Who are the southern mantis people

[guy incognito]

Hi I'm new here and just wanted to find out who does southern praying mantis as well.

[Jook Lum]

Hello! What branch of spm do you study and under who?

Thanks

[guy incognito]

Dong gong chow gar tong long under sigung Henry Sue

[Jook Lum]

Hello again! Good to see more spm people on here. I study Kwong Sai
Jook Lum Tong Long Pai under Gin Foon Mark and others.

I dont know to much about Henry Sue`s chow Gar other than what has been said on the net, which is mixed. How is your studying going? Is
there many differences between Henry Sue`s chow gar and the Chow gar
being taught by Ip Chee or Paul Whitrod?

[guy incognito]

I think paul whitrods the same Im not sure.Sarm bo jin is our first form which is what im leaning now.We train Tai Chi also to supplement the tong long.

[mantis-1]

I dont know the sues tong long but I dont see why you would need to suppliment the tong long with Tai Chi. what is lacking within Chow gar that you find within Tai Chi?

[guy incognito]

Ah you misunderstand me.There is nothing lacking from tong long.Complement would have been a better word.It gives you a good base by improving your balance.

[jo]

BALANCE IS EVERYTHING.

No matter HOW you get it, maintain it, use it, and understand it is GOOD.

Whatever works, Guy.

-jo

[mantis-1]

ahh ok but I fail to see why Chow Gar tong long would not teach you the same principles.... I ask this as I used to train another southern mantis style which was complimented by Tai Chi and after four years of training in it. I fail to see what it brought to the system that wasnt already there.

[guy incognito]

I can see your point of view but it brings a whole yin/yang thing into it.The speed and power of tong long is balanced by the softness and beauty of the tai chi.Not that tong long doesnt stand up on its own merits.Plus i think tai chi is cool!

[Lost Oath]

Well.. Tai Chi is cool.
You can't argue with that. ;)

[David]

Chow Gar under Bill Spraggs/Rob Dawkins (under Paul Whitrod) in UK.

Just restarted Yang taichi, too. And Yoga :).

I love taichi's slow and careful examination of balance etc. Those methods translate well into any style, not least spm.

Rgds,
David

[guy incognito]

Whats the difference between chow gar and jok lum,7 star and 8 step mantis.anybody know?Still sore from last nights training but it was fun.Sarm bo jin(Three step arrow) is our first form what are the names of your forms?

[jo]

Originally posted by mantis-1
ahh ok but I fail to see why Chow Gar tong long would not teach you the same principles.... I ask this as I used to train another southern mantis style which was complimented by Tai Chi and after four years of training in it. I fail to see what it brought to the system that wasnt already there.

Not everyone sees the connection between hard and soft in Chow Gar.

When starting out, most people only practice "the hard" as the power generation is intoxicating.

When they learn that the power increases with smoothness and fluidity (softness), the light bulb over the head turns on.

Your bulb turned on sooner then most! ;-)

-jo

[5thBrother]

hey..

briefly

qi xing (7 star) and ba bu (8 steps) are NORTHERN Praying mantis styles (unrelated to sountern mantis)

chow gar and jook lum are SOUTHERN Praying Mantis ..

check out the Southern Praying Mantis Forums community at:

http://b2.ezboard.com/bsouthernprayingmantiskungfu

or

http://tonglongforums.cjb.net


Henry Sue (Siu) 's Chow Gar has branched off from then main line (for lack of better word) chow gar of Master ip shui. And it cannot be said to be "the same" as paul brennan, paul whitrod etc who following in the chow gar ip shui ....

Malcolm Sue branched off completely founding is own style ging mo kune

the Sue-Tin Brothers bracned off comepletely combining thier tai chi training with their tong long to found hok se tong long and lin wan sam sao styles

check out da tonglongforums for more info

:)

[guy incognito]

So what do you think of shaolin inviting him to bring the art back to the temple and being recognised by them as custodian of the art?

