Generation Vs. Time studied Who Has Seniority?!!!!!!

[SiHingJow]

I understand some people say because they are closer generation to the founder they are in a Senior Ranking position than some one of a younger generation. I look at that and say that can and can't be true. If I have study a system for 8 yrs. and someone who has come to my Si-gung for 1yr I can't see how that person is senior by way of developement in comparison to myself in a system. And because most systems are based on some kind of family lineage I would put it like this.
I would be like having a young uncle or aunt in your family who is younger than you but position is the same as your father. However you are older .....

Anyone have any Insight on this??//////

[CLFNole]

The person who follows the sifu 1st is always senior to hing dai that come later. It has nothing to do with skill level at all. It is just like a family system in that they are older brothers or sisters. They may be senior to you in terms of the family structure but in no way shape or form to one's skill level.

It is common for juniors to become assistant instructors, instructors and even sifus while their sihings just remain students. However that person is still your sihing and your students would refer to him as sibak.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Is there a distinction between a disciple vs. being simply a student? Perhaps this distinction is a bit unclear as the traditions are not followed as closely as they were.

For example, in my Kung Fu school, any student who joins becomes part of the "family." They call my teacher Sifu and I am there SiHing. There is not distinction between student and disciple. If you stay with my teacher long enough he will simply teach you what he knows.

In my Taiji school it is very different. We are not allowed to call my Taiji teacher's teacher Shr Gung. We simply refer to him as Lao Shr which is a generic title for teacher. If we were to call him Shr Gung we would have to formally be accepted as a disciple of my Taiji teacher and I imagine go through the Bai Si ceremony and such. This seems to be more traditional.

So in this way I think things are a little messed up. I don't think you should be expected to call someone "Si Hing" if they trained one year with your Sifu like 20 years ago and you're essentially a "disciple" who has trained with him for close to 20 years. If the old traditions were followed this would make more sense as the guy who trained for one year would never have been accepted as a disciple so you would not be expected to call him Si Hing.

I could be totally wrong on this as I am not Chinese and I'm just making an argument out of what I know of Chinese culture.

Peace.

[cerebus]

I think what he actually asked was something like this: Using (for the sake of convenience) the term "sifu" to refer to Sihingjow's teacher and "sigung" to mean his sifu's teacher, if Sihingjow has trained for 8 years with his sifu and Joe-bob trains with Sihingjow's sigung for a year or two (basically putting him at a similar "generational" level as Sihingjow's sifu) who is senior, Sihingjow or Joe-bob?

[Fu-Pow]

Well I think the confusion stems from who's "in" the family and who "isn't." Traditionally you had to be "accepted" into the kung fu family. Nowadays you simply pay your first months tuition and your "in" the family. So historically I don't think the guy who had trained one year with the "SiGung" would be "in" the family. Where as the guy who trained 8 years probably would be.

[David Jamieson]

can you be si hing to your si suk?

that's a pretty good question.

my personal spin is,

whoever started studying first in the style is si hing.

especially these days where you have a situation where someone is still taking new students even though they have sifu under them.

I would think that normally, a sigung would continue to train his students who were sifus and would send all noobs to those sifus.

however, it could be a money thing.

if the guy under the sigung is making noise about it, just smack him down with your superior fu and make him wash your car in an apron and nothing else.

that'll solve things I think. :D

[ZhouJiaQuan]

haha, very confusing question indeed. I have no idea what to tell people to call me... im younger uncle to some...older to some... i dunno anymore... i just stopped caring really... if your better your better... if your worse your worse...

thats it for me... somtetimes titles are rarley worth the ink there printed in

[travelsbyknight]

I'm a bit confused by the origional post but here's my spin on things.


If some dude studied twenty years ago...and then comes back...THEN HE GOES BACK TO THE BOTTOM OF THE TODUM POLE.

[David Jamieson]

If some dude studied twenty years ago...and then comes back...THEN HE GOES BACK TO THE BOTTOM OF THE TODUM POLE.

nope, he's still your sihing especially if you both have the same sifu. simply because he "started" before you.

