Wah Lum, Pong Lai, Politics, HuaLinLaoShr

[woliveri]

I really hate to bring this up but the story irk'd me I just had to get it off my chest and perhaps verify the validity of the story.

I just got back from a trip to Florida and saw one of my old Wah Lum friends and they brought me up to date on the latest.

Perhaps the Pong Lai group can verify this story and correct any facts I have presented.

I was told that in an upcoming tournament organized by Pong Lai an old Wah Lum student who frequents this board and who is no longer in the good graces was invited to be a judge at this tournament. When Wah Lum central caught wind of this they (Wah Lum) told Pong Lai that if this individual was to be a judge they would not allow any students to participate in this tournament.

This sounds exactly like Wah Lum of the past so I had no reason to doubt it. Please correct me if I am wrong.


On another note, I also heard HuaLinLaoShr was on the edge of his affiliation due to closing his school in Kissimmee. Is this true HuaLin?

[yu shan]

Hi Woli,

All in all, hopefully you had a good visit to the Sunshine State. Are you and Tai Chi Bob friends? You guyz are in that era?

To be honest, the Pong Lai group is trying our best to get along with the Temple. (Shifu John Scolaro personally visited) Things got out of hand a year ago or so, when a poster from a WL school in Tampa started something and then got candy-a s s about it. Granted, Chan Pui does seem to have a problem with Shr ZhengZhong. This seems to go back to Taiwan. My observation about Chan Pui/Wah Lum... anytime he is questioned about the Mantis in WL, or the fighting aspects of Mantis. You are always told to figure it out on your own, or he just gets defensive and mad!

18-Elder`s will have a story (unfortunately) about the tournament situation. Woli, this is not going to be pretty.

Many things can be said here about the support system WL claims to have for their schools. It is sad when a school in distress does not get ANY financial or personal support.

HuaLinLaoshi is a very good Shifu, I wish him the best.

[woliveri]

Hey Yu Shan,

As I said I really hate to bring this here but I wanted to clarify the "rumor" and since you identified the said judge it must be a fact (I didn't hear it from him). It struck me as being so ridiculously petty but in-line with previous WL history I felt I had to bring it out. This is the strong arm politics we've all been talking about in the past and others interested in WL should know about it.

I didn't see TCB when I was in Florida, darn it!!! I spent most of my time visiting with my mother in another part of the state. I'm of the era starting at 1984 and being in and for the next years or so so that incompasses older and newer "old" students.

I also wanted to get over to the Pong Lai school for a visit but got caught up going Jeepin on some day and night runs. Go Figure but it was beautiful.

I also hope HLLS and TCB the best!!

[18elders]

Woliveri,

It was not that way, it was a tournament put on by someone else(not ponglai), and he was told by MC if pong lai competed or judged then wah lum would not support the tournament.
Of course it is all about the money so we were asked not to come.
I guess the learn kindness and fellowship characters must have fallen of their altar.

That really sucks for other competitors because i think it is always good to have other judges that know the wah lum forms and are not a part of wah lum instead of having 3 out of the 4 judges current wah lum people.
For instance, at a tournemnt we judged the northern mantis division, a wah lum student came out and did 18 elbows. We(the judges) had a discussion on it and stated that it is not a mantis form. Tu (from the temple) even agreed it was not a mantis form (he was one of the judges)


But the great news now is that they(wah lum and the promoter) formed a florida kung fu association and of course pong lai is not a member.

Yu shan has a pong lai website up now:
www.ponglai.com

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Heck, here goes.. I was told by a current student at the Wah Lum Temple that Ms. Chan (Suzy) was telling students that she would see that i would not be allowed to officiate at the upcoming tournament.. in an effort to neutralize any concerns of the promoter, i e-mailed him and wished him the best for his Tournament and suggested he use his best judgment in this matter and consider the overall success of his efforts as opposed to creating issues.. i, and my school, offered to assist in whatever manner we could without conflicting with his financial interest in this event.. His reply was "i think you understand my situation in this matter", "thanks for your understanding".. i was not formally invited to officiate, though i did officiate last year.. (notably, no Wah Lum Taiji competitors showed up)..

If there was a problem with my officiating, i would benefit from dialogue that could help me do better, not banishment.. If there are personal issues due to the situations surrounding my departure from Wah Lum, that is where it should remain.. between me and Wah Lum (whoever runs that show now).. to intervene in the affairs of another school's promoting of an "open" event due to issues not of their concern is shameful.. i am not concerned with "officiating", but am concerned with the image it projects.. the negative image of me and my school.. the petty image it portrays of CMA.. the sad image of once powerful and respected system, now in decline due to poor leadership..