[5thBrother]

well i dont know anything about the last few years attachment of + shaolin wushu to name of chow gar tong long regarding Teacher henry sue's school.

making a trip / being invited to shoalin temple is nice and many schools do it. His older brother, Teacher Malcolm did this quite some years ago and i think does it yearly still.

now for the tricky part :(

briefly,

i think u may have the custodian thing mixed up.
first naturally henan shaolin have no authority or right to make any such thing.
Master ip shui does.
im guessing ur thinking of when Teacher henry sue was given the custodianship by Master ip shui in the early 90s (approx)
move along quite some years and Master ip shui revoked the custodianship and Teacher henry sue is no the official representative anymore for Master ip sui chow gar tong long pai.
Teacher henry sue has developed his own method of chow gar tong long.
the current aust. representative for Master ip shui is Teacher Paul Brennan.
there are also other non-"main line" (for lack better word) groups of chow gar tong long students deriving from the chow gar pioneers in australia as well. and new styles developed eg. ho se tong long.

that is the current fact, so naturally this can get a little uneasy, with some politics etc...

so back onto track with nam tong long!:

how are u finding your training? enjoying it?
chi sao is a killer hey! :P

Peace

[guy incognito]

Yes Ive not encontered this aspect of training yet(Im at a basic level)Tong long is great ive not done any art as effective in the past.Regardless of whos brand you do I dont think the essence of it is lost like what has happened to Wing Chun.Pok sou jongs are my among my favorites but for me its the heun jarn jong love it!

[yuanfen]

Quote:Regardless of whos brand you do I dont think the essence of it is lost like what has happened to Wing Chun.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

A different view. All depends on who one learns from and how well they learn it and can apply it....both in southern mantis and wing chun. The mantis world is just smaller and quieter.

[guy incognito]

When I gar sou I cant get the opponents arm accross their body far enough and i always end up on the out side.Any tips?

[fiercest tiger]

Doesnt SPM have chi kung? 18 Swiming dragons?

FT

[jo]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Doesnt SPM have chi kung? 18 Swiming dragons?

FT


All SPM, indeed, most (some would say all), CMA's have Chi Gung.

18 Swimming Dragons is peticular in name to the Chow Gar branch of SPM, it is sometimes taught as two solo forms and a corresponding two-man form.

The Jook Lum of Lum Wing Fay has a form called 18 Points. And it too, is taught as solo and two-man forms,

Both forms invoke a sense of smoothness and flow into the training and while the motions of Chow Gar and Lum's Jook Lum are similar, the way power manifests itself is different in each system.

-jo

[Jook Lum]

guyincognito,would you describe Gar Sou in more detail? Because some
terminology is different between Jook Lum and Chow gar. Like instead
of Sou(sao) we use Shu and a technique may have a similar term, but sometimes not.
Thanks

[5thBrother]

When I gar sou I cant get the opponents arm accross their body far enough and i always end up on the out side. Any tips?

STANCE! :) grip, sink and root ur stance get power from ur legs. lat muscles, ribs muscles, shoulders. and INTENT

and the correct LINE/ANGLE of the technique which ur sifu will help u with..

i guess not much help.. :P
but STANCE might be helpful..

u mean like right gar sao to ur partners right gar sao right?

what pok sao jongs and hun jarn jongs do u do atm if u would like to discribe them?


jook lum:

gar sao in chow gar is an upward and outward motion backfist kinda of motion ... if that makes sense :/ this is NOT really it but: think your partner does a left punch or hook and u right fist his inside arm or block with the forearm part.

someone else can explain better im sure.


take care all spm peoples :)

Juts tarin hard and enjoy~

mo lum yut ga! - martial art is 1 family!

[guy incognito]

what pok sao jongs and hun jarn jongs do u do atm if u would like to discribe them?

Well Pok sou jongs ive learnt are: Pok,gar ,bill
:pok,grab arm,pei sou
Gar sou jongs:Gar,pok,pei
:gar,pei low.pei to head
:gar,grab,pok,control,gar choy
Heun jarn is only one so far thats:pok,gar,elbow,pei sou

Gar sou is a phoenix eye fist that goes out like a punch and a back hand.
fong sou is a wiping/catching motion with an open palm.
Gar choy is drop fist or downwards hammer fist any more questions I cant think at the moment.Ten past twelve and been workin all day.AAAHHH!

[guy incognito]

Here this might help! Sifu says its better to show you then tell you so here goes

[guy incognito]

And this.

[guy incognito]

More here.

[guy incognito]

And the hits keep commin!

[guy incognito]

And another!

[guy incognito]

And last of all.

