Weird bjj question

[IronFist]

Alright, I was just grappling with my friend. I know I'm a total noob, but how do I avoid this?

I was in his guard, and he tapped me out by trapping both of my hands and squeezing my ribs just by squeezing his legs together. It hurt like hell so I had to tap out. wtf? I didn't think that was supposed to work. How do you counter someone crushing you like that? He's got really strong hip adductors. heh.

Apparently he has good pain tolerance in his inner thighs, too, cuz another time I was jamming both elbows in there and he's still squeezing into me like above.

Anyway, do I just suck royally, or how do you avoid/escape from someone doing that?

edit - He's a total noob and has no grappling experience before today. And yes, that was the only time I got tapped out. Now, the other thing I was going to ask was, I'm 5'9", 162lbs, 9%bf. He is 6'4", 190lbs, and about 9%bf, too. Is his 5" height advantage and 28lb weight advantage considered a big advantage in the fighting world? Like for the most part I had no trouble handling him (except for when I'm being crushed by his legs), but even tho I have more skill (I've had like 2 months of lessons only), should his size advantage give me trouble?

edit 2 - I changed the subject line, which you can see above, but it didn't change on the main forum. Why is that?

[SevenStar]

His size is definitely an advantage, but won't guarantee a win. things in his favor are possibly reach and stronger strikes. He may be able to absorb more punishment also.

The scissor thing is just a nuissance....you shouldn't have tapped from that, just dealt with it - posture up, knee up his butt, angle off...basic guard pass. The thing about digging both of your elbows into his thighs is that he's got too much room to maneuver - you're not controlling his torso, allowing him to pivot, sit up, etc.

http://www.bjj.org/techniques/intheguard/guardpass1/

that's a guard pass variation where he controls the torso. it's easier with a gi - grab the gi lapels tight and keep your fist in his sternum, elbow down - like a vertical fist.

you have to be careful doing that though, as a tiny mistake will get you triangled.

[IronFist]

Thanks.

In that technique, I don't see what causes his feet to come apart tho (breaking his guard). Does just pushing his knee down by itself do it?

And when he was squeezing me, it seriously hurt like hell. I thought my ribs were about to crack. Even when I was in MMA class I've never had anyone squeeze that hard before. Crazy stuff.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Even when I was in MMA class I've never had anyone squeeze that hard before.

because when you're rolling with other ground savvy people, you know that it doesn't work so why bother.

How do you avoid it? Pass his guard. or don;t let him get to his guard in the first place.


and Seven is right. you shouldn't have had to tap out ya big sissy.. ;) (don't worry, we've all had to tap out to some wierd thing that we "shouldn't have"..)

[DragonzRage]

Quite honestly, I think your body might simply be too soft or you have no pain tolerance. Or maybe it just freaked you out since you don't have a lot of grappling experience. I see no reason why something like that should make you tap, unless the other guy is much bigger than you and has herculean strength.

If you get more experienced with rolling and do resistance training to strengthen those muscles, he shouldn't be able to get you with that anymore.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist

In that technique, I don't see what causes his feet to come apart tho (breaking his guard). Does just pushing his knee down by itself do it?

a few things - pressure - you have his body stacked, which is uncomfortable. It won't make anyone tap *AHEM* ;) but it can break/aid in breaking a guard. Next, distance - his legs only reach so far.

Third, you're pressing on his knee, further opening him up. fourth (they don't show this in the pics, but we do it) is when you stand up - step 3 the pics - you move so that one of your legs is in between his and the other is outside of him, similar to how you position your knee at the base of the spine in a seated pass. While you are pressing down on his legs, sit down, weight on your back leg, front leg planted on the ground, knee in the air.

I know that explanation of the fourth step sucked... that step is optional if 1-3 don't break it. I'll try to find some pics of it somewhere...

[SevenStar]

lol @ IF and resistance training

[Gangsterfist]

when somone has you in the scissor guard, elbow their freaking quads. Has worked for me. The elbow is such a useful combat tool.

[IronFist]

Quite honestly, I think your body might simply be too soft or you have no pain tolerance.

Or it could be that I have no meat on my ribs. Low bf will do that to you. It's the same reason I can't take a punch to the ribs (on the side).