There were problems with both sides of the issues surrounding my departure from Wah Lum.. but, never was there any disrespect or dishonesty on my part, at least no disrespect until i was dismissed.. True, i did not shift my allegiance from Chan Pui to Ms. Suzy, even at his request.. but, i would rather be dismissed respecting myself, than to misplace it for the sake of appearance..

As for officiating, anyone that knows me knows that there is not even a chance that i would consider someone's school as a factor in judging.. If i was not qualified to judge in the eyes of the Temple, why was i chief ring judge at Chan Pui's Tournament 2000.. No, the issue is personal and has no place being used as a tool of vengence, especially in the affairs of those not even involved.. I have great respect for the Promoter of the upcoming Tournament, and wish him well.. i do not wish this to become a devisive issue, we should all let it go..

I would welcome a direct dialogue with Chan Pui, Suzy and myself, just to clear the air.. the situations surrounding my dismissal were based on incorrect and incomplete information leading to Suzy's opinion that i had acted disrespectfully and contrary to school policy.. that was not so, and.. i offered then, and still offer to be interrogated by an independent ploygraph examiner.. i only want to clear my name and reputation as it is presented by the leadership at Wah Lum.. then we can all move on with an accurate accounting of the actual events, not the contrived conspiracy that was used to eliminate someone that posed a threat to the "new regime"..

I have the highest respect for Chan Pui's accomplishments and Martial abilities, he was a good teacher and a friend.. i miss that relationship a lot.. but, Ms. Suzy made it clear that i was not welcome under her leadership and Chan Pui could only go along to preserve his personal life..

There.... now, i hope this is the end of this .. except that i hope the leadership at Wah Lum is willing to look to beneficial alliances rather than petty vengences.. i hope that they will meet on common ground and put an end to this nonsense.. we can all benefit from working together or all suffer from power struggles.. Most of all i wish to extend a hand of healing to all my Kung Fu brothers and sisters.. and let the light of turth and our common purpose to promote CMA put this behind us...

Be well...

[woliveri]

Thanks guys for the clarification. Sorry to bring this to the board but people do need to know the truth about the WL strong arm tactics.

Yu Shan, Excellent site!!! Keep up the great work. Love the pics!!


Wish you guys the best (Pong Lai and TCB)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
Thanks for associating my name with a controversial topic that I have no part in and no control over. :)

Yes, I had to close my school due to financial difficulties but that hasn't put me on the fringe (unless you know something I don't).

The truth is I've been on the fringe since Richard Allen left as head instructor. That's why I'm not very well known or seen around WL. The only thing that's changed since closing my school is that I no longer have a place to train.

[woliveri]

HuaLin,

When I was in Kissimmee I called the temple to get your location so I could stop by and say hi. Unfortunately you do not have your school so I could not.

Sorry about including your name in the post but glad it was cleared up. It's really not about you, it's about the organization as we know it.

I didn't know you had Richard Allen at your school!!! Is he still living in Florida? Last I heard he was in South Carolina or there abouts.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Richard wasn't at my school. He was the head instructor at the Temple when I started. I got along real well with him. We both have a Kenpo background and he helped me a lot. After he left I became just another face in the crowd until I worked my way through the curriculum and they realized I was still there.

Right now I have to dig myself out of the debt I ran up with the school. I try to stay in touch with the MA community when I can.

Most likely I'll offer to judge at this event but I didn't get a reply last year when I offered so I just went and watched. Guess he thought I was an outsider like you guys. Ha! :D

I'm seriously thinking of getting back into Yoga when I get working again. Less controversy and a very good workout. All I have to do is figure out the applications for the poses. :D

[woliveri]

I've been talking to a Qi Gong buddy of mine lately and he's seeing a lot of similar breathing techniques between Yoga and Qi Gong. Sounds like a good thing to get into.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings... i offered then, and still offer to be interrogated by an independent ploygraph examiner..


Pardon me for butting in but... a polygraph? Good grief. I think life is too short for this kind of distraction.

Best regards,
UM.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Accusations were made that weren't true.. this has impacted friends that i have had at the Temple.. the students at the Temple have been warned of negative consequences for even communicating with me.. My desire is to set the record straight and move on..

Sure, i could just walk away and know my own truth, but.. as has been pointed out to me, that leaves truth distorted in the eyes of others.. and empowers the leadership of Wah Lum to continue being the bully that persecutes former students and instructors.. and, if the "whole" truth be known, the repercussions would echo far beyond Wah Lum.. This is just one example of many where the leadership of Wah Lum has damaged the reputations of otherwise decent and dedicated students/instructors.. this is not to say that some former Temple dwellers didn't screw-up, only that the accusations made about me by Suzy were wrong or at best misinformed..


