope all is well phil i sent you an email

[Ultimatewingchun]

Got to get my two cents in here...Ernie, Phil:

That quote..."here is your first problem you started sparring before you used progressive isolation..."

is almost word-for-word the kind of thing I've been thinking and telling my students for years. Taking this kind of extra time when learning how to spar/fight pays enormous dividends later on. The problem for some, however, is that there always seems to be another, and yet another, and yet another...sequence of moves to "learn" before they actually start sparring on a regular basis.

The answer, IMO, is to learn two or three different sequences and spar only using those for awhile...then two or three more....then put the 5/6 together...and as time goes on you are getting more and more totally spontaneous in your sparring.

I also believe it is important to start adding in other types of attacks into the mix early on that aren't a punch or kick sequence (ie. - your partner comes in for a headlock off-a-hook...or a double-leg takedown off a high jab, etc.)...

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

I came on line and saw that my man Phil Redmond was the last to post - came to this thread - read his and your last posts - and made my post about "adding my two-cents"...

But now I've gone back and started to read through this entire
thread...The Wing Chun Application forum you suggested is good - but absent that - why not here on this thread?...No lineage competition, no history...just application talk...for example - you're ideas about shutting down the line and taking "real estate" - shutting down his ability to throw the rear cross - using the footwork to set it all up, etc...now that's talkin' the good talk...yeah, I could say that TWC does it like that...XYZ doesn't - but that's unnecessary...

All that matters is whether such and such a method works - and if it works more efficiently than some other method...Okay...So be it. Without having to name or label which method is more/less efficient than others.

And when the labelling or the "that's not wing chun" begins...or when "this is what the true wing chun is" begins (as it inevitably will)...LET'S IGNORE IT and continue the application talk.

Anybody up for that?

[Ernie]

hey victor
i hear you loud and clear , i'm all about functionalizing wing chun concepts in a real world enviroment , and i know even though i got tons of knowledge and experience from the gary hawkins connection , i need to branch out and converse , trade and train with any one and everyone no matter what style of lineage .

when i talk with you or phil and a few other cats i know that we are beyond the whole lineage thing it's just individuals sharing experience for the greater good of wing chun and individual development

and i for one thank you guys for dropping science , more sifu's need to step up and say hey wing chun is great but we need to create modern training methods to help our students adapt to the outside world , that is showing humility and real concern for there students and for the future of wing chun ,

i'm not even saying cross train , i'm talking opening there schools to different training methods and looking into working off other arts to fine tune ther wing chun .

to keep the principles and concepts progressive , what works will still work if it is sound and true , so if there so sure they have all the keys to the castle then they have nothing to worry about by inviting some skilled boxers to there school or ground guys and letting them express there idea's


this would lead to so much pure honesty , but we know this will not happen on any large enough scale to have a lasting effect on wing chun's evolution .

hey speaking of change i watched the ufc fight last night and the ground game was almost non exisitant people are getting very functional at avoiding the shoot and working on there feet , guys are starting to develop live foot work and this is resulting in people getting droped by hand shots

my god there is hope


:D

well vic 'anytime you want to kick in some functional training conversating i got yours and anyone elses back

but all that history and chinese definition yackityyack i'm flat lineing

on the subject of footwork i wrote a little something something inspired by the pictue of william and wong sparring
it's on my site http://wingchuncoach.com/wingchunfootwork.html

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Loved the William and Wong thing...really well done and thought-provoking.

Just got back into town last night (spent two weeks in Virginia on business) - didn't even know the UFC was on...interesting about the strikers doing so well...what goes around comes around...but in the end - you do whatever the situation calls for - strike, kick, shoot, lock, whatever.

About shutting down the boxer, kickboxer, Thai-boxer, karate fighter...just about any body who holds their hands/arms somewhat to the sides of their center:

Forget the footwork and their kicks for a moment - let's just start with this "idea"...Start using two other centerlines (in addition to) the one you already use...these two vertical lines run down both sides of your opponent's body that correspond to his two arms...For instance he's standing with his left hand/leg forward and so are you...

Start thinking that you have two fencing foils - one each hand - and you are going to duel with this guy...you're left vs. his right battling for the piece of vertical centerline real estate on you're left...and you're right vs. his left for that other piece of real estate on your right...

Start to get the picture of this battlefield?

Now add your two legs and his two legs with the same concept....Only the kicking part of this might require some nice sidestepping footwork - so it's not always going to be your left leg stops his right leg and your right always stops his left...you might have to sidestep away from the side his kick is coming from (ie. -he throws a roundhouse with his lead left leg at your groin and you sidestep away from the line of force by moving your rear right leg completely over to your rear left - while you block/deflect with right hand gan sao and a left pak (gum) sao...

From a somewhat basic and stationary position at first - to be followed later with some attacking footwork...moving into the jab and away from his rear hand - being ready for the cross but definitely also the lead hook off his lead jab (watch his elbows like there's no tomorrow)...

Start learning how to scan his elbows and his knees constantly...and with peripheral vision looking out for the lines in-between those four points that are open for attack (like his head)...

and you're on your way.

And if he crosses the MAIN centerline with his punches then all bets are off about the above as well - you might use your left to get to the outside of his left in such cases - accompanied with some sidestepping and on-your-toes footwork here as well.

Ah yes - Wing Chun can be so beautiful.

And we've only just begun to fight.

[Phil Redmond]

Ernie wrote:
>>What don't you see? Fixed trapezoid footwork, robotic bumper car structure and Hail Mary chain punching.<<

You heretic you....lol

>>. . .live organic footwork, wing chun in motion, wing chun in it's natural state, not a picture in a book defined by a protractor.<<

You mean like in a real encounter? No. . . ;)

>>. . . we need to create modern training methods to help our students adapt to the outside world , that is showing humility and real concern for there students and for the future of wing chun, <<

Cheung Sifu says that martial arts is like a pot with everyone taking something out of it but never putting anything back. The test for Master level (there are only 3 people so far), in TWC requires you to develop/contribute a training method or technique either armed or unarmed as long as it stays within the parameters of WC. There are many new discoveries in keneisiology (sp)? body mechanics etc. We can't ignore that. The old guard will get left behind if they do.

[planetwc]

Who are the 3 who have gained Master level in TWC?


The test for Master level (there are only 3 people so far), in TWC

[Ultimatewingchun]

King Monkey, Old Jong, Ernie, Phil, PaulH, everyone:

Want to go back to King Monkey's original post on this thread - "A jab snaps out and back...physically impossible for me to...follow that jab back in...most jabs are combined with a backwards step (by the jab thrower) as soon as the jab has been thrown. This makes bridging even harder...How do you solve it?"

And Ernie alluded to (amongst other things) covering an area by using the opponent's left jab as a reference point - this way you're eating his position and causing him to adjust...

And Old Jong (Michel) spoke of the development of good line awareness as being the real function of chi sao...and always moving to striking distance before striking...

Now going back to the positioning and strategy I alluded to on the post wherein I said you and your opponent are both in a left front stance - and you're going to duel on two centerlines corresponding to the 4 arms that are in play:

IF YOU'RE SEEING CLEARLY WHAT'S HAPPENING - (I spoke about eye awareness) - and he left jabs - you move in with BOTH of your arms coming into his territory SIMULTANEOUSLY - you're arms are both "striking" into his territory with a jabbing type motion of your own - your right being an open hand and your left a closed fist - as you're watching his lead elbow directly and either parrying from the outside of his left jab with your right hand pak or the inside of his left jab with your right hand bil - while punching with your left toward the line occupied by his rear right arm - you're punch being, as I said, a jab).

So you're starting to take some of his territory - or at the very least - your meeting him on the middle gound between your territory and his)...and of course now all kinds of things start to come into play here: your chi sao contact reflexes and manipulations when you make contact with his arms is one example...another is the timing and distancing..How far should you be coming in without walking into a rear cross or a hook that he converted off his jab (or posibly an attempt to grab you for a bear hug or a takedown) is an art and a science that only constant drilling with a live partner has the answers to...