[5thBrother]

Woo

nice pics thanks! that should help with cross terminology with other mantis.

what ur calling gar choy is usually called gau / Gow choy.

goood to see sharing of info.


jook lum: now that u see some pics can u tell us what the terms are for these techniques in jook lum terminology?

thanks~

[Jook Lum]

Hello guy incognito and 5th Brother and thanks for putting up the
pics, it is good to talk to you guys.

Your gar sou looks like what we usually call a circle skim hand
which circles at the wrist and the the arm follows leading
into a strike .

Your pei sou is similar to ours we call it pai shu.

Ginger fist is the same.

I will look at the other pics and post on them also.

[Jook Lum]

Hello again! i will write some of our terms and see if any of them
are familiar or similar to any of you.

Ma Shu(Moy Shu)- Can be a circular,sliding,slightly hooking or
short,quick snapping/deflecting block when applied with power.

Choc Shu(Tak or Fun Shu)-Slight hooking block with hand palm up
and hooking with slight bend in wrist or outside of hand(thumb side),
can also be used to deflect strikes with the turning of the forearm.

Gao(Gow)Shu-A strike which is done by rotating the elbow so the
forearm and hand can strike in four directions or any combination of
the four.

Gop Shu- Trapping forearm(s)

Lao Shu-A lower block/strike with a turning of the arm or rotation of
the elbow.

Pai Shu- Chopping hand/arm combination.

Fic Shu- Flick hand block/strike.

Long arm Hon(Han)Shu-Deflecting block/strike done by extending the
arm (turning hand to palm down).

To be continued. If you have any questions about these let me know.

[guy incognito]

Lao Shu-A lower block/strike with a turning of the arm or rotation of
the elbow


Sounds like what we call charp sou.
Not sure on spelling of gar choy yours sounds better.
More photos of the jongs to come.

[5thBrother]

hey guys!!

i'll see if i can co-relate some of the jook lum and chow gar hands later and see if i can post some pics and some pics from other sources like i just realised i have scan of an technique demo by teacher malcolm sue or his son showing gar sao, pek sao, pay sao etc and some article of teacher paul whitrod etc ...

just gotta find then and see if i can take some photos.

your pai shu is our pay sao i think (side cutting hand - a horizontal or diagonal downwards outwards hammerfist to say neck or jaw)

will be good to know what u jook lum guys are describing :D sometimes its same name but TOTALLY different techniques etc keke

oh and ur choc shu is same i think choc sao

shall check da rest and add later..

:)

[Jook Lum]

Hello! Lao shu is also called or means leak hand if this helps clarify it a little more.

5th brother you are correct your Pay Sao is the same as our Pai shu,
some of our terms i am not sure about the exact spelling either and some we use the Chinese terms and some we use English terms like saw
hand and sometimes we just call Gwa Shu (Wa Shu)a low hook hand or
call Choc Shu a waiter block, because it looks like a waiter carrying
a pizza pan.

Hopefully we can eventually get into some discussions about different
training exercises and short forms and techniques between the spm branches.

[guy incognito]

Im going to post some pics of our jong and strenghtening exercises soon if anyone interested?

[Jook Lum]

I am interested and look forward to seeing them.

Thanks

[guy incognito]

Coolies.B
But don't hold your breath it will take a few weeks.

[5thBrother]

look forward to seeing ur jongs too.

really busy atm i'll try to post some sequences or artocle from old magazines of paul whitrod and malcolm sue on the weekend

or maybe on the Southern Mantis Forum and link it as that forums can see pics and no need to download..

if not early next week.

jook:

do u have doi jong in jook lum: i'll post pics as per above but basic one is

A. seung biu sao (double pheonix punch) - (i THINK u jook lum may call it jet choi ?? hozizontal pheonix fist punches)
B. "blocks" with double gar sao to inside arms
A. cuts down arround and in with dau sao (kinda think double inward hammer fists ending palms up and trapping B's arms between them - changed form to ginger fist)
B. pull arm apart to seperate A's arms with double die sao like motion then *hard to explain but like double palm strike to body
A. sticks and "parry" with double narp sao or saw sao..

repeat.. its a VITAL drill for chow gar tong long

take care guys!

TONG LONG PAI!

[guy incognito]

B. pull arm apart to seperate A's arms with double die sao like motion then *hard to explain but like double palm strike to body[QUOTE]


Sounds like jong fook.

[Jook Lum]

Here is a basic one and as with everything it is added to and always evolving.