I think life is too short for this kind of distraction.

Indeed, life is too short to spend it wondering when the next intervention by Wah Lum will occur.. The accusations made by Wah Lum calls into question my character, and as a Martial Artist i am willing to defend my character.. and the weapon of choice is "truth"..

Be well..

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

TaiChiBob
I guess I missed that warning. Remind me not to communicate with you the next time we, ah, communicate. :D

woliveri
I've used Yoga breathing with Qigong and Taiji due to the similarities plus Yoga came before Qigong and Taiji in my life. It's hard to break old habits, especially when they work for you.

Umm. Oh yeah, praying mantis.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings... Indeed, life is too short to spend it wondering when the next intervention by Wah Lum will occur.. The accusations made by Wah Lum calls into question my character, and as a Martial Artist i am willing to defend my character.. and the weapon of choice is "truth"..

Be well..

TaiChiBob,

I apologize for my impatience. From your posts I gather you are a highly dedicated martial artist and a person of character. From my chair it seemed unnatural that you would/should have to go to such extremes to make your point with these individuals.

I wish you the best in dealing with any injustice that you have been dealt.

Best regards,
UM.

[isol8d]

Umm. Oh yeah, praying mantis.

Praying Mantis Yoga?

Promote it with David Carridine on DVD, and you'll have your school back up in no time.....

:D :D :D :D :D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Sheer genius!!!! :D

Be well...

[brassmonkey]

I don't know why anyone would stay or continue with Wah Lum after the daughter's interview a few years back I read. She said to the affect she was getting all these high level forms from her dad that noone else outside her family would get because it was tradition. Yet her dad learned them from someone that wasnt in his family, so I didnt quite get her argument.

Why study a ma you'll never get the best material of since your a non family member?

[mantiskilla]

i did not read that article, but it makes sense to me that a certain amount of information would be kept in the "family". however, that being said, i really dont think that anybody is going to miss much. :rolleyes:
________
Theea (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Theea/)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Maybe i don't have the cultural background to understand this mentallity, but.. i would think that it's the survival of the Art that's important.. so much of historical importance has passed into obscurity because of this whole secret/family thing.. The Temple's Kung Fu is so obviously discriminated in favor of Asians that it makes little sense for a caucasian to invest so much to be denied a fair shake.. Now, that being said, MC was more than generous with me, personally, in sharing his internal knowledge..

I must be fair in this particular situation.. Master Chan was very good to me, patient with my antics ( i am more of a goof-ball than you might suspect), patient with my stressing-out over the lessons, and always able to find that extra little bit i didn't even know i had.. it was not until Simo Suzy decided she wanted to run the Taiji program that things began to deteriorate..

As for Mimi, there is some of the highest potential i have ever seen.. if she can blend wisdom, skill and compassion.. and overcome Simo's influence, Wah Lum could someday have another real GrandMaster.. but, only time will tell..

The Temple was home to me for more than a decade.. to be publically dismissed for reasons that had no basis in reality was more painful than i can explain..to have my personal connection to MC destroyed and my friends alienated by threats of "negative consequences".. should have been satisfaction enough for the parties that perceived an "injustice" (still, i believe it was due to my refusal to switch allegiances from MC to Simo).. but, to intervene in matters of someone else's, in their business affairs.. to seek satisfaction in a personal/school issue is dishonorable.. and, i for one, believe CMA has an obligation to to uphold high community and social standards.. to produce Martial Ethics as well as Martial Artists.. otherwise, we simply add to the pool of violence by raising the standard of violent skills..

Cripe, i can't seem to stay on topic.. sorry .. Be well...

[tanglang69]

This is my first post. Don't have much time right now for a lengthy one. I am glad to see that our disgruntled Wah lum community is not afraid to speak there mind. I started Wah lum back in 1985 under Pablo J. Zamora here in McAllen, Texas. We parted ways with the temple in the early 90's for several reasons. Master Chan was always a cheerful man when he would come to visit us. Since he was far from the stress of home. I work with the Department of Homeland Security and teach martial arts classes in the evenings. I have to go now, but I'll post more stuff later. Like I said, I'm glad to be onboard.

Sincerely,

tanglang69

P.S.

I checked out the Pong Lai website. This looks very interesting. Will make contact with them later.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

What is the value of an ounce of gold buried in your backyard?








The answer is 0. It only has value when you spend it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Geeeze Dave.. that was good!! Tao Te Dave.. i like it.. :)

Be well..