So be light-on-your-feet, shuffling your rear leg up at times to gain significant ground on your next step with your lead foot...having a backwards step of your own in play when needed (as well as a sidestep) - these are some of the footwork factors I'm alluding to now.

And from this basic strategy you will begin to see how and where the openings will reveal themselves - you will either create them or take advantage of his mistakes - like when he crosses (or you make him cross) the MAIN centerline with one of his arms and now you have isolated his arm by having your two arms on the outside of one of his - taking his other arm completely out of play (now the territory is REALLY all yours)....whatever it is - either he's crossed the main centerline or you've now got clear openings on one (or both) of the "dueling" centerlines...

You will find that you can go in for a hit on a bigger target (his body, his face, the side of his head - perhaps a kick to his lower body)...because up to now you've been "hitting" into lines where his arms were...

and you're on your way.

Now when you're in a different position against this guy - for example his left arm/leg leading against your right arm/leg leading...the strategy - though basically the same - has some significant differences that can result in an advantage for you even quicker than the left vs. left positioning I described - but more about that in a future post.

[fa_jing]

Great stuff so far guys. I think you have to see a jab coming in order to make a bridge with it, unless you have incredible timing. As far as seeing a jab on the way in, many fighters who jab alot fall into some kind of rythm or pattern. Or you might get lucky :)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Great stuff so far guys. I think you have to see a jab coming in order to make a bridge with it, unless you have incredible timing. As far as seeing a jab on the way in, many fighters who jab alot fall into some kind of rythm or pattern. Or you might get lucky :)

The six muscles in the human eye can be trained to see a jab. You just have to train progressively against jabs over and over. The same is true of any endeavor that requires hand, eye coordination, (Racquetball, table tennis, tennis, handball, boxing etc.)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by planetwc
Who are the 3 who have gained Master level in TWC?


Joe Sayah from Melbourne (now living in LA). Jerry Bolding in Kansas. Keith Mazza in New Jersey.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi David,
click here http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/history.asp
The names in red font made master level, and the names in gold font are provisional masters. Go to the bottom of this page http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/grading.asp to see the grading. Cheung Sifu is revamping his site http://www.cheungswingchun.com so if someone else has made master level I won't know until he announces it or it's put up on his family tree.

[yuanfen]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Great stuff so far guys. I think you have to see a jab coming in order to make a bridge with it, unless you have incredible timing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil sez:
The six muscles in the human eye can be trained to see a jab.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OOps- a slightly dissenting opinion- depending on how good the jabber is.

The hand can indeed be faster than the eye.
There is a book entitlrd "Winston Churchill's afternoon nap"...it is a book on the study of time and timing. There is a chapter on boxing. It reports a study. Some applied physicist or enigneer took several key boxing films, he studied them frame by frame and set up a way of studying the speed of punches.

In the case of Ali he took the pic of Ali in his prime fighting a German heavyweight
(I forget the name). As a reference point he also took the best
studies of what is the max speed of an object coming towards the eye that the eye could see. Somewhere around 70 % of Ali's punches were faster than the then established constant/limit for vision.The eye can be trained- but there are physiological limits. The German loser was also fast but only about 50% of his punches were faster than the vison limit.

His conclusion if memory serves was that highly developed radar like sensitivity was involved in boxing. A form of waltzing between opponents. Once a good jab is on its way it is very difficult for the eye to actually track the path of the punch.

But all jabs dont come with the same speed- even from the same person. There are lots of timing games with jabs. It takes a while to learn how to jab well.

The late Joe Jacob- an ex world champion handball player was also a student of boxing and a collector of boxing films. He was part of Cus DAmato's team.Tyson as a teenager was weaned on his fims.

Jacob once mounted two synchronized projectors to study the speed of Ali's jabs(in his prime) and that of the great Sugar Ray Robinson (middleweight). The heavier Ali's jabs at top speed were faster than Robinson's (which surprised me). But Robinson still remains the greatest- for his versatility.

Understanding lines and angles and developing top notch wing chun radar-reflexes are possible keys to having a chance againsta top rate jabber. The average boxer is a different matter.
And practising defenses against MA jab simulators is fairly meaningless for preparing for a top flight jabber.

yuanfen

[yuanfen]

Phil- a post script--Zab Judah will be fighting Spinks (I think next
Saturday PPV)- should be a study of good jabbing.

[anerlich]

Phil,

Rick Spain also achieved that level prior to his departure from the WWCKFA. He had developed his new "fighting system", bth unarmed and with a non-traditional weapon etc. as required by the curriculum.

How meaningful that is now is to anyone involved is another question. of course.

No disrespect to anyone mentioned.

Ali's reaction time was once measured against his time to throw a jab - he would always have been able to hit himself before he coud react, if that makes sense.

Excellent discussion so far, guys.

[Phil Redmond]

Believe it or not watching the elbow really helps me and everyone else I know that trains to do so. The elbow travels close to 2 1/2 times slower than the jab itself. I'm not sure where the people in these tests were looking but I wouldn't do it any other way. I always look at the elbow to interpret speed and angle of attack. One of my students is a boxer/trainer in Ontario. I get to test watching the lead elbow when he tries to sneak one in. Try it some time. Just have someone throw medium speed jabs at you then check the elbow. When you get better have them throw jabs randomly and faster. You will see a difference in your ability to interpret the jab. Even when it's not blocked you will have learned at least to cover the path of the jab thus diminishing it's effect. Later train against double jabs. The single jab will appear to be slower when you get to that level. The only way to accomplish this is live training. I'm speaking from experience, but I still get tagged every now and then. ;)
Thanks for the heads up on the Judah fight.

[Jook Lum]

Excellent thread! Thanks guys.

[yuanfen]

Phil- a point across lineage lines. From different perspectives one can solve problems in different ways- which is ok by me.

I have experimented with "watching" the elbows and dont follow that path. Lots of people can fake a person out with a little deceptive movement at an elbow, at a shoulder etc.

Also-- the definition of the lead elbow can be fuzzy with some opponents.Folks have two elbows. Some folks stand fairly square-
Tyson in his prime DAmato days and can fast fire with either hand.

Even those who are less square facing- among them these days some have developed fast lead rights with the right hand from conventional stances- Ray Leonard in his prime beinga good example.

Yes-I am aware of elbows- peripherally.

yuanfen/joy

[Ernie]

victor,phil, joy and the rest
running late for a meeting so i'll be quick

from reading briefly the last few threads , victor describes sectoring off the body , phill also having a visual point of reference

and joy pointed out the guys can have heat in both hands

very cool stuff

so what we need is a way to have a live isolation ,
joy
to be able to keep the rear hand out of the game '' to a degree ''
you can do the same thing a boxer will do circle to the zero pressure side

if its a left lead , go left
right lead go right

this way you can work of the jab and create a little distance from the power side

still being able sector the body or use the elbow as a reference point

but it would require you to have live footwork , if you try step and slide or push and slide foot work as is more common in wing chun
a boxer that is up on his toes will cut you off

[ now were talking sparring a boxer not a street fight , so you are in there working on tools not with a termination mindset ]

i prefer using broken rythem ,[ on attack mode ] and staying just out side his rnage so he has to stretch to meet me [ on counter attack mode ]

running late got to go:D

[Gangsterfist]

Boxing, boxing, boxing.

Boxing is good, and very effective. Stick and move stick and move. Similar to wing chun yet different. Speed vs root. Boxers move on their toes for speed, WC people fight on their heels for power. Things like taan saos are not so effective when fighting a boxer because of the dropping elbow (just like in a back fist).

