How far has UFC moved from NHB?

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi all - just a question I'm mulling over, don't really have a set opinion as yet.

Obviously I appreciate that there are a bunch of rules in UFC that were implemented primarily to sanitise the sport enough to allow it to survive - I'm not taking away from the guys that fight, they all impress me for doing what I don't want to (or need to)

What I'm getting at is this - in the original UFC's the full range of combat was allowed apart from gouging and biting. Headbutts, kicking a floored opponents, strikes to the groin etc were all allowed

Now there are so many rules that one might question the validity of the sport being marketed as gladiatorial - my definition comes to this: when the rules that are in place intercede the natural flow of the fight, then it is no longer a fight in the sense of something we can draw parallels too in the real world. (this is just an idea rather than definite opinion)

for example - no kicks to the head of a downed opponent - we see the farce of people having their legs kicked because the rules prevent the natural flow.

or

no headbutts - this massively affects the grappling that goes on because by tieing up the arms of your opponent you render him defenseless. In UFC 1-5 the headbutts and strikes made it a far more dangerous place to be

Anyway - interested in discussing, no agenda here, just some thoughts

[Knifefighter]

Absolutely, there are many more rules today due to the bureaucratic demands of trying to have a sanctioned sport. However, the skill and conditioning of the fighters in these events has evolved to the point where they more than make up for the additional rules. There are many in the MMA community who feel that people who dominated in the original UFC's would get beat by many of today's fighters, even under the old rules.

As far as "the real world", there are always some parallels in terms of techniques, strategies, tactics, etc that can be drawn. Obviously, the more rules, the fewer parallels... But even a real world fight is not an ideal predictor of what a real world fight will be like the next time around under different circumstances.

[apoweyn]

UFC was never completely analogous to reality. As people love to point out, there are no weapons, broken glass on the mat, friends waiting to jump in, etc.

Further limiting the range of techniques does increase the gap between UFC and reality. But the fact remains that UFC does have a decent number of representative techniques from the full range of... er, ranges. NHB may, literally, be a misnomer. But it remains the only format where good kickers, good punchers, good clinchers, good standing grapplers, and good groundfighters all have a decent number of options available to them within the same venue.

As a sport, that seems fair. As an instruction to those of us who use UFC to observe likely outcomes, it shows what happens when one guy with access to a large toolkit meets another guy with access to a large toolkit. The respective toolkits may not have everything. But they have enough to be illustrative.


Stuart B.

[backbreaker]

You guys are correct. I think the fights of today are much more competitive. Guys rarely lay on top of each other for a whole round, although alot of people criticize JJ for that, it really doesn't happen anymore. Even if a guy pulled gaurd 1 minute into the round ( not the smartest thing IMO especially with striking) John McArthy will stand them up. But, if people get too good of takedown defense the fans may take it for granted, and your average fan might not see the UFC as all that much different from boxing( maybe, I don't really know)

[Ray Pina]

Best thread on this subject to date.

[Oso]

during the latest event I don't think I heard 'NHB' uttered once but 'MMA' seemed to be used where they used to use 'NHB'.

their latest slogan is also, "As real as it gets" which is pretty true I think.

I for one am glad to see the direction the UFC has gone. I'd like to see it develop to the point where a UFC fighter has as much respect as a Pro Boxer. Not to mention the same money. That would be awesome.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I got to thinking on this after watching Frank Mir's first fight against that genetic freak Sims - Mir was on the deck and psycho Sims stamped on him. In terms of out and out fighting the call is that Sims would have won that - yet when limited within certain rules, Mir won.

As a fan and viewer I enjoyed watching Mir beat Sims in the return - but at the same time there's something to be said for raw power and strength. It might be fair to say that the rules favour the technicians - maybe a fighter like Baroni (much as I don't like the guy - like he gives a **** :)) would tear through the ranks if he had less restrictions. i.e. his spirit/demeanour is more able to take advantage of a more NHB setup

I think the place I really _do_ resent the rules is when both fighters are sprawled after a failed shoot and one guy is strong enough to push the other guy down. Likewise when a fighter goes for a double and gets punched and is on his knees with his arms locked around the other guy's legs. The positioning is perfect and natural to throw knees and yet the other fighter can't because of the rules. That's what I mean when I talk about the natural flow being interrupted.

When we get to headbutting in the guard, I think we get back to the old hackneyed argument of groin strikes, gouging etc and how they would stop an MMA guy - my take is this: Royce had headbutts available to him as well in the early days and used it far more effectively than anyone else because he was familiar with that weapon at that range. This might be more a case of the spirit/attitude of Royce though.

