At what point does it become traditional?

[Ben Gash]

This really follows on from the recent Sai and Nunchaku threads, but raises a point that wasn't brought up there.
Why do we tend to ignore the development of CMA outside of China? Many of us study lineages that haven't been in mainland China for 60 years, and for some 150. There's been CMA in Malaysia, Taiwan and the Philipines for longer than styles such as Jow Gar and Hung Fut have existed (indeed, Jow Gar's founder learned northern Shaolin in Malaysia).
Now, if these schools adopted an indigenous weapon 150 years ago, surely it must now be a traditional CMA form? For example, I know a CLF Sai form from a Malay lineage. It's definitely a CMA form, but knowing the history it was almost certainly absorbed from Silat. So is it TCMA or isn't it?

[Judge Pen]

It's a good question and a subtext to several threads here. It's certainly traditional for your lineage, but it's not pure to the TCMA that still exists in China or the masters that left, but never adopted any indeginous weapons or techniques for the area that they located.

[MasterKiller]

There is nothing wrong with adding something to your skill set as long as you are honest about where it came from. The beef is usually when people rewrite history to make the extra stuff look like it's been there all along.

[Judge Pen]

Sure, but if a Chinese master adds a weapon such as sai, and yet it maintains the Chinese fundamentals isnt' it a Chinese form? Or is it something different? Not advocating, just asking.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Sure, but if a Chinese master adds a weapon such as sai, and yet it maintains the Chinese fundamentals isnt' it a Chinese form? Or is it something different? Not advocating, just asking. Chinese form for a non-Chinese weapon.

[Brad]

Yes, defenitely be honest where it came from! The local Hung Gar teacher teaches a few non-Hung Gar forms in his curriculum and tells you exactly where he got them too. Same with my first wushu coach, who would incorperate some Arnis into our training.

[stimulant]

Traditional

hmmmm hard question.

[red5angel]

this sort of goes along with a qustion I ask from time to time and never seem to get a satisfactory answer for.

You hear TMA guys screaming and yelling from time to time about so and so putting this or that into their art, or modifying it or changing it somehow. This comes up alot when people are arguing about what is good, what is traditional and what works. I've always thought it was a silly argument because what does it matter if you can make it work. If you find that such and such a tehcnique works really well with an art that didn't have it before, who cares? I imagine most of these arts have been constantly evolving for years in one way or another. Why get stuck on what was being taught hundreds of years ago?
The irony in my mind is that the one thing I really like about Bruce Lee's concepts was the idea of adapting it to you. What's so wrong with adapting an art to make it work for you?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
What's so wrong with adapting an art to make it work for you? Nothing, if you're honest about what you are doing. The line we're discussing is if you make all the changes and then insist your still doing it the old way.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel

You hear TMA guys screaming and yelling from time to time about so and so putting this or that into their art, or modifying it or changing it somehow. This comes up alot when people are arguing about what is good, what is traditional and what works. I've always thought it was a silly argument because what does it matter if you can make it work.

exactly.

[red5angel]

MK, I can understand that, but I think it generally goes ****her then that. Ever visit the WC forum? Mention to those guys your slipping in some boxing, or grappling and they freak out cause wingchun "has it all already". That's just an extreme example of course, other TMA peeps do this as well and it's just plain silly. What bugs me is the attitude like the guys who created the art already figured it all out, or didn't borrow anything from anyone else ever.
I've never heard of a martial artists even the TMA old guys, who didn't do some crosstraining into other arts for various reasons.

[MasterKiller]

No argument there.

Even Jesus cross-trained in Buddhism.

[red5angel]

I think I must be flash backing from my WC days. Those guys are real touchy about anything that isn't WC.....

[norther practitioner]

Those guys are real touchy

had a feeling that would come out of your mouth soon.:D

[red5angel]

ROFL@ NP!! **** you for good timing!!!

[norther practitioner]

After how much you talk about my mom and girl.. I figured I was due...

[red5angel]

After how much you talk about my mom and girl.. I figured I was due...


that's all MK dude. I think he's just signing in as me from time to time. I"ve seen your girl, I woudn't touch her with your *****....





















jk :D

[norther practitioner]

Whatever man.. you don't realize the quality I have there..:D



Oh, about when things become traditional..

When I say so.

I haven't told you guys this, but I am now the grand master of the pu style... pu is all encompassing. I have at least a fifth dan in every style.... and I am on a secret list of tenth duan masters in china (I'm the only one). So all of this goes back to me. When I see these snubs taking this from here, and that from there, I just sit back and laugh, because pu has all of it. chi blasts, no touch knockouts, incredible qigong that cures everything, third level training in Iron palm, kicks, hand strikes, qina, ground wrestling, throws (from all systems mind you), thrusts, flabby cheeks (like red five's girl), a full system of eye gouges, three thousand bees fly up yer peeter system, etc...

If you want to become first dan in a year, let me know. I have certificates, and throw my own tournies so my students don't go out and realize they suc... errr, kill anyone with there lethal techniques. A one time $100 membership fee, and $100/ month for the basic package to get started. $250/ month to go through instructor in training (available once you reach camo belt). $450/month to become a deciple (available once you reach cyan belt). and $1000/ month for being my servant.. errr I mean my right hand man who runs everything for me... err, I mean my top number one student.