A few ideas to keep in mind when boxing someone. First of all be prepared to move a lot (lots of cardio work here), and be prepared to take a few hits. Angle stepping and striking is what I like to do against boxers. Just gotta watch for that cross, it can be a mean punch.

From a wing chun perspective:

If something comes in, receive it
When it leaves escort it out
upon loss of contact rush in (from my understanding its more like flow in, not bum rush)
When there is form strike the form
when there is no form, strike the shadow

[yuanfen]

Comments on Ernie's nice post:

if its a left lead , go left
right lead go right

((Depends. In general ok. That is more of a boxing formula. But in wing chun it ...depends...varying opportunities)))

this way you can work of the jab and create a little distance from the power side

((Best wc attempts to control the source of that power))

still being able sector the body or use the elbow as a reference point

((Sectoring, elbow watching- not my cup of tea))

but it would require you to have live footwork ,

((Good wing chun is always live with foot motion-no matter how small or big))

if you try step and slide or push and slide foot work as is more common in wing chun
a boxer that is up on his toes will cut you off

(( I dont know what common wing chun is- atleast I dont mechanically push slide. There are lots of different footwork in wing chun- and again important to distinguish between developmental drills and applications. Some wv folks need to import things because of arrested development- agin the Bruce lee example))

[ now were talking sparring a boxer not a street fight , so you are in there working on tools not with a termination mindset ]

((Agreed (completely)they are different. Some boxers have both- Duran in his prime against Scott Buchanan. Some mindsets- different from what is common in ring or cage))

i prefer using broken rythem ,[ on attack mode ] and staying just out side his rnage so he has to stretch to meet me [ on counter attack mode ]

((Some differences in POV. There is a rich cafeteria of rhythms in wing chun footwork-not just broken rhythm. Variations. Dont always have to stay outside))

Yuanfen

[KingMonkey]

Great stuff guys, lots of good comments and tips.

Let's make sure we dont go down the oft trodden but always unrewarding path of nebulous WC theories and superior attitudes.

Lets keep it to realistic specific experience, strategies and tips to help deal with someone who can box (Not a WC student pretending to be a boxer, big difference and part of the reason I have been struggling with the real thing).

Dont mean to be rude to anyone, thanks.

"Break the posture, dominate the position, control the distance" - Ernie
Very good. This shall be one of my mantras.

[Ernie]

joy
agreed on everything
and wing chun does teach us to be ''the center'' and have the other person move around us thus we can cut there action

but i know you have boxed and so have i so i wanted to offer what it looks like from a a boxing view and how they shut things down

this way you know what your enemy is looking for

guys who haven't boxed aren't exposed to this information

guys who got natural wing chun foot work don't ask the questions since they don't have the same problem as some that are in the earlier stages

so before i jump onto the way it should be i try and put myself in the mind of the person having the problem

and i think back to the things that helped it make sense to me .

we can talk zoneing , timing rythem ,angles all day but to a guy that is just trying to aplly his wing chun for the first time to a seasoned boxer or what ever it will just be overwhelming

so i try to lay down a general road map to play with

after inital experience is gained then the real stuff can be filtered in since a reference point has be achieved

like getting basic math before we talk about trig.

[Ernie]

kingmonkey

[["Break the posture, dominate the position, control the distance" - Ernie
Very good. This shall be one of my mantras]]]


break each idea down and train it individualy , understand the components that make it work and then link them together


than chant it :D

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by anerlich
Phil,
Rick Spain also achieved that level prior to his departure from the WWCKFA. He had developed his new "fighting system", bth unarmed and with a non-traditional weapon etc. as required by the curriculum. How meaningful that is now is to anyone involved is another question. of course. No disrespect to anyone mentioned. . .

Andrew I can believe that. I've always heard that Rick Spain was an excellent TWC guy and could kick butt. I'm only knowlegable about the current people with that rank.

[Phil Redmond]

Gansterfist wrote:
>>WC people fight on their heels for power.<<

Not all WC people fight on their heels. TWC definately does not. We believe that's a good way to get knocked on your ***.
If a force is applied to you when you're on your heels you can easliy be unbalanced because your weight is behind your center of gravity.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Gansterfist wrote:
>>WC people fight on their heels for power.<<

Not all WC people fight on their heels. TWC definately does not. We believe that's a good way to get knocked on your ***.
If a force is applied to you when you're on your heels you can easliy be unbalanced because your weight is behind your center of gravity.

See, that is where I get really confused between TWC and non traditional wing chun. What is TWC? The Yip Man system? Or another lineage? Not to mention its pretty widely debated between that and lineages like HFY, etc. Perhaps its a misconception of training vs combat. Perhaps its trained that way in forms and in drills, but its not suppose to be that way in combat. I guess I was wrong when I said heel, I guess what I meant was the middle of the foot (not on your toes).

Then you have many other grand masters who have claimed yip man taught them this or that. Just because someone says its TWC does not mean I believe it, and honestly nor do I care. I am more about what works over what is really TWC and what is not. Some also say TWC is 60/40 and slightly back weighted, others say 50/50 etc etc.

However, it is IMO that everything you think you know about fighting based on wing chun should be thrown out the window when boxing. Not because its a bad system, but because you need to learn the differences. There is an adjustment period of trying to chain punch with the big ol boxing gloves. Some people can't make that adjustment. Other things come into play like bobbinh and weaving and hooks. Two things not really widely used in WC, but are definately used in boxing and are proven to be effective. The best advice I can give is just spar a boxer, and try to learn off of them. Then go back to your wing chun roots and see what can transfer over and blend and what cannot. Experience is key IMO.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Gangsterfist:

Since I was the first one on this thread to talk about NOT getting into Wing Chun politics - I won't define what TWC...how it's different...what it's history is, etc....on this thread.

Go back to the "Understanding TWC" thread that you and I spoke about once before - and read the post entitled...

LESSON 6: LINEAGE, POLITICS, AND THE T-STANCE.

This should answer many of your questions.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

I spoke of sectoring off the body - as an un-nebulous prelude to isolating and shutting down the boxer's rear hand...which is why I'll pick up where I left off and take it down a road that seems to be of importance to you (and you're quite right - the rear hand should be a big concern).

Yes...King Monkey - I am talking about people who can box - not just some wing chun guy trying to imitate one...a student who has been with me for about 10 years now...still to this day tries to test every wing chun move and concept I show him against the boxing he learned very well back-in-the-day from his cousin who fought Golden Gloves...

But before that - about watching elbows...yes, sometimes there is no real "lead" elbow - ala Mike Tyson...yes, there are those like Sugar Ray Leonard whose rear hand was so fast that watching the lead elbow might seem - TO SOME - like a bad idea...and yes, Duran IS a perfect example of both a streetfighter type of boxing and a ring savy type of boxing...biggest reason why he was my favorite fighter all these years I've been watching boxing...when he was STILL the lightweight champion I once saw him fight in person at Madison Square Garden in NYC and knock out a tough Mexican fighter in the 8th round with a single uppercut to the body...

His cut off the ring, stalking approach and almost always coming in (although in a very wily, broken rhythm, juking and jiving manner) was always the epitome for me of what real boxing is like in an alley...the ring - as great as it is - is an artificial fight setting.

Against a Tyson type (with no real "lead" elbow) you start by watching the center of his body in-between both elbows and then - when he begins say a left punch..you WILL react by watching the left elbow...and you WILL react by switching back to the right elbow if he suddenly changes (ie. - the left was a fake - it was really a right uppercut)...

You WILL do this IF you really drill and train your concentration regularly against your sparring partners...sometimes just asking them to move around in front of you and throw all kinds of combinations at your face, head, and body - full speed - full power...just stopping them short of hitting you...so you do nothing in this drill but WATCH the elbows and block/parry points on his arms and wrists.