How do you avoid it? Pass his guard. or don;t let him get to his guard in the first place.


Haha, I was starting from in his guard.

I actually felt kind helpless when it was happening. That's what p.issed me off. He had both of my wrists trapped so I couldn't elbow his quads. I was like wtf? I guess I could have tried standing up but I didn't think about that cuz I was so surprised that it hurt that bad.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by IronFist


Or it could be that I have no meat on my ribs. Low bf will do that to you. It's the same reason I can't take a punch to the ribs (on the side).



Haha, I was starting from in his guard.

I actually felt kind helpless when it was happening. That's what p.issed me off. He had both of my wrists trapped so I couldn't elbow his quads. I was like wtf? I guess I could have tried standing up but I didn't think about that cuz I was so surprised that it hurt that bad.

Well when you are on the mount position and they are in the guard you gotta remember a few things. For one, you have got gravity on your side. If they have a hold of your wrists get out of it. There is always a way to get out of any chin na, there is always a counter. Usually go towards the thumb is a good idea for chokes and joint locks. Rotate your hips and knee them in the groin. If they have your hands trapped on their torso use a phenoix eye or any knuckle and start digging into their rib cage. Grab the clavical.

However, you already answered your own question. You were in shock because you didn't know what to do. That is totally normal, and once you get past that I am sure you will do lots and lots better on the ground. Just don't tense up and struggle, remember to stay calm and feel out the grappling. If you are too tense you will not be able to tell until its too late.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
when somone has you in the scissor guard, elbow their freaking quads. Has worked for me. The elbow is such a useful combat tool.

That's not reliable...Try it against someone who's been grappling for a while and you'll see what I mean.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist


I actually felt kind helpless when it was happening. That's what p.issed me off. He had both of my wrists trapped so I couldn't elbow his quads. I was like wtf?

Step 2 of the basic guard pass - get your elbows in tight. If they are in tight, he can't use them as levers, and grabbing your wrists won't do him alot of good.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


Well when you are on the mount position and they are in the guard you gotta remember a few things.

you can't be mounted on someone AND be in their guard...

For one, you have got gravity on your side. If they have a hold of your wrists get out of it. There is always a way to get out of any chin na, there is always a counter. Usually go towards the thumb is a good idea for chokes and joint locks.

Grappler's don't usually lock the hand like that, they use a monkey grip - the thumb is on the same side as the fingers. It's a stronger grip than the one you are referring to.


Rotate your hips and knee them in the groin.

you can't - their legs are around you - their groin is in the air. If you knee them, it would be in the tailbone.

If they have your hands trapped on their torso use a phenoix eye or any knuckle and start digging into their rib cage.

pain tolerance...


Grab the clavical.

they WANT you to do that, as you have to extend your ams to do so... you would be either triangled or armbarred. Or, possibly swept, as you are bringing your weight forward to grab.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by SevenStar


That's not reliable...Try it against someone who's been grappling for a while and you'll see what I mean.

You could stab my inner thigh with butter knives and It's not going to phase me.

Grapplers build tolerance to the petty annoyances.. forget the "tricks" use the leverage of your elbow& lower forearm to pin his hip down while you create space.

1. protect yourself from immediate dangers

2. posture.

3. space.

[backbreaker]

The gaurd is now a submission?:D Actually, tapping out can work in sparring because you're probably not gonna restart if someone taps from a gaurd, so you tap out unexpectadly, then go for something:D

[FatherDog]

SevenStar and ST00 have been pretty much all over the correct on this one. I just wanted to mention that there is in fact a rib crush submission from the guard - you wrap your arms over your legs, so that your hands are linked behind the guy's back, under your crossed ankles. Then you arch your back like you're deadlifting - as you pull back, it forces the circle of your arms smaller, which presses the insides of your knees into the floating ribs.

I tried to gut my way out of one of these and wound up having to take a couple weeks off due to bruised ribs.

[backbreaker]

Interesting, maybe the guy thought he was just in a guard but was in a submission, I don't know

[ShaolinTiger00]

I just wanted to mention that there is in fact a rib crush submission from the guard

called "dojime" in judo.