Please mail checks payable to cash to:

1515 Yalsucas Dr.
Goldenrod, CO 90210

[MasterKiller]

Pu-Doo!

[red5angel]

I think NP is Master of Pu-doo!

[rogue]

Traditions are funny things. Most of the "traditions" of karate come from Europeans training the Japanese military at the turn of the 19th century. Think about the really good martial artists, they respected their past but were never slaves to dead traditions.

[Vash]

The correct has a pulled a Tito on rogue.

I rail against "tradition" (re: Tradition is What? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25328) , Tradition, Martial Arts, Act 3 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26872) , all in the JKD Forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=10) ) quite a bit, and I think I'm justified in my arguments. However, I'm more of a anti-cultural-retention guy than the techniques and methods of previous generations.

The oldest tradition in the martial arts should be evolution. But, since this ain't an exact science, we need to have a touch stone for this.

[Fei jiao]

FYI Sai is not exclusively an okinawan weapon. It actually exists in Fukienese White Crane.

[red5angel]

we need to have a touch stone for this.

and what would that be?

[Merryprankster]

as soon as:

1. they stop sparring

2. a small asian man teaches it

3. there is no documentation

4. the mechanics or "energy" cultivated are unique and 'special'

5. it takes years to become effective


it becomes traditional

[MasterKiller]

:rolleyes:

Sure was peaceful around here while you were convalescing....

[Banjos_dad]

When I was studying Okinawan Shorin-ryu the sensei told us that there was no naturally occurring metal on Okinawa and that they had to trade for metal tools or bladed weapons from traders from south China, which is closer to the island than Japan.
So although the sai didn't originate on the island, today what could be more traditional than an Okinawan sai form...it's as traditional as the tonfa, the nunchaku, etc.

It's hard to pin down what is traditional isn't it. Is it like what's pornography--"We can't dfine it but we know it when we see it."

Traditional: training barefoot in karate.

Is Capoeira a traditional art? Why?? Why not???

To capoeirists :confused: it's traditional. Would it be to us? Probably not. Why? We follow a different tradition.

[Merryprankster]

oh get off it. i'm ****ing around. this question was BEGGING for that answer, just like bjj looks like rough gay lovin.

[red5angel]

It's hard to pin down what is traditional isn't it. Is it like what's pornography--"We can't dfine it but we know it when we see it."

not really, porn is easy - it's media carrying sexual content with the intent for sexual gratificatio nof the user.
Traditional is a tag people slap onto their arts when they want to sound official. Like somehow because their art has been around and "untouched" for centuries makes it any better then anything else. Most of the time a traditional art has it's traditions.


Is Capoeira a traditional art? Why?? Why not???

one could call it that since it's been around for a while and has it's traditions.

[Banjos_dad]

Thanks N_P for revealing Pu-do. I was searching for the ultimate martial art.
If I study your art and complement it with The Dim Mak, I should really be hot stuff, don't you think.
What would happen if it fell into the wrong hands...
:mad: :mad: :mad: :eek: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[red5angel]

just like bjj looks like rough gay lovin.


well atleast you finaly admitted it!! :D

[Merryprankster]

**** yeah. so does wrestling.

its also boring as hell to watch if you don't know what's going on--and sometimes, even when you do.

[Vash]

Originally posted by red5angel
and what would that touch stone be?

The technical training methodologies of the previous instructors in our particular systems.

As for the training barefoot being traditional in karate . . . kinda sorta. Check out some of the pictures of Motobu Choki in his book, Watashi no Karate-Jutsu. He's wearing those slipper-shoe thingies whilst doing Naifanchi di (kata). I think it's a good idea to do karate barefoot sometime. It helps the instructor check your footing, make sure you're not flat-footed, and encourages foot-fetishism in the training hall . . . :eek:
But, I also train my karate whilst in shoes, particularly when I train outside. I wear shoes more than I don't, so it makes sense to get good at wearing them in a fight.

[Banjos_dad]

We trained in shoes sometimes too, but outside. Sometimes they had us wear more restrictive clothes.
I wasn't saying that doing karate in shoes diminishes anyone's validity, but pointing out that training unshod in a dojo and also fighting with bare feet is conventional in karate. It's sort of a tradition. I'd venture to guess that more people train barefoot in karate when they're at class, than don't.
I should have thought it through a little more. Thanks for not beating me up about the shoe thing, Vash, sir. B_d

[Vash]

I didn't think you were questioning the validity of that type of training. I was thinking more that tradition is only what you learn.
I like training both ways, but I go more barefoot than with shoes.

[rogue]

You guys don't consider BJJ traditional? It fits the definition of traditional martial art better than most, and is a good guide for being traditional.

[SevenStar]

It's a semantics thing...modern training methods, lack of formality, competition venue, etc. are factors that lump arts like bjj and thai boxing into the modern arts category.

[apoweyn]

Is Capoeira a traditional art? Why?? Why not???

To capoeirists it's traditional. Would it be to us? Probably not. Why? We follow a different tradition.

I think most people would consider capoeira a traditional art. But even within capoeira, you've got traditional (angola) and modern (regional).