When we meet for the first time

[Ernie]

Recently I have been meeting a lot of wing Chun people from different schools and I started wondering what is going on inside their minds.
Just yesterday, I showed up to do a little coaching and there was yet another new guy visiting from another school, and he was playing around with Gary. Immediately when I walked up some of they guys from my school mouthed off hey there’s ernie yea you need to try him out blah blah blah .
This already sucks obviously these guys have been hyping me up and want to see a show,
So I sit down and watch, they guy working with Gary is very good I admired his skill level and hey was really enjoying taking a ride on Gary airlines. Well the inevitable happened Gary calls me over to work out with him, I could tell he was amped up after having to deal with Gary [or any other skilled teacher, it’s like getting a does of caffeine]
Well we were introduced and he already heard all about been on the site and read some of the stuff I write about [wow look at me I’m famous =) j/k]

I could feel he was ready to go, and when I meet some for the first time I always make it a point to develop a repore first. I go very slow and just feed hands to get to know the other person, allow them to express there skill and become very comfortable with me.
As we worked out I was very impressed he hands were quick structure solid and good sensitivity [I get very happy when I meet a good wing chun person, it makes for a great work out and even more trading of information]

Well after they relaxed a little we started to have a dialogue while we trained and Gary walked up and asked to express some of the more ballistic stuff we do.
I told the guy not to worry I have no need to ‘’ show off anything ‘’. And his reply is what stuck in my head and caused me to post this. He said its o.k. Do what you have to do I know your teacher is watching and I was just worried I wouldn’t represent my teacher and school well.

This blew me away since I really don’t care what anyone thinks about what I do or how well I do it, I don’t care if my sifu is watching or there is a crowed, I am only concerned with working with the person in front of me.

Now I didn’t try to please my teacher or anyone, this I see to be disrespectful to the individual I’m working out with, things forced will then quickly escalate and in turn get emotional, at that point learning and training are out the window and ego and pride fill the air. I just don’t understand that way of thinking especially in a chi sau situation!
This is so far from a real fight it’s just silly.

Well in the end we trained all day shared skills and I felt made a new friendship.
Had I tried to please my teacher it could have easily gone the other way.

I’m just wondering what goes through your mind when ‘’ we meet for the first time ‘‘?

[PaulH]

I wasn't there but it takes two to tango. There is always a win and win possibility the first time when we meet.

Regards,
PH

[Ernie]

but what is your intent

see this person had did the research and probably had cetian expectaions , and a mental image , perhaps pressure of representing the school stuff like that

and it tripped my out since i don't think that way , i just meet people and go from there

that's why i asked what goes on in your mind when you visit a school or person for the first time

i don't care about people meeting me for the time it's more of a general question

trust me i have seen some ugly stuff back in the day were people got thrown into wooden dummys and gone to the ground kicking and just punching each other out

but i always that it was funny and silly

nothing good ever came out of it

just wondering if people still have that wild west mindset [ i'm going over to that school and wiping everyone out ]

does that still exist in this day and age


[ now this guy who inspired this question wasn't all crazy like that but when he expressed how he felt and what he was thinking it just made me wonder ]

[PaulH]

Well I'm more of window shopper when I visit different kwoons though if I like the wares I may buy a thing or two on the spot. =)
Of course it's always a pleasure to be treated with courtesy and respect from a gracious host...But not all teachers are good salesmen!

Regards,
PH

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Ernie,

I essentially take the same approach that you do. Usually I let the other guy dictate the level of intensity of the training. I usually don't "amp it up" on the other guy unless I know him/her very well and we have already established a mutual trust.

The thing about this is, even though I personally don't feel I have anything to prove, and I don't feel a need to show that my lineage is the best, I can't count on what the other guy is feeling. If even one person decides that he needs to "show" the other guy what his wing chun is made of, then it's very difficult to establish a platform for learning. The trick then is to turn it up to the level beyond which you're wasting your time being too polite and playing patty cake, but not turn it up to the level where the other guy, or even yourself, will make it personal. It's a fine balancing act. It's usually impossible to turn it back down once it gets personal, which is why I tend to start light and go up from there. If it gets to the point where I feel it's no longer productive, I thank the the other guy and cut it short.

That's not to say that you shouldn't ever turn it up on your training, but there's a time and place for everything. I agree that putting on the gear and going all out is essential if you realistically want to be able to defend yourself, but an initial friendly meeting is not the place to do it. I feel that you absolutely have to establish some level of rapport with the other guy before you get into that type of training, if for no other reason than to get good sense of how far you can go at what level of saftey.