[Gangsterfist]

That is the thing about chin na. It works on some people and not on others. One of my kung fu brothers has a huge tolerance for pressure points and annoying little pains (like rib jabbing), but not everyone has that tolerance. Elbowing their quads may not work, but pulling your elbows back in that same motion to try to get inbetween their legs to make space can be used as well.

A lot of it will depend on size and strength, and other apsects rely on structure and technique. I am not a big person per se (5'11" 160lbs or so) and have gone to the ground with guys smaller and a lot bigger than me. The more highly trained the person is the less strength they use, and the more technique structure you will find against you.

I do train ground fighting with choke holds, joint locks, and limb bars, but mostly I train to get out of it. I prefer to be on my feet the whole time so I emphisize a lot of my training on shrimping, alligator crawls, and triangling out of locks and chokes. I do train actual ground fighting because, well I won't always be able to control that, but I will admit its not one of my stronger points as a fighter.

Also you can grab the clavical and not fully extend your arm in a way where it would be really hard for them to arm bar it. If you lay your elbow down near the zaphoid process and your forearm right up their chest your hands will be right at the clavical. They would have to use force to remove your hand from their body, or roll over to a side to gain leverage, or move your body into a position to gain leverage. It would not be an instant armbar and break. Infact real combat happens so fast that they would have to be really on their game to snap your arm when you extend it. I am not saying its not possible, I am saying a lot of people say they can do that, but really couldn't.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist

Also you can grab the clavical and not fully extend your arm in a way where it would be really hard for them to arm bar it. If you lay your elbow down near the zaphoid process and your forearm right up their chest your hands will be right at the clavical.

If you do that, your body weight is forward, right? That's why I also mentioned that you may get swept.

They would have to use force to remove your hand from their body, or roll over to a side to gain leverage, or move your body into a position to gain leverage.

Arch your hips upward. Drop them to the ground quickly. You will have an instant of space to capitalize on. As you drop your hips, slap (pak sao style) or pull their elbow over across your center line.


It would not be an instant armbar and break. Infact real combat happens so fast that they would have to be really on their game to snap your arm when you extend it. I am not saying its not possible, I am saying a lot of people say they can do that, but really couldn't.

you gotta remember that these guys train solely grappling...making such transitions become pretty instantaneous for them.

[LEGEND]

"Now, the other thing I was going to ask was, I'm 5'9", 162lbs, 9%bf. He is 6'4", 190lbs, and about 9%bf, too."

I rolled with a guy who was 190lbs all muscle! He didn't kno how to grapple but his STRENGTH was incredible...he simply squeezed me and I felt CRACKING noises. There simply some genetic freaks out there that can HURT u by pure strength. Regarding the elbows in the knee to pass the guard...I suggest u do the knee in the butt crack escape. After you base out. It works!!!

[IronFist]

He doesn't have a cup yet so I was weary of doing too much "knee in the butt" stuff. Just for his safety, you know...

Yeah, grappling with strong people sucks. I know everyone knows the basic wrist grab escape (turn towards the thumb), but that doesn't always work against people with a STRONG grip. Especially with my thin wrists, sometimes people with long fingers can get quite a bit of overlap when they grab my wrist, which can make it kind of hard to escape, as there is no space between their thumb and fingers to pull through.

[SevenStar]

you're not actually kneeing him in the butt, just placing your knee there to keep him in place while you make space - his groin isn't in any danger.

[Gangsterfist]

If you do that, your body weight is forward, right? That's why I also mentioned that you may get swept.


I was referring to the scissor guard position. So you are already on the ground, you can keep you weight 50/50 or back or front weighted.



you gotta remember that these guys train solely grappling...making such transitions become pretty instantaneous for them.

Yup, I know those types. I train in more realistic way of fighting (IMO) the ground is not the ideal place to be. If someone clenches an arm bar on you, in a real fight its a break. That is why in a real fight I would start doing more drastic things to save my arm from being broke. If someone does get the best of you on the ground you will more than likely get a broken limb. I totally agree with that.

