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Ross
02-10-2001, 01:21 AM
There has been an increasing number of sifu's showing the butterfly knives flipped (the side/back of the blade against the forearm with the tip pointing towards the elbow ). This is like a knife position sometimes used in Lung Ying or possibly Hung gar sets.

I would like to hear explanations of why this has recently become popular. I had the impression that flipping the knives backwards into this position somehow violated wing chun principles(the blade is being sent towards yourself and not forwards towards your opponent). Anyone explain this to me? Or has this just been more "flash" added recently?

Thanks R

old jong
02-10-2001, 03:31 AM
I have seen peoples do that! Others won't and they all are from Yip Man's lineages! So...Maybe there is an explanation.
IMO,I think that these moves were "cutted out!" when the knifes were adopted in the system.They were adapted to the wing chun principles.
I may be wrong on this but could some have learned their knifes outside of the system? It is said after all that very few completed the system with Yip Man!
I guest that some of you are well documented on this and could share some light?
:confused:

C'est la vie

Ross
02-10-2001, 05:05 AM
OJ,

One reason I brought this up is that there is a picture of one of Ip Chings US instructors with his knives held like this....

http://www.stgeorgewingchun.com/home.htm

I too thought that only other WC/VT/WT practitioners were doing this but now I am sure I have seen this from both Ip Ching and Ip Chun lineages.

Anyone from those two lineages care to explain further?

Thanks R

kungfu cowboy
02-10-2001, 05:09 AM
My, my...those have GOT to be the coolest pants I have ever seen.

punchdrunk
02-10-2001, 05:25 AM
Not many people got to learn the knives form in Wing Chun, but many other systems have butterfly knife forms. I beleive some sifu's learned the other styles versions and tried to pass it off as belonging in our system. If u research into the wu dip do forms of Hung ga or CLF, etc. u may find them to be the same as some Wing Chun sifu's form. But the Wing Chun form should follow the same basic principles of the system. But I wouldn't be to quick to criticize someons form, at least not untill I heard the reasons and explanation of it.
Enjoy your training.

Watchman
02-10-2001, 09:29 AM
Wow, people are actually looking at my website!

R: the best person to ask about why Ip Ching teaches the knives to be flipped backwards as part of the Bat Cham Do would be my sifu, Ron Heimberger (the guy in the picture). I'm not skilled, or knowledgable, enough in the principles of the Bot Cham Do to even venture an explanation.

Ron Heimberger can be reached at mail@wckfc.com
BTW, he is in Paris right now teaching seminars, and is on to Bulgaria from there, so there may be a delay in him answering his email (I've been waiting for a few days to hear from him myself). He is, however, very good about answering questions.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

rp
02-10-2001, 03:00 PM
I have trained a little with the knives. Our Sifu claimed that flipping was used by other Sifu's for show only without useful application.

After experiementing with friends there is no obvious advantage to flipping. The same benefit can be achieved without.

I understand the knive form and training to be conceptual as other forms. It is convenient to flip a butterfly knife but more difficult to flip a normal knife (which in reality you may have in your hand). In fact flipping under pressure may result in dropping the knife! Don't forget you may need to flip back again doubling your chances of dropping the knife.

You rarely see other balde systems flipping their blades, they may twist and twirl them but a firm grip is important.

Just my 2cents

WT Lawyer
02-10-2001, 08:29 PM
There is one obvious advantage to flipping the knives: it allows for close range cutting. The inverted grip allows you to attack with techniques such as the cup jarn as seen in the biu jee form.

In general, the knives should be seen as an extention of the hand, and many of the movements done with the knives reflect movements seen in the hand forms and on the dummy. In very close range, where one might otherwise use elbow strikes, the knives can be flipped so as to cut with movements similar to elbow strikes.

Watchman
02-10-2001, 10:22 PM
rp: I can assure you that nothing Ip Ching does is for show, and that there are practical uses for flipping the blades under certain circumstances. The actual motion of flipping the blade does not occur until the 8th (final) section of the Bot Cham Do form, as the motion is reserved for emergency situations (sort of the same idea as some the Biu Tze motions being reserved for emergencies - you don't intentionally bend forward at the waist in a fight!).

Well, I put my foot out and ventured an answer. I'm not an expert on the Bot Cham Do, as I am currently in the process of learning them myself. Like I said above, Ron Heimberger is the person to ask - especially pertaining to matters concerning questions about any of Ip Ching's teaching methods.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[This message was edited by Watchman on 02-11-01 at 12:38 PM.]

rp
02-11-2001, 01:17 PM
Again, I'll try to say it a little clearer. If you are unlucky enough to fight you will rarely have a knife in your hand. The chances of having a baat jam dao in your hand are even less likely.

You may have a kitchen knife. In hong kong we use beef knives. If you twirl your knife you will drop it. Whilst you twirl it you may even cut yourself.

The elbow strike is interesting and I have heard it before but there are easier ways to stick the knife in the enemy. Still tanks for the thought.

In wing chun you should think in a simple and realistic manner and experiement. Good luck. I hope you Sifu has a good explanation.

vingtsunstudent
02-11-2001, 05:28 PM
please read the letter from my teacher concerning the knives.
i don't know about other people flipping the knives nor do i care, i am pretty sure though that we don't flip the knives at all.
wong was one of only a handful to learn the knives & if that's what he teaches i'll go with him.
watchman(please i am not singling you out) & others fairly new to this forum, i have mentioned this before & i don't mean to offend anyone but in the years after yip man's death whenever anyone who had any questions regarding the system or its usages would visit wong for his knowledge.
look if people feel things need to be added then that is evolution, even if it is not for everyone.
everyone in time will see & use wing chun the way they feel fit & i think that this a principal we should all realise.
vts

Watchman
02-11-2001, 08:46 PM
Tui Shing Tin and Ip Ching also completed the system under Ip Man (and the two were very good friends of Wong Shun Leung and were with him the night he went to the hosiptal just before his death).

People understandable sought out Wong Shun Leung because he was one of the most visible Wing Chun practitioners because of his fighting escapades. Ip Bo Ching had a comparable reputation (and more experience than Wong), but never had any desire to teach. Wong had an open school and loved sharing his art.

Anyway, I have no idea what methods Wong used to teach the Bot Cham Do, or how his instructors teach it now. I do have the utmost repect for all of them. I trace my lineage through Ip Ching, and therefore concern myself with his methods (rightfully so, I believe).

rp: I carry a knife with me whenever I go out (a habit I learned growing up in New Mexico), so the principles I am currently learning with the Bot Cham Do I feel are directly applicable. Additionally, since my home state issues conceal carry permits, I also carry a slimmed-down .45 automatic pistol whenever I go out with my daughters. Weapons are a major concern of my own personal training philosophy.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

Watchman
02-12-2001, 05:37 AM
rp: I'm sure my sifu does have a good explanation, however, I wasn't the one with the question. If you don't think flipping the blades is practical, or don't understand why they would be flipped, then by all means, don't do it. I for one won't attempt to use anything in a fight that I don't completely understand, or am proficient with. It sounds like you don't have much of a reason to comment on it anyway, seeing as you stated that you will probably never have to worry about employing a knife in a fight.

vts: I appreciate your plug for your lineage (which I'm assuming you trace through Wong Shun Leung). I couldn't quite tell if you were insinuating that Ip Ching took it upon himself to add things to the Bot Cham Do. All I can say is that Ip Ching says that he practices and teaches Wing Chun (including the knives) exactly as his father taught him to.

Like I said before, if you want to know why Ip Ching teaches the Bot Cham Do the way he does, and what the uses are for the particular aspect of the Bot Cham Do that is in question, then you have the information you need to ask the person who would be able to authoritatively answer the question. If you don't care, you don't care.....and guess what? Neither do I.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

Ross
03-16-2001, 12:12 AM
Thought I would make another "stab" at getting an answer on this one. I was hoping to have the explanation from Ron Hermberger(sp?)Ip Ching lineage or someone else of a similar rank/knowledge level. Anyone else want to venture forth an explanation for doing something that appears so un Wing Chun ish.

Thanks R

Watchman
03-16-2001, 10:44 AM
I was able to catch my sifu a couple of days ago before he leaves for Europe again and was training with him on the Bot Cham Do. I remembered this point, and since I didn't understand it myself (I'm just into the first two sections of the Bot Cham Do) I asked him what the reverse holding position was for since I was watching my kung-fu brother practicing that particular cutting motion on the other side of the room.

(Disclaimer -- remember that this explanation is second hand from him, and from someone who has not been fully through the principles of the Bot Cham Do -- and I'm freakin' tired right now, but saw the post, so here goes).

Anyway, he told me that you would never want to intentionally flip a blade backwards like that going into a fighting situation (what's the purpose of utilizing something that will give you an extra reach advantage if you flip it backwards?). Utilizing that particular movement is in actuality an emergency technique akin to some of the movements found in Biu Tze.

If you find yourself attempting to utilize a knife and you are severely crowded or grappled with, there is a very real and dangerous possibility of having the weapon stripped from you - or the blade flat out grabbed and restrained (and yes, the enemy would slice up his own hand, but the blade would be trapped).

[There is the possibility that if you actually have a knife in your hand in a fight and you make a cut against someone closing with you quickly that isn't severe enough to kill or maim him (yes kids, Wing Chun is a combat art) then you may find the guy on top of you - if you don't use your footwork properly, and no one is perfect. Even after having a major artery slashed it takes 3 seconds before your enemy will go into shock. A lot can happen in 3 seconds.]

Quickly holding the knife close to your own body and turning the blade backwards along your forearm allows you to cut using diagonal upward and downward slashing motions (exactly like Biu Tze's kup jarn) allowing you to attack with full power AS AN EXIT MANEUVER from the grapple or crowding attempt. You get crowded, turn the blade, cut with power generated from the waist as you step to regain your range, then turn the **** blade back where it's suppsed to be.

You have to remember that "back in the day" blade fighting in combat situations wasn't usually one-on-one, especially on the battlefield. While you are carving up the enemy in front of you, you can have guys moving in from the sides and attempting to clash/crowd or "body-block" you onto the ground. In the modern world as well your potential enemy isn't going to stand there in knifing range to let you use your full mobility and cutting power -- he's often going to try and invade to strip your weapon or tie you up so he doesn't get cut.

Ron had us bust out the rubber training "fighting knives" to practice this movement while someone closes in tight to use their body as an attempt to control your cutting motions. Sometimes I could just keep my knife blade-forward and cut through the attempt, but sometimes I had to use a huen sau circling motion to twist the knife back as I was being grappled with, then jut my elbow up and slash my way out. It was easier to control the knife because I was using precise, tight movements.

My sifu also took hold of one of the little rubber knives and said "take it from me" by having me get close to him (within grappling/elbow range)and try to pin his arm to strip the knife. Guess what? Yup, you guessed it, I coldn't get a hold of the knife, or his **** arm, because each time he would shift his hips and turn the blade as he held his arm close to his body then cut me right across my throat or the inside of my arms while he was still in close.

This cutting motion is only seen in the 8th and final section of the Bot Cham Do as Ip Ching teaches it. The entire prior portion of the form is done with the knives blade forward, as they should be when in your proper weapon ranges -- but you don't always have the luxury of choosing where you will find yourself in a particular encounter. Therefore, turning the blades backwards is seen as an emergency maneuver (only done if you have the hand and forearm control, AND only as a way to find your exit from the grapple so you can turn them back).

It may seem a little "un-wing-chun-ish", but so does the portion of Biu Tze where you bend your head forward at the waist at the end of the form. Why in God's name would you ever intentionally bend forward like that in a fight? Seems a little "un-wing-chun-ish", doesn't it? But, if you ever find yourself in a head lock, or have your head pulled forward in a grappling maneuver, you better know how to get back upright so you can continue the fight.

Hope that made some sense. Like I said, my above answer was the result of a ten minute explanation by my sifu, plus another fifteen minutes of quick practice with the "little knives" so I could visualize it, before he reminded me that my body mechanics sucked and had me get back to practicing my footwork.

BTW, Ip Ching is coming out here in May, so I'll get brave and ask him what his old man had to say about this whole question when he learned the Bot Cham Do from him personally.

"Learning without thought is labour lost; thought without learning is perilous." -- Confucious

[This message was edited by Watchman on 03-17-01 at 01:00 AM.]

[This message was edited by Watchman on 03-17-01 at 01:08 AM.]

John D
06-16-2001, 09:17 AM
Hmmmmm....I will share in-spite of the inflamation it will no doubt cause.....

Hopefully, sharing this will not brown off lots of folks. I will make a honest attempt to share what I have collected over the past three decades.....you should draw your on conclusions. Feel free to added to.... or clarify my personal collection.

Again the following is only my own perceptions about the WC Do....


Yip Bo Ching (deceased) Never flipped his blades......his hand written notes collected from his room when his family cleaned out his room after his death also noted that Yip Man's Do curriculum had 12 sections. Lots of other goodies were cleaned out of Yip Bo Ching's room....including copies of the three Leung Jon medicine books.

Ip Cing (and later Ip Chun) flip their broadswords. While I visited his home in 1997,Ip Ching told me that he taught his older brother, Ip Chun, the Do the same sections. Their sets are identical.

Tsui Sheung Ting- I do not think flips his Do. He told me at our luncheon in Dec. 2000. that Yip Man showed only individual Do techniques and as far as he could remember did not show a Do system of many sections.

Wong Tsok (deceased) - Flipped his blades but said it was strictly a play of the hand by many Do practitioners but not really a good practice in combat..... Wong Tsok story is similar to Tsui Shun Ting's statement about indivdual techniques. He was upset that Yip Man taught many "prescrption sets" to feed eager people a remedy for their hungry minds (many hounded Yip Man for secrets)...it was also profitable. Many got garbage but the many different prescriptions did remedy the hunger!

Ho Kam Ming - I did not see him move personally but understand that he does not flip the blades.

Lok Yiu - ???? No information

Wong Long Ching - did not learn any complete blade sequence.

Leung Ting - I do not know much of his Do knowledge. I do not know if he flips his blades. However, after seeing him on video using the gaun do inside his arms (a BIG no no) I was let down...

Cheung Chock Hing - Cheung writes that he constructed his own Do set because he though the old ways were lacking..... so can't comment on something new. I believe he wrote this in response to questions in one of the magazines(?) back in the 1980's.

Wong Shun Leung (deceased) - "NEVER FLIP YOUR DO....NO SUCH MOVEMENT IN THE WC DO INVENTORY...." "....of the 12 sections that I an my Sihing Yip learned from Ip Man, no section has a flipped Do...No such move..." This is the scolding I got from Wong Shun Leung himself in 1980 at the old Kowloon school. Master Wong Tsok happened to be their and quizzed Wong Shun Leung about not flipping the Do....Wong Shun Leung had many words, many of which should not be openly talked about (too much embarrassment and heart ach).

Wang Kiu - I have no information if he flips or does not flip his Do.

Leung Shung (decease) - I do not have much informations except a seeing few still pictures... apparently he knew at least through section five. However much he knew.... he not seen not holding the DO in flipped position.

Lo Man Kam - Follows the Yip brothers and flips his blades.


Please fill in other names that you know of...!
********************************************
There are a number of WC elders who learned from Yip Man. Some say they learned piecemeal while other learn next to nothing of the Do. Several claim they know the "real thing"... but who can be sure.

I can make only two correlations:

1) Both deceased masters Yip Bo Ching and Wong Shun Leung had the same names for their twelve sections. Ip Ching, Ip Chun, and Lo Man Kam are identical in their sections. I can find no other correlation to this date but hopefully most will recognize what is useful and what is worthless in whatever system they learn. Leung Ting has a good idea in recognizing (adopting?) a Filippino system as a useful sword method....why not?

Regards,
John

mun hung
06-16-2001, 11:54 AM
I asked my instructor, SiFu Allan Lee who learned the knives from Yip Man about this. He does not flip them backwards either in the bat jam do set.

kj
06-16-2001, 01:33 PM
John D. wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Leung Shung (decease) - I do not have much informations except a seeing few still pictures... apparently he knew at least through section five. However much he knew.... he not seen not holding the DO in flipped position.
[/quote]

John, you are correct - there is no flipping in the Leung Sheung knife set.

Nice to see aboard.
- kj

sifuironfist
06-17-2001, 04:56 AM
I have read many post by the Legendary John D. on this forum and others. He seems to be a collector of stories, tales, and legends. He always spins an interesting tale. But most of them he tells as if he were at the scene as an eye whitness. I respect his love of the art, but, sometimes he speaks as if he is the one true authority. In Wing Chun, there are many who have made false claims, and point to sources that can not be questioned, in order to validate their story. This is and has been a problem since the death of Yip Man. As to weather you flip the knives or not, or 7 sections, 8 sections, or 12 sections, who knows for sure. Oh yea, The legendary John D., I forgot.

Americans are so smart, they can put a man on the moon, but they still study Karate!!!

Sihing73
06-17-2001, 06:02 AM
Hello All,

SifuIronFist you seem to have a problem with "John D" and I am curious as to why his posts seem to upset you so much. If you know of inaccuracies in anything he has stated or can add to the subject then you are welcome to do so. Whether you agree with what he has stated or not is not the issue. There seems to be some underlying personal thing going on, at least to me. It is too bad that neither of you lists an email addres making this, and other forums the only means of communication.

My only suggestion is that if you can not add anything then it may be best to leave it alone.

:) Sometimes the loudest roar comes from the weakest mouse. :p

Peace,

Dave

whippinghand
06-17-2001, 06:44 AM
Watchman,
When you wrote that "Ip Ching is coming out here in May", where is "here"? What city? What country?

Watchman
06-17-2001, 07:18 AM
Ip Ching was scheduled to travel to St. George, Utah, USA late May/early June of this year. Regrettably, my SiGung had been having some difficulty with his health that kept him home in Hong Kong, so the seminar was called off.

He has been out to our St. George school twice in the past two years and we were really looking forward to his personal instruction again.

Hopefully, I can pinch enough pennies to travel out to Hong Kong with my sifu in the near future to see him.

John D
06-17-2001, 08:43 AM
KJ,

Thanks for adding to the list. Can you give more details on Yip man's eldest Hong Kong student. I am interested in knowing how many sections/groups/techniques are found in the Leung Shun Do system. Write what you can....but feel free to say nothing you feel uncomfortable with.

The last time I bumped into K. Chung sifu was in Fatshan in Nov. 1999. I didn't have much time to sit and talk stories about his teacher.

Cheers,
John DiVirgilio in Hawaii

Sharky
06-17-2001, 10:15 PM
It looks cooler

My anus is superiorâ„¢

El_CLap
06-17-2001, 11:43 PM
Watchman, weren't you going to get me some pics of your wooden Bart Cham dao?

Watchman
06-17-2001, 11:49 PM
Sorry man! I completely forgot. I'll score a friend's digital camera this week and get a pic posted for you.

wingchun.com
06-18-2001, 02:25 AM
Check this out:

http://home.hkicable.com/n_n/image/movie/05.jpg

It is a site for Ip Ching's students.

So what do you think?

kj
06-19-2001, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Can you give more details on Yip man's eldest Hong Kong student. I am interested in knowing how many sections/groups/techniques are found in the Leung Shun Do system.[/quote]

Hi John. I have only seen Leung Sheung's knife set a few times (performed by his students), and apologize that it was not frequent enough for me to reliably recount the sections. I see that David Williams is on the forum now, so I will defer to him for detail on the choreography. The set is short and clean compared to most more modern variations I've seen. Definitely no flipping. For us it is considered an extension of empty hands training at advanced levels.

John D
06-20-2001, 01:11 PM
KJ

There is nothing to apologize for....this forum is for sharing with others.

David W. and I are in contact. I do recall seeing a book/magazine(?) photo of the late Leung Shung in the "Yat Jee Do" position. This technigue is very unique and is not found in most Do inventory of the many Yip Man followers. However, the Yat Jee Do technique was/is practiced by two (maybe three) other old time Yip man followers, Yip Bo Ching and Wong Shun Leung (maybe a few others including Ho Kam Ming).

The Yat Jee Do technique is found in the "back" half of sections 5 and 9.

Again, thanks for sharing......

John

kj
06-21-2001, 12:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>David W. and I are in contact.[/quote]

I'd be interested to know too, if you find out.

Thanks John, and take care.
- Kathy Jo

reneritchie
08-28-2001, 09:21 PM
Hi John,

Interesting, though somewhat controversial topic. Here's my understanding, fwiw.

Foshan students - I've heard both flip and no flip, though I have also heard Yip Man did not teach weapons in Foshan.