Regards,
Alan

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Your friendly - I'm not here to show you up or hurt you approach - along with the nice, easy, not too fast, not too hard, feeding him some hands/punches in the beginning tactic is really GOOD...

unfortunately though, you are the exception - not the rule...when first meeting someone.

Keep it up - maybe it'll wear off on others.

[Ernie]

what's up alan

well since we have met under these conditions , and trained learned and laughed

i know we both have a similar approach , as well as everyone from your fam. i worked with [ pass on my hello's ]

of course there will always be a little bit of nervous energy but that can quickly become just pure fun .

the reality is we are all borhters and sisters trying to better ourselves and the only enemy we should have it the guy coming out of nowhere trying to take you out ......


but as a whole we should only focus on improvement , if your structure or root is better then mine then by all means show me and please correct me , if i see a way to help then i will always offer it .

infact i get happy when some one really has great skill , or i run into some one and they got alot better . because i know how important that is to me .

alan keep in touch bro :)


victor ,
unfortunately though, you are the exception - not the rule...when first meeting someone.


man that sucks , and can only work towards weakening wing chun as a whole

for example victor if i ever meet you [ and i hope i do ]
i would excpect nothing less then you tossing me all over th room and choking me out , but i would be smiling the whole time
because i know that it wouldn't be personal but just expressing to me what you have discovered .
i get the same vibe from phil and quite a few others

perhaps the moves would be different and ideas different but the spirit would be the same

oh well
time will be my teacher

:D

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Ernie, I know what you're talking about. People hear your name and want to try you. The thing about chi sau is that ANYONE can get tagged. I get tagged by my students so what. Too many times I've heard people say so and so is no good because I hit him in chi sau. I always laugh when I hear that. The same guy you hit during chi sau may kick your but in a real fight. Chi sau is a sensitivity drill nothing more. Lots of times chi sau ends up becoming a slap fest with no strategy or technique. Also, I have a good spirit. I don't try to hurt some one when training. But sometimes you can't be sure of the other guys intent. I fought in only 4 karate tournaments in my life and I saw what can happen if one guy is honorable and the other isn't. That's why I chose full contact. At least I know my opponent is trying to knock me out. Whereas in non-contact events you have to trust the other guy isn't going to go all out. Like you said Ernie, there has to be an understanding before you train with some one you don't know. We're either going to train like gentlemen or I'm going to "the next room" where anything goes. I look at it like this. I could fight before I learned WC. If I'm training with you in WC it's to use the art. If you come wrong then the street comes in and I don't want to go to jail for anybody. ;)

[Ernie]

very cool my man phil

and you made me look at myself and understand some thing about me

i have two sides there is the wing chun skill development side and the street fighter

those two sides do not cross , the balistic tools training , pad up and just rip on each other is miles away from a chi sau session
so i never cross the line
man i could pull a head butt knee elbow flow in a blink of an eye but it takes me a different place inside , were a life has no meaning

and i have seen what that stuff can do to another body and this mindset doesn't belong in a skill refnement training session

but i realize if you know what you have in your back pocket and your confident in it then you can just relax and have fun enjoy the game

but if all you have is chi sau to prove your point then it takes on the wrong meaning

and worse when you allow your energy to be dictated by an outside force people watching or your schools rep or worse your sifu watching

i have seen that happen alot 2 guys have a great session then gary will walk up and just watch then suddenly who ever is senior turns it up and just rips on the other dude

like proveing which dog sniffs whos butt first

what people don't understand is it is a bad habit to allow outside energy to control your output

it shouldn't matter if 1 person is watching or 100 you must reamin the same

[KenWingJitsu]

for example victor if i ever meet you [ and i hope i do ] i would excpect nothing less then you tossing me all over th room and choking me out , but i would be smiling the whole time

Victor, trust me....kid is speaking the truth ;) He smiles a lot!


The thing about chi sau is that ANYONE can get tagged. I get tagged by my students so what. Too many times I've heard people say so and so is no good because I hit him in chi sau.

Phil, guess what...this is why I hate the "wing chun culture". I have been known to refuse to 'play chi-sao' because of this very thing. It just serves no purpose, and heaven forbid I try to make it have a purpose.....lol. So i usually decline suck invitations. In fact, my sifu has had the same thing happen. 'oh i 'touched' him in chi-sao blah blah blah...(forgettign to mention that it was a fingertip lol). So he simply says, if you want, we can put on the gloves and you can try and touch me for real.....dont think anyone took up that offer ever. :D

In the end, it's all about training in the right CONTEXT. When you know what chi-sao is, you put it in the right context, and all that "other" pressure becomes non-existent.