I have seen plenty of street fights in the past few years and most of them involved multiple people Vs. multiple people ( I live near a large strip of bars, so I see lots of drunks fight each other). Also, I saw a lot of groin shots. I once saw this cowboy kick some jock meat head right in the groin with his boots. That jock's face turned bright purple as he fell to the ground.

I do not train a specific ground fighting or grappling art like judo, akido, or BJJ so some of my ideas and terminology may be different from others. I do train an amalgamation of several grappling arts as supplement training just to know what do to do in those type situations.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


I was referring to the scissor guard position. So you are already on the ground, you can keep you weight 50/50 or back or front weighted.

Not a standing sweep - a bjj sweep - it's a reversal that allows me to transition from having you in my guard to being on top in a control posiiton. If you're grabbing my clavicle and your arm is bent, you will not be at 50/50 unless you have some seriously long arms.


I do not train a specific ground fighting or grappling art like judo, akido, or BJJ so some of my ideas and terminology may be different from others. I do train an amalgamation of several grappling arts as supplement training just to know what do to do in those type situations.

that's definitely a good thing. If you do get a chance though, train with some people who train in a specific style of grappling and see how they handle certain situations.

[backbreaker]

Better to be swept ( although it could set up your defeat), than tapped out I'd think. I don't know my point, just getting more posts

[Gangsterfist]

that's definitely a good thing. If you do get a chance though, train with some people who train in a specific style of grappling and see how they handle certain situations.

I do, thats where I learn all my stuff. One of my kung fu brothers wrestled through college and played football (he is a big guy). Another guy I train with every now and again has like 7 or 8 years bjj experience. He is very untraditional and just likes to spar and fight. Therefore, some of the terminology he uses is not "BJJ jargin" per se. He says whenever you are on top you are on the mount and the person on bottom is on the guard. Reguardless, I get the point and see where things are effective and not effective.

Personally I have like 1 year of judo some years ago, and 3 years in an okinawan karate that had lots of joint locks and grappling incorporated into it.

I just stress learn the basics of ground fighting no matter what. Shrimping, alligator crawls, and triangling foot work to get out of grappling situations.

No matter how conditioned you get, grabbing and manipulating someone's flesh always hurts.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Another guy I train with every now and again has like 7 or 8 years bjj experience. He is very untraditional and just likes to spar and fight. Therefore, some of the terminology he uses is not "BJJ jargin" per se. He says whenever you are on top you are on the mount and the person on bottom is on the guard. That is complete bull****. There is no way a BJJ purple or brown belt (or even blue belt) would call being in someone's guard "the mount" or being mounted "the guard". That would less likely than you calling a tan sao a pak sao.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
That is complete bull****. There is no way a BJJ purple or brown belt (or even blue belt) would call being in someone's guard "the mount" or being mounted "the guard". That would less likely than you calling a tan sao a pak sao.

Okay man just calm down a second. I know several people who teach kung fu and will not allow you to call them sifu. I know several very untraditional people who train and study martial arts. Just because they call something which is not a traditional motion, does not mean its BS.

Also I have seen some people who don't use pak sao and taan sao, they use slapping hand and dispersing hand. Not to mention tons of different lineages have different ideas. I have seen some wing chun people use taan saos where their fingers are at face level, and others where its at the nipple line. Some systems would call the higher one biu sao. So, your argument is completely about semantics.

Or perhaps I just mis understood him, since he is very untraditional.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


Okay man just calm down a second. I know several people who teach kung fu and will not allow you to call them sifu. I know several very untraditional people who train and study martial arts. Just because they call something which is not a traditional motion, does not mean its BS.

Also I have seen some people who don't use pak sao and taan sao, they use slapping hand and dispersing hand. Not to mention tons of different lineages have different ideas. I have seen some wing chun people use taan saos where their fingers are at face level, and others where its at the nipple line. Some systems would call the higher one biu sao. So, your argument is completely about semantics.

Or perhaps I just mis understood him, since he is very untraditional. Or, more than likely, he has had just a few BJJ lessons and claims years of experience- a pretty common occurrence. There is a huge distinction between being in someone's guard and having the mount.

While some people might not make the distinction (or call them different names) between postions such as the 1/2 guard and X guard, or side mount and side control, or high mount and low mount- no one with even just a bit more than a rudimentary practical knowledge of BJJ would not differentiate between being in someone's guard and having the mount.