HK - It's my understanding Yip Man began teaching San Sik, later taught the 3 forms and half the dummy, until a private student paid a small fortune to learn more, which led to problems with previous students (some sorted out, some not). The knives seem to go from very simple one section to 4, 8, then 12, then back to a different 8, and some reportedly did learn flipping directly from Yip Man (though some have said this was an experiment from Yip sifu based on some exchange). Few learned knives directly, and some, when he was sick, were asked to go get the rest from junior classmates. Some did, some balked, others came back and may have got them from Yip later, others filled in with other stuff.

Leung Sheung - I've seen several students of his doing incredibly different knife sets. Some don't flip, some flip in ways I've never seen before (one into a double handle catch above the head). I default to Ken Chung sifu's form, which does not flip and seems simple enough to fit my understanding of how the knives were back then. I think basic once out, once back.

Lok Yiu - Flips, according to a couple of European students. I read an old article where Lok said he had much more interest in pole than knives, however.

Tsui Sheung-Ting - Doesn't flip. Simple, sensible form, I think 4 sections.

Yip Bo-Ching - Doesn't flip (though never seen the form)

Lo Man-Kam - Flips. Similar to Yip Chun/Ching set.

Wong Shun-Leung - Doesn't flip, 8-12 sections depending on who you talk to. Some say their knives are blunt and used for breaking rather than cutting.

Wong Kiu - Doesn't flip, 4 sections if memory serves. The version I saw held the knives flat almost exclusively (like a spatula)

William Cheung - I heard similar to you from a tape, that the current variations of the form were created as a replacement for an older version. I've not been able to find out what an older version may have been, but have heard his main sihing was Tsui Sheung-Tin and there may be similarity)

Hawkins Cheung - Doesn't flip. Very similar to Ho Kam-Ming set.

Duncan Leung - I've heard he doesn't flip and that his set is similar to Ho Kam-Ming (though I've seen pictures that look flipped but might just have been poses)

Koo Sang - Have heard he doesn't flip, though I have seen pictures from that lineage with flipped knives (may not mean anything). Similar to Leung Ting and Moy Yat set, I think. I've heard Koo Sang, Yip Ching, Yip Chun, Moy Yat, Leung Ting, and Lo Man-Kam are all similar and some may have worked/trained together.

Yip Chun/Ching - Flip. They looked like the same set to me but some in that lineage have said there are differences.

Stewart Fung (Fung Hong) - Flip. Reportedly learned in same session as Yip Ching and is nearly identical.

Leung Ting - Doesn't flip.

Your point on Gaun Do is also something some do with Kwun Do and seems to pop up mostly in the latter 8 section form.

As an aside, the Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung knives don't flip, Pao Fa Lien don't flip, most Gulao don't flip (some do Siu Lam knives instead and do flip). I've seen Chan Yiu-Min knives flipped. Pan Nam does a Hung set with flips. Cho Ga flips but might be from Choy Lai-Fut.

Rgds,

Rene Ritchie

wingchunalex
08-30-2001, 04:43 AM
i read some articles on buddha hand wing chun. they flip the knives. they even flip the knives an do jam gaun on the dummy. its really interesting because we don't flip knives at my school either.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

hunt1
09-01-2001, 07:29 PM
This discussion and most discussions of the knife form tend to be very superficial and flipping seems to always be a focus.
The question really should be what do you learn from the form.if you focus on that the number of sections ,flip or not to flip etc become trivial.
All forms can be done with the knifes,SLT requires a few little changes.The knife form can be and should be done open handed.To me the form is merely a 4th hand set done with knives as a training tool.
I have been taught 4 knife sets and seen a few intersting ones.Many interesting and valuable fighting concepts are contained in the set.Most notably fighting at range.In fact if you look at the knife set from an open hand point of view you will see much of William Cheungs TWC.
As to the number of sections,does it matter?You should and can practice the knives with all WC hands,arms.If a knife form doesnt show a bong do for example it doesnt mean you cant bong with the knives.Often people restict their development by restricting their understanding to what is only shown in forms.

Roy D. Anthony
09-06-2001, 09:14 AM
Flipping is used as a method of recovery. Should the opponent's weapon react towards one's dao rather strongly and one is about to lose their weapon then flip and use. Much like a recovery from a man sao.

reneritchie
09-06-2001, 05:42 PM
Hi Roy,

Interesting, where does that explination come from? Is the flip structurally sound enough to survive that type of application without the practitioner becoming disarmed (of weapon or actual limb?) I've played against some heavy, well structured pole and found anything deviating from solid, aligned grip during interaction risky.

FWIW- I never learned flipping when I learned knives but did learn methods of recovery through changing (as one would the arms). These seem to work well against heavy pole.

In Wing Chun branches that historically do flip the knives, the application seems the same as that of other Nam Kuen--to protect the arteries inside the arm when overwhelmed and provide a shield for withdrawing.

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
09-12-2001, 07:07 AM
History doesn't prove use. Testing skills does. Demonstration mode is easy to prove anything. Using words can also.
Every Martial Art I have studied has flipping of weapons. Everything is useful at the right moment, even Yin and Yang.
When an opponent pressures his weapon against yours a flip can change the outcome to your advantage.
Historically??? we do not live in the old days anymore, therefore the use of these techniques have been lost already. It is important to explore every possible method, every possible energy application,every possible angle, every possible stance, then you will know the truth.

reneritchie
09-12-2001, 01:26 PM
Hi Roy,

I think that's a good point but everything needs to follow within reason. For example, you seem to often give the advice of looking to SLT. If I were to insert a jumping spinning back kick into SLT, and look to it, I may not get a WCK answer. I see the comment on knives the same. Just because other systems have knives that flip, doesn't mean its WCK, just as other systems have butterfly kicks that flip the whole body around doesn't mean WCK had one, or that it will fit into WCK.

I can see a flip working in some situations but I can also see it proving disasterous (I've seen a *very* famous student of Yip Man, with whom I'm sure you're familiar drop the knife while flipping while under little or no pressure).

Do you think its impossible to accomplish what you do flipping without flipping? (ie, in structurally sounder manner?) If so, I certainly understand doing it. If not, I default to safer 8)

Rgds,

RR

chi-kwai
09-12-2001, 02:18 PM
Your point is well made, and I agree with you completely. Even so, it boils down to how you were taught. There are people that include round kicks and high kicks in wing chun, there are those that don't.

If you are one that is capable of executing such actions at the appropriate times or without fault, then more power to you. Personally, I am going to stick to the simple and effective as I have been taught.

--
chi kwai

sunkuen
09-12-2001, 03:14 PM
Being able to do that fancy flippin' just adds a little more skill and finesse to your hands,nobodys makin you flip the knives during combat. ;)

reneritchie
09-12-2001, 03:53 PM
Agreed. However, I'd add that, IMHO, it shouldn't end with what you were taught. Yip Man sifu is often quoted as advising his students not to trust him, that he may be tricking him and they should go out and test for themselves.

My own sifu gave me a great gift when teaching me as well. He told me he could pass on the art as it was passed on to him but that I had to go out and see for myself.

So, in the end, I feel everyone is responsible for their own WCK (though I certainly understand and believe in drinking the water and remembering its source 8)

WRT to things like roundhouse kicks and flipping, which do not appear to be native to WCK but which some have extrapolated or imported, I think that if they prove very effective, they deserve the credit and if not, WCK doesn't deserve the blame. Perhaps that stems from my own learning, however, where changes, if any, appear to have been well documented and the reasons for them explained, so everyone knew what was and what is and could choose what would be 8)

Rgds,

RR

hunt1
09-12-2001, 04:33 PM
To flip or not to flip that is the question.
How many of you knife experts have ever fought with knives or done full speed sparring with a non-WC person using only head gear and leather gloves as protection,and dull blades.I have.
The only instance where i would ever suggest an intential flip would be when attempting a roof cover against a longer weapon and the flipped knife is the back up.
Knife fighting is even faster and more brutal than open hand.Your survival requires a mind set that accepts getting killed.You will strike and cut or be cut so fast that you will never have time for a flip.
Flipping is nice for dextarity training and could be used against a longer slower weapon if no other options were available.

Roy D. Anthony
09-12-2001, 10:06 PM
A spinning kick added to Siu Lim Tao is definitely nothing like adding a flip to your broadsword. Think of what is being said here.

It as as obvious as this:
Tan is stronger than Bong.
However bong is still taught.
The Kiu Sao of the arm bends back.
Similarly, with swords, there are stronger techniques than flipping, however having the flip is parallel to the Bong sao. Close range Sword techniques.
Similarly, Fencing does not bend the sword back, yet in close range they allow this to happen, which allows the fencer to use the Pummel. Therefore the term, Pummeling someone.

reneritchie
09-12-2001, 10:16 PM
Sorry, I'm not sure I'm following. In my experience, neither Tan nor Bong have much to do with strength. If either meets resistence, I don't try to outmuscle them, but to change to an advantageous position. Is your experience different?

I don't know anything much about sword or fencing, only a little Wing Chun knife, so I'm not sure about that aspect. I learned Bong Do without flipping, however (pretty close to how I've seen Yip Man students like Ho Kam-Ming or Wong Shun-Leung do it). Could you explain it with flipping?

In my experience, the wrist becomes the elbow, the knife the literal "iron bridge", and once you have that, if your hands are already good, there's the knife system.

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
09-12-2001, 10:57 PM
Perhaps that is the confusion. You have been learning the Knife version. I have been speaking of the sword version.
Strength can mean many things. Structure comes to mind.I do not teach online. If you need to learn then Join my classes.

reneritchie
09-13-2001, 04:11 AM
Hi Roy,

We might be talking past each other. In most systems of Wing Chun Kuen (inluding Yip Man), there is no "sword", only "knife" (no "gim/jian" only "do/dao"). Sword is found in Taiji and other arts (or like Li Mu-Bai used in Crouching Tiger), and is completely different from WCK Seung Do (Double Knives).

And thanks for the offer, though I still have a lot to learn I'm happy with my present sifu. All I'm looking for here is simply the courtesy of discussion on what is, after all, a discussion forum.

I tend to look at discussion as Chi Sao. I roll, probe a little, and see. If someone has good
structure (knows what they're talking about and can support their views, whether I agree or not), everything stays centered like Siu Lien/Nim Tao and we both benefit. If someone can't/won't share, I find they go into Chum Kiu (turning the conversation or stepping into tangents) and then you can add or subtract and keep them going. Fun but not as productive. If they panic (want to save face instead of sharing) I find they may go into Biu Jee (trying to recover through empty bluster or overwhelm with personal insult). Then I tend to let them fall around as they like and console myself to finding a more productive partner.

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
09-13-2001, 07:54 AM
Exactly, if only I could find a worthy opponent.

chi-kwai
09-13-2001, 03:17 PM
...

--
chi kwai

BeiKongHui
09-13-2001, 03:50 PM
Nice verbal kung fu Rene.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

reneritchie
09-13-2001, 03:56 PM
Hi Roy,

I try not to think of others in the wing chun family as opponents, and people generous enough to chi sao or discuss with me more as partners, since they help me explore. With all due respect, I'm not sure how you can look around this forum and not find worthy people. Seems right full with them to me.

In Chinese martial arts, we use the terms sihingjay and sidaimui (teacher elder brother/sister and teacher younger brother/sister), which, shows that we can learn both from those that came before and those that come after. That's the spirit I try to engage with, anyway.

I've heard good things about you, both as a person and as a WCK practitioner, and I still look forward to productive, mutually beneficial discussions with you in the future.

Rgds,

RR

mun hung
09-13-2001, 06:53 PM
You are a true gentleman.

Roy D. Anthony
09-13-2001, 07:10 PM
Why Thank You Rene, and I have heard good things about you as well. Therefore I hope to see continued high standards from you.
Cheers.

reneritchie
09-13-2001, 07:28 PM
It's long been my belief that a forum is a continual reflection of its membership. Each member and each post they make helps define a forum, give it atmosphere and environment. So, whenever a post is made, we all have a responsibility to the forum to ensure its relevant and productive.

I'm not kidding anyone. What kind of contribution are you trying to make?

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
09-13-2001, 08:33 PM
There are 2 meanings for the word Dao, One is Knife, the other is Sabre aka. broadsword.
this parallels the difference in the word or character Sao. This one could mean hand or arm.
There has been a lot of talk about a dagger form in the Wing Chun system. These are usually called the drummer's dagger. These are definately too small to flip and makes it dangerous to do so. In fact, the pair I have that are similar to the Pah Chum Dao,only smaller, do not have a hook, therefore no flips possible.
Gim is the character or word for Sword also, however, when speaking of the 2 swords, in literature about weapons, if the gim is referred to in english as a Sword, then the Dao is referred to as a Sabre.
Similarly, when the Gim is refered to as Double Edge Sword, the Dao is referred to as a Broadsword.
Hope this clarifies some things for the viewers of this forum.

reneritchie
09-13-2001, 08:55 PM
Thanks Roy. That type of elaboration is really helpful in understanding where you're coming from.

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
09-14-2001, 03:27 AM
You're quite welcome Sir. and BTW thanks for revealing your weapons.SMILE

reneritchie
09-14-2001, 04:41 AM
Hi Roy,

Same here 8)

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
09-14-2001, 11:29 AM
Although I have a pair of these daggers, I do also have a few pair of the Wing Chun Swords. Therefore Flipping is involved in these.

Roy D. Anthony
09-14-2001, 11:33 AM
Sorry R, we got carried away.

reneritchie
09-16-2001, 12:03 AM
Good point about "sao" and "do". This is the case with a lot of Chinese words and in my experience is typically overcome with context or the use of further, refining, characters. For example, Sao Bei, Sao Jee, Sao Geng, etc. or in the case of knives, Dan Do, Lao Yip Do, Yan Mao Do, Ma Jam Do, Kwan Do, etc. None of these are really "swords", though in English we might use saber, cutlass, falchion, halbard, etc. as opposed to single, willow leaf, goose-quill, etc. to make them a little more relatable. By the same token, on a WCK forum, I think the context of the use of Do is pretty clear ;)

I've heard the theory of the lion team drummer's knife before, along with the usual boat chef knife, Siu Lam knife, etc. and find them interesting but still more in the realm of conjecture. The knife typically used in Foshan WCK (the same type used by Yip Man's early students, not quite the same as the one used mostly by the latter students which does flip better) is found elsewhere in China and I think it will be possible to trace the introduction of that knife to the Red Junks in the future. Considering that, and that no known branch of WCK has a drummer's knife set (though I understand some in the West may have heard the theory and incorporated it as a fun extrapolation) probably means the principles handed down apply to the typical knife we see from Foshan WCK.

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
09-16-2001, 05:12 AM
The use is quite clear.

Roy D. Anthony
09-16-2001, 05:13 AM
I HAVE a pair of Drummer's Knives.

Roy D. Anthony
09-16-2001, 05:13 AM
Chop, Chop!!

John D
10-07-2001, 08:23 AM
Again, that was a very good post on the WC Do. Someday, I would like to see the Yeun Kay Shan Do.

On a side note - You are real gentleman from the Eastcoast! A man who uses his "real name" when posting when so many others need to hide their identity. As a rule I don't read many posts/replies from people who cannot use their names.

Cheers,
John F. DiVirgilio

Jeff Brown
10-07-2001, 01:46 PM
"A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Sincerely,

Meng Shuo

"Once I have harnessed the power of the Sun, I will be UNSTOPPABLE!" -- Mini-Me

whippinghand
10-08-2001, 07:03 AM
Me-Tarzan. You-Jane.

EmptyCup
10-08-2001, 07:08 AM
no wonder you are a man of few words...and so hard to understand :D

reneritchie
10-08-2001, 05:20 PM
Thanks and no worries. I'll catch up with you via email.

Also, FWIW, according to Andreas Hoffmann, the classical Jee Shim Weng Chun system does not flip the blades either.

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
10-09-2001, 07:04 AM
Perhaps everyone has misunderstood what is meant by flipping the blades Back?....has anyone thought about that?

reneritchie
10-09-2001, 04:01 PM
Hi Roy,

Sure. There are a few well respected sifu that do flip their knives and, IMHO, that needs to be factored into any responsible thinking on the topic. I see the historic and functional questions on this as two separate, if related, issues. That the seniors in Sum Nung, Pao Fa Lien, Jee Shim, Gulao, and many in Yip Man and other lineages relate that there is no flipping in their knives (and recommend against it in general), IMHO, gives us some insight into the historical context. Functional, on the other hand, comes down to the individual practitioner and whether or not they can make them work (either they can or they can't, there's no real question).

May I turn the question around and ask if you've considered the alternative?

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
10-09-2001, 07:23 PM
As I said, perhaps the meaning of flipped needs to be clarified. There are definitely certain flips (for fear of revealing too much) that are not to be done in the Bat Jaam Dao. However the flip of the Sword to the elbow seems to be relevant.
By the way, everytime I do the form I have considered the alternative, as that is the way the form is choreographed. Not all moves have the Sword flipped on the elbow.

reneritchie
10-09-2001, 07:44 PM
I agree with you on the functional. If you flip and can make it work, who can argue? The flip of the southern butterfly knife is found in other southern systems. However, there are many movements found in other systems which might be functional and yet are not found in WCK (for example, the typical "Tornado style" southern butterfly sets is full of patterns not found in most WCK).

When you write that you consider it because of the choreography, do you mean there is a flip in the choreography of the set you do?

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
10-10-2001, 08:38 AM
Don't play Coy with me. You know very well what I mean, and your undercurrent of questioning authenticity does not go unnoticed.

The response was to your comment about considering the alternative. If you need it clarified then I will oblige you. Not all movements of the Bat Jaam Dao form are done with this flipped Sword. Which by the way is not a flip towards yourself.

[This message was edited by Roy D. Anthony on 10-10-01 at 11:48 PM.]

reneritchie
10-10-2001, 04:05 PM
While it's amusing that you imagine offense where none is offered and yet offer it where none is warrented, I'm not interested at all in posturing or personality discussion. If you're really sincere in conversing on this topic, I'm happy to continue it with you. If not, I'm happy to continue it with others who are sincere.

Now, what I'm trying to do is not make assumptions but rather establish a base reference for the point you're attempting to make. If you're working off the Sunny Tang or Moy Yat knife set, I'm familiar with the choreography, but would point out that outside the Yip Chun/Yip Ching/Moy Yat/Fung Hon/Lo Mak-Kam/etc. training group it (the flip) is not commonly found in the rest of the Yip Man system (please refer back to John D.'s post) and hence referencing choreography within the Yip Man system may not be that helpful (and would be authenticity neutral).

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
10-10-2001, 10:43 PM
Please do not offend my intelligence, it doesn't make you look good, especially hiding behind innocence.
Secondly I am well aware of what Sifu DeVirgilio stated. That is that there exists both methods, with and without flipping in the Yip Man System.
Therefore, both are authentic methods.

reneritchie
10-11-2001, 06:20 PM
I suppose that means you're not willing/able to continue the material discussion? No worries.

Anyone else have some thoughts to share on WCK knives?

Rgds,

RR

whippinghand
10-11-2001, 08:06 PM
knives or swords?

reneritchie
10-11-2001, 08:11 PM
If you know the Pao Fa Lien Scholar Sword set, I'd love to hear more about it. Otherwise, anything you care to share on the Yip Man Knives would be appreciated.

Rgds,

RR

whippinghand
10-11-2001, 08:37 PM
I am certain that it would not.

joy chaudhuri
10-11-2001, 09:20 PM
I have seen peoples do that! Others won't and they all are from Yip Man's lineages! So...Maybe there is an explanation.
IMO,I think that these moves were "cutted out!" when the knifes were adopted in the system.They were adapted to the wing chun principles.
I may be wrong on this but could some have learned their knifes outside of the system? It is said after all that very few completed the system with Yip Man!
I guest that some of you are well documented on this and could share some light?
-------------------------
Document? Very few documents in wc- at least in the
Yip Man era. IMO- Yip Man taught very very few people a whole do form. Most learned from each other. Nothing wrong with that. Several just got Wong Shong Leung to show them what he learned.One other of Yip Man's close students still alive
learned the entire do work completely from YipMan. There are
some differences here and there between those two versions.Learning the knives in some kf traditions was a final graduation acievement.
Cutting the umbilical cord in a way.
Those ideas cause a lot of differing opinions and dissensions that IMO serve no constructive purpose
to
rekindle.Neither Won Shon Leung or Ho Kam Ming flipped their knives but words can have different meanings for folks. Thus there is the huen do
circling cuts but they are not flips in my usage of the term. Anyway without learning wing chun well in the first place and understanding one's hands-learning the do well becomes problematic.
I have to dust off my old jong.
With the spirit of old jong-C'est la vie



:confused: :D

Sai Lo Jai
10-11-2001, 09:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you're working off the Sunny Tang or Moy Yat knife set, I'm familiar with the choreography [/quote]

You have mentioned my sifu more than a few times in the past in this forum and in others. You have traveled all over the world looking for answers to your questions regarding Ving Tsun. You also wrote a book that included a chapter on my sigung.