[flem]

tcbob,

since YOU went off the subject, i'd like to ask what besides marriage gives mrs. chan the right to oversee the tai chi program?

it's all really amusing. and believe me, as time passes, you'll also be able to laugh. i have been where you are now, and i'm telling you, it gets funny...

[Joe Mantis]

Flem,

a dysfunctional family is not something to laugh about.

[spiralstair]

Yeah, It's great having former students make comments about your wife and kids on a worldwide forum...

it must be fun to give your whole life to promoting CMA in America like Master Chan, be one of the 1st to welcome the 'white man' into the indoor world...
then after 30 plus years teaching Americans you get the true reward of the New American Culture..
stabbed in the back by former students with comments about your family...

there is a cautionary tale in here somewhere for Pong Lai and all the other worthy CMAs that are newly arrived on these shores..ah but it'll be different...

but one always expects it to be different for themselves, till the poison leaves its mark..

[18elders]

respect is a 2 way street, that is the problem with wah lum, they want it to them but don't give it back.
For tournament 2000 MC asked my wife to help with translations for the chinese teams coming over. She agreed and when we got to the tournament the person in charge of that said they had it covered and didn't need her help. I informed Tu, Mimi and George if they needed anyone to help she was available. They said they didn't need the help. The next day MC sees my wife and just goes off on her why isn't she helping. At the time my wife was 5 months pregnant, she tried to explain to him they said they didn't need any help and he just flung his hands up and walked away. He didn't even listen to her. We took off work to go there, rented a hotel room, didn't get paid to judge and that is the respect we get. **** that. I don't give a **** who you are, you aren't going to yell at my wife, especially when she is pregnant.
That is the type of character they are. He is one of the first to teach white people, that is what they all say, i thought Bruce Lee was? Like he is doing us a favor, if he didn't he wouldn't have an income, we did him a favor.

Another example is Yu shan bought a lion off of MC, He told him he had a used lion in storage he would sell for $900, When yu shan came down from Tennessee to get it, MC told him $1200 because it looked better than he thought. What good is his word? He should have said, you got a deal because it is in better shape than i thought, but since i quoted you $900 that is what i will give it to you for. NO RESPECT

And yet another, MC sold SC a van, told him everything worked on it, it was the winter time and SC drove back up north, he said it was a piece of junk, the heat didn't work, there was a hole in the floor board on the drivers side and he froze his butt off, he said his body was so cold he lost his splits for a year because of it.

And even yet another, when HLL had a event in the plaza he had his school in he was putting on a demo, the temple wouldn't even support him and send any students. It's not like it is far to go, maybe a half an hour but they wouldn't support him. Then why support the temple? Their street only goes one way.

I think this public forum is great, so people can see what wl character is really like.

[Mika]

Actually, looking at this issue from the outside and not having a clue about the facts (sometimes objectivity can help), I would say your message was the first one without any substance. Claims have been made, and if you disagree, you should back up your counter claims with something solid to further this conversation. As funnee and whatnot this board can get sometimes, these people are thinking guys who often times support their statements one way or another. To contribute to this thread, you should do the same.

Of course, it's a free world and all, so anything goes, but if you wish to dissect the stories with which you cannot fully agree, use a machete instead of just mental chi to get the job done.

In any case, IMHO it would be in everyone's best interest to hear from the other side, too. By now, they must have heard about this thread. How much they care about a thread somewhere on the Net is of course another issue. But to clean the air for the parties involved, this discussion almost demands a public reply from the other party. The other party IS a major player in the field of martial arts, by any standards.

I personally hope this matter can be concluded to everyone's satisfaction and misunderstandings (et cetera) will be realized and solved.

Just my 2 cents...

//mika

[spiralstair]

18 elders wrote:"**** that. I don't give a **** who you are"

then he wrote: "I think this public forum is great, so people can see what character is really like."

Yeah, I totally agree.
See above two statements for example.

[18elders]

that's right, i am a person that sticks up for myself and isn't going to let anyone walk all over me, and one who respecsts his wife and isn't going to let anyone walk all over her either.
Would you yell at MC's wife? What gives him the right to yell at mine????????????
Like i said before, i don't give a **** who you are, what about you spiralstair, don't have the balls to stick up for your wife?(if you have one?)
I am not led on blind faith, i can think for myself and decide on things myself.
I am also truthful, i will answer anyones questions and give them examples like i just did.
Our school is always open for anyone to come in and train or talk with us. Unlike yours who tries to prohibit us from going to tournaments. Like i said , see the true character, we have nothing to hide.