I don't think it's important to draw parallels from UFC to the 'real world' (whatever that is) - but maybe we are moving to a place where the criticisms levelled at boxing can be seen in a different light. For a long time boxing was slated as 'unrealistic' - yet I think any boxer who's fought in the ring has a good idea of how he reacts when in a fight/flight situation and when he gets a huge adrenalin dump. The rules and so on make it a sport as opposed to a pitfight - but it doesnt take away fron the ability or skill of the competitors. What the rules may do though is give a different victor to that found in a straight NHB setup.

Just thought and ideas - I keep making this caveat to try and avoid some flame war going off :)

**edited to try and link better - just got in from work and I'm getting a few beers in in preperation for Chelsea v Arsenal**

Paul

[Starchaser107]

How much money are the competitors of UFC paid, and is it worth the risk as opposed to Boxing where professional competitors recieve a fairly good wage?

[EarthDragon]

Star chaser, to answer your question although it may have changed my shrfu was on the board of directors and my kung fu brother Joel Sutton won UFC 6 & 7 for the alternate bouts and was paid just a few hundred dollars for both. Again this was in the begining of the UFC and not very popular for the main stream. Pay offs may have went up but in those days the tittle bout was under 5,000.

I also hosted Yoshiki Takahashi world pancrase champion in my school for the Niagra Falls fight which he went on to win the tittle but broke his hand in the proccess, he was paid 2,500

[EarthDragon]

forgot to attach file PLEASE READ!

[David Jamieson]

I'd like to see it develop to the point where a UFC fighter has as much respect as a Pro Boxer.

This is not going to happen all too soon.

Pro boxing is totally controlled by the various commissions and is sanctioned up the wazoo with old boys putting up big money to stable fighters.

ufc, nhb and the likes are infants in the area of getting their organizations together. Plus there are too many dough-heads out there willing to do it just to get on t.v like it's jerry springer or something!

the creme de la creme ufc fighters get good billing and they do have an "elite" group already. They just aren't as ensconced in sport and are regarded as more gladiatorial bloodsport than anything. More like sleazy entertainment in the minds of the public and ergo a limited demograph.

Boxing on the other hand has a cleaner image what with the olympic recognition, years and yeasr of events, generational in fact and overall more credibility in the public paradigm as a "sport".

Once the mindset changes, so to shall the value of nhb, ufc type events, but as long as they aren't as tight as the boxing commisions and organizations, that ain't gonna happen.

cheers

[David Jamieson]

as an addendum to my lastpost

I would say that the meme is probably not best started here.

Most people into martial arts except for the stinking hippy types are already onboard with bringing cred to martial arts through the big money organizations and events.

the last kick at it was in the infancy of martial arts popularity except the big mess up was that it moved towards teh entertainment industry instead of into the sport industry.

this had a lot to do with the people who were doing the major promoting at the time, IE: Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris and the guys who saddled up from the farm leagues to ride that train to success. Those tourneys didn't come close to the popularity that they could have had the lines not been blurred by all the mystical bunko mixed in.

Nowadays, it is starting to change, piece by piece, inch by inch and it is cool to be watching it.

all the fruitcakes are getting the smackdown

all the secret society guys are retracting back into secret society to save face, all teh performance arts guys are stepping up with the "arts" aspect and keeping it there and all the reality kids are going in that direction.

even contemporary wu shu knew they had to bust out with the san shou to get cred as "martial" arts because people knew that contemporary wu shu is for performance and not for fighting. It's not even a can of worms anymore and with the very likely intro at the 08 olympics we will likely see even more progression of the two aspects.

anyway...blah blah blah

cheers

[Starchaser107]

Earth Dragon , below $5000 sounds very low to me; what type of things would need to be put in place for it to be worthwhile for competitors.
I mean ,professional boxers earn a decent salary and don't need other careers to suppliment thier lives ,I assume, and live relatively comfortably. Why would a person subject themselves to serious injury or death without good compensation?
This question digressess from the question "how ufc has moved from no holds barred" , I'm sorry for hijacking , but thanks for the reply.

To answer the original question, I'd just have to say there's no such things as no holds barred competition with the introduction of rules. The modification of the ufc to be more complient with what the powers that be want only moves it further away from what it was originally. But in my opinion that original state was never no holds barred, perhaps a distant cousin.

[Oso]

good points, KL.