However, I've always wondered why you never spent any real time in New York with my sifu? Not only was he also acquainted with your sigung personally, Moy Yat lived only a day's car ride from you.

Although my question sounds provocative, I do not mean it as such. It sometimes becomes a quandry to convey sincerity through a quickly written post. I am just being curious.

BTW, you may not remember me. This may help you place a face with my name: When you won a copy of your own book in a raffle at a seminar a few years ago, I am the one who traded you for the book with a picture of the 4 Grand Masters.

<A HREF="http://www.moyyat.com" TARGET=_blank>
<img src="http://www.moyyat.com/images/flower-small.gif" border=0 width=69 height=63 alt="In Loving Memory"></A>

reneritchie
10-11-2001, 09:21 PM
Certainly wrong, but that's your right.

Anyone else?

Rgds,

RR

reneritchie
10-11-2001, 09:32 PM
I do remember you from Ohio, but I thought I traded for a different book? (With one of your sihingdai on the cover? Or is that the same book?)

I understand the problem with quick posts on message boards. I'll catch up with you via email.

Rgds,

RR

whippinghand
10-11-2001, 10:18 PM
I can not comment on the Yip Man knives, but I CAN comment on the Yip Man swords.

reneritchie
10-11-2001, 10:49 PM
I tend to call them knives because they're single-edged, whereas sword can be confused with the double-edged Gim/Jian and since, in a WCK forum, I don't really worry about people confusing Yan Mao, Lao Yip, Dan, Ma Jam, Kwan, or other kinds of single-edges blades with the Wu Dip Seung style we use. I apologize for derailing the topic with semantics, however, and am still interested in the discussion, whether you want to call them swords, knives, cleavers, thingamagigees (my personal fave), or whatever.

Rgds,

RR

Sai Lo Jai
10-12-2001, 01:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I do remember you from Ohio, but I thought I traded for a different book? (With one of your sihingdai on the cover? Or is that the same book?) [/quote]

I suppose I could have the items mixed. In an incredible streak of good luck, more than half of the tickets I purchased were winners. After winning a third prize, I gave away all of my remaining tickets to various people. Anyway, I don't recall if I traded you for your book with another book - I just remember the picture.

I actually owned the original of that picture (the cowboys) so I'm pretty sure I traded the print for your book. Sadly, after original picture sat in my sifu's office for awhile, it sprouted legs and walked away.

If memory serves, the only books of my sihings that have actual pictures of people on the cover would be "Wing Chun Kung Fu" by Greco Wong, "The Pah Cham Do of Wing Chun" by Dunn Wah, and "Mental Techniques" by Miguel Hernandez. The former two are long out of print and are very rare, so I doubt it was those ;). I could be quite wrong, but I don't recall the latter book being part of my bounty.

One of the other items I won was a portrait of Yip Man made from leather. Along the same sense of irony of you winning your own book, there is an interesting story behind that piece. If you do decide to accept the invitation the Moy family extended to you for the event in December, remind me about it.

I await your email.

<A HREF="http://www.moyyat.com" TARGET=_blank>
<img src="http://www.moyyat.com/images/flower-small.gif" border=0 width=69 height=63 alt="In Loving Memory"></A>

reneritchie
10-12-2001, 01:57 AM
Hmm, I lucked out and left with both a copy of the "cowboys" print and a copy of Hernandez sifu's book, so now I'm not cetain either. But please rest assured, both are much appreciated! 8)

I remember the print in leather as well. I'm sure we'll meet up eventually and I look forward to the story.

(I sent the email to your webmaster address several hours ago, so hopefully you've received it).

Rgds,

RR

Roy D. Anthony
10-12-2001, 07:31 AM
The butterfly Knives as was referred to in the original post, are a Filipino weapon called balisong.
I have never read or heard the Bat Jaam Dao being referred to as knives till I arrived here on this forum.
If the reason for calling them knives is because of the Pao Fa Lin being double sided, (Double sided are always called Gim). I think it is quite a weak precedent to start calling the Bat Jaam Dao- Knives.

reneritchie
10-12-2001, 01:55 PM
Perhaps we have a misunderstanding then because I've almost never seen them referred to as "swords" until arriving here. If you do a quick look around the net:

Moy Yat's Website - 6. Bot Jom Dao (Eight Chop Knives)
David Peterson's (Wong Shun-Leung) Website - 'Baat Jaam Do' - the "eight slash knife" form.
Ken Chung's (Leung Sheung) BAWC WEbsite - Knife Set
Augustine Fong's (Ho Kam-Ming) Website - Bat jaam do = eight slash knives

If you have a chance to look around, I think you'll fair near trip over the use of the term 'knife', the precedent being so long ago established. (And, FWIW, in the original post, its fairly evident they're *not* referring to balisong. LOL!)

In any case, it's a shame to be dragged back into semantics and, IMHO, does little to further the thread. You want to call them 'swords', more power to you.

Rgds,

RR

Sihing73
10-12-2001, 03:08 PM
Hello,

I would like to make a clarification as regards the use of the term "Butterfly Knives" when refering to the Balisong. This is a term whihc came about from people outside of the Fillipino systems who likened the opening of the knife to the spreading of the wings of a butterfly. Much like Kung Fu, which really does not mean martial arts ;) became a catch phrase for most Chinese Styles of Martial Arts. It has become quite popular, particularily with Law Enforcement as a catch phrase to cover most of the knife types which flip outwards from a double handle. Most resellers now use the term to reference any knife with a double handle which flips outward exposing the blade.

I don't see how the original post could be thought to refer to the balisong. It seemed pretty clear that this was referring to the Chinese knives and even referenced Hung Gar which is certainly not a Fillipino system.

I have also heard the term "Knife" used the majority of time when referring to the weapon in Wing Chun. Although, unless I am mistaken, Sunny Tang and William Cheung both refer to them as "Swords".

I will defer to someone more knowledgable of Chinese Language to point out the difference between a knife and a sword. I am not sure if it is length or the manner in which the blade is used.

However, since both Roy and WH seem to like the term "sword" rather than "knife" perhaps they would like to share the differentiation between the two and how their use would differ.

Peace,

Dave

kj
10-12-2001, 03:14 PM
Coincidentally, I just happened to page through the latest issue of "Inside Kungfu" and noticed an article by Douglas Wong titled "Chinese Weapons You Need to Learn." There is a photo on page 92 with examples of 11 common weapons, referred to as follows: 4 types of "broadswords," 3 types of "swords," 2 rattan shields, a "horse cutter" (yikes - does that ever bring an image to mind :eek:), and 1 example of "butterfly knives."

According to my handy-dandy-translator, the character for "do" translates to knife, and can also apply to some curved-edged swords. It can also refer to other knife shaped objects, or a unit of 100 sheets of paper. :D

"Knives" does seem to be the most prevalent translation and term applied to the types cutting weapons commonly used in Wing Chun, in either of the 2 typical shape variations.

Regards,
- kj

reneritchie
10-12-2001, 04:14 PM
Typically, a Do (Dao) is a single-edged blade. The length of blade and handle do not seem to be determining factors as everthing from the (relatively) short Wu Dip Seung Do (Butterfly Double Knives) to the long Kwan Do (General Kwan's Knife, roughly like a halbard) are all termed Do. By contrast, a Gim (Jian) is typically a double-edged blade, and comes in scholar, warrior, two-handed, and other types.

'Knife' does appear to be the common translation (even in historical texts), due to the myriad different types, you can also see 'saber' used, eg. Lao Yip Do/Liu Ye Dao/Willow Leaf Saber, 'cutlass', eg. Dan Do/Dan Dao/Single Cutlass, 'halbard', 'chopper', etc. Unfortunately, not all linguistic ideas mesh completely. Again, however, being on a WCK forum, I'd think the context would be clear in any event.

Thanks for the info on the balisong.

Rgds,

RR

joy chaudhuri
10-12-2001, 05:43 PM
There are varieties of short weapons in the Southern Arts. Some have been called Butterfly Knives without any connection to balisong.Some even have a butterfly stamped on each blade. Bot Jam
Do is a fairly distinctive Yip man usage and there are some differences in details between the common butterfly knives and the preferred Yip Man usage.Generally bot jam do comes out as eight way chopping knives though there can me some small variances in translations and of course meanings.Roy< I wrote an article on the do in Inside Kung Fu's first special issue on Wing Chun.Oncidentally, I have a coauthored article
on some key aspects of wing chun in the Nov/Dec issue of Kungfu-qigong
which just hit the stands. Regards Joy Chaudhuri.

John D
10-14-2001, 12:22 PM
I often refer to the WC "Do" as Knives, but I agree that it would be better to call the WC "Do" as Broadswords.

Hi Joy C. it has been a while since we had a chat! How many sections does grand elder Ho Kam Ming have in his WC Do system?


Rene,
Are you aware of the Hong Kong newspaper articles that master Yeun Kay Shan wrote back in the early/mid 1960's?

Another "Do" oddity that has always bothered me is why the late Yip Man used the name "Bat Chum Do" for his Broadsword system. His system(s), whether it be the eight or twelve sectioned versions, have more than eight distingtive actions. I practice a 12 section Do version and can attest that there are more than eight techniques. Any thoughts about the number "Bat (8)"......????

Regards,
John D.

reneritchie
10-14-2001, 03:39 PM
It's probably hard to find any "perfect" translation. Broadsword also brings up images of medival blades very different from WCK.

WRT Yuen Kay-San articles, my sijo passed away in 1956, so probably could not have written any articles himself. There are some from New Martial Hero and Real Kung-Fu written by my sibakuk (students of Sum Nung), including Leung Dai-Chiu, Kwok Wan-Ping, and Lee Chi-Yiu. I have translations of several of these up at http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/ in the Readings section. Since the 80s, Wulin and Wuhon have published numerous articles as well, chiefly from Yuen Jo-Tong, my sijo's grandson.

That's an interesting question (re: 8). In Sum Nung's system, they're referred to as Yee Jee Kim Yeung Dit Ming Do while in Gulao, Yee Jee Yum Yeung Dit Ming Do, and Jee Shim, Fu Mo Seung Do. Many simply call them Yee Jee Do or Seung Do now. The two most common explinations I've heard on Baat Jaam are 8 sections or 8 concepts, though many have more or less than 8 sections or concepts, it seems.

Rgds,

RR

joy chaudhuri
10-14-2001, 07:17 PM
"Hi Joy C. it has been a while since we had a chat! How many sections does grand elder Ho Kam Ming have in his WC Do system?"----
---------------------------------------------
Hi John: Good to hear from you and to see your posts.I will send you an email later and mention somethings here hopefully without stirring the pot. Many old time masters guarded
their knowledge for several reasons including
readiness of the right student, to minimize stealing by others, for livelihood as well as pride in their creations. Yip Man IMO was an
excellent example of this. Though it has created
many different versions of wing chun being passed down,i can't say that I blame him.The term bot jam do is not related to the number of moves with the knives.Other styles had other names for the double knives and some preferences in shapes. The name is unique to Yip Man's usage of the knives.Many of Yip Man's students got/saw/learned some moves of the do and also learned from each other and also did some reverse engineering as people still do.Very few learned the whole do usage directly from Yip Man IMO((I know I know, I was not there- so it isnt documentary history- but my analysis and judgement).
Ho Kam Ming was taught a whole form. Wong Shon Leung was also learning the do. There are some small differnces between the two versions.
Some folks learned the form from WSL. Ho Kam Ming
and his students guarded the HKM version till one
student for money taught the form to several others on the west coast.I do not think that HKM
knew about it at the time. Pretty murky waters.
No pot stirring intended.
That's about it for now.

kevin_vt
02-17-2009, 11:36 AM
Hi John. I have only seen Leung Sheung's knife set a few times (performed by his students), and apologize that it was not frequent enough for me to reliably recount the sections. I see that David Williams is on the forum now, so I will defer to him for detail on the choreography. The set is short and clean compared to most more modern variations I've seen.
Very interesting. Could you clarify a bit?

LoneTiger108
02-17-2009, 12:05 PM
Been reading over a few posts and must say that it was great to see some familiar names writing here in 2001! :eek:

Looks like the exchange was far more calm and creative than the crazy battles I've seen on here over the last year. I can only hope discussions like this are continnued...

Vajramusti
02-17-2009, 02:08 PM
You are really digging old stuff out!!

joy chaudhuri

Shadow_warrior8
02-17-2009, 11:59 PM
Mainland China Dao section names, methods and forms

The 8 Knives Methods(all of it is found in wingchun empty hand techniques)
米氏八种刀法
斩、切、耕刀、拦刀、摊刀、十字刀、膀刀、 护刀、偷漏

Guangzhou Traditional Wingchun, 8 Chopping Demon King Knife(hows that for fancy names)
The sections are:
广州传统咏春拳"的"八斩鬼王刀"是:
一刀点米,二刀刹鸡,三刀斩鬼,四刀劈贼王。
五刀防骗,六刀拦假,七刀切手掌,八刀穿肛门"。

Whats interesting is, they all have all 8 knife methods, 8 sections.

So Yip Man called it Batt Cham Dao, 8 chopping knives for a reason- 8 concepts, 8 sections, as he learnt it.

kevin_vt
02-18-2009, 01:47 AM
Mainland China Dao section names, methods and forms

The 8 Knives Methods(all of it is found in wingchun empty hand techniques)
米氏八种刀法
斩、切、耕刀、拦刀、摊刀、十字刀、膀刀、 护刀、偷漏

Guangzhou Traditional Wingchun, 8 Chopping Demon King Knife(hows that for fancy names)
The sections are:
广州传统咏春拳"的"八斩鬼王刀"是:
一刀点米,二刀刹鸡,三刀斩鬼,四刀劈贼王。
五刀防骗,六刀拦假,七刀切手掌,八刀穿肛门"。

Whats interesting is, they all have all 8 knife methods, 8 sections.

So Yip Man called it Batt Cham Dao, 8 chopping knives for a reason- 8 concepts, 8 sections, as he learnt it.

Can you put it in English(movements, sections) i.e Bong Dao, Tan Dao etc. as what your have posted is unreadable.
Thank you

Paul T England
02-18-2009, 02:32 AM
Some good info guys. Great to hear from people who have compared different students of Ip Man.

Just to add my thoughts.

Lun Gai, Foshan Ip Man student does not flip.

Personally I think its just training....if you practice enough you will start coming up with your own methods.

I also think the older the set, whether its hung gar, wing chun or CLF, the less flowery moves you will see.

Saying that its not such a bad thing. In Doce Pares Eskrima they develop great skill in twirlling and switiching the sticks and as far as I can tell it does help with skill development.

As its near the end oif the set, maybe its like the dummy in that its a personal signature. I don't have a problem. I learnt the Ip Chun method first and like the flipping, but would never want to use it.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

CFT
02-18-2009, 03:30 AM
米氏八种刀法
斩、切、耕刀、拦刀、摊刀、十字刀、膀刀、 护刀、偷漏Mai family (Mai Gei Wong?) 8 Knife methods
Jaam (chop), chit (cut), gaan (cultivate), laan (barring). tan (disperse), sup jee (ten character/cross), bong, wu (protecting), tau lau (stealing leaking).


Guangzhou Traditional Wingchun, 8 Chopping Demon King Knife(hows that for fancy names)
The sections are:
广州传统咏春拳"的"八斩鬼王刀"是:
一刀点米,二刀刹鸡,三刀斩鬼,四刀劈贼王。
五刀防骗,六刀拦假,七刀切手掌,八刀穿肛门"This set seems like a joke (to me).

In traditional characters:
一刀點米,二刀剎雞,三刀斬鬼,四刀劈賊王。
五刀防騙,六刀攔假,七刀切手掌,八刀穿肛門。

1st knife points at rice, 2nd knife controls (I think this should be the character for kill) the chicken, 3rd knife cuts the ghost, 4th knife cleaves the bandit king, 5th knife guards against deception, 6th knife blocks falsehood, 7th knife cuts hands/palms, 8th knife pierces the anus (ooo-er!).

kevin_vt
02-18-2009, 05:28 AM
Let's get to the point:

Tsui Sheung Tin

The sections:

1. Sam Tan Pak Dao - Huen Dao
2. Sam Bong Wu Dao - Huen Dao
3. Sam Gan Sam Gwok Mah Juen- 3 Forward Steps with shifting
4. Sam Seung Yee Jee Dao/Wu Sam Gwok Mah - 3 Retreating Steps
5. Jam Dao
6. Biu Dao
7. Gan Dao Bik Mah
8. Fak Dao Seung Mah

The form:

http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/Butterfly%20Knives..wmv

Wong Shun Leung

These eight basic techniques:

1. Qi-Stabbing
2. Jam-Chopping
3. Gan-Block and cut
4. Kwan-Double block
5. Bon-Deflection
6. Biu-Line deflection forward
7. Jaam-Stopping
8. Tan and Qi-Deflect out and stab

The sections:

Section One: Jum-Tse-Tan-Cham
Section Two: Gaun - Lan Kwan Do
Section Three: Jum Do & Chi Do - Gaun Do
Section Four: Jum Do & Chi Do - Naung Cham Do - Gaun Do
- - - - - - Intermediate Skills - - - - - -
Section Five: Bong Do
Section Six: Ding Do - Yat Ji Do
Section Seven: Biu Do
Section Eight: Gaun Do & Jut Tse Do
- - - - - - Advanced Skills - - - - - -
Section Nine: Cham Wund Do - Heun Do
Section Ten: Jum, Lan Kawn, Heun Do - Yat Ji Do
Section Eleven: Chi, Jut, Tan Do
Section Twelve: Gwun Do - Gaun Do
Section Thirteen: Mun, Jum Do

The form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2FIkEjoIs

Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Duncan Leung etc. lineages welcome :)

chusauli
02-18-2009, 10:55 AM
This set seems like a joke (to me).

In traditional characters:
一刀點米,二刀剎雞,三刀斬鬼,四刀劈賊王。
五刀防騙,六刀攔假,七刀切手掌,八刀穿肛門。

1st knife points at rice, 2nd knife controls (I think this should be the character for kill) the chicken, 3rd knife cuts the ghost, 4th knife cleaves the bandit king, 5th knife guards against deception, 6th knife blocks falsehood, 7th knife cuts hands/palms, 8th knife pierces the anus (ooo-er!).

Sounds like a joke to me also.

LoneTiger108
02-18-2009, 12:41 PM
You are really digging old stuff out!!

joy chaudhuri

It wasn't me Joy?! :confused: It was kevin_vt


Let's get to the point:

Tsui Sheung Tin

The sections:

1. Sam Tan Pak Dao - Huen Dao
2. Sam Bong Wu Dao - Huen Dao
3. Sam Gan Sam Gwok Mah Juen- 3 Forward Steps with shifting
4. Sam Seung Yee Jee Dao/Wu Sam Gwok Mah - 3 Retreating Steps
5. Jam Dao
6. Biu Dao
7. Gan Dao Bik Mah
8. Fak Dao Seung Mah

The form:

http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/Butterfly%20Knives..wmv

Wong Shun Leung

These eight basic techniques:

1. Qi-Stabbing
2. Jam-Chopping
3. Gan-Block and cut
4. Kwan-Double block
5. Bon-Deflection
6. Biu-Line deflection forward
7. Jaam-Stopping
8. Tan and Qi-Deflect out and stab

The sections:

Section One: Jum-Tse-Tan-Cham
Section Two: Gaun - Lan Kwan Do
Section Three: Jum Do & Chi Do - Gaun Do
Section Four: Jum Do & Chi Do - Naung Cham Do - Gaun Do
- - - - - - Intermediate Skills - - - - - -
Section Five: Bong Do
Section Six: Ding Do - Yat Ji Do
Section Seven: Biu Do
Section Eight: Gaun Do & Jut Tse Do
- - - - - - Advanced Skills - - - - - -
Section Nine: Cham Wund Do - Heun Do
Section Ten: Jum, Lan Kawn, Heun Do - Yat Ji Do
Section Eleven: Chi, Jut, Tan Do
Section Twelve: Gwun Do - Gaun Do
Section Thirteen: Mun, Jum Do

The form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2FIkEjoIs

Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Duncan Leung etc. lineages welcome

Great stuff here Kevin. Thanks for sharing. Out of a sincere interest, where did you receive this information?

Has anyone else got anything to add?

kevin_vt
02-18-2009, 02:18 PM
Bart Cham Dao - Wang Kui lineage:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...67219065229747

Still waiting for Lok Yui, Leung Sheung, Duncan Leung lineages...:)

Shadow_warrior8
02-19-2009, 04:06 AM
Sounds like a joke to me also.

yeah it sounds a bit funny huh?