[Taz]

I too would like this matter to come to end;however I do not see this in the near future. I would like an upper member of wah lum to respond to the posts on the forum. I would like to see them respond openly and honestly. It is a fact that Pong Lai was asked not to compete in a tournament in FL by the promoter and if our shrfu judged then WL would not attend. Funny thing, I thought MC has nothing to fear then why the concern for PL participation. This point is reinforced that PL and shrfu John was not asked to participate in the FL CMA organization. This organization should be open to all CMA styles and should welcome different ideas and diversity. It appears that it is for a select group of martial arts organizations. Shame, Shame!!!!
I know when I left WL, my friends at WL were told not to speak to me. When we demonstated at a local event, classmates I knew for years gave me the cold shoulder. This is the strong arm tactics of WL leadership. It is sad, very sad. Nothing to be proud of!! Nor does it show the strength of character of the organization and its leadership. And maybe this forum should be a place where this is discussed. Only then do people become more aware and change can occur.
If anything I wrote is untrue then please challenge my post. Lets see if there was a miscommunication and PL was asked to be included in the FL CMA organization. Or maybe I was too over sensitive and my WL sifu didn't ignore me or rude on any chance meetings.
Lastly, all programs have students come and go. Sometimes they begin and it wasn't what they thought it was, sometimes the grass looks greener some where else and they come back, financial problems, or just problems, we welcome them. The friendship doesn't change and they always welcome to have tea or train. That's community, a martial arts community.
Robin

[flem]

spiralstair,
you have quite often written with great intelect, but are always quick to take the defense as far as wah lum is concerned. the problem is you defend without taking the time to be objective.
most of your comments seem to have been pointed towards my post and i'd like to share whitey's point of view
tcbob and myself and various pong lai practitioners have also given time, also sacrificed much, in the way of our personal life, to promote wl. the point i was making was that there are equally "or more" talented AND dedicated practitioners WITH MORE EXPERIENCE to oversee the tc program...period. what happened there is really much like an rotc graduate coming into the marine corps and being put in charge of seasoned/trained men
you once said to me that if a tree gives bad fruit then the corresponding branches need to be pruned. not so. the tree needs to be cut down.
you also eluded to knowing me and my position in and out of wl. maybe, but i think that your opinion was "given" to you, and what you "know", may be what they want you to know i.e. tcbob's situation.
i will defend wl as far as what i was taught and how i was taught, but as far as support... it's a one way street

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Very interesting observations. Hmmm. My only question is:

HOW THE H3LL DO I GET MY NAME OFF THIS D4MNED THREAD???

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Hua Lin Laoshi: Nice try.. but, you are a valid source of history from the WL perspective.. and, remember the advice you gave me the other night..

flem: First, i must admit that Ms. Chan has an amazing understanding of "movement".. but, by "my" understanding, a poor interpretation of Taiji.. She has certain physical limitations that have become incorporated into her teaching of Taiji.. she admits to picking some of this and some of that to complie "her" Taiji.. heck, even MC says "she moon cha cha".. One of the things that most bothered me about Ms. Chan was when, during advanced Taiji class (MC leading), the class would be moving in unison and she would move against the flow disregarding the attempts of others to learn and disrespecting MC's leadership.. and, geeze, the number of times she would criticize MC calling him old and forgetful or telling us to pay no attention to a lesson that he would teach because it conflicted with her perception.. anyway, one evening she just walked out and told everyone that she was in charge of Taiji and that was that.. the friction between her and i began when students came to me rather than her for advice on Taiji.. i wont use names but, some senior people that went China with Suzy and trained with her at Taiji workshops said she even questioned the Masters to the point that they gave her "busy" work to keep her away from those actually interested in the lessons.. that is here-say, but believable..

I will not comment on Suzy's "qualifications", it is not my place.. but, given what has been posted in these forums over the last 3-4 years, it should be easy to draw your own conclusions.. Under the guidance of MC quite a few students were able to bring home the "gold".. ET and Guinevere went to Taiwan and came home with Gold trophies, i picked up some trinkets along the way, too.. so did some others.. where are the competitors now? Where is the quality that MC was able to pass on?

spiralstair: Unlike those that sneak around manipulating Tournaments for their own purposes.. Unlike those that damage the reputations of formerly loyal and trusted students over obviously ambiguous situations.. some of us prefer to let the light of "truth" show the situation for what it is..

stabbed in the back by former students with comments about your family...
please note that the "stabbing" was initiated by WL.. and, be clear on this, i still respect G'Master Chan Pui.. i think he is in a very unfavorable situation, for him it is lose/lose.. Remember, this is Martial Arts, at some point any of us are expected to defend our integrity.. The only "family" member i have an issue with is SC.. in a less dramatic way, MC for not backing me when he knew what was going on.. but, like i said, for him it was a lose/lose.. As for Mimi, i think time will be the judge for her, she could mature into a true ambassador for CMA, a bonafide G'Master, or.. well, let time work its magic..