A.Perform a mid to low double punch at B`s stomach.
B.Perform a double Choc Shu block to the inside of A`s arms and
follow with double phoenix eye punches to A`s stomach.

A.Perform a double Gop Shu (trapping forearms) block and follow with
a double strike to B`s face,chest or points on inside shoulders.

B.Perform a double Hon Shu block at about shoulder level or slightly above with simultaneous finger flick to A`s face(or throat).

A.Perform a double downward block (cutting or chopping hand)and follow in for double strike at stomach level.

B.Perform a double Cye Shu block slightly towards leftside,right hand
is palm up and left hand is palm down. Also left hand is kind of hooking/deflecting A`s right arm inside at wrist and right hand(arm) is slicing/deflecting to outside and a little bit under A`s forearm,
then from Cye Shu block both hands turn over (circle) onto the top
of A`s arms ending in a double Bao Shu position with strike.

From here it begins again switching sides. This is also done on right and left sides and with one or two hands.

[guy incognito]

Originally posted by Jook Lum
Here is a basic one and as with everything it is added to and always evolving.

A.Perform a mid to low double punch at B`s stomach.
B.Perform a double Choc Shu block to the inside of A`s arms and
follow with double phoenix eye punches to A`s stomach.

A.Perform a double Gop Shu (trapping forearms) block and follow with
a double strike to B`s face,chest or points on inside shoulders.

B.Perform a double Hon Shu block at about shoulder level or slightly above with simultaneous finger flick to A`s face(or throat).

A.Perform a double downward block (cutting or chopping hand)and follow in for double strike at stomach level.

B.Perform a double Cye Shu block slightly towards leftside,right hand
is palm up and left hand is palm down. Also left hand is kind of hooking/deflecting A`s right arm inside at wrist and right hand(arm) is slicing/deflecting to outside and a little bit under A`s forearm,
then from Cye Shu block both hands turn over (circle) onto the top
of A`s arms ending in a double Bao Shu position with strike.

From here it begins again switching sides. This is also done on right and left sides and with one or two hands. Are these strength training exercises or jongs?

[Jook Lum]

Actually it is both depending on the breakdown. In the beginning it
is short hand form or exercise, but in time when you start to figure
things out you see it is a small but ingenious formula which has many
levels.This is typical of all the forms and exercises.

Simple but not easy!

[guy incognito]

Originally posted by Jook Lum
Actually it is both depending on the breakdown. In the beginning it
is short hand form or exercise, but in time when you start to figure
things out you see it is a small but ingenious formula which has many
levels.This is typical of all the forms and exercises.

Simple but not easy!

Tell me about it. 30 seconds and you want to stop!

[5thBrother]

ttt~

been snowed under at the moment. hope to post something more porductive and those scans later in the week.

for now to the top~ incase some one has something.

any OLD skool CHor Gar students of Malcolm Sue liek to share about how and what the training was /is like back then? the chow gar days NOT ging mo kune.

also any info on what, how and why master nat. yuen changed his chow gar method and how it was etc?

anyone out there actucally trained under master nat yuen back in 60s!!?

thanks

5thbro

[fidon]

Heh, i haven't been on these forums for ages...so Guy who's the Sifu that teaches at the CKFA's Townsville school?

Also i think Sifu Henry Sue incorporated Tai Chi circular movements into the Chow gar tong long to make all the movements flow better and has 'circles' involved, kinda like what tai chi has.

[Jook Lum]

Hello fidon and welcome back to the forum! I dont know who the teacher is teaching in a Henry Poo Yee school in Townsville.Have
you visited it and if so what is your opinion?

Do you study spm and if so what branch?

[Chin Chung Cao]

Hello Jook Lum, I think Fidon is asking about one of Henry Sue's school's that also use the name Chinese Kung Fu Academy. Poo Yee has no branch school's in Australia that I know of.

[Jook Lum]

Thank you for the clarification.

[guy incognito]

Originally posted by fidon
Heh, i haven't been on these forums for ages...so Guy who's the Sifu that teaches at the CKFA's Townsville school?

Also i think Sifu Henry Sue incorporated Tai Chi circular movements into the Chow gar tong long to make all the movements flow better and has 'circles' involved, kinda like what tai chi has.


Short answer Sifu Ben Sue.

