interesting judo article

[SevenStar]

http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

[backbreaker]

" How you you master an eye gouge?" :eek:

So from Joe Rogan's and a grapplers pespective, so-called martial arts maybe really have improved more in the last 10 years than the last 80 or 100 or so?

[blooming lotus]

haven't read it but just like 5mins ago made to self to find exactly that...lol

cheers :cool:

[ShaolinTiger00]

Mark Tripp is a colorful guy. He usually invokes a "love or hate" response from the judo crowd.

[Oso]

good article.

how much truth is there in it?

now, I'm gonna have to go back over what notes I have on Wally Jay's small circle.

[SevenStar]

some of it is - I'm not sure about the conflict between kano and the govt, or the part about judo's sport nature not being his original intention.

I'm not real familiar with the author either - ST may know more.

[Oso]

it all sounds reasonable.

i don't know squat about judo history except who Kano is and that his origination of belt/rank bled into all the other arts.

I printed a copy to take to my jujitsu sensei for him to read.

[ShaolinTiger00]

how much truth is there in it?

A good deal.

but the devil is in the details.. and this is where arguments will arise.

[backbreaker]

The most interesting thing to me, was where he mentioned that the basic judo/jujutsu body training looked like Yoga.

[blooming lotus]

good read regardless.....I figure that by the flavour of his writing, he probably expects that some of it will contraversial.


What i want to know is what is newaza?...and does the jitsu history relate to ninjitsu...now tht I think about it, it looks like it could share some origin.

and .....oh yah...does that we should all sign up for tae-bo now :D :confused: :D



PS...Long live the Gracies ;)

[SevenStar]

newaza is ground work.

jutsu is japanese for art. There's a connection to ninjutsu, but not because of that term. "jutsu" is used in any system of combat. systems that are more geared towards way of life have "do" in them. karate jutsu is a purely combat art. karate do is a way of life.

as I stated in the judo/jjj thread, there are over 725 known styles of jujutsu. ninjutsu means the art of stealth, but I'm thinkng that term is used since they are assasins - they are taught the art of stealth and they work in stealth - that's just specualation on my part though - I dunno how it got it's name.

Anyway, ninjustu is a combination of various arts - ninjutsu, bojustu, battou jutsu, taijutsu, kenjutsu... taijutsu means "body art" and makes up the throwing, locking, etc. that they were trained in. taijutsu in some circles is used synonymously with the term jujutsu, from what I understand.

[Oso]

fwiw, i'd heard 'taijutsu' also as 'body art' but applied in skills such as balancing, leaping, crawling, climbing and other movement. {shrug}

[Mr Punch]

I've heard 'taijutsu' for both that description Oso, and Seven Star's. Otherwise SevenStar is on the nail about 'jutsu'. BTW just watched a mad program they have on over here about every six months called 'Sasuke'
(an old ninja name). It's the toughest one of those obstacle course games I've ever seen!!! Mad skills!

Great article. I'd heard bits and bobs agreeing with bits and bobs of that from people here too. Gives me a bit more substance.

Not that it matters but I think the only words he spelt right were 'judo' and 'jujutsu'!

[blooming lotus]

so now spelling doesn't matter??? sheesh...tell that to some other folks around here:rolleyes:

7*

cheers, just asking because I did a little ninjitsu/jutsu myself and ...doesn't matter

thx for the read

[SevenStar]

did you? Was it at a school recognized by the bujinkan?

[blooming lotus]

I have no freakin idea...It was only for a few months but because I already have roots in aikdo..I guess it was pretty similar, excpet that ninjitsu seems more linear and crisp whereas aikido is more flowy and circular?? and the rolls...ninjitsu do handplant right, and aikdo does the leading shoulder roll...since they're all jitsus obviously they share root, but I don't think ever read anything connecting them

[Ray Pina]

"Just like some people in this country go into the woods and play 'Civil War' for a few weeks ..... These are not living, changing, adapting systems; but people who enjoy playing samurai."

I found that to be the most powerful message: the need to aproach one's training seriously and focus it towards the desired end.

Want to be great fighter? Maybe put down the Kwan Doa and pick up the 10 oz gloves.

Anyway, I remember my teacher telling me a while ago that BJJ is actually closer to the Judo he learned as a young man that JJJ... saying that Judo today has become too focused on sport.

Since I've begun to work and test the ground game, I've found that BJJ players feel very different from JJJ and Akido players. The later "understand" the locks and can apply them when demonstrating, but lack the power to pull them off in real play (just the experience I have had with the folks I have played with). The BJJ guys have the technical power, they feel different to me.

[red5angel]

Want to be great fighter? Maybe put down the Kwan Doa and pick up the 10 oz gloves.

This could be misleading, there is still a place for that kwondao....

[lkfmdc]

put on the 10 oz gloves

knock him out

roll him on his stomach

find a place for the kwando :D

[lkfmdc]

on a serious note, Mark Tripp is a friend of mine. He's controversial, he speaks his mind and doesn't care if you disagree. He's also a brilliant coach with a wealth of knowledge on both grappling in ALL forms and real world self defense, the ONLY gun disarms I ever believed in HE taught me!