But the KEY thing here is not just to watch and REACT to his elbows...... Later on when drilling live and sparring but you will very often ATTACK the elbows directly and/or PUNCH at the point on his body near where his elbow is postioned at any given moment...If you don't do this - watching the elbows will be a waste of time and probably set you up for failure.

Now back to where I left off - and how it addresses Ernie's idea about shutting down the rear hand:

I ended my last post by saying..."When you're in a different postion against this guy - for example his left arm/leg leading against your right arm/leg leading...the strategy - though basically the same - has some significant differences that can result in an advantage for you even quicker than the left vs. left positioning I described..."

Those significant differences are that I will attack his left arm area by striking into the lead elbow area OR cover (jam) his lead elbow with pak (really gum) sao...if I'm on the outside of his left arm or bil - if on the inside...while stepping up into his territory to the OUTSIDE of his lead leg...

Now this requires some serious fast-on-your-feet, shuffling, broken rhythm footwork... but will result in a faster and easier method OF SHUTTING DOWN his rear hand than when in the previously described position vis-a-vis your opponent. The reason why it's easier to shut down his rear hand from here is that his own lead leg will now block him out slightly from being able to turn enough to reach you with his rear - IF you steal the territory on his left flank...

Hence the need for aggressive forward (but slightly angled to his outside) footwork in ATTACKING the side his lead elbow is on... with the punching I described - or with pak/chuen (underneath bil)..with perhaps even a very aggressive bong sao that is EXTENDED - along with the wu sao BEING VERY EXTENDED...jamming him up on his left side - controlling his space and territory here...quickly converting by the wu coming down to an OPEN hand lop position ( don't expect to grab his arm - you want your wu sao to take over territory and seal off an area...

Then the bong hand can become an aggressive pinning hand on the outisde of his elbow...you're really taking his space and messing with his balance now...he's trying to back up or circle to his right to unload the rear - you keep following...

OR he tries to release his lead elbow/punching hand and hook around to your face - if you're close enough you ignore it and just start punching with both hands - OR -if not close enough - you cover the INSIDE of his elbow area with an open hand lop and strike into the area where his rear would be coming from - but striking at the face or the chest ...

Just some ways of dealing with the boxer - and shutting down his rear hand.

[Ernie]

victor
You WILL do this IF you really drill and train your concentration regularly against your sparring partners...sometimes just asking them to move around in front of you and throw all kinds of combinations at your face, head, and body - full speed - full power...just stopping them short of hitting you...so you do nothing in this drill but WATCH the elbows and block/parry points on his arms and wrists.


flash back big time imy old boxing coach used to put my hands behind my back and put me up against a wall and have guys just fire from anywhere and everyhwere

later i would ger the the ring and just practice footwork andhead movment this way

thanks for the trip down memory lane:D


looks like we are on the same page , especially on the outer elbow as a safety factor to steer or read his intent

but the angle and covering the line of attack are very sound ,

killing the power side by splitting the man in half another wonderful safety factor

hell all we have to do now is cover elevation changes arch lines with fall away centers [ when some one come with a over hand on your center but the drop elevation as the step off center ]
nasty punch

and we might have done a little good here:)

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Gansterfist. TWC is the name our organization goes by. Like the WT is used in another organization. It's still Yip Man WC. But like Victor says, this thread isn't about lineage. Too much time is wasted on that instead of how to use our WC/WT/VT.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You bring up some great points here, Ernie - about the guy who changes elevation - going low - and then throws an overhand that falls down on you like a heat-seeking missile from above...was watching an old tape last night of Rocky Marciano - he was something special at doing this very thing...

All the more reason, IMO, to really get down with WATCHING those elbows. Also, - when he drops down low - I do the same...

So he can't come at me from a line that I'm not in a position to see thoroughly...

when he rises - so do I.

Unless, of course, he makes the mistake of giving you an easy shot by changing his elevation carelessly - then just pound him from where you are.

[Phil Redmond]

Victor, Thanks for adding the part about the WC attacking as well. Like you said. It's not like we're just going to stand there and look at the elbow. We're moving a feinting and attacking the elbow. Hoping to draw him out. If You know what I mean. There are some example here:
http://www.wck-media.co.uk/cgi-bin/wck.cgi
Look at Cheung spar 1-2, and Cheung vs boxing 1-4. Cheung Sifu trained some peek-a-boo boxers in NY. He sell some videos and CDs showing how to utilize WC with and without gloves against a boxer.

[Ernie]

phil

the sparring boxer clip is a perfect clip to see isolation training
the boxer just feeds a steady diet of jab and jab hook , not to hard or fast just a point of reference to work off

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Ernie
phil
the sparring boxer clip is a perfect clip to see isolation training
the boxer just feeds a steady diet of jab and jab hook , not to hard or fast just a point of reference to work off

Yup, like playing basic scales in music over and over until you're able to improvize.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Hey Gansterfist. TWC is the name our organization goes by. Like the WT is used in another organization. It's still Yip Man WC. But like Victor says, this thread isn't about lineage. Too much time is wasted on that instead of how to use our WC/WT/VT.

okay, I was confused by that. It makes more sense now.

Thanks for clearing that up and sorry did not mean to make lineage a part of it.

[Chango]

Hello all,
I do not want to answer for the entire HFY system or the Chi sim system. I think it would not be of benifit to say either system would do one thing or another. Energies and other things come into play that would offer to many variables to assume one action or the other.

However I would like to weigh in on this topic. but as I review it in my thoughts I find it quite difficult to do so. When I discuss boxers I use my only experiences with my uncle and cousins. My uncle is a trainer and I have a cousin that is a pro boxer and other family members that are gym rats. Some have extensive high school and free style wrestling back grounds as well. So I really love to get together with them at family get togethers and play around with them.

That being said I have to begin by saying there never seems to be one answer to all that "boxing" has to offer. Keep in mind that these guys generally have very simular tools but still very different from boxer to boxer. Even if they have simular tools most of them put these tools together differently and stratagize as individuals. You take two boxers from the same camp and they fight entirely differently. My cousin that turned pro a year or two ago. His jab can make you want to quit after a few shots!LOL! But for the most part he is a banger on the inside with power in both hands. where the Super heavy weight that fights out of the same camp is a very skilled technition and will take you in the deep water and drown you. Same trainer and routine and everything. But different different styles. All boxing fans know the old saying "styles make fights".

That being said I can only say that I find that in most cases they seem to really get frustrated with the low gate challenges and Chin Na aspect. It seems they have to get out of the "sport boxing" frame of mind to even begin to be aware of kick,sweeps and throws etc... The ones with wrestling back grounds seem to adjust pretty fast but still lack the reational speed needed to address someone training in that mannor. But then as I said that is just them as individuals.

that was my experience with boxers and my two pennies.

Chango

[Gangsterfist]

I find fast jabs annoying. The elbow drops back so fast its hard to ride the bridge to a perfered target (head/chest/stomach). I tried watching the elbow like you guys suggested, and it does help. You can see motion in the arm, especially when its extending. I also started watching the shoulders too.

I also started looking at the torque power of a boxing hook. The twisting of the body kind of reminded me some CLF type stuff.

Would you guys think center line invisible type attacks would be useful in boxing? Like a rising punch (from chum kiu) right up the center? You could distract with your left and rising punch with your right.

Footwork:

How about pressuring and sticking foot work? Would you use your leg to keep pressing on your opponet once you get on the offensive? Can you even touch their legs with yours in boxing, is that legal?

[PaulH]

Actually GF, invisible attacks happen all the time in fighting. There are several methods to bring about this but I will just use Ernie's excellent posts to elaborate more.
1. Sensory overload. Cause a brain breakdown where it devotes most of its time dealing more with its own internal dialogues and less on what's happening.
2. Timing. Brain when excited under stress operated at higher brain waves frequency to cope with rapid and sudden assaults. If you deliberate move slow and out of phase of this feverish frequency pitch, your attacks are more likely undetected. While if you try to attack rapidly he will easily match your speed. Use calm to beat the rough as Gary said.
3. you fill in the blanks. =)

[Ernie]

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/crescione/wcvsboxing.php

cool little article on this subject

[anerlich]

Timing. Brain when excited under stress operated at higher brain waves frequency to cope with rapid and sudden assaults. If you deliberate move slow and out of phase of this feverish frequency pitch, your attacks are more likely undetected.