But this was sent to me by an old master, check out his credentials, its no joke. He has trained in so many lineages, some not even known in the west, he now calls his art, Yang Style Wingchun- Traditional Yuen Kay San Lineage.

杨式咏春拳,是杨文锋师傅,年青时曾学习过多家“传统咏春拳”后,综合整理而成,杨师傅今年大约五十二岁, 现在广州,欧洲,美洲公开传播,宏扬传统咏春拳技,徒弟,学生遍布全球!
杨师傅在一九七二年清远与花县之间的农场里,(在广东北江附近农场)跟随一个下放劳动改造的懂旧式咏春的老 和尚,学习十二式和传统理论,是杨文锋师傅的第一个咏春拳启蒙师傅。
一九七五年经人介绍再跟花县赤坭镇(广州橡管厂,珠江汽车轮胎厂)的工人:黄锦强师傅学习传统咏春拳“小念 头,散手使用”等等,是杨师傅的第二个咏春拳启蒙师傅。
杨师傅在一九八0年,就跟过广州钢铁厂老工人,曹师傅的家中学习“古劳咏春”和“班中咏春拳” 技术。
杨文锋师傅在一九八二年,第一次与朋友叶镜财,高佬忠等人,跟黎钊华师傅学习十二式,小念头, 等实战运用。
杨文锋师傅在一九八五年,跟徐文政师傅家中和越秀公园中,学习咏春拳黏手,木人桩,咏春双刀,短棍,六点半 棍,等兵器实战理论。
杨文锋师傅在一九八九年,在流花公园中跟随“冯仲源师傅”学习“黄祯咏春拳”的“小稔头,寻桥,标指”,三 套路和变化应用技击,传统理论。
杨文锋师傅在一九九五年,第二次再次跟黎钊华师傅,在黎师傅家中学习咏春拳木人桩应用理论,黏手“不倒翁, 蜗牛触角”等理论研究。
在一九九七年春,杨师傅经过多位传统咏春拳大师傅的指导,武学成材后,有幸认识“岑能大宗”,经常在白云区 ,花都区内得到“岑能大宗师”的口述教学理论,实战经验,和江湖上恩怨事件等等。

Shadow_warrior8
02-19-2009, 04:39 AM
Sorry guys, I have alot of stuff, most of it in chinese, I stopped reading english articles on wingchun, alot are tales repeated since eons back. The chinese never stopped writing so how much could we have missed?
Its often hard to find the equvilent of chinese words, and in english often the description doesnt make sense. Any credible researcher will have to learn the native language or the older "lost" dialects to understand the manuscripts and context of the culture.
If you really want to know, I guess you would have to translate it bit by bit, the best of spoilts go to those who want it most. :D

Here are other names of Dao forms and their lineages,

八斩刀 or 二字刀 or 决命八斩刀- Yip man, batt cham dao, 2 word dao, fatal batt cham doa.
二字钳阳夺命刀- YKS, Sum Nung, Mai Gei Wong, 2 words goat clamping fatal doa
阴阳夺命刀- Kulo, Ying Yang fatal doa
人字刀- Yahu/Ban Chung- Man word doa

儿母刀- Hung Kuen
蝴蝶刀 - Hung Kuen
双叉刀 - Hung Kuen
蝴蝶双刀 - Hung Kuen

Liddel
02-19-2009, 04:25 PM
Still waiting for Lok Yui, Leung Sheung, Duncan Leung lineages...:)

I would say Lok Yui BJD would be vary rare IMO. My Sifu was his assistant for many years in the late 50's. Im told Sifu Lok was not interested in the BJD as he had an attraction to the LDB and was said to be very good FWIW.

My Sifu passed the BJD form to me but was taught it by his friend WSL.

We have NO reversed knives anywhere in the form...

If you actually spar with them youd understand its not a good idea support and timing wise. This is our opinion of course - each to thier own :)

DREW

kevin_vt
02-20-2009, 02:25 AM
I would say Lok Yui BJD would be vary rare IMO. My Sifu was his assistant for many years in the late 50's. Im told Sifu Lok was not interested in the BJD as he had an attraction to the LDB and was said to be very good FWIW.

My Sifu passed the BJD form to me but was taught it by his friend WSL.


Great post, thanks man


If you actually spar with them youd understand its not a good idea support and timing wise. I have experienced the same. This topic should focus more on the form itself and its ideas, not on flipping :) IMHO

couch
02-20-2009, 05:18 AM
The more I practice the BJD form and variant drills from it, the more I see the basic premise of WC's attack and defense to be the continual theme.

There is a lot of basic "Jum" and "Strike" combinations and variants on that theme throughout the form. This makes the most sense to me. I have some flipping of the knives but don't agree with it for practical reasons. I do however, after learning a little FMA, see how attribute training could be part of it all.

Just some ideas...great discussion.

kevin_vt
02-20-2009, 07:06 AM
All major movements of BJD are derived from the hand positions - tan, bong, kwun, gan etc.

However there is one strange movement.

Here is the picture taken from Sifu Duncan Leung's page:

http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/knives1b.jpg

I think it is called Yat Jee Dao(?) and sometimes described as PoPai with the knives.

But PoPai from the dummy is a push. This one looks strange, unfamiliar, even not efficient.

Could someone explain?

hunt1
02-20-2009, 07:20 AM
It is a a move to cover a wide area as you move in. If you have sparred full with sticks or knives you know that at speed you can not block only cover an area as you move into or out of an area. With out knives it is called shield hands. It actually works well based on my sparring with FMA types.

Ultimatewingchun
02-20-2009, 07:29 AM
Not a strange move at all, Kevin.

It's kan do, the equivalent of kan sao in empty hand (and there are many sword moves that can be interchanged with empty hand).

I use/teach this move in empty hand all the time against low round punches to the body: the bottom hand blocks, the upper hand strikes.

kevin_vt
02-20-2009, 08:16 AM
Thank you Victor!

I may sound a bit silly but where is Kan Sao in empty-hand forms?

It is NOT Tan/Bong combo(Kwun Sao) right?

Ok here is my idea.

If the form is called eight slashing knives there must be a reason.

Like in the pole we have 7 techniques, one of them known as half.

So with the other weapon it should be the same.

What are the names of these eight movements/sections/concepts?

Why the form is called like that?

Any sifus, advanced students welcome to share knowledge.

kevin_vt
02-20-2009, 10:26 AM
I found it. It is kau sao but apparently in master Cheung's version it is called kan sao. Really helped me, cheers.

chusauli
02-20-2009, 11:12 AM
Gentlemen,

Duncan Leung's picture shows a variation of Gaun Dao (Like the empty hand Gaun Sao in Biu Jee set)...Yat Ji Dao is more of a vertical movement, more akin to Huen or a variation is Low Bong Dao.

The pole actually has more than 7 motions...the training of the pole is more involved than the set. For example, if you do Biu Lung Cheung, Dang Gwun and Tiu Gwun, you can combine this in many ways:

1) BLC, then Dang/Tiu
2) Dang/Tiu then BLC
3) Dang - BLC - Tiu
4) Tiu - BLC - Dang
5) Step forward BLC, then Dang/Tiu
6) Step back BLC, then Dang/Tiu
7) Step Right BLC, then Dang/Tiu
8) Step Left BLC, then Dang/Tiu
9) Step forward, Dang/Tiu, then BLC...

As you can see, you have much, much more. This is the proper way to drill the pole. There are also many Lien Gung exercises with the pole.

In the early days, Yip Man gave students a choice to learn the pole or the knives. Lok Yiu may not have learned the knives, and others may have learned a knives form, and not the pole set. Ho Luen, for example, did not learn the knives, but he certainly knew the pole.

Yip Man also did a lot of knife and pole teaching with chopsticks at the dim sum table, so it is no wonder many have variations. Moy Yat stated in his book that he learned at a restaurant the pole set with chopsticks.

Just my $0.02.

couch
02-20-2009, 12:01 PM
Yip Man also did a lot of knife and pole teaching with chopsticks at the dim sum table, so it is no wonder many have variations. Moy Yat stated in his book that he learned at a restaurant the pole set with chopsticks.

Just my $0.02.

I think we all just have to be honest about what we have. I have the Moy Yat version of the pole, but the swords passed down through different people is to be debated as whether it is even close to the Moy Yat version. So I do my own thing based on this knowledge, the Yip Chun version and meeting with others. The more I practice the WC empty hand forms, study Escrima and work the BJD...the more it all makes sense.

No wonder people have variations is right! It's also no wonder that people have turned to FMA to fill in gaps (me included) in the weapons portion of the system. It just seems like people were just 'passing on the forms' instead of teaching application and fighting with this stuff.

Good sharing everyone. Great discussion.

kevin_vt
02-20-2009, 12:14 PM
I am sorry but I do not agree:

Duncan Leung's picture shows a variation of Gaun Dao (Like the empty hand Gaun Sao in Biu Jee set)...
Does not look like so. In Gan Sao the edges of hands face out, not inwards.

Yat Ji Dao is more of a vertical movement,
There is no vertical position in Wing Chun. The idea is to use angles to deflect power.

The pole actually has more than 7 motions...
The key motions are exactly seven, but the last is considered as a half one

It just seems like people were just 'passing on the forms' instead of teaching application and fighting with this stuff.
Well said, coach!

Liddel
02-20-2009, 06:15 PM
All major movements of BJD are derived from the hand positions - tan, bong, kwun, gan etc.

However there is one strange movement.

I think it is called Yat Jee Dao(?) and sometimes described as PoPai with the knives.

But PoPai from the dummy is a push. This one looks strange, unfamiliar, even not efficient.

Could someone explain?

We call it Yat Jee Do, and i agree with hunt1


It is a a move to cover a wide area as you move...EDIT

I took the word IN off the end of the quote as i use it moving foward and back but each to thier own.

Good Pole users can make the tip of the pole shake as a method of delivering power from the hands to the tip (a type of pole inch power if you will).

I used to practice Dan Kwan with a ribbon on the end of the pole so as to see the movement in the tip more obvious...with the right force it would travel out the tip down the ribbon making it ripple.

This coupled with the fact the pole is fast and covers more space width and length wise - Yat Jee do - for us is used to cover several gates at once while in movement.

IME YJD relies on good turning of the horse and wirsts for enough DO power for blocking.

In terms of the picture posted im in a lower stance with the lead leg c o c k e d back, toes only touching the ground.
Its a stance i dont see others use in thier BJD form but is quite common amoungst different lineages LDB forms....


Duncan Leung's picture shows a variation of Gaun Dao (Like the empty hand Gaun Sao in Biu Jee set)...

Guarn Do IMO is less round in applied action, the Do travels straight out from the pose to intercept position therefore covering a smaller area.

YJD by design covers more space as it 'sweeps' from zero to 40 - 45 degrees...in the form - from center Jum DO. (if the rest of our form is same/similar)

Its much more difficult to use 'trapping the spear' actions from YJD position because of the emphasised rounder movement than Guarn Do which is why in almost everyones forms 'traping the spear' comes after Guarn Do...its a game of inches LOL

DREW

punchdrunk
02-20-2009, 06:24 PM
in the version of bjd i was taught i have a move that was very similar to the one in the Duncan Leung pic, for me it was not like a gan sao but more like po pai and i took it to be using thae guards not the blades. I don't think there was an "official version" of the form, instead it was a work in progress that still evolves much like all the other forms.

chusauli
02-21-2009, 10:25 AM
I am sorry but I do not agree:

Does not look like so. In Gan Sao the edges of hands face out, not inwards.

There is no vertical position in Wing Chun. The idea is to use angles to deflect power.

The key motions are exactly seven, but the last is considered as a half one



Kevin,

The Yat Ji Dao looks like an almost vertical version of the chinese character Yat (one) - I think you misunderstand me.

Maybe the picture was of a younger Duncan Leung working things out. He certainly knows his knives, and as I know, his set is the same as Ho Kam Ming, Hawkins Cheung and Alan Lee. This quartet learned a different set than Koo Sang, Leung Ting, Moy Yat, Yip Chun, Yip Ching. And it is different than Tsui Sheung Tien, Wong Shun Leung, or Wang Kiu.

Key motions of the pole as seven - what do you consider them as?

For me it is Tai, Lan, Dim, Kit, Got, Wun, Lou.

Phil Redmond
02-21-2009, 11:28 AM
All major movements of BJD are derived from the hand positions - tan, bong, kwun, gan etc.

However there is one strange movement.

Here is the picture taken from Sifu Duncan Leung's page:

http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/knives1b.jpg

I think it is called Yat Jee Dao(?) and sometimes described as PoPai with the knives.

But PoPai from the dummy is a push. This one looks strange, unfamiliar, even not efficient.

Could someone explain?

It's actually a gan do which is sometimes spelled kan do. As to it's efficiency it's the same as the double gan sao used across most WC lines. I can make a video to show how it's used. You also said that the Do has no vertical position. There is a lan do which is like is a vertical version of the double horizontal lan sao is snt/slt. I have learned to stay away from saying what is or is not in WC since none of us have the whole picture. ;)

chusauli
02-21-2009, 11:35 AM
It's actually a gan do which is sometimes spelled kan do. As to it's efficiency it's the same as the double gan sao used across most WC lines. I can make a video at to how it's used. You also said that the Do has no vertical position. There is a lan do which is like is a vertical version of the double horizontal lan sao is snt/slt. I have learned to stay away from saying what is or is not in WC since none of us have the whole picture. ;)

Hi Phil! Yes, TWC's Lan Do = Yat Ji Dao. And I still remember the form when we were taught it so many years ago! :)

Many thanks for your input!

Phil Redmond
02-21-2009, 11:40 AM
. . . I have learned to stay away from saying what is or is not in WC since none of us have the whole picture. ;)

Let me clarify that statement. "I" don't have the whole picture. If someone does it would be great to share. ;)

Phil Redmond
02-21-2009, 11:42 AM
Hi Phil! Yes, TWC's Lan Do = Yat Ji Dao. And I still remember the form when we were taught it so many years ago! :)

Many thanks for your input!
NP, I get great insights from you all the time.

kevin_vt
02-21-2009, 12:26 PM
Kevin,

The Yat Ji Dao looks like an almost vertical version of the chinese character Yat (one) - I think you misunderstand me.

Yes :)


Maybe the picture was of a younger Duncan Leung working things out. He certainly knows his knives, and as I know, his set is the same as Ho Kam Ming, Hawkins Cheung and Alan Lee. This quartet learned a different set than Koo Sang, Leung Ting, Moy Yat, Yip Chun, Yip Ching. And it is different than Tsui Sheung Tien, Wong Shun Leung, or Wang Kiu.

Very interesting. Can you list the sections of every BJD form of the above masters. Or even post video links?


For me it is Tai, Lan, Dim, Kit, Got, Wun, Lou.
How are they related to empty hand movements?(biu, fook etc.)

Thank you

Phil Redmond
02-21-2009, 04:51 PM
All major movements of BJD are derived from the hand positions - tan, bong, kwun, gan etc.

However there is one strange movement.

Here is the picture taken from Sifu Duncan Leung's page:

http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/knives1b.jpg

I think it is called Yat Jee Dao(?) and sometimes described as PoPai with the knives.

But PoPai from the dummy is a push. This one looks strange, unfamiliar, even not efficient.

Could someone explain?

Here's something I threw together regarding the Gan Do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXrckpDoU8U&feature=channel_page
I can show you somes apps when I get back up North.

kevin_vt
02-22-2009, 12:11 PM
in the version of bjd i was taught i have a move that was very similar to the one in the Duncan Leung pic, for me it was not like a gan sao but more like po pai and i took it to be using thae guards not the blades. I don't think there was an "official version" of the form, instead it was a work in progress that still evolves much like all the other forms.
My understanding is the same

chusauli
02-23-2009, 12:02 PM
Yes :)


Very interesting. Can you list the sections of every BJD form of the above masters. Or even post video links?


How are they related to empty hand movements?(biu, fook etc.)



Thank you

Just a bit:

Hawkins Cheung, Ho Kam Ming, etc.

Hoi Jong
Jing Gerk
Ha Sup Ji Dao - Sheung Sup Ji Dao - Jum Dao
Chit Dao 4X - Chi (Biu) Dao 4X - Jum Dao

Koo Sang, Moy Yat, Yip Brothers:

Hoi Jong - Yau Wang Gerk (can vary front kick)
Jum Dao
Chit Dao 4X - Jum Dao - Repeat Opposite
Jip Dao, Sheung Ma Huen Jaam, Tun Hou Tor Dao 3X - Jum Dao - Repeat Opposite

No video links.

As for the pole:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_weapons.html

kevin_vt
02-23-2009, 12:20 PM
Just a bit:

Hawkins Cheung, Ho Kam Ming, etc.

Hoi Jong
Jing Gerk
Ha Sup Ji Dao - Sheung Sup Ji Dao - Jum Dao
Chit Dao 4X - Chi (Biu) Dao 4X - Jum Dao

Koo Sang, Moy Yat, Yip Brothers:

Hoi Jong - Yau Wang Gerk (can vary front kick)
Jum Dao
Chit Dao 4X - Jum Dao - Repeat Opposite
Jip Dao, Sheung Ma Huen Jaam, Tun Hou Tor Dao 3X - Jum Dao - Repeat Opposite

No video links.

As for the pole:

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_weapons.html

Thank you Robert this is awesome!

I would appreciate if it is not " just a bit" :) unless you consider it as "top secret" :)

Others please share experience. I will dig some great stuff and will post it here as well

LoneTiger108
02-23-2009, 12:35 PM
Can you list the sections of every BJD form of the above masters. Or even post video links?

One clip I found on Youtube a while ago is of Ip Chun performing the BJD form, and although a very bad video copy it does tend to show eight distinct sections including the so-called flipping of the blade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE&feature=channel_page

Another good clip was this one imo, of Wong Kee Man. Just a different take of intent but quite well demonstrated. Clear and simple imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31SSrqwyPv0&feature=channel_page

On the flipping tip, I'm from Lee Shing family and we do use it.

Similar to the pole imo, a great piece to collect if you're lucky enough to find a Sifu who teaches it. More suited to Wing Chun as a whole as it was there before the pole was 'inherited' (from what I've researched)

punchdrunk
02-23-2009, 01:04 PM
I can't remember the publication but i remember a few years back reading an interview with Augustine Fong. If i remember correctly he was asked about differences between his forms (snt, ck , Bj) and others. I enjoyed it because he admitted to doing the changes himself and then gave some of the reasons. He also talked about the weapons forms and said they were taught more in a drill or point like manner and that he choreographed his own forms with what he had learned. (if i am wrong i apologise like i said it was a few years back.) I appreciated his honesty and i beleive that Yip Man probably taught most people the pole and sword this way and they all choreographed and linked it together their own way, or worked together in a small group. Most of the schools teach drills for the pole first and then the "form" later. Maybe its the same with the knives?

If i am wrong and the article wasn't Augustine Fong I apologise and mean no insult, in fact i mean it as a compliment. I am not Fong lineage.

sanjuro_ronin
02-23-2009, 01:07 PM
I can't remember the publication but i remember a few years back reading an interview with Augustine Fong. If i remember correctly he was asked about differences between his forms (snt, ck , Bj) and others. I enjoyed it because he admitted to doing the changes himself and then gave some of the reasons. He also talked about the weapons forms and said they were taught more in a drill or point like manner and that he choreographed his own forms with what he had learned. (if i am wrong i apologise like i said it was a few years back.) I appreciated his honesty and i beleive that Yip Man probably taught most people the pole and sword this way and they all choreographed and linked it together their own way, or worked together in a small group. Most of the schools teach drills for the pole first and then the "form" later. Maybe its the same with the knives?

If i am wrong and the article wasn't Augustine Fong I apologise and mean no insult, in fact i mean it as a compliment. I am not Fong lineage.

I am not sure where people got the idea that you were NOT suppose to "play around" with the forms and make them "evolve".
One persons WC is not another persons.

punchdrunk
02-23-2009, 01:24 PM
100% correct but now it will be harder to sell the deadly secrets of the forbidden bui jee, or the closed door ba jam do! Oh well there's always the secret chi powers of sui nim tao!

Liddel
02-23-2009, 04:11 PM
I am not sure where people got the idea that you were NOT suppose to "play around" with the forms and make them "evolve".
One persons WC is not another persons.

There is a difference between someone who has experience and knowledge changing aspects for a particular purpose and someone changing them for aesthetics or to fill a gap of understanding....

The reality is many people didnt get one on one teaching with regards to the weapons.

My Sifu experienced alot of this in regards to the LDB. As sifu Lok's assitant many asked him to 'tweak' thier kwan forms and when he asked to see thier forms found many differences that had come from people copying others and not being taught by an assistant.