I think it's possible for it to move that way. Sure, it may take 50 years to do it but it's not without reason. And as you so succintly put it, MMA events will have to become palatable to the average Joe. But as big stars that are showing up to these events become more vocal about it I think it will help.

lol, I would lay 10 bucks that Liddel coulda had Juliette Lewis if he'd a wanted.

[David Jamieson]

well it's true, right now, ufc type events appeal to a limited demograph like i said.

that demograph consists of:

hard core martial artists with a leaning towards reality and scenario based training. even some trads like it but would like it to be more ...shall we say, scientific.

wwf wrestling fans like it because it is totally geared towards them.

monster truck rally fans (which are basically the same fan base as the wrestlers)

and that group described is no where near as mainstream as the millions and millions and millions of people who are aware of Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Roy Jones Jr, Sugar Ray Leonard, etc etc etc.

The Boxer is fully integrated into the mainstream idea of what fine stand up fighting is.

Tank Abbot scares people frankly and he reminds them of the guy quaffing ales and chili dogs while ****ing and growling at the next table in the truck stop they mistakenly stopped at to feed the family at on the camping vacation :D

Unfirtunately, that guy is probably a UFC fan. yuk yuk

cheers

[Oso]

i dunno, I think it has broken past the point you feel it is. maybe not by much but:

george clooney among others in the crowd???

mandalay sold out?

somebody's making money, it's just not the fighters yet.

which is wrong. I wouldn't step into the ring vs. Tito or Liddel for less than a helluvalotomoney.

[LEGEND]

The original UFCs was the closest to NHB 1 on 1 real fighting. No gloves...and the WORST...size mismatch! Another oddity was the hugh number of BROKEN HANDs within the first UFCs. Almost everyone had hand damage except the GRAPPLERs. Also SIZE DOES MATTER.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Star chaser, to answer your question although it may have changed my shrfu was on the board of directors and my kung fu brother Joel Sutton won UFC 6 & 7 for the alternate bouts and was paid just a few hundred dollars for both. Again this was in the begining of the UFC and not very popular for the main stream. Pay offs may have went up but in those days the tittle bout was under 5,000.

I also hosted Yoshiki Takahashi world pancrase champion in my school for the Niagra Falls fight which he went on to win the tittle but broke his hand in the proccess, he was paid 2,500

I'm sure they've gone up. Some guys from my club have fought in other events, like revolution, viking fight (denmark) and danger zone and gotten more than that. Also, there are some grappling only competitions aroung where the winner takes about 3,000...

[brassmonkey]

just watch pride if you wanna see a downed opponent get kicked

[Oso]

Is there a 'road to the UFC' ?

can anyone (seven??) list some of the mma events that would want to fight in if your goal was the UFC?

[Pork Chop]

Randy made in the ballpark of 120,000 to spank Tito. (from mma.tv)

If you want to fight in UFC you should probably have experience in at least one of the following:
King of the Cage
IFC
Gladiator's Challenge

Before any of those you'd probably need some experience in something more regional:
Combat Zone
King of the Ring
Battle at the Beach
...list can go on for a while
These are basically small regional shows for beginners to get some experience. Wouldn't say there's a huge amatuer circuit, but these events allow fighters to get experience before trying to go pro.

MerryPrankster can probably go a lot more into it seeing as how he's competed and is better friends with dudes like Jeff Ruth. :D

[Oso]

thanks, I'll look around and see if there's anything close to NC.

[Pork Chop]

King of the Ring is in virginia beach and that don't seem TOO far from you. They've got muay thai fights as well as mma.
Someone on this board has been talking about doing mma at that one, and I'm assuming it's amateur.
So yah there might be a bunch of us baltimore guys at the next one on the 8th of May.
There's another one in June and/or August too if May's too soon.
I wanna fight Muay Thai in that event.

[SevenStar]

yeah, start local and work up. most of our guys started here, then went on to events like revolution and danger zone. KOTC would be a good one.

[Oso]

:) whoa, I just wanna watch...check out my LT match video again...I got a long way to go before I'm ready to go 15 min or even 9.

but, I didn't like the LT rules or the headgear at all. IF I can change a couple of things in my life and get a good 3 month build up prior to it...I'd like to say I at least got my ass whupped in a mma fight.

[FatherDog]

There's dozens of local-level MMA shows in Jersey, too - Reality Fighting, Ring of Combat, BAMMA Fight Nights, etc.

As far as pricing - MMAWeekly has an article on the front page doing a breakdown of what fighters make in various promotions.

http://www.mmaweekly.com/this_week/news/4_wednesday.html