Are you talking about the rhythm of the fight, or some more esoteric frequency at which the brain operates, e.g. alpha, beta, theta, etc.? I need more info before I can accept the truth of this statement. Any web references?

Oh, er, your list ...

3. Fighting in a dark room, or cave. :D

[KingMonkey]

Yes, interesting.
I hate to seem slow but, re the drills mentioned in the article.

Vs the jab - the suggestion would be right hand pak sau ie outside vs left jab correct ?

Vs the hook, can someone translate, maybe it's because I've had a lo-o-o- ng day but it wasnt clear to me what was being suggested. Try and pak a hook ? at the elbow level, from the inside, it sounds pretty dodgy, have I misunderstood, has anyone had success with this ?

Paul, I like the timing change idea. Need a lot of experience I think to know when to use this effectively. Way beyond my meager talents but interesting idea.

[Ernie]

anerlich
[[Are you talking about the rhythm of the fight, or some more esoteric frequency at which the brain operates, e.g. alpha, beta, theta, etc.? I need more info before I can accept the truth of this statement. Any web references?]]


ha ha man paul loves words , if i described things in that manor i might confuse myself

i think paul is doing some creative editing on my statements of breaking the rythem of an attack that has fallen into a fixed tempo

but heck i'm not sure
:D


kingmonkey

don't get to far into the details just notice he describes isolation and progression , just like the videos that phil put up and just about the same advice everyone has shared in one way or another

keep it simple , insert your preferred tools and become your own problem solver that is really an important skill to be able to find the answer on your own on the fly .

like chango said no 2 boxers are the same the key is to develop your comfort zone and position , learn to maintain it and fire from that platform
the look and structure might take different shapes but the mind remains a constant

but use the isolation process to approach it in a controlled manor

if the jkd guys your working off are '' really jkd guys not just an offshoot '' they should be very familer with this type of training and honestly should not have let you spar until you had a few months under your belt .

but even in a free sparring match you can still pick a tool and isolate it . who cares if your getting tagged or losing just pick one thing like a pak sau and stick with it try and find the sweet spot you might only get one out of 100 but the odds will improve over time
you also develop self control .
learn to relax and stay calm during the fog of war when some one is bombing on you .
it's funny at first it seem so overwhelming but all of a sudden it goes into slow motion and you read the gaps in the action

next step captialize on those gaps

this is just an alternative incase your partner is not being very helpful

:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

KingMonkey:

Let me give this another shot about dealing with the hook from the inside - near the cruk of his punching elbow. I say "another" shot because I've said this several times in the past on other threads and a few people have taken issue with my answer to the hook...so I think perhaps I haven't taken enough time to explain what I mean by bil sao and lop sao - as they pertain to blocking/deflecting/redirecting hooks...

Perhaps the words bil and lop connote different images to different people...

Even a tight hook can be dealt with (ie.- stopped/redirected and neutralized) by a "move" that kind of looks like a combination of bil and lop...a SMALL thrusting type block (like bil) that is actually a CIRCULAR AND SHORT lop sao...the arm is fairly close to the body (not very extended - the way you would normally think of bil sao)...and it basically attacks the inside cruk of the hooking punching arm elbow joint - the "lop" sao open hand landing right on the inside elbow joint area, in fact.

And again - this requires intense visual concentration on the opponent's elbow.

[namron]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
KingMonkey:

Let me give this another shot about dealing with the hook from the inside - near the cruk of his punching elbow. I say "another" shot because I've said this several times in the past on other threads and a few people have taken issue with my answer to the hook...so I think perhaps I haven't taken enough time to explain what I mean by bil sao and lop sao - as they pertain to blocking/deflecting/redirecting hooks...

Perhaps the words bil and lop connote different images to different people...

Even a tight hook can be dealt with (ie.- stopped/redirected and neutralized) by a "move" that kind of looks like a combination of bil and lop...a SMALL thrusting type block (like bil) that is actually a CIRCULAR AND SHORT lop sao...the arm is fairly close to the body (not very extended - the way you would normally think of bil sao)...and it basically attacks the inside cruk of the hooking punching arm elbow joint - the "lop" sao open hand landing right on the inside elbow joint area, in fact.

And again - this requires intense visual concentration on the opponent's elbow.

And takes balance when done sweetly but a change to a low line rip or hook can be a sonovabich.

Quite hard to catch on the garn.

Any suggestions?

Good thread.

Good article Ernie, this kind one step sparring stuff or isolation drill used to be quite popular with William Cheung.

The article is basically the cook book I remember. As always good fluid boxing mechanics are a lot more challenging to deal with than the average joe or wc training partner.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Namron:

Good point about the low line hook being trouble - but if you're watching the elbow you'll get the garn down in time, but it doesn't have the same powerful effect as the bil/lop...

so try augmenting it by simultaneously punching this guy right square in the shoulder joint with your other hand - same arm/shoulder he's punching with...he'll feel that one.

By the way - you obviously got my meaning about dealing with the hook...but for others who might still be sceptical - let me add something I forgot to mention on my previous post:

Turn your main centerline to directly face his elbow joint as you do the block.

[KingMonkey]

Victor,

I'm confused about how you can maintain structure trying to work inside a good tight hook. I'd love to see a clip of this, does Phil have anything on his website?

Ernie, I understand what you're saying I guess it's because I'm outside my comfort zone with this that I'm looking for other peoples grooves to work down before starting to cut my own. :-)

[KingMonkey]

Oh and I train JKD with one of Paul Vunaks guys.
No Jun Fan, but I've learnt some good stuff and been exposed to a lot of different perspectives already.

[Ultimatewingchun]

KingMonkey:

In order to keep the structure is exactly why the centerline has to be turned to face the point-of-contact directly.

Phil probably does have this on video somewhere.

[old jong]

Just a little side-note:
It is great to possess and practice ways of nullifying boxing punches but, boxers have their own ways of doing that and they get hit all the times with jabs,croos,hooks and uppercuts!...Just to say that if a boxer(or Wing Chun guy)needs defensive techniques.He also needs controled agressivity,awareness and timing,things that can vary depending on too many factors.(it is always better to have the other guy adjusting than the contrary)
Remember: A real fight is not something you will get home afterward and feel good about even if you lost on points! There is no referee,rounds or corner help in a real fight and nobody will take his times to feel you with his jab there. It will certainly be a brawll.Being very agressive and focussed are good things to complement defensive techniques with.Even if things are not going perfectly.
End of side-note...;)

[Ernie]

kingmonkey

vu's guys [ the guys that reached full instructer level are very good ] so you should be able to work anything with skill development being the goal no problem .

as to your other remark man i am all about research and development learn from everybody :D



namron

The article is basically the cook book I remember. As always good fluid boxing mechanics are a lot more challenging to deal with than the average joe or wc training partner.


for sure , a guy that can really box , full package footwork ,speed . timing , conditioning

will wreck havoc on most

myself personally i have more [ fear/respect ] of a good boxer then 90% of the martial artist i have ever come across , in or out of the ring , alot of people hide behind that , in the street it would be different , like when a boxer leaves the ring his talent stays in the ring .
these guys like to fight and are conditioned to bang , anytime you have to face a fit , condtitioned individual that has good footwork and can hit with both hands hard . you got a problem


victor , myself i just let hooks pass unless i'm close enough to eat up his position and shoulder stop the power .
i have tried the different variations to stop a hook tan/gaan or how ever it is spelled

but the guys i worked off were heavy wieghts and there was just to much steam and mass behind them .
i have had to keep them moving back so they can't load

i got caught by a tight overhand right / hook and just like a cartoon spun in a 360 it was sooooo funny