The BJD is no different.

DREW

chusauli
02-23-2009, 05:28 PM
After spending so many years searching for the real BJD set, I know there isn't one. They all have elements of truth, and they all have some made up elements.

Real WCK is formless, so insider, public, secret, original, flip, and non flip versions is all BS.

I liked things about WC, WSL's set(s), about Augustine's set, about the Koo Sang set, the LT set, and HC and HKM's sets, but there were also things I thought were lame. Some people clearly made stuff up, others were honest and admitted they didn't know it.

But you got to go out there and get the experience for yourself.

jooerduo
02-23-2009, 09:11 PM
[QUOTE=

Another good clip was this one imo, of Wong Kee Man. Just a different take of intent but quite well demonstrated. Clear and simple imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31SSrqwyPv0&feature=channel_page

QUOTE]


I notice this about a lot of bjd demonstrators - they tend to go close to slicing their own wrist at the gan dao section

thats dangerous, but not for their intended enemy

kevin_vt
02-23-2009, 11:45 PM
After spending so many years searching for the real BJD set, I know there isn't one. They all have elements of truth, and they all have some made up elements.

Real WCK is formless, so insider, public, secret, original, flip, and non flip versions is all BS.

I liked things about WC, WSL's set(s), about Augustine's set, about the Koo Sang set, the LT set, and HC and HKM's sets, but there were also things I thought were lame. Some people clearly made stuff up, others were honest and admitted they didn't know it.

But you got to go out there and get the experience for yourself.
I see your point. But where were you able to see all these sets? Leung Ting and Duncan Leung claim their BJD is so secretive only a few people know it. I would be happy to see Duncan Leung, Leung Ting or Leung Sheung, but the first two masters still do not want to show it openly.

Kevin

kevin_vt
02-24-2009, 05:48 AM
There is a difference between someone who has experience and knowledge changing aspects for a particular purpose and someone changing them for aesthetics or to fill a gap of understanding....

The reality is many people didnt get one on one teaching with regards to the weapons.

My Sifu experienced alot of this in regards to the LDB. As sifu Lok's assitant many asked him to 'tweak' thier kwan forms and when he asked to see thier forms found many differences that had come from people copying others and not being taught by an assistant.

The BJD is no different.
Well put, man

Vajramusti
02-24-2009, 08:55 AM
The reality is many people didnt get one on one teaching with regards to the weapons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO, that is true.

joy chaudhuri

chusauli
02-24-2009, 10:56 AM
I see your point. But where were you able to see all these sets? Leung Ting and Duncan Leung claim their BJD is so secretive only a few people know it. I would be happy to see Duncan Leung, Leung Ting or Leung Sheung, but the first two masters still do not want to show it openly.

Kevin


I saw Leung Ting's set demonstrated and taught to me by Allan Fong, his East Coast representative many years ago. It is a very good set. But of course, Allan Fong is no longer part of his organization.

As for Duncan Leung's set, I have not seen it, but I have heard it is the same as Ho Kam Ming's and Hawkins Cheung.

As for Leung Sheung, I do not know if there is a set. I would think it would be close to what Tsui Sheung Tien does. There is a Yip Man generational similarity, depend on the years when one trained with Yip Man.

chusauli
02-24-2009, 10:58 AM
[QUOTE=jooerduo;916697

I notice this about a lot of bjd demonstrators - they tend to go close to slicing their own wrist at the gan dao section

thats dangerous, but not for their intended enemy[/QUOTE]

LOL! How true that is!

kevin_vt
02-24-2009, 11:15 AM
I saw Leung Ting's set demonstrated and taught to me by Allan Fong, his East Coast representative many years ago. It is a very good set.
I understand now Robert. This is simply great. Could you list here the sections of his set or give some directions so I can try it. Up to know I have practiced only what I have put here - WSL and Wang Kui. Thank you very much!

chusauli
02-24-2009, 12:44 PM
I understand now Robert. This is simply great. Could you list here the sections of his set or give some directions so I can try it. Up to know I have practiced only what I have put here - WSL and Wang Kui. Thank you very much!


Kevin,

It is not that it is secret, but if you want to learn it, you should find someone in that lineage to teach you. Since I am not in that lineage, I am not qualified to show you or anyone.

Perhaps I am too traditional.

kevin_vt
02-24-2009, 12:58 PM
Kevin,

It is not that it is secret, but if you want to learn it, you should find someone in that lineage to teach you. Since I am not in that lineage, I am not qualified to show you or anyone.

Perhaps I am too traditional.
In that lineage the knives are never taught to the ordinary instructors and you know that very well :) I see very clearly why you do not want to post it here. It IS still a secret, unfortunately. My sincere intent was to compare the Leung Ting form with WSL and Wang Kui. But I will not push you on that :) as you will never openly post it - unless for A LOT of money

couch
02-24-2009, 01:43 PM
But I will not push you on that :) as you will never openly post it - unless for A LOT of money

I think you should edit that part.

kevin_vt
02-24-2009, 02:16 PM
Coach you are again right. Did not want to sound rude...just do not like when someone tries to show how much he knows and when you ask him direct questions he always finds an excuse. As you see, I openly listed Wang Kui and WSL. Why should I be the only one?

kevin_vt
02-24-2009, 02:33 PM
Randy Williams - BJD:

1) Hoy Sick
2) Huen Jing Gyeuk
3) Tuet Doh
4) Fon Doh
5) Syeung Ma Ngoy Kwun Doh
6) Cheen Chong Ma Huen Doh, Cheen Chong Ma Toang Doh
7) Syeung Ma Ngoy Jut Chahng Doh
8) Syeung Ma Tan Fun Doh
9) Gum Chahng Doh
10) Toh Ma Tan Fun Doh
11) Choh Ma Toang Doh
12) Syeung Ma Ngoy Kwun Doh
13) Cheen Chong Ma Huen Doh, Cheen Chong Ma Toang Doh
14) Syeung Ma Ngoy Jut Chahng Doh
15) Syeung Ma Tan/Fon Doh
16) Gum/Chahng Doh
17) Toh Ma Tan/Fun Doh
18) Hau Chohng Ma Syeung Jom Doh
19) Cheen Chohng Ma Syeung Jom Doh, Cheen Chohng Jing Ma Wui Doh
20) Biu/Woo Doh
21) Syeung Woo Doh
22) Biu/Woo Doh
23) Syeung Woo Doh
24) Biu/Woo Doh
25) Tan/Woo Doh
26) Biu/Woo Doh
27) Tan/Woo Doh
28) Syeung Chuo Doh
29) Ding Doh
30) Nghan Woon
31) Syeung Hahng Doh
32) Syeung Ha Loh Tiu Doh
33) Syeung Tai Biu Doh
34) Syeung Goh Loh Tiu Doh
35) Ngahn Woon
36) Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh
37) Syeung Ma Syeung Pock Doh
38) Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh
39) Syeung Ma Syeung Pock Doh
40) Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh
41) Syeung Ma Lon/Biu Doh, Tan/Jom Doh
42) Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh
43) Syeung Ma Lon/Biu Doh, Tan/Jom Doh
44) Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh,Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh
45) Syeung Ma Lon/Biu Doh, Tan/Fun Doh
46) “Ding“ Jee Ma Kum Doh
47) Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh
48) Syeung Ma Lon/Biu Doh, Tan/Fun Doh
49) “Ding“ Jee Ma Kum Doh
50) Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh, Toy Ma Gahng/Jom Doh,Toy Jing Ma Wui Doh
51) Cheen Chong Ma Syeung Jom Doh
52) Cheen Chong Ma Syeung Jom Doh
53) Cheen Chong Ma Syeung Jom Doh
54) Cheen Chong Ma Syeung Jom Doh
55) Choh Ma Ngoy Kwun Doh
56) “Yut“ Jee Doh
57) Hau Huen Juen Ma Gwot Doh
58) “Yut“ Jee Doh
59) Hau Huen Juen Ma Gwot Doh
60) “Yut“ Jee Doh
61) Hau Huen Juen Ma Gwot Doh, Toy Jing Ma Wui Doh
62) Cheen Chong Ma Syeung Jom Doh
63) Cheen Chong Ma Syeung Jom Doh
64) Cheen Chong Ma Syeung Jom Doh
65) Cheen Chong Ma Syeung Jom Doh
66) Choh Ma Ngoy Kwun Doh
67) “Yut“ Jee Doh
68) Hau Huen Juen Ma Gwot Doh
69) “Yut“ Jee Doh
70) Hau Huen Juen Ma Gwot Doh
71) “Yut“ Jee Doh
72) Hau Huen Juen Ma Gwot Doh, Toy Jing Ma Wui Doh
73) Biu Doh
74) Syeung Ma Tan/Biu Doh
75) Syeung Ma Tan/Biu Doh
76) Syeung Ma Tan/Biu Doh
77) Syeung Ma Tan/Biu Doh
78) Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh, Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh, Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh,Toy Jing Ma Woo Doh
79) Biu Doh
80) Syeung Ma Tan/Biu Doh
81) Syeung Ma Tan/Biu Doh
82) Syeung Ma Tan/Biu Doh
83) Syeung Ma Tan/Biu Doh
84) Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh, Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh, Toy Ma Syeung Jom Doh, Toy Jing Ma Woo Doh
85) Hau Chong Ma Boang/Woo Doh
86) Hau Chong Ma Boang/Woo Doh
87) Hau Chong Ma Boang/Woo Doh
88) Toh Ma Ngoy Jut/Fun Doh
89) Cheen Chong Ma Ngoy Jut/Jom Doh, Cheen Chong Jing Ma Wui Doh
90) Hau Chong Ma Boang/Woo Doh
91) Hau Chong Ma Boang/Woo Doh
92) Hau Chong Ma Boang/Woo Doh
93) Toh Ma Ngoy Jut/Fun Doh
94) Cheen Chong Ma Ngoy Jut/Jom Doh, Cheen Chong Jing Ma Wui Doh
95) Fock/Woo Doh
96) Fock/Woo Doh
97) Fock/Woo Doh, Wui Doh
98) Fock/Woo Doh
99) Fock/Woo Doh
100) Fock/Woo Doh, Wui Doh
101) Syeung Ma Fock/Woo Doh, Syeung Huen Toang Doh
102) Toh Ma Fock/Woo Doh, Syeung Huen Toang Doh
103) Toh Ma Fock/Woo Doh, Syeung Huen Toang Doh
104) Ngoy Seen Wai Fock/Woo Doh, Syeung Huen Toang Doh
105) Toh Ma Fock/Woo Doh, Syeung Huen Toang Doh
106) Toh Ma Fock/Woo Doh, Syeung Huen Toang Doh
107) Ngoy Seen Wai Fock/Woo Doh, Toy Jing Ma
108) Sau Sick

Liddel
02-24-2009, 04:27 PM
After spending so many years searching for the real BJD set, I know there isn't one. They all have elements of truth, and they all have some made up elements.

Real WCK is formless, so insider, public, secret, original, flip, and non flip versions is all BS.

IME from talking and visiting WC people in my country, its better to see Chi Do or actual sparring to get the gist of a persons BJD style.

Ive seen some stuff in the BJD forms of others that just make me scratch my head thinking 'if he did that when and where i use it hed get sliced' :eek: but then after seeing them apply it, i realised for that individual it had a different timing and usage within the fight so it fit thier "individual purpose".. and IMO thats fine - its different sure but it fits a purpose - its not for show.

So now when i see someone with a totally different form, even if i think its a bit useless - i take the diplomatic route.... and say "you must have a different purpose/usage" :p

Moreover i also see some things that look as though someone has interrepted an action in a seperate way. Ip Chun has a section where he flips the knives and drops them in a backward stabbing motion at his sides.... this to me looks like someone watched Yat Chi Do from a distance and tried doing it...

(speculation guys not saying he actually did it, no offence to Ip Chun people ok)

His horse looks very much like the hand forms rather than the 50/50 stance of others and he seems to be very foward facing during ther form to, no 40 45 angles.

Now when i compare this to how i spar and the angling and distance i use i think i couldnt behave in the way he does so id really love to see him Chi Do and or sparr with them to see his actuall useage of timing and distance etc...

Every move i was taught, we then moved from the form to actuall application sparring the pole or Chi Do with another BJD user. Some are low percentage some high but everything has a purpose .

We need to see more Chi Do at the very least.

DREW

chusauli
02-24-2009, 05:25 PM
Blackbelt magazine writer Mark Cheng put out an article on me maybe 2 years ago and the Bart Jaam Dao. Basically it was the set Koo Sang taught me and describes the set in detail.

Those of you with access to the Black Belt site can find the article real fast. ;)

chusauli
02-24-2009, 05:28 PM
Before you judge me too quickly, I am not an instructor of Wing Tsun - Leung Ting system. I feel I have every right to explain that clearly and don't dare to misrepresent myself.

And I am correct in saying so - the WT system has a very good set passed down from Yip Man to Leung Ting.

Phil Redmond
02-24-2009, 09:07 PM
I see your point. But where were you able to see all these sets? Leung Ting and Duncan Leung claim their BJD is so secretive only a few people know it. I would be happy to see Duncan Leung, Leung Ting or Leung Sheung, but the first two masters still do not want to show it openly.

Kevin
The secret is........shhhhh..... there is no secret just hard training. I'll teach the BJD to a student if they have an understanding of WC principles and they think they can learn it. A student has to practice diligently to be good at anything. So why talk about secret techniques. I show all I have without reservation. If the CMA's keep that "secret" attitude the arts will be watered down and other arts will simply evolve and get better leaving CMA's in the dust. IMO Sifus have secrets because they want to hold a student back to keep the money coming in or they are worried that the student might get better than the Sifu. I want my students to get better than me. If you're worried about a student challenging you there is always the "equalizer". ;)
My father who was a Texan and a gun collector once said if you ever think you'll be able to kick my a s s I'll shoot you.

kevin_vt
02-25-2009, 12:20 AM
Thank you for your great answers, Robert and Phil. I do apologize for my bad behavior. It looks like my curiosity made me a bit impolite, unintentionally.

couch
02-25-2009, 06:31 AM
I want my students to get better than me. If you're worried about a student challenging you there is always the "equalizer". ;)
My father who was a Texan and a gun collector once said if you ever think you'll be able to kick my a s s I'll shoot you.

You got this right. On a good day, I may be able to hand my training partner's their a s s. On a bad day, it'll be reversed and there's no shame in this. This just means I'm doing my job at making them better and take from the lessons learned.

kevinvt: you can call me Kenton or couch...but I'm not Coach....LOL. I fear I may be a poor example of that title. I know you want to have a conversation with others about their BJD and I commend you on that. It's a tough topic because, as others have stated, some people haven't learned the whole set, some have put it together in parts, some pieces have been lost. There's a lot of 'ego' involved here. A lot of people are also under the impression that they don't have the whole system if the BJD is not included in the curriculum. As things have been passed down to me, I have no problem showing the form I've accrued - but I am honest in saying that I am not qualified to teach many applications from it. I have been spending a little time in Escrima, so in the years to come, I'm sure it will open some doors in regards to the BJD. Hope this ramble makes sense.

chusauli
02-25-2009, 10:15 AM
Thank you for your great answers, Robert and Phil. I do apologize for my bad behavior. It looks like my curiosity made me a bit impolite, unintentionally.

No big deal. As I said, the LT, Yip Bros., Koo Sang and Moy Yat forms are all similar. If you see them, you see the great similarity between them. Every section is one move done 4 X, finished with Jum Dao, then repeated opposite...then the section continues with moving steps and 3 - 4 steps backwards, finishing with Jum Dao. For example in this set I teach, there are no flips:

Hoi Jong - Bao Dao - Wang Chong Gerk

Section 1: Chit Dao
Jip Dao, Seung Ma Huen Jaam, Tui Bo Tor Dao 3X

Section 2: Chi (Biu) Dao
Seung Ma Yee Ji Dao 4 X, Tun Hou Tor Dao 4 X

Section 3: Gaun/Jaam Dao
Seung Ma Tan Jaam 4 X - Tun Hou Gaun Dao 4 X

Section 4: Kwun Dao
Kwun Dao - Tiu Dao/Wang Chit - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Tor Dao 3 X

Section 5: Biu Dao
Mun Lou Dao - Chiu Dae Dao, Saat Dao - Tun Hou Gaun Dao 3 X

Section 6: Yat Ji Dao
Ha Sup Ji - Tout Dao, Seung Ma Tout Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Tor Dao 3 X

Section 7: Huen/Jaam Dao
Tor Dao - Chiu Dae Dao - Sheung Ma Chiu Dae Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Chi Dao 4X

Section 8: Sup Ji Dao
Sup Ji Dao - Chiu Dae Dao - Sheung Ma Chiu Dae Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Chi Dao 3 X

Sou Sik

Its good to get to know peers in the art to share and grow. Since we, the 2nd generation under Yip Man, are getting old, we have to pass on the "secrets" to students who really desire to learn. Since I am semi-retired from WCK and just a Chinese doctor, my skill and standard is not high anymore.

These are only words, the real set needs to be practiced hard with proper body structure. Out here in the west, gunfighting is more serious than Bart Jaam Dao. There are also many styles: LFI, Chapman, S&W, Gunsite, etc. I have learned gun fu, too. We need to develop.

kevin_vt
02-25-2009, 11:34 PM
Blackbelt magazine writer Mark Cheng put out an article on me maybe 2 years ago and the Bart Jaam Dao. Basically it was the set Koo Sang taught me and describes the set in detail.
Those of you with access to the Black Belt site can find the article real fast.

May be I am really stupid :) but after digging the site despite my efforts I was not able do find it.
But I discovered something else:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ss4DAAAAMBAJ


No big deal. As I said, the LT, Yip Bros., Koo Sang and Moy Yat forms are all similar. If you see them, you see the great similarity between them. Every section is one move done 4 X, finished with Jum Dao, then repeated opposite...then the section continues with moving steps and 3 - 4 steps backwards, finishing with Jum Dao. For example in this set I teach, there are no flips:

Hoi Jong - Bao Dao - Wang Chong Gerk

Section 1: Chit Dao
Jip Dao, Seung Ma Huen Jaam, Tui Bo Tor Dao 3X

Section 2: Chi (Biu) Dao
Seung Ma Yee Ji Dao 4 X, Tun Hou Tor Dao 4 X

Section 3: Gaun/Jaam Dao
Seung Ma Tan Jaam 4 X - Tun Hou Gaun Dao 4 X

Section 4: Kwun Dao
Kwun Dao - Tiu Dao/Wang Chit - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Tor Dao 3 X

Section 5: Biu Dao
Mun Lou Dao - Chiu Dae Dao, Saat Dao - Tun Hou Gaun Dao 3 X

Section 6: Yat Ji Dao
Ha Sup Ji - Tout Dao, Seung Ma Tout Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Tor Dao 3 X

Section 7: Huen/Jaam Dao
Tor Dao - Chiu Dae Dao - Sheung Ma Chiu Dae Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Chi Dao 4X

Section 8: Sup Ji Dao
Sup Ji Dao - Chiu Dae Dao - Sheung Ma Chiu Dae Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Chi Dao 3 X

Sou Sik

Its good to get to know peers in the art to share and grow. Since we, the 2nd generation under Yip Man, are getting old, we have to pass on the "secrets" to students who really desire to learn. Since I am semi-retired from WCK and just a Chinese doctor, my skill and standard is not high anymore. These are only words, the real set needs to be practiced hard with proper body structure. Out here in the west, gunfighting is more serious than Bart Jaam Dao.
There are also many styles: LFI, Chapman, S&W, Gunsite, etc. I have learned gun fu, too. We need to develop.

Left palm over my right clenched fist, and a deep bow from me, sifu Chu,

Kevin

Shadow_warrior8
02-26-2009, 01:19 AM
These are the Sections taught to me- Yip Chun Lineage

Bart Cham Dao's direct Chinese translation is eight cutting or chopping knife form. As it's name implies the form consist of eight sections which includes: -

1. Cham Dao (chop)
2. Chark Dao (stabbing)
3. Tan Dao (palm up)
4. Kan/Gaun Dao (insert)
5. Kwun Dao (rotating)
6. Yat Chi Dao ( character "one" )
7. Man Dao (asking)
8. Kup Dao (elbow down)

chusauli
02-26-2009, 11:37 AM
May be I am really stupid :) but after digging the site despite my efforts I was not able do find it.
But I discovered something else:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ss4DAAAAMBAJ



Left palm over my right clenched fist, and a deep bow from me, sifu Chu,

Kevin

It was up a while back. I asked the author to put it back up on his website, when he does I will post the link.