Now, spiralstair, i have stabbed no one in the back.. i have opened an opportunity for the Temple to tell their story.. not by sneaking around pulling strings and poisoning the reputations of people that contributed much to their school, but.. right here, out in the open.. and, if ever they choose to set the record straight, there are several more people dismissed in the same manner as me that will also speak their truths..

No one likes this sort of thing, but.. left unchallenged, left untold, these dishonorable tactics will continue.. students will continue to reach for the best they can be, spend many years in faithful service to the WL Temple and, someday, if they unintentionally cross someone in power, be "excommunicated" with extreme prejudice.. funny, how one day you are in the "inner circle", the "chosen one" as some put it, and one misunderstanding later you are "garbage"..

Nothing would please me more than to meet face to face, have each party agree to move on, put it behind us and never interfere again.. but, when i find out that there is this sort of abuse of power i think its only fair that the CMA community be allowed to judge for themselves.. This is an open forum, if i have misrepresented anything or if there is something i am not aware of that might change my opinion of the situation.. here is the place to let it be known.. i am not at all afraid to admit when i have made a mistake, in fact.. if you read my posts you will see that i point out that i did have some issues that could have contributed to this situation, but.. certainly no issues that warrant such spiteful actions as used by WL..

In closing, i am sorry that i have caused so many so much unpleasantness.. it was never my intent.. i did not mean to get so deeply into the inner workings of WL, there is much value in the system (the leadership is another matter).. my only purpose was to entice WL to set the record straight.. to let a disinterested 3rd party host a Tournament without having to worry about WL politics.. Whether i officiate or not is of no concern to me, the manner in which a decision of that sort is made should be a concern for all of CMA when one certain School can impose its will.. If the Tournament Host is following this thread, i humbly apologize if this has caused you any inconvenience.. i know how it can be.. and, thanks for your understanding..

Be well...

[woliveri]

Hua Lin Laoshi
Hua Lin Laoshi
Hua Lin Laoshi
Hua Lin Laoshi
Hua Lin Laoshi
Hua Lin Laoshi
Hua Lin Laoshi

oh yeah, Preying Mantis :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


I think the absolute smartest fellow I ever saw at Wah Lum (and I wish I could have done the same thing) was a guy that went up through the levels in privates only. No group class, no temple politics, no seminars.... If I could turn back time.

Regarding Taiji and WL. I don't see how any serious student of Taiji could be happy with WL when the internal principles are not taught (at least when I was there). Basically, it was just form training a la taiji. In fact, Qi Gong exercises for building Qi and rooting were not allowed (again, when I was there). TCB, is this stuff allowed and taught now? Push hands? Is it there?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings Bill..

Suzy was attempting to mimic QiGong.. but, according to "my" understandings of my lessons in QiGong, it was external exercises.. Little, if any, attention was focused on meditation.. no training for DanTien control (circulations, spiralings, breath control, etc...).. no theory.. Basically, Suzy would go through some movements and the students would follow.. some of the movements were from recognizable QiGong sets, but there was no explanations of what was happening, how to control the Qi or even the basic QiGong theories.. I must admit that Suzy can execute a pretty good external push, but.. after working with so many "Masters", i am gaining a nice insight into the real potential of "internal" work.. It is great to be able to work with whomever i please as opposed to the very limited list of WL approved "masters"..

Push-Hands has always been left up to the students, the few drills that were done were purely external.. with no understanding of balance, mechanics or energy.. it was only a few of us that benefitted from MC's internal knowledge and that was only after years of patience (the man has a real depth of knowledge, but is very sparing with its passing on)..

On a separate note, Master Wong is quite gifted at internal work, though i don't favor the Wu style.. his pushing is a rare thing of great depth.. his senior student, Jeff is pretty dang good, too..

I'm sorry i missed you while you in town, but Lila told of your visit :) Dave is doing well, and the Temple would be wise to nurture his gift of communication and his dedication.. he is a potential asset for them.. I see Tom T. from time to time and he is also doing well, his internal journey keeps expanding.. Our school (Troy and I) has its own building, now.. Yikes!! i dislike the paper-work and drudgery of maintenance, but am very pleased with the dedication and progress of the students.. My senior student, Lenny, is really doing well (heck, sometimes i can't tell who is teaching whom).. If your time and budget permits, i would be honored to see you at the July 4th Tournament.. lots of the "old-timers" will be there..

Be well.. and, thanks for your input and concern..