[PaulH]

Anerlich,

I'm curious about your views on the altered brainwaves and corresponding awareness. Let assume that we're speaking on this. Why don't you show your smoking guns first! I'm a little wary of posting in haste and repent at leisure. Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

[old jong]

alot of people hide behind that , in the street it would be different , like when a boxer leaves the ring his talent stays in the ring

It is different for sure!...Nobody say a good boxer would lose his talent.But, he would surely lose the environment he is used to work in. No rounds,no ropes,no referee,no bell,no cup,no cut doctor,no coach,no mouthpiece,no boxing rules,no juges,no possibility to follow a match plan,no knowledge of his opponent,no gloves,no ring girls,etc,etc....!;)
Sure he still can use his talent...as anybody.
Who's hiding?....;)

[Ernie]

jong

man i don't know about your experiences with boxers , wouldn't dare to a ss-u-me

but the guys i worked with were rough necks , street fighters that found a place they could legally beat on people

they are much more dangerous out of the ring , these guys fight point blank and are conditionined to fight

my first coach was just a hair over 5 feet tall and had the whole short man complex he was allways knocking big boys out in the bar [ he drank way to much]

he could fire on people before they would ever be able to pull off any deadly kung fu move

i would be much happier in the ring with all those '' rules '' then toe to toe in the street

man they got a ton of dirty street tactics to pull from and better conditioning and physical attributes then most martial artist

look man im as wing chun crazy as the next guy but i also recognize a capable fighter and try to never under estimate them


i would much prefer to stand head to head with any wing chun high skilled wing chun man

then go bare knuckled with any pro boxer


but that's just me being honest

[Ernie]

jong one last thing came to my mind

these guys are just sick in the head man they get off on hurting people
sure they seem like nice guys and many are but once they switch on serial killer city :)

it takes a slightly sick mind to put yourself through what there conditioning requires


how many people walking the street do you know that take there martial arts to that level and maintain it day in and day out

and the whole age thing man the guy my friend is training for k-1
is 43 and shows no sign of slowing down

now
he is gifted i'll give him that and his life is only about training , never stops conditioning or eating right

[yuanfen]

Old Jong-Ernie is correct on this one. There are boxers and there are boxers.

Good wing chun training is better for self defense- less "trading" of punches if wing chun is learned right.

But a decent boxer should never be underestimated. They know how to work their stuff outside of the ring . Used to being hit-for some its a wake up call.They have a bag of tricks that are not legal in the ring but they know how to use them. Thumb, elbow, bridge, back of the hand, some know over the hip throws at close quarters(old timers practiced it), some know how to bite(ears-for Mike T- or thighs), unlimited in targets outside of the ring- rabbit punches, elbow down on the back of the neck, groin, they can punch legs coming their way.

Much better hands than Muay thai folks, tkd , karate etc.

A few on the way down in their careers become associated with low level wrestling. Joe Louis was sad example. In the movies there is that great movie with Anthony Quinn- Rquiem for a heavy weight- where he is forced to become a caricature of a wrestler.

Some may be befuddled by low line attacks
or grabs but many have street experience too and have dealt with kickers(soccer is a world wide game) and grapplers as well.

And some- Tyson, Zeb Judah etc- have hit referees in the ring too!!

Of course abilities (specially box v grapple) vary with individuals.

But many amateur and pro boxers have had street experience. Among well known ones-
Duran, Dempsey, Graziano, Sullivan, Tyson, Liston, San Antonio's El Toro-the talented (wasted) hispanic middle weight who keeps going in and out of prison, Tapia, etc...

But boxing is young man's game-though the firepower can be varried for a longer period of time-if the reflexes are not gone
and one does not end up in skid row or worse places.

Never box a boxer. Good ones wouldnt touch the UFC and it's peanuts.... unless possibly when they are way down-the Requiem caricature thing.

Boxing is brutal and Americans(getting soft-picking basketball etc) are going into it less and less-including the heavier weights... so its Lewis, Klitchkos, Tzsu,Pacquieo, Morales..time.

yuanfen/joy

[old jong]

Ernie.
Read my post again and see that I dont tell anywhere that boxers are mo good anymore when out of the ring.
I'm not talking about the occasional "monster/quasi serial killer/psychopat full of complexes!...;) I'm talking about the more average guy you might find out there.
I agree with you on the "psychopat" specie of boxers but agree with me that some "psycho" could as well use anything (including Wing Chun) to massacre his chosen victims.

BTW, I learned to "box" from one of my father old friends (ex pro boxer) when I was about fourtheen. I became very effective in the schoolyard but did not care for more formal boxing training.I was more attracted to playing guitar and dating girls.;) :D

[Ernie]

old j

playing guitar and dating girls

man those were the days :D now my guitar strings [ sitting next to me as i write this ] are rusty and the dusty

and i turned in my girl chasing card a decade ago [ as my lady likes to remind me i'm a has been :D ]

i did understand your post , and i know you speak from experience ,
i just hang out with some of these boxing nut bags from time to time , i even call a few friends .....and i have seen them in street action .....yikes

but the regular i take a cardio boxing class and spar my buddies once a week boxer that shouldn't pose to great a risk

as for the serial killer mindset , man your right i got a few guys in my school that are a post office hat away from making the news
and a ton of those nut bags in my new gym [ most are steroid cases ] 300 pounds of just plan ugly

crazy comes in all shapes and sizes and fighting arts to
time to take up needle point:D

[old jong]

There is one thing I'm sure about.I can even pontify about it!...Never underestimate an opponent...Boxer,grappler,TKD, untrained guy,whatever.Even Wing Chun!...;) :D

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
There is one thing I'm sure about.I can even pontify about it!...Never underestimate an opponent...Boxer,grappler,TKD, untrained guy,whatever.Even Wing Chun!...;) :D
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/52/bb0774.html
From BLACK BELT MAGAZINE, July, 1974: "Karate in Prison: Menace, or Means of Spiritual Survival?" by Anne Darling and James Perryman, p. 21: Another ex-inmate says the first time he ever saw a karate technique was in Coxsacki, a New York prison, in 1948. "The different prisons had and still have their own fighting styles," he says. They were prison martial arts, not traditional styles. In fact, Kid Gavilan (world welterweight boxing champion, 1951-54) used a Coxsacki variation, and Floyd Patterson's peekaboo style was a Coxsacki variation, too. Because of limited space in prison, we learned wall-fighting techniques. Then a lot of former G.I.s in the joint had learned hand-to-hand combat - they came home, styled it, made it hip, and gave it soul." Miguel "Miky" Pinero, while an inmate of Sing-Sing, wrote a play called "Short Eyes" about the killing of a sex offender in a house of detention. The play is now a smashing success at the Public Theater in New York. Pinero describes his introduction to prison martial arts: "The first thing I did in the joint was to check out the style and learn to fight with a home piece - somebody from my neighborhood on the streets. I learned the Woodbourne shuffle, an evasion technique that first was used in the joint at Woodbourne and got passed around. Then I learned wall-fighting, and somebody taught me the Comstock style. The Comstock style, named for an upstate New York prison, involves what one inmate calls "the use of dirty fighting techniques." The object is to lure an opponent into thinking he is going to get a "fair one - then go for a quick, sneak kick to the ankle, kneecap, or family jewels." (End of Black Belt article)

http://stickgrappler2.tripod.com/52/details1.html
http://stickgrappler2.tripod.com/52/Details2.html
http://stickgrappler2.tripod.com/52/Details3.html

This is VERY common in NYC and in most urban areas. There are even guys that can spit a razor blade from their mouths in between their fingers and then yell at you the number of stitiches you're going to get after they slap the razor across your face. By the time you hear the number you're slashed. This is for real. Of course every one doesn't live in enviornments like this. I did so I never underestimate anyone.