We have to know that Yip Man was always refining his art - making it better for him, discarding pieces that didn't fit, changing old ways to do better for him. His knives sets showed his evolution, as well as his Jong set. The hand sets were tweeked in ways from the Futshan version.

What I term as "body structure" comes from the knives; it is not the empty hand, then wielding 2 knives - it is the knives body structure wielding empty hands.

Forms don't mean much if done with the chest hollow, hunchback, weight on the rear leg only - where are you directing your vector forces?

LoneTiger108
02-28-2009, 03:33 PM
Thanks for sharing this set Chu Sifu.


For example in this set I teach, there are no flips:

Hoi Jong - Bao Dao - Wang Chong Gerk

Section 1: Chit Dao
Jip Dao, Seung Ma Huen Jaam, Tui Bo Tor Dao 3X

Section 2: Chi (Biu) Dao
Seung Ma Yee Ji Dao 4 X, Tun Hou Tor Dao 4 X

Section 3: Gaun/Jaam Dao
Seung Ma Tan Jaam 4 X - Tun Hou Gaun Dao 4 X

Section 4: Kwun Dao
Kwun Dao - Tiu Dao/Wang Chit - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Tor Dao 3 X

Section 5: Biu Dao
Mun Lou Dao - Chiu Dae Dao, Saat Dao - Tun Hou Gaun Dao 3 X

Section 6: Yat Ji Dao
Ha Sup Ji - Tout Dao, Seung Ma Tout Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Tor Dao 3 X

Section 7: Huen/Jaam Dao
Tor Dao - Chiu Dae Dao - Sheung Ma Chiu Dae Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Chi Dao 4X

Section 8: Sup Ji Dao
Sup Ji Dao - Chiu Dae Dao - Sheung Ma Chiu Dae Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Chi Dao 3 X

Sou Sik

Although I can see that you do not do the 8. Kup Dao that Ip Chun demonstrated in the clip. Very similar in parts to a set in Biu Jee.


1. Cham Dao (chop)
2. Chark Dao (stabbing)
3. Tan Dao (palm up)
4. Kan/Gaun Dao (insert)
5. Kwun Dao (rotating)
6. Yat Chi Dao ( character "one" )
7. Man Dao (asking)
8. Kup Dao (elbow down)

This is where some 'flipping' occurs. Now I have no idea why it's there? I've heard terms like 'sleeve knife' and often practised similar 'feelings' with the rattan rings used as shields (folded against the forearm). Its extremely difficult to actually use, and requires superb timing and arms of metal! Very close and very dangerous.

On a personal note, I haven't learnt either form from my Sifu, although I do have some basic knife experience. FWIW I've always preferred the pole :o

Shadow_warrior8
03-01-2009, 01:35 AM
Here's my take on the flipping, I didnt ask my sifu though, so its only my personal intepretation

I did other martial arts prior to Wingchun

Kubudo Karate
In using the Sai, we use the reverse grips(so called flipping)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lg5FhrkyB0

In using the tonfa, we use the reverse grip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl_3fj6jV3w

Bujinkan Ninjutsu
In ninjutsu, we use the sword with a reverse grip

Others

This is Wuzu, they use the sai in reverse grips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpV79uOHbas

In White Crane Yong Chun, they use the reverse grip in knives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XcLRXzlE-c

I have done some basic knife/dagger fighting with a Sensei in Japan, he doesnt teach reverse grips. I showed him my batt cham dao form and he said, its a different weapon, with a different length, reach so different ways of handling it, generating power, different ways of fighting.

Kup Dao seems to be for really close range and you still want to be able to able to attack the guy, like in a grapple over control of the weapon and disarming, and you cant use batt cham dao extended due to its length and range. It makes sense to be me in wingchun, we say its short range close quarter combat, but when it gets into grappling range, that an elbow is all you have
With Kup Dao, you can still cut with the tip or elbow. I have used the handle for striking in reverse grip, much like sai, tonfa.

The next available weapon will be the hips, the shoulder, the knees, the head according to the 7 stars.

Seven Stars
1. head
2. shoulders
3. elbows
4. hands
5. hips
6. knees
7. feet

Shadow_warrior8
03-01-2009, 08:01 AM
Other lineages and their forms

Yiu Kay Wing Chun knives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLfOyyUEh0

Phil Redmond
03-01-2009, 01:13 PM
Other lineages and their forms

Yiu Kay Wing Chun knives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLfOyyUEh0
That's the guy Keith Mazza did chi sao with in Fatshan.

rochester
03-01-2009, 09:02 PM
What I term as "body structure" comes from the knives; it is not the empty hand, then wielding 2 knives - it is the knives body structure wielding empty hands.

Dr. Chu, how did you take your "body structure" from the knives form? Why would something this important be in the last part of the system? Thanks

Phil Redmond
03-02-2009, 01:59 AM
All major movements of BJD are derived from the hand positions - tan, bong, kwun, gan etc.

However there is one strange movement.

Here is the picture taken from Sifu Duncan Leung's page:

http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/knives1b.jpg

I think it is called Yat Jee Dao(?) and sometimes described as PoPai with the knives.

But PoPai from the dummy is a push. This one looks strange, unfamiliar, even not efficient.

Could someone explain?
What you see in that pic is a double Gan (plowing) Do. It's the knife version of the double gan sao. Here's a clip I threw together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tujQ1XUVWsI

LSWCTN1
03-02-2009, 06:07 AM
not yet on the knives, but have seen them played with many times

because i am not on them yet, maybe this is pure ignorance - but here goes anyway:

i know many instructors like to use the bong sau to crach into people as a cover and tie up (a la Duncan Leungs SNT video). if the blades are meant to be an extension of the hands then by flipping the blade over would this not still be possible?

or for simmilar applications to lan sao.

or for an overhand blade strike from your attacker. some people may say you would just strike forward. IMHO that would be suicide, as the momentum would still bring the blade down on the head

FWIW, of my 2 instructors - my Dad does flip the blades, and i have never seen my present instructor do it

let me know how far of the mark i am!

Shadow_warrior8
03-02-2009, 06:56 AM
Like what Yip man told Sipak Gung Yip Ching when he asked his dad if he can modify the punch in Bil Jee because he felt the energy of the hooking punch should be horizontal instead of vertical.

Yip Man said, I dont know. If you do it this way, and you feel its right and others can agree with you, then you can.

That might be how Yip man taught his students, advocating them to find the wingchun in them, and to use what they believe works. Instead of sticking to the "standard" syllables.

Here's wingchun guys taking a thrashing on Fight Quest.
Thoughts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fOMZyoIYc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwyuReiKxvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Eq_Z02FQtk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1hVevRW_48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB8xrbl-wZc

CFT
03-02-2009, 06:58 AM
Good questions. I'm ignorant about the knives, but exactly how far can we take the "extension of the hands" idea? Blades are dangerous in and of themselves as you have already stated. One wouldn't really "take a knife" as readily as they would "take a punch".

The idea of flipping the knives doesn't "seem" so outrageous. It seems like a way of converting a longer range weapon to shorter range use. But my question is when can you do the flip in actual usage? The knife is not obviously designed for flipping; the length of the blade means that it is relatively heavy which make it difficult to control such a risky manoeuvre. I'd say that one would be in danger of cutting oneself!

Shadow_warrior8
03-02-2009, 07:10 AM
Good questions. I'm ignorant about the knives, but exactly how far can we take the "extension of the hands" idea? Blades are dangerous in and of themselves as you have already stated. One wouldn't really "take a knife" as readily as they would "take a punch".

The idea of flipping the knives doesn't "seem" so outrageous. It seems like a way of converting a longer range weapon to shorter range use. But my question is when can you do the flip in actual usage? The knife is not obviously designed for flipping; the length of the blade means that it is relatively heavy which make it difficult to control such a risky manoeuvre. I'd say that one would be in danger of cutting oneself!

my japanese sensei said to me, its a different weapon, its a Dao, like a short sword. Not a dagger.

So knife not for flipping, well not sure. Because my CQC training we do use the reverse grip. So does my balisong training- and these filipino guys have been doing it for ages.

Of course it depends on the skill and preference of the individual. :)

But at bart cham dao has a hook and it facilitates flip. The weight- heavier at the tip and pretty weighty if you ask me, helps in powering the force into the tip. Sigung Yip Chun and my sifu when they do the flip into cham dao, really send the power and you can hear the ringing of the metal vibrating in the room- uber cool.

http://www.mikefelder.com/images/losword4.jpg

By the way, anyone know where I can get Koo Sang's blades with the blood groove? Anywhere in HK or China? I am heading up to do some training soon.

LSWCTN1
03-02-2009, 08:13 AM
By the way, anyone know where I can get Koo Sang's blades with the blood groove? Anywhere in HK or China? I am heading up to do some training soon.

i have some - purely to motivate me into training harder to get to the knives!

however - my Dad thinks that they are wrong, as they dont hold together as one before splitting

these are the ones i have
http://www.woodendummies.co.uk/p-27-koo-sang-carbon-steel-butterfly-knives.aspx

very nice, heavy, quality feel to them

also:

someone hooks the knife at you, roundhouse style. with a punch you could bui sau into the crook of the elbow to stop the strike. a simmilar motion with the knives would take the knife way past the 'zone'. however a flipped blade could allow the 'bui sau' to be performed in the same manner, while still cutting them?

Phil Redmond
03-02-2009, 12:08 PM
Thank you Victor!

I may sound a bit silly but where is Kan Sao in empty-hand forms?

It is NOT Tan/Bong combo(Kwun Sao) right?

Ok here is my idea.

If the form is called eight slashing knives there must be a reason.

Like in the pole we have 7 techniques, one of them known as half.

So with the other weapon it should be the same.

What are the names of these eight movements/sections/concepts?

Why the form is called like that?

Any sifus, advanced students welcome to share knowledge.
Well in TWC the Baat Jahm Do means 8 slashing knife. The 8 slashes are to the elbows, wrists, ankles, and knees. Since we have two of each...get my drift?? :)

Phil Redmond
03-02-2009, 12:17 PM
All major movements of BJD are derived from the hand positions - tan, bong, kwun, gan etc.

However there is one strange movement.

Here is the picture taken from Sifu Duncan Leung's page:

http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/knives1b.jpg

I think it is called Yat Jee Dao(?) and sometimes described as PoPai with the knives.

But PoPai from the dummy is a push. This one looks strange, unfamiliar, even not efficient.

Could someone explain?
This is a very bad quality vid. I'll only leave it up for a while. I can put up better clips later. Anyway, here I attempt (lol) to explain the Po Pai Jeung and the Lan Do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvh7gMOwreE

anerlich
03-02-2009, 03:04 PM
Good questions. I'm ignorant about the knives, but exactly how far can we take the "extension of the hands" idea? Blades are dangerous in and of themselves as you have already stated. One wouldn't really "take a knife" as readily as they would "take a punch".

Speaking about blades generally and not just the BJD, you have to be very aware of the differences, more so than the similarities IMO. For example, a lot of the stuff you would do in WC to defend against an unarmed attacker (bil, tan. garn, etc,) will get your forearms sliced to ribbons against a blade.


The idea of flipping the knives doesn't "seem" so outrageous. It seems like a way of converting a longer range weapon to shorter range use. But my question is when can you do the flip in actual usage? The knife is not obviously designed for flipping; the length of the blade means that it is relatively heavy which make it difficult to control such a risky manoeuvre. I'd say that one would be in danger of cutting oneself!

The danger of cutting oneself is always there, flipping or no. Even solo practice with sharp blades is pretty dangerous - my sihing cut two of his fingers, severing the tendons - it took an operation and about twelve months to fully heal. He couldn't grip or make a fist with the two damaged fingers nearly all of that time.

IMO both you and your partner would have to be extremely good, lunatics, or both to conteplate sparring with real sharp weapons, one miscalculation and you could easily slice your own forearm, your leg, or his. You can bleed out and die very quickly from a bad cut to a femoral artery.

Some people flip, some don't - IMO relinqushing the grip on the weapon even for a split second is too risky. If you want to develop manual skill and dexterity, it might be OK, but if you're practicing for a battle with edged weapons, I wouldn't.

"Actual usage" is something to ponder. Where I live, you can't carry actual BJD for defense legally, and you aren't likely to find a pair lying around for use as improvised weapons in places your likely to be attacked. The techniques can be adapted for short sticks, using a bashing rather than slicing action.

IMO time is better invested learning about shorter knives, combat folders, etc. as you are more likely to have access to, or to be atacked with, those.

Of course, fighting an armed attacker is lunacy if you have any chance of escape, someone could die or be permanently disabled and it might be you. Defeat is not confined to non martial artists.

Your best training for such encounters might be practicing your sprints.

Phil Redmond
03-02-2009, 03:29 PM
. . . . Some people flip, some don't - IMO relinqushing the grip on the weapon even for a split second is too risky. If you want to develop manual skill and dexterity, it might be OK, but if you're practicing for a battle with edged weapons, I wouldn't.
. . . . .
That's exactly the problem with flipping a blade during the chaos of a fight. You have to relinqush your grip even if it's for only a fraction of a second. That's a fraction of a second too long for me. I want to have complete control of my weapon with a good firm grip.

Yoshiyahu
03-02-2009, 05:27 PM
Whats the application of flipping the blades?


Also its interesting Augustine Fong Does not flip the Knives at all in his form....



Ip Chun flips the Knives alot in his form.

I wounder why there is so much difference?



That's exactly the problem with flipping a blade during the chaos of a fight. You have to relinqush your grip even if it's for only a fraction of a second. That's a fraction of a second too long for me. I want to have complete control of my weapon with a good firm grip.

Phil Redmond
03-02-2009, 07:55 PM
Whats the application of flipping the blades?


Also its interesting Augustine Fong Does not flip the Knives at all in his form....



Ip Chun flips the Knives alot in his form.

I wounder why there is so much difference?

The reason is that Wing Chun isn't a Pai (system). It's a Kuen. Yip Man taught different things to different people during different periods of his teaching career. Boxers learn boxing but they don't all fight or train the same yet they can be effective. What's right is what works.

chusauli
03-03-2009, 11:00 AM
The reason is that Wing Chun isn't a Pai (system). It's a Kuen. Yip Man taught different things to different people during different periods of his teaching career. Boxers learn boxing but they don't all fight or train the same yet they can be effective. What's right is what works.

This wording of Pai (System), or Wui (Asociation) is merely semantics applied by others. All TCMA systems are a form of "Kuen Shut" (Quan Shu), but it would be better to call us "Kok Shut" (Kuo Shu - National Art) or "Mo Shut" (Wu Shu).

For example, Choy Lay Fut is broken into Chan Family, Hung Sing, Hung Sing and Bak Sing - they are considered a "Pai" by us (Outsiders to the system). If you use the logic that Phil is using above, all CLF people learn something a little different from their Sifu - some learn more sets, others learn more San Sao, others learn more weaponry. When they learn the fists forms, they are learning a "Kuen" - so basically, I think the thought behind your statement is a bit flawed in the traditional Chinese Martial arts sense.

Myself, for example of clarification, although I learned Bak Mei "Pai" - I was learning the weaponry and Kuen Shut of Bak Mei. And when I learned Lama Pai - I was learn various "Kuen" of Lama. I certainly learned things my other training brothers may or may not have learned because my Sifu taught me according to my build and ability.

Please no offense, just trying to clarify.

chusauli
03-03-2009, 11:05 AM
BTW, flipping of knives, in my opinion, is simply made up by those who like to flip for show. It is trying to show skill in wielding a weapon. It has no martial purpose whatsoever.

The tang and wing of the Bart Jaam Dao is used to hook and detain weapons, not flip. Simply use a Tiu Dao and it will trap an opponent's pole arm. You slide up the pole and disarm (maybe I should say "dis-finger") the person wielding a pole, spear or other pole-arm.

Phil Redmond
03-03-2009, 11:18 AM
This wording of Pai (System), or Wui (Asociation) is merely semantics applied by others. All TCMA systems are a form of "Kuen Shut" (Quan Shu), but it would be better to call us "Kok Shut" (Kuo Shu - National Art) or "Mo Shut" (Wu Shu).

For example, Choy Lay Fut is broken into Chan Family, Hung Sing, Hung Sing and Bak Sing - they are considered a "Pai" by us (Outsiders to the system). If you use the logic that Phil is using above, all CLF people learn something a little different from their Sifu - some learn more sets, others learn more San Sao, others learn more weaponry. When they learn the fists forms, they are learning a "Kuen" - so basically, I think the thought behind your statement is a bit flawed in the traditional Chinese Martial arts sense.

Myself, for example of clarification, although I learned Bak Mei "Pai" - I was learning the weaponry and Kuen Shut of Bak Mei. And when I learned Lama Pai - I was learn various "Kuen" of Lama. I certainly learned things my other training brothers may or may not have learned because my Sifu taught me according to my build and ability.

Please no offense, just trying to clarify.
No offense taken Robert.

Phil Redmond
03-03-2009, 11:18 AM
BTW, flipping of knives, in my opinion, is simply made up by those who like to flip for show. It is trying to show skill in wielding a weapon. It has no martial purpose whatsoever.

The tang and wing of the Bart Jaam Dao is used to hook and detain weapons, not flip. Simply use a Tiu Dao and it will trap an opponent's pole arm. You slide up the pole and disarm (maybe I should say "dis-finger") the person wielding a pole, spear or other pole-arm.
We both agree on this point.

Liddel
03-03-2009, 04:06 PM
BTW, flipping of knives, in my opinion, is simply made up by those who like to flip for show. It is trying to show skill in wielding a weapon. It has no martial purpose whatsoever.

The tang and wing of the Bart Jaam Dao is used to hook and detain weapons, not flip. Simply use a Tiu Dao and it will trap an opponent's pole arm. You slide up the pole and disarm (maybe I should say "dis-finger") the person wielding a pole, spear or other pole-arm.

It also drastically changes the mechanics, as the wrist and hand when using the Do become in effect the elbow point (for power and support) if you relate it back to the VT hand forms (as i was taught).

And more importantly it changes your range. I question ones ability to remain in a safe position when in such a close range using the Do.

Its akin to hand actions like Wu or bong being to close to the body... it affects your support and timing - your setting yourself up for failure IMO.

The closer you are with the do the less time you have to react. So flipping the Do to me is a paradox of application. :o

When dealing with weapons like the BJD space is your friend - its better to have to much than not enough...

You only need to chi do or sparr with them to find that out.

DREW

chusauli
03-03-2009, 05:18 PM
The knives is ideally practiced against a long pole or spear. It is trying to show how a short weapon can be used against a long weapon.

In reality, given room, the spear or staff wielder will make short work out of the knives wielder. One Saat Gwun, or one Tiu Gwun and its history.

Maybe the knives can help your footwork a little, or exercise your limbs, but the pole or spear is considered the king of weapons. It gets that title from its versatility and power.

Even the legends stated that Wong Wah Bo wanted to trade the entire system for the pole with Leung Yee Tai.

Yoshiyahu
03-03-2009, 07:18 PM
Too me. I think the kinves are better use at a close range. Basically against a longer weapon you can use them disarm your opponent. I always thought the knives were to cut the wrist of your opponent. An to kill with it you have to be close enough to slash the throat.

But this is just my opinion i could be wrong of course. I always saw the swords as a short range weapon? And the Long Pole as long range weapon!

Shadow_warrior8
03-04-2009, 04:53 AM
My 2 cents because I have trained some kobudo weapons and other weapons,

if (flipping- I dont know who coined it) the reverse grip makes sense to me , because it is used in movements for tonfa, sai, balisong, white crane knives, katana.

We use the jutte to disarm knifes in togakure ninjutsu so, the tang in bart cham dao is useful for tat, however I found a more solid execution in the jutte than a bart cham dao.

I see it as this, why change from front to reverse grip? Because you need to use the tip maybe? Like how I use the sai to strike or the blade portion to block.

Why change grip into front grip(flip)- because it was in reverse grip and I wanted to have a extended reach.

Front grip, reverse grip both offers different angles due to body structure.

Again like many have said, it has to work, so if you can train it to work good, if not, just stick to whatever works for you.

LSWCTN1
03-04-2009, 06:19 AM
BTW, flipping of knives, in my opinion, is simply made up by those who like to flip for show. It is trying to show skill in wielding a weapon. It has no martial purpose whatsoever.

The tang and wing of the Bart Jaam Dao is used to hook and detain weapons, not flip. Simply use a Tiu Dao and it will trap an opponent's pole arm. You slide up the pole and disarm (maybe I should say "dis-finger") the person wielding a pole, spear or other pole-arm.

hi,

i just wanted to know what you thought of my assumptions at the top of page 12, could these instances of flipped blades work?

kind regards

david

hunt1
03-04-2009, 09:16 AM
Never read the rule book where it said knives only for use against long range weapons.