I've never seen anyone do "good chi-sao" and I stnad in awe and go "ooooh he can fight". lol. I just go..."he is good at chi-sao".

/rambling

[Ernie]

dhira
Victor, trust me....kid is speaking the truth He smiles a lot!


ha ha man don't front i had you grinning to:D

man we got to train soon , next sunday might be open for me hope all is well and check your pm once in a while i sent you a message along time ago

[anerlich]

I usually prefer a massive preemptive smackdown to set up the proper intimidatory relationship for anyone presumptuous enough to test me. I pity the fool ...

No. I usually go out of my way to be friendly - this guy may know some stuff I don't and I don't want to miss out on any of that for ego.

With the chi sao thing, I agree with most here. You can do chi sao with someone, get a shot in, and then go away and boast about it on an internet forum.

I heard a story about Emin Boztepe dealing with a prospective chi sao'er at a seminar saying, "what's that going to prove? Let's just fight instead."

One of the good things about jiu-jitsu is that superiority is easily proved without the requirement for anyone to get hurt. It's easy to get tagged in chi sao and say "that strike had no power", but it's much more difficult to pretend you didn't get choked out. It breeds honesty and diminishes ego.

[Ernie]

anerlich
No. I usually go out of my way to be friendly - this guy may know some stuff I don't and I don't want to miss out on any of that for ego.


a very very good point

if your to busy trying to prove your point you missed the point in the first place :D

[KenWingJitsu]

"I heard a story about Emin Boztepe dealing with a prospective chi sao'er at a seminar saying, "what's that going to prove? Let's just fight instead."

lol. thats EXACTLY who I was talking about.

Ernie. For sure man. Sunday sounds ggod. Gotta check in with Hannibal Lecter (Andrew) lol. Catch me on my yahoo e-mail.

[canglong]

Ernie
When we meet for the first time we should sit down and put down a lil dim sum. :)

[Ernie]

tony
When we meet for the first time we should sit down and put down a lil dim sum.



that would be a good day:D

[AndrewS]

General thread reply-

Ernie- aside from our earlier conversation, here's what I'd add for the crowd- whatever you're doing, you are the only one responsible for the integrity of your skin and skeletal structure. If someone is getting happy and is creating risk past what you deem acceptable to those things, I view it as quite reasonable to do what is necessary to minimize that risk, a process which may sometimes involve incurring a certain risk to the other person's skin and skeletal structure. Sometimes a few words and the right attitude are all it takes, sometimes you can just control, sometimes basic animal hardwiring requires that you assert a dominace hierarchy, and sometimes you need to make it so the other person can't be a problem for a while.

Choosing between these options should be a conscious an mature decision, not adolescent bs.

Of course the most fun is when some guy is trying really hard to get over on you, taking wild shots looking for blood, and you're giggling bouncing them around, barely caring how amped they are. . .

Oh yeah- one practical thing- comparing a little single arm chi sao and holding a pad for each other to compare punching methods is a very nice way to get a quick take on someone's skills and character, and be ready to defuse some potential silliness.

Dhira, Ernie,

I'm on call Sunday- Saturday afternoon is open, though.

Andrew

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Ernie
I’m just wondering what goes through your mind when ‘’ we meet for the first time ‘‘? Like the guy visiting your school, going through my mind would be every intention not do anything that would embarrass my sifu. People are judged by their associations. That doesn't mean that I would engage in a fight to prove that my sifu kicks ass - just the opposite. The more difficult thing to do is not engage - and if one does, to make sure it doesn't get out of hand from his side. It seems that guy was calling it as it usually is - people needing to prove themselves in front of their sifus.

[Ernie]

keng
- people needing to prove themselves in front of their sifus.

man that's just to bad , my sifu/coach can't make me do anything . i mean i make my own choices and if he has asked me in the past to express things on people in a more energtic nature and i do what i want to do regardless

he has even got a little upset with me cause he knows what i can do but as he puts it '' i'm to playful''

in the end i only represent myself and i don't know man i have been taught ot really respect my training partner this stems before wing chun

these are not toys we are playing with , they can cause real damage

one of my early teachers had his acl torn in a out of control chi sau session and had to have surgery , never to return to martial arts again

that image is in my mind and i would never chance that to just make my sifu happy

the reality if a person has skill you can tell as soon as you play with them you don't need to take it to a extreme level

for what

and in chi sau my god it just chi sau .

i would rather let a guy get a few shots in on my and blow his load and calm down then to just zap him to prove a point

but then again as i said i have no devotion or underlined agendas when i play , it's only a silly little game :D

keng thanks for your reply