[namron]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Namron:

Good point about the low line hook being trouble - but if you're watching the elbow you'll get the garn down in time, but it doesn't have the same powerful effect as the bil/lop...

so try augmenting it by simultaneously punching this guy right square in the shoulder joint with your other hand - same arm/shoulder he's punching with...he'll feel that one.

By the way - you obviously got my meaning about dealing with the hook...but for others who might still be sceptical - let me add something I forgot to mention on my previous post:

Turn your main centerline to directly face his elbow joint as you do the block.

Victor,

Not bad...

Gave it a work out, still dont like the garn in that situation though (never my favourite).

Smashing the shoulder works well particulary as a jam even without the garn, although using two arms (one to smash the inside of the shoulder and the other about middle of the chest) seemed the best option especially on the half step forward, tended to retard the rear arm effectively too.

Do you guys drop the elbow into the inside shoulder joint as a strike? Different scenario but still a sweet tool..

cheers

[Ultimatewingchun]

Namron:

Asked..."Do you guys drop the elbow into the inside shoulder joint as a strike?"

Wouldn't try it unless very close...

Next time you work against the low-line hook - practice switching your vision at the last possible moment from his elbow to about half-way between his elbow and his wrist and use the garn sao block there - against the low hook...while punching his shoulder joint with the other hand.

The garn in this instance doesn't work well against the exact cruk of the elbow area.

[canglong]

"Bridging against boxers"
KingMonkey in your particular training are there different variations of bridge work or kiu sau dependent upon style?

[Ultimatewingchun]

By the way, Namron - it just occurred to me why you're not crazy about using garn sao against low hooks...the position of your garn sao arm at the moment you block - is the pinkie-side of your garn hand facing up toward the ceiling?

We do it that way in TWC...Didn't do it that way when training with Moy Yat. Try it that way...if you don't already.

[namron]

Hey Ultimate,

Re the garn I dont think its a structural thing, I just think the larp on the inside high is easier to cover (all things being equal) than the low line attack at that range. The garn seems too loooong against a good opponent with a tight rip to the ribs.

I do like the jam you suggested though.

BTW wrt the garn position my background is TWC so yep the pinkies pointing up.

Thanks for the advice.

[monkey man]

Ultimate/Namron - I assume you're taking about lower garn, but what exactly do you guys mean by 'pinkie finger pointing at the ceiling'? The whole back of the hand facing up, or the hand angled vertically with the finger up and the impact of the block being met on the inside arm (-surely not?!)?

:confused:

[Ultimatewingchun]

monkey man:

The hand is held at a 45 degree angle to the floor - the pinkie side of the hand is up (the thumb side is down) - and the area used to block the punch is the "ridge" (for lack of a better word)...the boney side of your arm - about almost halfway up between your wrist and your elbow - and you are swinging (or chopping) upward (at this 45 degree angle) toward the incoming blow.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
monkey man:

The hand is held at a 45 degree angle to the floor - the pinkie side of the hand is up (the thumb side is down) - and the area used to block the punch is the "ridge" (for lack of a better word)...the boney side of your arm - about almost halfway up between your wrist and your elbow - and you are swinging (or chopping) upward (at this 45 degree angle) toward the incoming blow.

Thanks for the clarification! :)

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
monkey man:

The hand is held at a 45 degree angle to the floor - the pinkie side of the hand is up (the thumb side is down) - and the area used to block the punch is the "ridge" (for lack of a better word)...the boney side of your arm - about almost halfway up between your wrist and your elbow - and you are swinging (or chopping) upward (at this 45 degree angle) toward the incoming blow.

Thanks for the clarification! :)

(I was getting a bit worried then!!)

[KingMonkey]

Canglong


KingMonkey in your particular training are there different variations of bridge work or kiu sau dependent upon style?
Not really although maybe the title of this thread might suggest that. We work to general principles, it is just my experience that these dont hold up to the scrutiny of a good jab and someone who knows how to move their feet very well. And so I'm looking for help/advice from WC'unners more experienced than myself.

PS - I dont do the Chinese lingo thing, if kiu-sau doesnt also mean bridge work please translate and ask again.

[canglong]

KingMonkey,
Thanks, you got it kiu sau is bridge arm work so you answered both.
2) Most jabs are combined with a backward step (by the jab thrower) as soon as the jab has been thrown. This makes bridging even harder. Sounds like you are attempting to bridge when it's time to punch the person throwing the jab only has the line when throwing the jab or moving forward as soon as he retreats he gives up that line and allows you to control center. Why is this true because as soon as he moves backwards it allows you ample time to do whatever your particular training teaches you to do to occupy and control the center never bridge for the sake of bridging.
Is there a particular principle training method in question or is there more to your scenario?

[Ernie]

man this is great
everybody has contributed to this thread from different parts of the wing chun family and it's been nothing but positive
you guys have given me hope :)


combined we can do great things


tony[[
Sounds like you are attempting to bridge when it's time to punch the person throwing the jab only has the line when throwing the jab or moving forward as soon as he retreats he gives up that line and allows you to control center. Why is this true because as soon as he moves backwards it allows you ample time to do whatever your particular training teaches you to do to occupy and control the center never bridge for the sake of bridging.
Is there a particular principle training method in question or is there more to your scenario?]]]

this would fall into the follow catagory , i would call this timing after or at the end of an action

upon filling the void which the person has given by moving back or retracting
there is still a threat from the rear '' power side ''
were they can fill there own void on a half beat or slightly angle with a pivot or switch step

i only bring this up because we all know in boxing the jab is a feeler , a set up but rarely a single direct attack

so when following the motion back in how would you address the secondary danger , if indeed the jab was a deception

as i move in i like to shut down or '' check '' power side as part of my entry , like a saftey factor trying to stay one action ahead


now this all goes to hell if we add in elevation changes and evasive foot work

but we can still have fun with the idea

[KingMonkey]

Tony

I totally agree, by bridge I guess I'm more talking about closing the gap.
There are a few different things I might try in training but my principal response to a jab (going by what I have been taught) would be a punch as you suggest.

ie

1)Opponent jabs with left lead.
2)I read motion and go forward down the center, attempting to punch with my right, popping my elbow out slightly in order to give a better wedging action.

Problem is as previously stated.
By the time I've recognized the motion and moved my whole body forward the jab and the man is unlikely to still be there, maybe a right cross will be though. :-(

Speaking in more general terms I must say that I am beginning to doubt the wisdom of trying to go down the center. I can only make it work against people who dont have any sort of a physical/skill advantage over me. For the most part I dont need WC to take out people who fall into this category.

I get more consistent success when I move towards the side I see initial movement from and try and angle to the outside, dealing with the offending limb on the way.
Not as ideal as getting down the center and striking if you can do it. But far easier and less dangerous to pull of in my humble experience.

[canglong]

Originally posted by Ernie
so when following the motion back in how would you address the secondary danger , if indeed the jab was a deception The option of the person addressing the Jab are limitless why because the person in this particular scenario is moving one hand back and one leg back and as such they are now facing a correctly postioned opponent that can either attack the most visible threat "power side" by doing so removing all threats one by attack one by retreat or attack the retreating side and moving to that side effectively takes away the "power side" or move straight in with two hands to effectively address one and attack and to defend simultaniously.... the saga continues

KingMonkey,
Hear you though thus far my teaching has taught to take an angle approach as well and never underestimate the opposition and always give yourself an advantagous position from which to do what you do best. If you have members of your immediate family that are successful at pursueing down the middle exclusively maybe seek them out for a little guidance but other than that yeah keep on doing what works best for you. You might also consider posting your question on my families forum hfy108.com.