@ basic types of knife forms. Those that look like other southern systems and those that use wing chun body and footwork. Yui Choi form has reverse grip and wing chun body yet is different than Yip forms .

Learn pole and you can use foil or epea (sp) in fencing. Knives and you adapt quickly to saber.

You fight how you train . In the tension speed and fear of combat things you haven't trained will never come out no matter how much you need it.

Sure flipping is not a good thing to do in combat most of the time. Nothing that weakens your grip on your weapon is good but there may be that one in a thousand you need to flip so best to have trained it. Certainly doesn't hurt.

Sword can be trained against long medium or short weapons. Against short a flip situation might come up.

hunt1
03-04-2009, 09:23 AM
In short having a flip can't hurt you and can only help. teaches some dextarity to among other things. Not having the knowledge to reverse at full speed might hurt you on that off chance some day.

Yoshiyahu
03-04-2009, 10:20 AM
The Bart Cham Dao is a short range weapon like Sai's or hand held knives.


But all short range weapons can trained and practiced against both short and long range weapons. I personally believe a long range weapon is greater threat to the Bart Cham Dao because you have to first gain entry so you can attack. Like for instance fighting against a broadsword or samurai sword may be difficult because they have slight advantage over you. But if you are skilled in using the Bart Cham Dao then you should be able to bridge the gap. How ever I doubt personally I will attain that skill because outside of practice I do not expect to fight on the streets with short swords. Its highly impractical. Not to many people are going to attack you with a samurai sword or broad sword. But it is still good to practice for love of art. But for practical use I suggest practice using a knife,gun,sticks,metal baseball bats. Also learn ways to use a rock in sock as weapon. I have found Baoding balls make a great weapon. An you can legally carry them around. Maybe keep a clean sock with you an double up on socks and you got a nice swinging head bonker.

But BJD as long or short range weapon is just mere speculation because the chance of using you combat steel sharpen broadswords are like one and million since Real broadswords are not legal to carry around in most states.

How ever you can buy a machete at walmart. Which I may be investing in two. An you can buy Axes and Hammers at Walmart. Also you have your choice of shotguns from alot of pawnshops for about 50-200 dollars. So you have other practical more up to date weapons that won't seem to strange if you have them.

Having a hammer or box cutter may not be too bad. But walking around with Shortswords will attract too much attention. Like your asking for trouble.





Never read the rule book where it said knives only for use against long range weapons.

@ basic types of knife forms. Those that look like other southern systems and those that use wing chun body and footwork. Yui Choi form has reverse grip and wing chun body yet is different than Yip forms .

Learn pole and you can use foil or epea (sp) in fencing. Knives and you adapt quickly to saber.

You fight how you train . In the tension speed and fear of combat things you haven't trained will never come out no matter how much you need it.

Sure flipping is not a good thing to do in combat most of the time. Nothing that weakens your grip on your weapon is good but there may be that one in a thousand you need to flip so best to have trained it. Certainly doesn't hurt.

Sword can be trained against long medium or short weapons. Against short a flip situation might come up.

chusauli
03-04-2009, 10:39 AM
not yet on the knives, but have seen them played with many times

because i am not on them yet, maybe this is pure ignorance - but here goes anyway:

i know many instructors like to use the bong sau to crach into people as a cover and tie up (a la Duncan Leungs SNT video). if the blades are meant to be an extension of the hands then by flipping the blade over would this not still be possible?

or for simmilar applications to lan sao.

or for an overhand blade strike from your attacker. some people may say you would just strike forward. IMHO that would be suicide, as the momentum would still bring the blade down on the head

FWIW, of my 2 instructors - my Dad does flip the blades, and i have never seen my present instructor do it

let me know how far of the mark i am!

Hi David,

Just wanted to answer your questions.

As I know from my study of weaponry (Chinese, Filipino, Western, Japanese and Okinawan), in general, the weapon is kept between you and your opponent. If you flip the knives, you have given up that advantage.

In FMA, if you drop your weapon and recover it reverse, you shouldbe able to defend yourself with it. That is why they train it reverse grip, but that is not ideal for them.

The Okinawan Sai or Japanese Jutte is not the Bart Jaam Dao. As I understand, the Jutte is not flipped from its wing. So the flipping of a truncheon like the sai (Tiet chek) may not have direct application to the twin knives.

As for WCK's knives, they were created during a time when gunpowder was king. The Siu Dao Wui (Small Knife Association) members used almost identical knives to ours. The knives were used against mainly the battlefield weapons of the time (spear, sabre, bayonet) and only used as a backup weapon. Although hunt1 thinks otherwise, let us examine the historical context. Even the British were surprised at how well the Chinese wielded the spear in the 19th century, and the spear was considered the King of weapons in China.

As I said, TCMA likes art in many places of a set, and devoids it of martial context, and having to show one's control of a weapon - flipping is showing how skillful one can wield it in lieu of actual martial context. Just as the flowers done with a Kwan Dao, and images of Kwan Gung stroking his beart, sharpening his knife, and riding a horse into battle show art and culture and appreciated by the Chinese audience.

As I have also said, WCK knives basically follow WCK empty hands, and there is no *true* set. What many modern day practitioners put together is often devoid of martial context in favor of crowd pleasing moves of dramatic entertainment. Real WCK knives should have an emphasis on stabbing, not chopping and slashing only - at least passed down from Yip Man. I think the early students of Yip Man all learned loose motions, then put together forms of their own (look at Wang Kiu vs. WSL vs. Chu Shang Tien for example), and others like William Cheung probably wanted more dramatic appeal in an Australian tournament oriented scene with the various flowers, spins, turns and jumps for dramatic appeal. I remember when GM Cheung first demonstrated the knives in NYC at Phil's place, and he said it "was a shorter version he created, as the traditional set is too long..."

I mean really, how many have gutted anyone with a set of knives? :)

So flip or not flip - that is the question? :confused:

Just my opinion.

chusauli
03-04-2009, 10:47 AM
not yet on the knives, but have seen them played with many times

because i am not on them yet, maybe this is pure ignorance - but here goes anyway:

i know many instructors like to use the bong sau to crach into people as a cover and tie up (a la Duncan Leungs SNT video). if the blades are meant to be an extension of the hands then by flipping the blade over would this not still be possible?

or for simmilar applications to lan sao.

or for an overhand blade strike from your attacker. some people may say you would just strike forward. IMHO that would be suicide, as the momentum would still bring the blade down on the head

FWIW, of my 2 instructors - my Dad does flip the blades, and i have never seen my present instructor do it

let me know how far of the mark i am!

Hi David,

Just wanted to answer your questions.

As I know from my study of weaponry (Chinese, Filipino, Western, Japanese and Okinawan), in general, the weapon is kept between you and your opponent. If you flip the knives, you have given up that advantage.

In FMA, if you drop your weapon and recover it reverse, you shouldbe able to defend yourself with it. That is why they train it reverse grip, but that is not ideal for them.

The Okinawan Sai or Japanese Jutte is not the Bart Jaam Dao. As I understand, the Jutte is not flipped from its wing. So the flipping of a truncheon like the sai (Tiet chek) may not have direct application to the twin knives.

As for WCK's knives, they were created during a time when gunpowder was king. The Siu Dao Wui (Small Knife Association) members used almost identical knives to ours. The knives were used against mainly the battlefield weapons of the time (spear, sabre, bayonet) and only used as a backup weapon. Although hunt1 thinks otherwise, let us examine the historical context. Even the British were surprised at how well the Chinese wielded the spear in the 19th century, and the spear was considered the King of weapons in China.

As I said, TCMA likes art in many places of a set, and devoids it of martial context, and having to show one's control of a weapon - flipping is showing how skillful one can wield it in lieu of actual martial context. Just as the flowers done with a Kwan Dao, and images of Kwan Gung stroking his beart, sharpening his knife, and riding a horse into battle show art and culture and appreciated by the Chinese audience.

As I have also said, WCK knives basically follow WCK empty hands, and there is no *true* set. What many modern day practitioners put together is often devoid of martial context in favor of crowd pleasing moves of dramatic entertainment. Real WCK knives should have an emphasis on stabbing, not chopping and slashing only - at least passed down from Yip Man. I think the early students of Yip Man all learned loose motions, then put together forms of their own (look at Wang Kiu vs. WSL vs. Chu Shang Tien for example), and others like William Cheung probably wanted more dramatic appeal in an Australian tournament oriented scene with the various flowers, spins, turns and jumps for dramatic appeal. I remember when GM Cheung first demonstrated the knives in NYC at Phil's place, and he said it "was a shorter version he created, as the traditional set is too long..."

I mean really, how many have gutted anyone with a set of knives? :)

So flip or not flip - that is the question? :confused:

Just my opinion.

kevin_vt
03-04-2009, 03:08 PM
there is no *true* set. What many modern day practitioners put together is often devoid of martial context in favor of crowd pleasing moves of dramatic entertainment. Real WCK knives should have an emphasis on stabbing, not chopping and slashing only - at least passed down from Yip Man. I think the early students of Yip Man all learned loose motions, then put together forms of their own (look at Wang Kiu vs. WSL vs. Chu Shang Tien for example),
I am wondering:
If Leung Ting was the last person who studied with Yip Man, and has all his films doing the forms, and his BJD form is "very good"(although I have no clue what it means) can we assume this is indeed the original BJD set?

kevin_vt
03-04-2009, 03:11 PM
What you see in that pic is a double Gan (plowing) Do. It's the knife version of the double gan sao. Here's a clip I threw together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tujQ1XUVWsI

Thank you for your sincere help!

kevin_vt
03-04-2009, 03:16 PM
Hoi Jong - Bao Dao - Wang Chong Gerk

Section 1: Chit Dao
Jip Dao, Seung Ma Huen Jaam, Tui Bo Tor Dao 3X

Section 2: Chi (Biu) Dao
Seung Ma Yee Ji Dao 4 X, Tun Hou Tor Dao 4 X

Section 3: Gaun/Jaam Dao
Seung Ma Tan Jaam 4 X - Tun Hou Gaun Dao 4 X

Section 4: Kwun Dao
Kwun Dao - Tiu Dao/Wang Chit - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Tor Dao 3 X

Section 5: Biu Dao
Mun Lou Dao - Chiu Dae Dao, Saat Dao - Tun Hou Gaun Dao 3 X

Section 6: Yat Ji Dao
Ha Sup Ji - Tout Dao, Seung Ma Tout Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Tor Dao 3 X

Section 7: Huen/Jaam Dao
Tor Dao - Chiu Dae Dao - Sheung Ma Chiu Dae Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Chi Dao 4X

Section 8: Sup Ji Dao
Sup Ji Dao - Chiu Dae Dao - Sheung Ma Chiu Dae Dao - Saat Dao - Tun Hou Chi Dao 3 X

Sou Sik

Could you help a bit?

Most of these Chinese terms are unfamiliar to me.

Can we put it into more readable format :p

May be even post some short video clip for the silly guys like me :)

Thank you Dr. Chu and everybody I learned so much from you!

Phil Redmond
03-04-2009, 04:39 PM
I am wondering:
If Leung Ting was the last person who studied with Yip Man, and has all his films doing the forms, and his BJD form is "very good"(although I have no clue what it means) can we assume this is indeed the original BJD set?
Baat (8) Jahm (slashing) Do (knife) in Cantonese translates into 8 Slash Knife. It refers to slashing the wrists, elbows, knees, and ankles. At least in TWC. I'm not sure what others teach.

Phil Redmond
03-04-2009, 04:40 PM
Thank you for your sincere help!
You're welcome. We all learn here.

Liddel
03-04-2009, 06:02 PM
I mean really, how many have gutted anyone with a set of knives?

Larry Jordon doesnt frequent this forum so im sure not to many peeps here couldn't answer that LOL including me :p

My Sifu - Sifu Yau Shung Ying told me time and time again the Kwan was the king of weapons etc... little legend about the head abbott being the man who was master of the kwan and he would teach only one person certain aspects as the person which was the person to replace him etc...

Aside from legend this is how my sifu and his teacher Sifu Lok saw the kwan too, as king of the weapons and man in his hands it was powerful. not such much now hes older and less able to put power in it but i could see why its got that reputation.

Although sifu got his BJD from WSL i ws taught by sifu that one half of the BJD forms lends to the pole or long range weapons and the other half lends to short range weapons etc and this was backed up by how we then moved from forms to Chi Do and sparring...

Interesting post about the other systems youve experienced Robert, cheers..

DREW

sanjuro_ronin
03-05-2009, 09:26 AM
Hi David,

Just wanted to answer your questions.

As I know from my study of weaponry (Chinese, Filipino, Western, Japanese and Okinawan), in general, the weapon is kept between you and your opponent. If you flip the knives, you have given up that advantage.

In FMA, if you drop your weapon and recover it reverse, you shouldbe able to defend yourself with it. That is why they train it reverse grip, but that is not ideal for them.

The Okinawan Sai or Japanese Jutte is not the Bart Jaam Dao. As I understand, the Jutte is not flipped from its wing. So the flipping of a truncheon like the sai (Tiet chek) may not have direct application to the twin knives.

As for WCK's knives, they were created during a time when gunpowder was king. The Siu Dao Wui (Small Knife Association) members used almost identical knives to ours. The knives were used against mainly the battlefield weapons of the time (spear, sabre, bayonet) and only used as a backup weapon. Although hunt1 thinks otherwise, let us examine the historical context. Even the British were surprised at how well the Chinese wielded the spear in the 19th century, and the spear was considered the King of weapons in China.

As I said, TCMA likes art in many places of a set, and devoids it of martial context, and having to show one's control of a weapon - flipping is showing how skillful one can wield it in lieu of actual martial context. Just as the flowers done with a Kwan Dao, and images of Kwan Gung stroking his beart, sharpening his knife, and riding a horse into battle show art and culture and appreciated by the Chinese audience.

As I have also said, WCK knives basically follow WCK empty hands, and there is no *true* set. What many modern day practitioners put together is often devoid of martial context in favor of crowd pleasing moves of dramatic entertainment. Real WCK knives should have an emphasis on stabbing, not chopping and slashing only - at least passed down from Yip Man. I think the early students of Yip Man all learned loose motions, then put together forms of their own (look at Wang Kiu vs. WSL vs. Chu Shang Tien for example), and others like William Cheung probably wanted more dramatic appeal in an Australian tournament oriented scene with the various flowers, spins, turns and jumps for dramatic appeal. I remember when GM Cheung first demonstrated the knives in NYC at Phil's place, and he said it "was a shorter version he created, as the traditional set is too long..."

I mean really, how many have gutted anyone with a set of knives? :)

So flip or not flip - that is the question? :confused:

Just my opinion.

Much truth here.
In my experience with Pekiti Tirsia and Inosanto kali, flipping is not very common at all, far from it, unless you are showing off ;)
My JMA influence of blade work is from the Yagyu Shinkage ryu line and there is no flashiness at all in their tanto work.
Any flipping done is when its appropriate to use the butt of the tanto.
Anytime you are not cutting or stabbing, what are you doing?

chusauli
03-05-2009, 09:43 AM
I am wondering:
If Leung Ting was the last person who studied with Yip Man, and has all his films doing the forms, and his BJD form is "very good"(although I have no clue what it means) can we assume this is indeed the original BJD set?

Its a silly assumption. There is no "true", "authentic" or "original" set. All we have is what Yip Man passed down to individuals, who retained it as a set of sorts. Again look at the similarities of WSK, Wang Kiu, TST and you get an idea of the common elements that Yip Man taught. Notice the juxtaposition of the moves varies from set to set (just like the Jong). Yip Man worked on his set as he taught - there was no Chan Wah Shun version or Lung Bik version of it.

Of course, there is a big difference between MSU and what Yip Man taught.

IMO, the Bart Jaam Dao basically consists of 4 elements:

Dang (Ward Off)

Chit (Slice)

Saat (Finish)

Sou (Withdraw)

If you know Kenjutsu or Iaijutsu, you understand my words above. Dang is receiving the attack (Kwun, Gaun, Yee Ji, etc.), which follows Chit (initial wound), then Saat finish by chopping or stabbing - as cuts may wound, and can be lethal, but they are not finishing strokes like stabs or chopping off limbs, or neck, and finally, Sou, to finish and remain mindful. It is the same as in Iaijutsu or Batto jutsu.

This is the heart of the knives.

My terminology after study of the WCK knives the last 25 years.

chusauli
03-05-2009, 09:56 AM
Could you help a bit?

Most of these Chinese terms are unfamiliar to me.

Can we put it into more readable format :p

May be even post some short video clip for the silly guys like me :)

Thank you Dr. Chu and everybody I learned so much from you!

As a Chinese medicine doctor, martial arts is just a hobby for me. I'm semi-retired in my martial arts career now. In my youth, I was crazy to travel about and search for answers to my questions. I bought every book or magazine in Chinese and English, just to get a small piece of knowledge.

Where are you? What lineage do you follow? How long have you learned WCK? Doesn't your sifu must know the knives for you to learn? We cannot have people in your lineage lose face if they don't know the knives; then for you to go to an outsider to your family to get knowledge is also a lack of face for your family.

These are the terms I teach with. WCK needs to be taught properly, not learned in video or youtube, or forums. To teach on this forum is very limited.

We are having a discussion with everyone, not private one on one. If you are sincere, you can come to learn or find someone to learn. An internet format is not a place to really learn.

chusauli
03-05-2009, 10:21 AM
Baat (8) Jahm (slashing) Do (knife) in Cantonese translates into 8 Slash Knife. It refers to slashing the wrists, elbows, knees, and ankles. At least in TWC. I'm not sure what others teach.

Only in TWC...

In TWC, there is some legend of a Shaolin monk carrying knives for non-lethal self defense and aiming at the above mentioned areas.

Legends being what they are, sometimes don't hold water. Monks may have a razor to shave their head, but are forbidden weapons, especially if taken the 5 precepts and bodhisattva precepts. Also, slashing at tendons was crippling and perhaps fatal at those times and do not show a compassionate nature of a Buddhist. So I do not think monks would carry knives of the sort, nor would they call it Baat Jaam Do.

A more likely meaning of why Yip Man named it "Baat Jaam Do" (the "Bart" is Australian) is because in 8 directions, the knives can chop or slash. The "Baat" is also a good name and considered auspicious as it is a ****phone of "Faat" (as in Faat Choy). The Jaam movement is actually chopping in common lingo (as opposed to martial lingo), and of course Do refers to knives.

Hope this helps.

chusauli
03-05-2009, 12:03 PM
My Sifu - Sifu Yau Shung Ying told me time and time again the Kwan was the king of weapons etc... little legend about the head abbott being the man who was master of the kwan and he would teach only one person certain aspects as the person which was the person to replace him etc...

Interesting post about the other systems youve experienced Robert, cheers..

DREW

Hi Drew,

Thanks for sharing.

Lately, I have been finding Kung Fu legends particularly silly. To quote a Hung Ga brother of mine, Dixon Fung, "Kung Fu legends are kind of stupid, they tell you stories that make no sense, insult your intelligence, and you're supposed to believe them...!"

Why would a head abbott (presumably Buddhist) only want to teach a replacement or even need a weapon? If we look at facts, holding secrets teach attachment, which is against Buddhism. Using weapons violates the precepts. Why does a monk need a weapon? And what connection of this abbott and pole work? And finally, we say in China that the SPEAR is the king of weapons, not the pole. (Of course, the pole is the spear shaft...)

See? My Hung Ga brother made a lot of sense...

Liddel
03-05-2009, 06:52 PM
Lately, I have been finding Kung Fu legends particularly silly.

Ohh i agree, i only really pay lip service to all the legends... cause there are so many :o.

And when sifu said the Kwan was like a machine gun and the BJD is like a hand gun i didnt take that litterally :p

Robert or Paul - in your experience of the other weapons systems was there any cross over in footwork etc or anything totally different than VT / BJD ma ?

Curious about the details..

DREW

Phil Redmond
03-05-2009, 09:13 PM
Only in TWC...

In TWC, there is some legend of a Shaolin monk carrying knives for non-lethal self defense and aiming at the above mentioned areas.

Legends being what they are, sometimes don't hold water. Monks may have a razor to shave their head, but are forbidden weapons, especially if taken the 5 precepts and bodhisattva precepts. Also, slashing at tendons was crippling and perhaps fatal at those times and do not show a compassionate nature of a Buddhist. So I do not think monks would carry knives of the sort, nor would they call it Baat Jaam Do.

A more likely meaning of why Yip Man named it "Baat Jaam Do" (the "Bart" is Australian) is because in 8 directions, the knives can chop or slash. The "Baat" is also a good name and considered auspicious as it is a ****phone of "Faat" (as in Faat Choy). The Jaam movement is actually chopping in common lingo (as opposed to martial lingo), and of course Do refers to knives.
Hope this helps.
I did say in TWC. ;) Also, I never used Bart. There are no "r" sounds in Cantonese. Also Jaam can mean slash as well as chop.