I think I've read the article before, certainly know Mark's thoughts on these subjects, the "randori" concept, ie that it's not just a "sport" but a method of live training, is so crucial to today's MA issues in my opinion

Doing something just because that's how they did it 100 years ago isn't the answer, it's anachronism (sp?)... Swinging a sword around in silk PJ's really is the equivalent of dressing up in a Confederate uniform and firing a flint lock musket. That's how people USED TO FIGHT, they dont' fight that way today

Another analogy is in Western fencing, originally all schools switched feet when fighting, one school decided to stick to one lead forward.

When the one lead forward guys started killing all the foot switchers, those who wanted to LIVE switched methods.

Judo is to Jujitsu what San Shou is to TCMA.... think about that

Did this article mentioned the guys the Judo people KILLED in duels??

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Want to be great fighter? Maybe put down the Kwan Doa and pick up the 10 oz gloves. If you want to be a better fighter FASTER, maybe...

Kwan Dao play has it's place as an exercise. Throwing a 30-lb weapon around certainly works out your arms, shoulders, and back.

Focus is the key issue. If you focus on the Kwan Dao, you'll get at the Kwan Dao. If you focus on fighting, you get good at fighting. But you don't have to have tunnel-vision to get good at either.

[Ray Pina]

"If you focus on the Kwan Dao, you'll get at the Kwan Dao. If you focus on fighting, you get good at fighting."

That's all I was saying.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B. The later "understand" the locks and can apply them when demonstrating, but lack the power to pull them off in real play [/B]

That's a bit of a genrealisation..I don't think that I've ever fought a bjj dude, but I can guarantee you I can as a part aikdo stylist execute my takedowns and my holds

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
did you? Was it at a school recognized by the bujinkan? If it's recognized by anybody it's not secret enough to be real ninjutsu! :p :D

[rogue]

Interesting article. I've heard some identical things about karate before and after WWII.

[Ray Pina]

Blooming Lotus, I was stressing FROM MY EXPERIENCE. I'm sure there are some rough and tough Aikido guys out there. Just the guys I played with lacked any real power in the technical sense. If you give it to them they can lock you into next week, but the simplist pulling your arm back into an arm wrestle position and pulling back of the elbow nullified everything.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm sure there are some rough and tough Aikido guys out there.

I'm not so sure. I've seen plenty get thumped by judoka in my own dojo.

[Mr Punch]

To me, the spirit of aikido is punching somebody repeated in the face and THEN putting the lock on! It works for me!:D

Actually, I'm half joking... actually, I prefer kicking them repeatedly in the shins, locking their knee up and slamming the hip in while I chuck em on their heads. Punching them in the face and locking them are added extras. ;)

YMMV.
It's all a matter of perspective.
And it is all aikido to me.
Unfortunately that's why I can't find what I'd call a decent aiki dojo...:(

[SevenStar]

isn't that approach against the philosophy of aikido?

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
isn't that approach against the philosophy of aikido? Whose? Which? THE philosophy of aikido...?

If you're talking about Kisshomaru Ueshiba's expression of his father's later beliefs in the book 'The Spirit of Aikido' then plainly 'yes'. Great book, still love it. Love Gandhi too, but haven't got the strength to follow him. And haven't got the faith to follow that kind of aiki spirit.

You could be talking about Morihei Ueshiba's philosophy before the war, just after the war, or later when he found the Omikyou Cult and aikido's relationship to farming (which I also love reading about and can part agree with) or later still when he (allegedly) started talking about ejaculating through shoji to improve the strength of your ki. But I would say the spirit of aikido lies with the people who practise aikido.

I used to believe in all that warrior stuff with reservation. That's one of the reasons I started MA. But now, I don't believe preservation of peaceful life can only be achieve through completely harmless techniques, which is the essence of the philosophy you are alluding to. Nor is this a means of achieving that peaceful state in the first place. Neither personally or for society.

It's a useful ideal, but not one I'm going to get stabbed over.

Essentially, like I guess most MAists who don't practise for sport, my philosophy is it would be nice to avoid violence altogether. But I've found from experience if you have to use your technique (and you've already gone too far and failed in your peaceful intentions), I want to make sure it works.

And aiki techniques work, but like any other MA, not in isolation, and that's where the set-up comes in. And I don't necessarily believe that a pain compliance hold (which isn't going to work unless you break something or swing someone into a wall/ the floor) will be any more peace- or life- preserving than a good hard, toe-capped boot kick in the shins...

[Mr Punch]

And if you're talking about a sports context...

truely, according to Ueshiba's later principles, aiki shouldn't be there, but if it is, you'd better be sure you're getting that set-up, otherwise EvolutionFist's summary of anti-aiki works quite well for many techs.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Mat
I don't necessarily believe that a pain compliance hold (which isn't going to work unless you break something or swing someone into a wall/ the floor)

I'll second that!!

[backbreaker]

I think the best thing about this KFM forum is the wide variety of practitioners of different styles.