[5thBrother]

I think it's quite interesting (and also a valuable learning experience)to study the differences in style that Dr Nat Yuen introduced. For instance, he appears to have made changes to the forms aimed at making them more practical, and more aggressive in terms of striking at the opponent's head. This is evident in Bo Sim Sau. The forms as taught by other masters appear a little less practical, but emphasise the value of vital point strikes. In fact, when it comes to Bo Sim Sau, judging from the way its presented in Paul Whitrod's new book, they are really two different forms. Nat Yuen's follows a three step formula, with the Bo Sim Sau's principle target being the head, whereas Whitrod's version would seem to be much longer with 18 sections and an emphasis on striking/grabbing the arms. To be honest, looking at the limited number of pictures presented, I wouldn't even recognise it as the same form. Other forms coming down from Nat Yuen are very similar though.

I wonder what others thoughts are on those issues?


someone elses quote.. im equally interest in such things and early oz chow gar days.. sue brothers and sue-tin brothers etc

[5thBrother]

I've heard that Nat Yuen did tai Chi, and that this influenced the way he taught Tong Long. Personally, I'm not sure about this. Malcolm and Henry certainly did Tai Chi, and that has influenced their Tong Long to some degree, but as far as I can tell they never learned it from Nat Yuen, which would have been natural if he knew it himself. I have been thinking lately that any changes in the way we do things in Australia were brought about by Malcolm and Henry and that Nat Yuen taught the style closely to what he learned from Yip Shui. I also think that since Nat Yuen came to Australia in the late 1950's, they have added forms since the original half dozen or so that were taught by Lau Soi.





The usage of pock sau and yeun sau in those drills are designed to develop your palming-off skills, and also (See-lik)test/try power of the opponent's strikes.
Overall these drills develop your body movements, entry and exiting footwork, timing, conditioning, reflexes and the most important bik kiu (force bridge skill) onto the opponent's bridge.
Once you've mastered these drills, it's very hard for anyone to strike at your body or your bridge for that matter. In fact, once you've palm off their destructive strikes with yin powder, your muscle memory will kick-in immedately to deliver deadly pak, pai, pok, gow chui in flowing sequences.
Frankly speaking, it's too bloody dangerous to teach these drills to anyone that has an evil mind, that's why I still kept them close to my chest.

[5thBrother]

tong long!! :)

[travelsbyknight]

I have a couple of questions for you since you study with Gin Foon Mark.

1. What is your opinion on his six sounds chi gung? Personally, I like it because it's a hell of a lot easier than the yit gung ging taught at my school and it takes A LOT less time. But I've heard that "Six sounds chi gung" is nothing special. What's your take on it?

2. Why didn't Gin Foon Mark put out anymore tapes on Kwong Sai Jook Lum Southern Mantis? In a few of his tapes it is mentioned that more advanced videos are coming. In his chi gung book it said he's writing a comprehensive book on Southern Mantis. ALL OF THIS WAS SAID YEARS AGO! The dude isn't getting any younger. Does he plan on pulling a Tupac Shakur and having everything released AFTER his passing?


I'm being really serious here. Please answer genuinely.

[Jook Lum]

Hello travelsbyknight,


Thanks for the questions, my opinion on the six healing sounds chi gung is that it is a well rounded form of breathing exercises that are as good as any others out there which is not saying it is the best or worst but that it is a form of chi gung that produces results and as you mentioned it`s beauty lies in it`s simplicity.

I think it is good because the transition from one set of movements to the next
blends smoothly with the breathing and when the breathing and movements are
memorized the full set can be done right through the sequence in a short amount of time or longer amount of time which is left up to the practitioner so it is flexible and well suited for those with limited time.
In my opinion the easiest way for this form of chi gung to be learned is to first memorize the movements and then add the breath to them.
What is your opinion on the progress and results you have gained or found lacking in your six sounds practice?

Sadly in my opinion, I dont think his book will ever come to pass. I think there would be a big demand for it though. I dont know why he never put out more videos. What was your opinion of the older videos?And which have you seen?

[kismet]

I've never seen his video's, would like to get hold of them if possible. Whats the best way? Are they available to buy? Can i swap videos with someone that has them?

Thanks

[Jook Lum]

Hello kismet,

One way is to go to http://www.masterginfoonmark.com and go to the books and video section and you can order them through there. I think you may be able to find some people on various forums who might be willing to trade videos with you also.

I will PM you also.