Would you call a pak sao a lop sao?

[SevenStar]

yeah, knife's right. when I read it, I though wtf? but just kinda dismissed it.

[Knifefighter]

As for the original question about how to avoid the guard squeeze, here are a few things you might try:

- Keep your posture, then stand and use a standing guard pass to open and pass the guard. Standing makes it much harder to sqeeze.
- If he is pulling you forward and you cannot stand, use the can-opener. Reach around behind his head with both hands and pull his head toward you while pushing your hips forward. He will not be able to keep squeezing and will probably have to open his guard. Just watch out if you do this against an experienced guard player, as he will hunt for an arm bar from there.
- If he is pulling you down, but controlling your hands so that you cannot reach around his head, grab onto his pants in the lower abdominal/hip area. Use this as a frame, while you bring your elbows into his thighs. This may not open his guard, but your elbows pressing into his legs will keep him from finishing you with the squeeze.

[LEGEND]

"Another guy I train with every now and again has like 7 or 8 years bjj experience. He is very untraditional and just likes to spar and fight. Therefore, some of the terminology he uses is not "BJJ jargin" per se. He says whenever you are on top you are on the mount and the person on bottom is on the guard."

wtf??????????????????

[SevenStar]

was the guy taking formal lessons?

[qeySuS]

Well i think i saw someone else post it, but there is a semi-legit submission from there. I've never seen it break anything but it is extremely painful (for me at least!) and i've tapped a couple of guys with it, at very least you can use it to disrupt their breathing. Basicly for the subimssion to work you need to be on bottom and get double underhooks, then hug your arms around your closed guard and squeeze both your arms and your legs together. Only way i can think of to defend it is to not get into it, so try to keep him from underhooking you when you're on top. Otherwise it's basicly just something you have to endure :)


Or, more than likely, he has had just a few BJJ lessons and claims years of experience- a pretty common occurrence. There is a huge distinction between being in someone's guard and having the mount.

I've usually noticed the exact opposite :D Just last week a guy came in and said he had no training, next thing you know he's passing guard, mounting etc, swung for leglocks and ****, and his response when confronted with it was "yea i saw it in the UFC". Then his next practice he puts a pretty good guy to sleep.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by qeySuS
I've usually noticed the exact opposite :D Just last week a guy came in and said he had no training, next thing you know he's passing guard, mounting etc, swung for leglocks and ****, and his response when confronted with it was "yea i saw it in the UFC". Then his next practice he puts a pretty good guy to sleep. If you train at a BJJ school, you will get the guys who have trained a lot who will claom less training than they have. You'll also get the guys who claim to be injured and say they just want to roll easy, then power into an arm bar as hard as they can.

It's in the "non-grappling" schools you will get the guys who claim more experience than they have. That's because they can get away with it there, but would be quickly found out at a BJJ school.

In each case, they are trying to look better than they actually are.

[ShaolinTiger00]

You'll also get the guys who claim to be injured and say they just want to roll easy, then power into an arm bar as hard as they can.

I hate that guy...

and in judo class "light randori" will always get a chuckle out of anyone who's been around for at least a few years.. such a thing doesn't exist after one person gets thrown.

[SevenStar]

I hate that guy too... he's responsible for popping my arm last year.

[norther practitioner]

How come in pic 3, the guy who is getting passed, doesn't just go for an armbar, or is that a counter...

[Ralphie]

NP, prolly because he's pushing him down with the hand that's on his chest, and he's got one hand/elbow at the guys hip. So, if he opens his guard here, the guy standing will push his hips/legs down, and be 1/2 way to passing guard.

[norther practitioner]

Cool, thanks Ralphie...

[SevenStar]

also, the hand on the hip keeps the leg checked - he will feel the motion of the hip, so if the guy did attempt to arm bar, he'd know and respond accordingly (brazilian chai sau :p) controlling his hips and pressure on the chest also makes it extremely dificult to move in sucha a direction.

In the next frame, notice that he's controlling the opposite leg now - same thing applies - he's keeping the leg checked so the guy can't do anything with it.