Shadow_warrior8
03-05-2009, 09:35 PM
Did our bart cham dao come from white crane double daggers 白鹤双刀/ 鹤翅双刀 ?

Found this to share

演練、講解:蘇瀛漢 永春白鶴拳代表人物。
  《鶴翅雙刀》是永春白鶴拳派中別具一格風格獨特的南派武功器械。它全長約50釐米,兩把重約一公斤。護 手勾和護手圈合稱太子手,因其刀身似鶴翅,故名鶴雙刀。鶴翅雙刀是攜帶方便、使用靈活、實用性強的隨身短兵 器。刀法有挑、砍、抹、鑿、劈、削、點、纏抽、攪、刺、戳、架、格、截、絞、展、捺、纏頭裹腦、舞刀花等。 使用中刀法密集、攻防兼備,常反握刀柄,前臂緊靠刀背做各種攻守動作,又可出其不意地收繳對方 的器械。
  
Two Crane Wing Broadswords is a unique style south Wushu weapon in Yongchun Bai He Quan.It is about 50cn long,about 1kg together.The armauard hook and the loop are called Taizi Shou.Because the broadsword looks like the crane wing.so it is called Two Crane Wing Broadswords.Two Crane Wing Broadswords are the practcal short weapon that you can easily carry,agilely use.There are some broadsword techniques,such as ,hook,hack,mop,chisel,chop,pare,point,twine,draw,s tir,thrust,stab,protrude,block,cut twist,extend,press,twine the head and wrap the brain,brandish the broadsword,and so on.During the movement,there are so many the techniques,both with attack and defence.Normally,the broadsword handle is held in reverse.Stick the broadsword back with the forearm,then attack and defend,in another way,take the opponent's weapons without his consciousness as well.

Here's the form
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTgzNTQzNjA=.html

kevin_vt
03-05-2009, 11:55 PM
Its a silly assumption.
Not at all silly. Leung Ting was the last person to study from Yip Man. Yip Man decided to make videos of his forms as he knew he will not last longer. His BJD, shared to Leung Ting, must have been the ultimate collection of his knowledge on this subject. You said "very good" to everybody, not just me. What do you mean? Why WSL, TST or Wang Kui BJD are not "so good"? What is missing from them?

WCK needs to be taught properly, not learned in video or youtube, or forums. To teach on this forum is very limited.
I am not trying to learn from the forum :) - just to compare different views on the BJD form. It's cool, don't you think? :)

Shadow_warrior8
03-06-2009, 02:50 AM
i have some - purely to motivate me into training harder to get to the knives!

however - my Dad thinks that they are wrong, as they dont hold together as one before splitting

these are the ones i have
http://www.woodendummies.co.uk/p-27-koo-sang-carbon-steel-butterfly-knives.aspx

very nice, heavy, quality feel to them

also:

someone hooks the knife at you, roundhouse style. with a punch you could bui sau into the crook of the elbow to stop the strike. a simmilar motion with the knives would take the knife way past the 'zone'. however a flipped blade could allow the 'bui sau' to be performed in the same manner, while still cutting them?

You have really cool knifes. These are the ones I want

I am going to china this year. Gonna see if I can get another pair besides the ones designed by Yip Chun which I already have. The blood groove is cool. If i cant then I have to order from UK.

Here's sharing more knife forms, they rock....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fta9lg3_bAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_fOtzfSmXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHr2amia4fI

bennyvt
03-07-2009, 02:55 AM
leung ting wasnt the last guy so dont believe all the crap that peole tell you. He got the videos cause he had lots of money and yip man was very sick and had many vices (not polite to talk about). The last guy to learn the knives was on the IVTAA conference video and he says this is what I leanrt of yip man, then he section he learn off someone else has all the flipping stuff.
And I heard that Yip man taught lok yiu the pole and leung sheung the knive and everyone learnt it off them. He would show concepts and applications in a disscusion but didnt really teach the form to anyone after them. The story of WSL was the same. he was hassling YM to learnt the knives and finally he said alright here. He did it with chop sticks thinking WSL would forget. The next day WSl went to him and said "is this it" and did the form. YM then said alright.
And Robert, I know we all pretty crude here in australia but watch the aussie bashing, we will send a kangaroo to beat you up.

Liddel
03-07-2009, 07:22 PM
Not at all silly. Leung Ting was the last person to study from Yip Man.

This is highly debatable. Tings certainly good at marketing IMO....

My sifu learnt from Lok Yiu from the ground up. Only later did he save enough to pay the old man for personal instruction...at which point he was asked by Ip to call him Sifu not Lok Yiu, but my Sifu always calls Sifu Lok his Sifu/teacher if asked by an 'outsider' if you will.

Ting however, not so much...Leung Sheung was his teacher.

Many people payed for tuition from Sifu Ip... outside of thier actual training under an assistant.

I dont want to be a LT hater but from my own look around at his material its obvious there are some inconsistancies even in his own published books :rolleyes:

So regardless of what your personaly opinion is of the man have you seen him applying the BJD (not just the form)
Anyone got links perhaps ? Ive never seen application from him myself.


What do you mean? Why WSL, TST or Wang Kui BJD are not "so good"? What is missing from them?

I doubt Robert was saying WSLs BJD was 'not so good' its well known it was the opposite...unless hes talking about the progression or changes in just the form, cause his use of the BJD was well known.


I know we all pretty crude here in australia but watch the aussie bashing, we will send a kangaroo to beat you up.

Nothing wrong with Aussie bashing Benny, well....for a kiwi like me that is LOL

Australasia represent ! :p

DREW

bennyvt
03-08-2009, 06:28 PM
hey liddel
I suppose we give you enough sheep jokes to let some come our way.
Can you comment on lok yiu learning the pole and leung shueng the knives. I was told this was yip's way of making sure that they had people that had totally mastered the weapons.

Katsu Jin Ken
03-08-2009, 07:34 PM
IMO ive not learned the knives yet but to me, the knives look like they teach alot of footwork that arent neccessiarly emphasized in the forms, like retreating while taking an angle, and techniques like huen sau seem to be used extensively as well as simotanious block and striking techniques. I would be way off base here i dunno????

kevin_vt
03-08-2009, 11:25 PM
hey liddel
I suppose we give you enough sheep jokes to let some come our way.
Can you comment on lok yiu learning the pole and leung shueng the knives. I was told this was yip's way of making sure that they had people that had totally mastered the weapons.

Your posts are very interesting. Who told you this story?

bennyvt
03-09-2009, 02:38 AM
My teacher.
I dont mean they didnt learn the other weapons but they learnt the weapons first so yip sort of sent the other students to learn the whole form from then he was used more of a sounding board, like " I think it could be used like that" and yip would either agree or criticise.

kevin_vt
03-09-2009, 03:07 AM
Who is your teacher? Obviously he is a very knowledgeable sifu

LSWCTN1
03-09-2009, 06:13 AM
i think someone mentoned earlier that Weng Chun dont flip the blades?

http://www.ck-vt.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=13

Cheng Kwong, one of the gatekeepers (and more prominent members) of the Weng Chun branch of our tree seems to flip the blade.

Chu SiFu:
thank you for your insight into the blades, much appreciated.

Everyone:
i am interested in the crashing bong sau movement though - can this be done with the blades whilst flipped?

what about protecting from an overhand strike too, would you not use the blades?

kevin_vt
03-09-2009, 06:27 AM
Flipping the blades is almost impossible with heavy bart cham do. It is against the principle never to point the edge against yourself. It does not work against a heavy pole either. Why to waste time to discuss it? There are other aspect of BJD not covered yet

Shadow_warrior8
03-09-2009, 07:30 AM
Flipping the blades is almost impossible with heavy bart cham do. It is against the principle never to point the edge against yourself. It does not work against a heavy pole either. Why to waste time to discuss it? There are other aspect of BJD not covered yet

Whose principle is that? Where is it in kuen kuit?
So many lineages like Hung Kuen, White Crane, Weng Chun, Wingchun, use the reverse grip.
Who can you speak for?

Its a fact, some lineages of kungfu do use the reverse grip
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTgzNTQzNjA=.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fta9lg3_bAA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_fOtzfSmXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHr2amia4fI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmLfOyyUEh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31SSrqwyPv0

Why post something negative about a authentic, traditional move that has been respected and accepted in the kungfu forms for years?

If its impossible why does almost 90 years old Yip Chun make it look effortless?
Why do Master Lo man kam make it look easy?
Having learnt Master Yip Chun's form, I can say this single move, takes months to master and its easy to see who has the wrong basics from change of front to reverse grip.

Is the Bart Cham Dao only against the pole?

What weapon then can you use again a 12 foot pole? Front grip or reverse grip, I can surely say, it doesnt matter.

hunt1
03-09-2009, 09:12 AM
If its impossible why does almost 90 years old Yip Chun make it look effortless?
Why do Master Lo man kam make it look easy?
Having learnt Master Yip Chun's form, I can say this single move, takes months to master and its easy to see who has the wrong basics from change of front to reverse grip.


Not to long ago I had the chance to ask a very well known student of Yip Man why his early students had the reverse grip in the knife form he taught but a later student of his did not. ( Early meaning this students students not Yip Man students). Three of the reasons he gave were some people had a hard time getting it so he just took it out ; he didn't see the point in arguing with people that didn't think it was something worthwhile to learn and Yip Man taught both ways so no big deal.

Shadow_warrior8
03-09-2009, 09:18 AM
If its impossible why does almost 90 years old Yip Chun make it look effortless?
Why do Master Lo man kam make it look easy?
Having learnt Master Yip Chun's form, I can say this single move, takes months to master and its easy to see who has the wrong basics from change of front to reverse grip.


Not to long ago I had the chance to ask a very well known student of Yip Man why his early students had the reverse grip in the knife form he taught but a later student of his did not. ( Early meaning this students students not Yip Man students). Three of the reasons he gave were some people had a hard time getting it so he just took it out ; he didn't see the point in arguing with people that didn't think it was something worthwhile to learn and Yip Man taught both ways so no big deal.

Thanks for sharing that info.
In my experience, this is the trademark of traditional TCMA masters I have met, they dont bother with students who dont bother to behave like one.

Liddel
03-09-2009, 04:33 PM
Can you comment on lok yiu learning the pole and leung shueng the knives. I was told this was yip's way of making sure that they had people that had totally mastered the weapons.

Sorry Benny cant say, i was never told specifics in that regard, meaning Ips intentions.

I was told that Sifu Lok was just drawn to the Kwan and that because of his smaller stature it did wonders for his horse and power base for empty hand fighting....

In those days im told the early students were of course the asssitants and they trained everyone from the ground up under the head of the school, so it makes sence one guy was the kwan guru and another the BJD i guess....


If its impossible why does almost 90 years old Yip Chun make it look effortless?

After years of training anything you should be able to make it look easy... to me its not whats easy to do in forms but apply in fighting - has he used it in Chi Do or sparring with the kwan - did its use makes sence to you and was it effective ?

Thats the question and youll then find your own answer, different or not to others.


Why do Master Lo man kam make it look easy?

Same as above ?


Having learnt Master Yip Chun's form, I can say this single move, takes months to master and its easy to see who has the wrong basics from change of front to reverse grip.

Care to comment on the actual support and timing used in Chi Do or sparring with a reversed grip...im curious ? oh and range which is where i have a hard time seeing it being useful... :rolleyes:


Is the Bart Cham Dao only against the pole?

Chi Do for me began with blade to blade so no IMO. :)


What weapon then can you use again a 12 foot pole? Front grip or reverse grip, I can surely say, it doesnt matter.

There are two standard sized poles, one for training and the other for fighting. The longer tends to be for training only where i learn.

When fighting longer weapons, range is extremely important so footwork and the range of your own weapon are paramount, flipping the blades effects both these important attributes....

Drew

chusauli
03-09-2009, 05:48 PM
Ohh i agree, i only really pay lip service to all the legends... cause there are so many :o.

And when sifu said the Kwan was like a machine gun and the BJD is like a hand gun i didnt take that litterally :p

Robert or Paul - in your experience of the other weapons systems was there any cross over in footwork etc or anything totally different than VT / BJD ma ?

Curious about the details..

DREW

IME, other weapons systems step laterally or out of the way. The WCK BJD moves in a lot and steps in at angles and steps out at angles, alternating footwork in a 45 - 60 degree facing to the opponent.

BJD also seems more limited in use of height - pole and spear systems tend to use high, middle, and low, as do FMA.

Hope this helps.

chusauli
03-09-2009, 05:56 PM
Not at all silly. Leung Ting was the last person to study from Yip Man. Yip Man decided to make videos of his forms as he knew he will not last longer. His BJD, shared to Leung Ting, must have been the ultimate collection of his knowledge on this subject. You said "very good" to everybody, not just me. What do you mean? Why WSL, TST or Wang Kui BJD are not "so good"? What is missing from them?

I am not trying to learn from the forum :) - just to compare different views on the BJD form. It's cool, don't you think? :)

"Ultimate collection" is your assumption. All knives sets under Yip Man have variations on central themes (i.e. Fak Dao, Yee Ji Dao, Kwun Dao, Gaun Dao, etc.). Its good when one can teach it well, and the student gains familiarity with the weapon. If you look at who develops finesse with the weapon, that is more personal ability. I did not say WSL, TST or WK "not good", those are your assumptions, again. Having learned a few variations and seen a few variations of the WSL knives set, I feel WSL himself was doing WIP. He was amongst one of the more skilled.

The earlier generation had some challenges, and variations on themes is prevalent - one may do low stance, other does a high stance, other does a shift, another does step and shift. All have their place in combat.

In the end, nothing is good or bad, they just are. Can one use it well?

Shadow_warrior8
03-09-2009, 08:04 PM
Sorry Benny cant say, i was never told specifics in that regard, meaning Ips intentions.
I was told that Sifu Lok was just drawn to the Kwan and that because of his smaller stature it did wonders for his horse and power base for empty hand fighting....
In those days im told the early students were of course the asssitants and they trained everyone from the ground up under the head of the school, so it makes sence one guy was the kwan guru and another the BJD i guess....
After years of training anything you should be able to make it look easy... to me its not whats easy to do in forms but apply in fighting - has he used it in Chi Do or sparring with the kwan - did its use makes sence to you and was it effective ?
Thats the question and youll the find your own answer, different or not to others.
Same as above ?
Care to comment on the actual support and timing used in Chi Do or sparring with a reversed grip...im curious ? oh and range which is where i have a hard time seeing it being useful... :rolleyes:
Chi Do for me began with blade to blade so no IMO. :)
There are two standard sized poles, one for training and the other for fighting. The longer tends to be for training only where i learn.
When fighting longer weapons, range is extremely important so footwork and the range of your own weapon are paramount, flipping the blades effects both these important attributes....
Drew

I would not be qualified to talk about Chi Dao of Bart Cham Dao because I was not trained in chi dao, just the forms. Sigung Ip Chun is old now over 80s, he doesnt really teach applications anymore-retired.

My knife fighting H2H training is from Japan

I am talking about the reverse grip and how we train it and why, not sure what you are asking here "actual support and timing"

Sure, since you have trained in it, please share your understanding of Bart Cham Dao Chi Dao, Long pole applications.

kevin_vt
03-09-2009, 11:48 PM
When fighting longer weapons, range is extremely important so footwork and the range of your own weapon are paramount, flipping the blades effects both these important attributes....
Well said man. Flipping is ok as a skill but I feel it unnatural with BJD. But this is my personal assumption of course


IME, other weapons systems step laterally or out of the way. The WCK BJD moves in a lot and steps in at angles and steps out at angles, alternating footwork in a 45 - 60 degree facing to the opponent.

FMA as well



"Ultimate collection" is your assumption.
Not at all. It is totally different but never mind. My advice to you is to say what you want to share "all" and not half. But it's up to you.

chusauli
03-10-2009, 09:09 AM
Well said man. Flipping is ok as a skill but I feel it unnatural with BJD. But this is my personal assumption of course

FMA as well

Not at all. It is totally different but never mind. My advice to you is to say what you want to share "all" and not half. But it's up to you.



WCK traps are fun, don't you think? ;) You set one up and see if one takes the bait. Your WCK is good kevin_vt, but be sincere. I have seen this game many times.

I have shared "all", not "half". My 4 concepts of the knives is the truth of the knives. The knives cannot leave Dang, Chit, Saat, Sou. WCK is formless. Why bother discussing forms? If your attainment inadequate, simply humble yourself and learn from someone. My job is not to release forms owned by others. I simply teach my own way.

You failed to answer my questions... Who is your sifu? How long have you learned WCK? Have you learned the knives? What is your level? What family or lineage are you? Does your family or lineage have the WCK knives?

"Mind made straight, it is neither moved by praise or blame", as Master Hsuan Hua said.

Shadow_warrior8
03-10-2009, 09:15 AM
.
the Bart Jaam Dao basically consists of 4 elements:

Dang (Ward Off)

Chit (Slice)

Saat (Finish)

Sou (Withdraw)

If you know Kenjutsu or Iaijutsu, you understand my words above. Dang is receiving the attack (Kwun, Gaun, Yee Ji, etc.), which follows Chit (initial wound), then Saat finish by chopping or stabbing - as cuts may wound, and can be lethal, but they are not finishing strokes like stabs or chopping off limbs, or neck, and finally, Sou, to finish and remain mindful. It is the same as in Iaijutsu or Batto jutsu.

This is the heart of the knives.

My terminology after study of the WCK knives the last 25 years.

Thanks for this Sifu Chu. I have heard from reliable sources on your expertise on weapons. Your post confirms it.
Grateful. :)

kevin_vt
03-11-2009, 04:00 AM
WCK traps are fun, don't you think? You set one up and see if one takes the bait. Your WCK is good kevin_vt, but be sincere. I have seen this game many times.
What you say is ridiculous.

kevin_vt
03-11-2009, 04:08 AM
Part of BJD of my lineage a bit modified:

http://sifuhenrik.blogg.se/2009/february/bart-cham-dao-med-sifu-donald-mak.html

I prefer Wang Kui though.

Liddel
03-11-2009, 04:56 PM
I would not be qualified to talk about Chi Dao of Bart Cham Dao because I was not trained in chi dao, just the forms. Sigung Ip Chun is old now over 80s, he doesnt really teach applications anymore-retired.

Ohh ok, fair enough man. But if thats the case do you still think its wise to comment on the practicallity of the reverse grip with the BJD if you only know how to hold them only.



My knife fighting H2H training is from Japan
I am talking about the reverse grip and how we train it and why, not sure what you are asking here "actual support and timing"

This would be where our opinions part ways because we are talking about different weapons yeah ?
A standard knife of course has different applications to the BJD. I could understand the reverse grip of such a weapon, not for the BJD though... so i get where your comming from now -

What i meant by asking about "support and timing" was to do with a reversed grip for the BJD. When or if the Do is turned around in a reverse grip your ability to take and redirect force is different to that of the normal grip - which is support and/or structure -

And when your grip is reversed your effective reach with the weapon is shorter (now only the length of your extended arm) which therefore changes the range at which you would use it for blocking or attacking.

Like an elbow - the range (reach) is closer than where you would punch with extended arm...

My stepping with the Do is mainly dictated by the space i want to maintain to effectively defend against another weapon and also to bridge/change into attack.

The angle/s i use in stepping relates to staying out of harms way while being able to land my own attacks - so with the reversed grip all this changes.

So im curious about those that do reverse thier grip when and where they apply it against other weapons and how strong / effevtive they find the DO in said grip ? :rolleyes:



Sure, since you have trained in it, please share your understanding of Bart Cham Dao Chi Dao, Long pole applications.

Thats a big ask man... some of what i wrote above should scratch the surface..... :o

In short - the BJD is a short range weapon - weapons fighting is drastically different to H2H. Its so serious that you can die from one attack-
For me the reversed grip is too risky and doesnt offer anything of value during wepons fighting.

Im a hobbiest and only sparr or simulate weapons fighting - but even then it seems useless. :o (for BJD that is)

Ive seen more silly things though - students doing 'Chi Do' in 'Chi Sao' range for instance...WTF ? :p

DREW

Liddel
03-11-2009, 05:02 PM
Part of BJD of my lineage a bit modified:

http://sifuhenrik.blogg.se/2009/february/bart-cham-dao-med-sifu-donald-mak.html

I prefer Wang Kui though.

Any Chi Do vids ? - keen to see application if possible :)

DREW

kevin_vt
03-12-2009, 05:37 AM
Any Chi Do vids ? - keen to see application if possible
I will make a video of myself and will post it