[spiralstair]

T'ai Chi Bob,
Sorry man, the brush I used was too broad. I didn't mean to get any on you.
Peace.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As always, each moment is a new beginning.. no offense was taken, i simply wanted my position to be clear.. i will defend MC as well, he needs all the help he can get.. but, i see MC as an individual, separate from WL, a man of incredible talent and perseverance.. although he may be G'Master of WL, he is first and foremost a person.. away from WL and the seething pit of political turmoil, he is quite the character, humorous and wise.. i only wish his closest confidants could have his sense of fairness.. When i asked if i could teach outside the Temple, HE said "yeah, yeah.. i don't care if you open school across street" (not that i would, mind you).. he also counseled me to be careful about money, "i think you be careful, some people take advantage of you".. he knew of my over-abundance of compassion, "too nice not good for business".. even in delicate issues he was looking out for his students.. sometimes i think he knew that my time had come and gone and that Ms. Suzy and i simply couldn't see eye to eye, maybe he let this happen to end the agony.. but, in any case.. it should be done and over, not carried to others that have no part in this matter..

Stay close to MC, spiralstair.. that's where the real WL is kept.. time spent with him, even if it appears to be unrelated to WL, is an lesson worth your attention..

Be well....

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

TaiChiBob
I have a box of 4 plastic brochure holders. I was putting them out in stores around town. I'll drop them off later this week if you can use them. Also have a few packages of vinyl lettering.

Being close to MC does seem to be the key but how to get close is just a matter of luck I guess. Consider yourself lucky that you at least got that far. As you can see from some of the posts here not everyone had the opportunities you had including some Sifu level people.

[woliveri]

I will have to say one thing..... I really do miss the old days at the temple when MC taught class, when Mimi was still a squirt, and when Suzy spent most of her time in the travel agency. With all the old friends of TT, Manu, Micki, George Kee (Monk Kee), John Quinn and Ceila, Ruth, Ben, Tu, and Julie and a lot I'm forgetting...... to be sure.


Those were the days......

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I look forward to seeing you again, and thanks in advance..

As for getting close to MC, it was a matter of treating him like a person.. respecting his position, but.. just being natural around him.. you know how i acted up in class and how he and i teased each other.. i think he liked to just be a regular guy sometimes.. but, always, i kept it in perspective of his position (well, usually.. he did get irritated occasionally.. when i made fun of his butchering of the language, or pulled my pants up to my armpits..)...

Be well.. visit often..

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
I didn't get there until 1990 so I got the tail end of those good times. MC still taught some classes but it was fading fast. I was very impressed by the work ethic I saw in those days, not just the talent. That's what MC is all about. Not to say that the current crop of students doesn't work hard. I can't remember a time when I stopped in that Tom (you don't know him) wasn't either teaching or sweating through a workout.

TaiChiBob
MC IS just a person. He just happens to have a lot of skill and knowledge. I believe it helps tremendously if you can be there during off hours when class isn't going on. Something I never had the chance to do due to work and family. Of course now that I have all the free time in the world I don't have the funds go back.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Regarding Tom.. a true injustice, there.. he took a lot heat for being my friend, in fact it was very close to another booting.. he made a choice (which i respect), and still suffers for being a friend.. Mind you, Tom called me at home, emotionally distraught over certain matters and i counseled him to stay in place, renounce any friendship with me and seek MC's favor.. unfortunately, it is Ms. Suzy that he must deal with.. but, he is probably the most dedicated hard working current student/instructor.. and, as much as it hurts, i understand when we meet and he simply looks the other way.. he is desciple material, and should be respected as such.. ( i would be honored to have students with such dedication)..

Be well..

[woliveri]

Can you imagine, paying money to an organization who controls who you can associate with outside of that organization. Wholy Krap I say. Can you see how ridiculous this sounds from the outside?

[Mika]

Originally posted by woliveri
Can you see how ridiculous this sounds from the outside?

May I answer that? :D

Seriously, that is - as the topic refers - politics.

Have I seen this type of bull before? Heck, yeah. Have I experienced some myself? You betcha.

And it's not just CMAs. It's not just MAs. It is rampant. Every single aspect of life has politics, and it isn't always fair. We all just have to figure out a way to survive the game and be able to be proud of the actions we have or have not taken in the process. And in any case, it's always a learning experience, as well.

So, FWIW, such is life, and we all have been there and will continue to be there.

Good luck, you guys. I hope a satisfactory solution is in the horizon for all parties involved :)

Mika

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As Mika pointed out, "such is life".. However, that is where i think Martial Artists, CMA in particular, should stop just accepting the status quo.. we should aim for the "ideal" situation (if we keep working on our aim, maybe we'll hit it someday).. if we see it as a problem and do nothing to change it, then we are part of the problem.. Society has particular perspectives of Martial Artists, some good, some not so good.. in any case, i think ethics should be a part of any serious curriculum, it could help soften some of the "not so good" perspectives..