[Gangsterfist]

We were talking about boxing jabs just the other day in class. I don't know how relevant this is to the current discussion but a few things my sifu said I thought to be pretty insightful on the subject.

Your pak sao is no longer really a pak sao against a fast jab. You chop into their center like an axe. A fast jabber will pull their arm back faster than it came out to strike you. This is where positioning comes into play. Step in and chope your arm through their center, you will probably make contact with that jabbing arm and try to trap it or at least stick to it. This will make some boxers (and people in general) nervous. They don't like things attached to their limbs, especially another person. Another analogy that can be used here is, its like putting a stick in the spokes of a bicycle wheel. The stick will stop the wheel from spinning. By directly affecting their center (of course you might take a jab or two) with trapping and simeltanious attack/defense can be a very useful skill.

[yuanfen]

Gangsterfist's post and comments:
We were talking about boxing jabs just the other day in class. I don't know how relevant this is to the current discussion but a few things my sifu said I thought to be pretty insightful on the subject.

Your pak sao is no longer really a pak sao against a fast jab. You chop into their center like an axe. A fast jabber will pull their arm back faster than it came out to strike you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
((Best not to stereotype a good jab. There is all kinds of timing possible with a boxers jab- serving many purposes including probing, distance measurement. Run away- if you can. There can be something invisible coming behind the jab- while you are raecting to the jab. ))

They don't like things attached to their limbs, especially another person.

((They can roll off))

Another analogy that can be used here is, its like putting a stick in the spokes of a bicycle wheel. The stick will stop the wheel from spinning.

((Good theory- if you can pull it off))

PS, BTW chi sao is not just for sensitivity - it is a way of learning
most of wing chun- with the proper perspective on chi sao))

[Gangsterfist]

I was not trying to make it sound like an absolute answer, just for that one given situation, and it could carry over to other possible situations. Sorry if there was confusion.

[namron]

I just know I'm gunna regret this as it is a typical IT DEPENDS question.

But......

Ernie - re the power (rear cross) hand do you tend to cover this by cut the inside arc (wedging with tan, bil, larp etc) or cover the outside lane (ie: pin before they off load, larp cover on top).

Both have pros and cons, of which I prefer the former.

[namron]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Tony

I totally agree, by bridge I guess I'm more talking about closing the gap.
There are a few different things I might try in training but my principal response to a jab (going by what I have been taught) would be a punch as you suggest.

ie

1)Opponent jabs with left lead.
2)I read motion and go forward down the center, attempting to punch with my right, popping my elbow out slightly in order to give a better wedging action.

Problem is as previously stated.
By the time I've recognized the motion and moved my whole body forward the jab and the man is unlikely to still be there, maybe a right cross will be though. :-(

Speaking in more general terms I must say that I am beginning to doubt the wisdom of trying to go down the center. I can only make it work against people who dont have any sort of a physical/skill advantage over me. For the most part I dont need WC to take out people who fall into this category.

I get more consistent success when I move towards the side I see initial movement from and try and angle to the outside, dealing with the offending limb on the way.
Not as ideal as getting down the center and striking if you can do it. But far easier and less dangerous to pull of in my humble experience.


Ha just noticed this one....must read all the posts before I put in my two bobs worth.

The angle work your talking about sounds similar to seeking the blindside advantage, except slighty to the outside of your opponent instead of headon.

i.e. take your self further away from the rear arm by stepping to the outside of the rear arm, which 'hopefully?!?' steals some distance from the rear arm cross.

If you can work if well the rear straight blast can be treated at a round/circular attack and the opponent has to cross his centreline to chase you.

Just have to read the play right, and learn what is bait.

Looks good on paper anyways

Anyone gotta match...

[Ernie]

namron
I just know I'm gunna regret this as it is a typical IT DEPENDS question.

But......

Ernie - re the power (rear cross) hand do you tend to cover this by cut the inside arc (wedging with tan, bil, larp etc) or cover the outside lane (ie: pin before they off load, larp cover on top).

Both have pros and cons, of which I prefer the former




ha ha yep it's a depends , but not in the way that you think
i don't really use '' shapes anymore '' i mold to the situation

i come in off the lead and disect the rear side with a line [ insert what '' shape '' you line ]

now if my timing is good i'll be ahead of the action and is just a saftey factor i will allready be hitting with the other hand

if my timing is in the middle of his counter i will stall or pin the powerside as it turns and still hit with the other hand

if im late i might have to pass it and work of the outside of the rear

the main key is one had is cutting of the power side while the other hand strikes on center

as long as i have either inflicted pain , broken his timing and taken up some real estate

the exact shapes and positions are not that important

i don't like to use any fixed shapes
one there to easy to feel since there forced in and a good boxer is very sensitive, this will activate his defense

two it's not really good wing chun if your jamming the square into the circle , gets into the force on force thing

so for me it's not tan bong or fook but the transitional motions in between

[Ultimatewingchun]

There can be no preference here - because you can't assume that you can get to the outside of the cross before he loads and throws...

and you can't assume you can take the inside and attack or control his center before he loads and throws his rear cross...

read the elbow and make your adjustments and/or steal the march accordingly.

[Phil Redmond]

Here are some TWC arm/hand positions. The TWC gan is used the way you'll see it so that there is never bone to bone contact with your opponent.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp

[namron]

Ask a silly question.....

But one dosent learn much by being a mushroom

Wasnt thinkin too much about shapes when I posted more of preferences/strategy.

Know where your coming from though make too many assumptions built on false premise about whats coming and the wall will inevitably come crashin down.

Life is humbling like that.

Thanks

[KenWingJitsu]

Great thread I avoided for whatever reason. I'll reply later. My concern was emphasis on watchign the elbow, but the topic was aalready brought up. great stuff.

[KenWingJitsu]

Ok.

great first few posts. The problem with watching the lead elbow only is........it works..........................................IF you know he's only going to jab. What if he "blitzes" i.e. starts with a cross? What if as already mentioned he stances "square" (a la Tyson) what if he starts with a kick? Watching the elbow works if you're only play sparring using jabs only.

When all tools are in play, you'd better watch his center (solar plex), with peripheral watching of his shoulders and hips (which clue you in on whether he'll kick or punch).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

I've posted this before...perhaps earlier on this thread - I don't remember.

Might seem a bit esoteric - but really isn't...so please bear with me.

What we do in TWC is watch the lead elbow with AN IMAGINARY LINE drawn down in one's mind's-eye to the knee OF THE OPPOSITE SIDE....so if I'm watching his left lead elbow I'm now talking about the right knee...so the whole body is covered with peripheral vision...If he starts with the right cross I WILL see it and switch my DIRECT vision to that elbow.

If it's a Tyson-type stance we DO look at the middle of the body...from there all four points can be seen with peripheral vision (two elbows/two knees)...the knees are important to watch because they telegragh kicks the same exact way elbows telegragh punches...

and needless to say...this is a DYNAMIC situation....the eyes are always adjusting ftom this elbow to that elbow to this knee...etc.

[KenWingJitsu]

Hmmmm interesting. That sounds a lot different from just watching the elbow...watching the line between his elbow AND knee would help you see most of his body I guess. I Gotta play with it.

Although, how different is that from just watching his center always? (Since that line goes almost through his center anyways)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

It's different because you ARE giving MORE "respect" to his lead arm by watching that elbow DIRECTLY...such respect deserved because that arm is his closest weapon to you...(those jabs can come in MIGHTY fast...

and the "respect" given by watching his rear knee with peripheral vision is not JUST because it now gives a "full body scope", so to speak...but also because his rear leg is a POWER shot (if he decides to throw it)...that can be delivered without him having to take much of a step (perhaps no step at all).

So the phrase..."Watching the elbows"....in TWC - is really just an abbreviation - it's kind of a short-hand...it's really about using a formula to watch both elbows AND both knees.