In actuality, thgis is why I don't much care for the filial piety structure. It really is just a big pizzing contest.

sure, there are one or maybe two sifu out there who actually are "father" to their students, but in my experience this for the most part is not true in the greater picture.

most of it is shallow and empty ego and posturing. sorry if that upsets anyone and if it does, too bad, you're seeing it through your own preconceptions. :D

cheers

[travelsbyknight]

By your own argument, I could say you're seeing what you want to see because of your own preconceptions.

Ok, one guy joins then leaves for a while. I join sometime after he leaves. Guy A comes back. But I become a Senior before him...which automatically makes me his Senior.

[David Jamieson]

not really, si hing isn't about rank, it's about who started first.

He started before you, ergo he will always be your sihing regardless of your different skill levels.

I had a sihing in teh school i used to attend, he started way before me, and my knowledge and skill surpased his. Even though I held a black sash, and he called ME sihing, in actuality he was my sihing and i always recognized that.

This preoccupation with rank in the filial piety structure just irks me. I have totally moved into a whole different plateau of training and have essentially left behind all teh baggage and garbage associated with rank and all that other mumbo jumbo.

It has helped me progress immensly and share unselfishly and learn from others with much more depth in the simplest things, which in my mind is more important than who came when and who knows what.

Just sayin.

cheers

[SifuAbel]

On his death bed, Alexander was aked, "Who will be your succesor?". He answered, "Whoever is stongest."

Words to live by.

[saolim]

Check this out; I made it a few years ago.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/info-kungfu-supply/martial/images/kung_f6.gif

[David Jamieson]

Abel-

Provided one wants to succeed another. :D

Sometimes it is better to plant your own seed.

After all, Alexander stands alone despite his heirs...

Everyone remembers Alexander the most.

[SifuAbel]

well, somebody had to run things..............

[WinterPalm]

Although I suppose Sihing refers to an older brother. Because this is martial arts, then the Sifu chooses who is the older brother. I have a fellow student that studied for several years and then left. Since then I joined and then he rejoined. We are now at the same level and our relationship is that of equals.

If a student leaves a kwoon on bad terms or does not prove himself when he returns, then the Sifu can put his rank at whatever standing and also remove any titles previously given. Unless the student is formally recognized as a Sihing by his Sifu, will any other student call him so. I believe the same refers to a Sifu in regard to receiving the title from his Sifu, my Sigung. As long as his Sifu regards him in this light, I shall continue to. Without people and standards, set by Sifu years and years ago and passed onto the students and new Sifu, there will be countless schools with Sifu that are not but are false and not capable of being what they are. I believe at times other actions can occur if students decide to teach and have not received the ok from their Sifu. This is not some simple skill like tying your shoes or riding a bike, this is so much more and for one to receive recognition they must be capable of what they are taught.

That's how it seems to me, anyway.

[David Jamieson]

see that's where the gravy tastes funny.

In traditional Chinese martial arts, there is no "Rank". There is the teacher, the teachers disciples and the students. These are not ranks.

sihing is not a term of "rank". It's a term of filial piety. These are two different things. When people start making sifu, sigung, sihing et al into ranks, they are co-opting a structure that is the same as your own family structure and basically changing it into something it wasn't intended to be originally.

anyway, there you have it.


cheers

[Fu-Pow]

Except its not a "family" in a sense that you are born into the family. In this "family" you have to be accepted into it. Each teachers standard for acceptance is different.

Some teacher you are just accepted when you start training. Other teachers there is a "trial period" before you are formally accepted as a student.

But Kung Lek is right in the sense that once you are "in" it is a family structure, not a rank hierarchy.

For example, as a Sihing I can tell my Sidai to do something but he has about as much chance of doing at as my real brother....which is slim to none...haha:D

[David Jamieson]

yeah and you can get disowned too! Just like real family! LOL

this doesn't negate the information taken or the skills built though.

so...

rank, in my opinion is just stupid anyway.

The only thing that counts is the practice.

No one stays on top forever, so what is the use of rank?

cheers