Be well..

[Mika]

TCB, I couldn't agree with you more. I absolutely agree with the notion of setting the standard; the MA community should be one step ahead of the spider, so people would realize Wu De by our example.

I was trying to symphatize with y'all, that's all. Now I can see how my post could also be interpreted as trying to donwplay y'all's situation. That was not at all my intention. I apologize for unclear and ambiguous wording.

I know what y'all are going through (I have been through something similar as probably have many other people reading this thread), so I was offering my support and understanding.
Your situation suxors. But many times a solution can be found. I hope this is one of those times :)

BTW, here is something I posted on another thread recently that kind is OT but relates to some aspects of this thread (also to the difficulty of bringing Wu De to people, to which TCB referred). Read it or not, it's a little OT.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=469850#post469850

Good luck, y'all :)

//mika

[phoenixdog]

Mantis is a very complex fighting art. Most people cannot just "figure it out on your own".As such,all the better to have an open forum on the subject. You can show me every secret you've ever learned. Doesn't mean I can do them.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Mantis or any Martial Art that claims, as its purpose, to be "Martial" is obligated to offer instruction in the use of the system as a "fighting art".. any instructor level student should be able to hold his or her own in competitive sparring.. and, any school with national recognition should be regularly represented at full-contact tournaments.. Accordingly, there should be observable techniques demonstrating which style a fighter represents, otherwise why stay in any particular style.. i see little if any distinguishing stylistic traits in most of the tournaments i go to..

That brings up the passing of the style's perceived worth from one generation to the next.. to leave it to the student to figure out is an abdication of the responsibility of preserving the style and its value.. in the event that a particular style has lost its "stuff", it should be billed as a traditional art form, not a "Martial Art".. a "Martial Art" should be willing to accept challenges and prevail on the merits of the style.. when i see a Muay Thai fighter i know what style i am watching.. the same should be true of each particular style.. and it is the responsibility of the leadership of a style to teach and enforce their "Martial Lineage"..

Be well..

[TAO YIN]

Since I read this entire thread out of curiosity, I thought I would post.

On the matter of the one way street named respect...that sucks big time. My heart goes out to you all. Sounds like many at Wah Lum need an arse kicking, but this goes through the world over too.

On the matter of the pregnant wife yelling...if my own blood father yelled at my wife while she was pregnant, I would immediately, with unreasonable force, make him, apologize.

Tao

[sayloc]

Tao Yin

I think it is a shame that you would make an opinion of a person or a complete system from the info you get on the net. Do you know all the people who are posting here? They may be the ones causing problems. Unless you have met both sides you could not make that determination.

I am not defending this particular system, but I see this kind of thing happen in many systems and get a little tired of the politics.

Some times people need to be yelled at. I am sure that you have even yelled at your wife once or twice. How would you make your father apologize? Beat him half to death with your mantis techniques?

Not trying to offend, just sharing some thoughts

Have a good day

I think this thread has outlived its purpose.

[TAO YIN]

Sayloc,

Hello. Thank you for your thoughts. I painstakingly try to make no opinions based on anything other than my own personal experiences. I wasted a few grand, long ago. I do not know all of the people involved; I have only met a few.

I live in China. I understand, as best I can, traditional chinese kung fu school thought. Basically, when much money is involved, it's "I say, you do, you no like, you leave." It's arrogant.

I completely agree with you. Sometimes people need to be yelled at. Sometimes people need to be beaten too. It all depends on the situation, of course. And yes, if my father was being ridiculously rude to my pregnant girl and acting like a child, while he was walking away, I would walk up behind him, slap him on the back just hard enough to get his attention, and I would say, "please apologize" very kindly. Oh, and I remember few NPM techniques.

Tao

[sayloc]

Tao

Can't argue with that!

I hope your father isnt better at the mantis than you!
Could mean trouble for you:)

[shang wu]

nothing has any meanning other than that whitch you give it. to me WL has no meanning.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
Maybe he means he put it in his money belt. :) HA! Sorry, bad joke.

shang wu
So what's the word on the Li En Jiu seminar? Post the info.

[TAO YIN]

hehehe!

I said wasted, as in money, not waisted.

Hua Lin, how is big Mike these days? Does he still live across the street?

"Ta Tong Long shi hen hao." His Mantis is very good.

Tao

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I was replying to yu shan. He said 'waisted'.

I can't pm or email you and 'you know who' doesn't like being mentioned in a public forum so I can't tell you what he's up to these days.

Email me at hualinmantis@yahoo.com