William Cheung's bjj tactic...??

[atsai]

http://www.lawingchun.com/BB%20Mag%204-99.gif

I saw this gif on the website of Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu LA chapter (http://www.lawingchun.com/). Now I don't really watch UFC nor do I train under sifu Cheung's organization--but does it remind you a "certain" bjj shoot-in tactic? Or am I just deluded?

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"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[old jong]

As far as I know about W.Cheung's method,It is what he calls an "entry technique"
I remember seeing Royce Gracie use the same move to close in on opponents!...Is it W.C.?...Is it BJJ?...Who knows! :rolleyes:

C'est la vie!

[rogue]

I've used the raised leg in Muay Thai, karate and TKD. The only downside is the opponent could hook the leg and drop you. A good idea know no style.

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

[greedy]

This gif shows Sigung Cheung performing an entry technique on a student. This move is probably the signature move of Cheung's 'traditional' WC (TWC), and it is the foundation of many of the user's techniques.

The idea is to close quickly and suddenly on an opponent, keeping yourself covered up with the upraised leg and the hands. performed correctly, the movement usually involved a quick close straight forward, and then a last minute veering off to one side to capture the blind side.

As far as I can ascertain, the entry technique has been taught by Sigung since at least the late seventies, well before the emergence of bjj as a popular martial arts form.

It looks a little rediculous sometimes, but it works a treat ;)

Cheers

[atsai]

I always wonder if it really works; guess it does. :) Better work on my entry tactics more...

That gif had been on that website for a while and I had thought that leg is a real kick. The purpose of the quick raise of the leg, is it more for moving forward w/ a big step, a feint, or more of both? I would imagine for tkdists, the leg is more of a feint w/o forward pressure (not a tkdist myself, but based on watching my friend the tkd bb).

Thanks!

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"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[greedy]

I'm sitting here trying to explain the entry technique without actually being able to show you!! The leg is brought up as a check, and forward movement is made without telegraphing.

Some people use the leg as a feint, but it's primary use is as a cover for possible front kicks during entry. you don't really use it too much for the movement, as a large movement of the leg forward tends to telegraph the technique slightly.

As to the forward movement itself, it is a little difficult to explain, as it depends on what you intend to do as you enter. The depth of entry of the technique varies, as does the angle of the 'off center-line' movement.

I've just read back over this post, and it is unbelievably confusing. I don't know if I can explain this any better without showing you!! :D

Cheers.

[tnwingtsun]

Although I am Sifu Emin Boztepe's student
and I do not consider William Chueng
my Sigung the past is the past,water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.
Our Wingtsun is somewhat different than
William's but we all come from Yip Man.
What I see here appears to be the universal
WT/WC/VT response to any attack,weather it
be a grappler,wrestler,boxer,karate man, ect.
Thats to advance with hand and foot.

So that being said,William is doing Wing Chun!!
Not even a hint of bjj!!
I've never met William Chueng,he might be a nice guy!,not my place to judge him,this may sound strange coming from a WT stylest but what we have here is CMA(WT/WC/VT) basic concepts,give
credit where credit is due..
Good luck wit your training WC guys!! ;)

[tnwingtsun]

Rabbit was cute.....
er...ahhh........
got any nude pics of Britney??? :D

[benny]

what happens if the person suddenly steps back and then in you would be way on the back foot with no space to move. jumping on one leg. pogo wing chun. i think he got confused wirth the saying" if you kick you step" wich means simply that if you need to kick then usually you use the kick as the step( most times if you kick you need to step to hit, range etc)

[mun hung]

I think William Cheung's entry technique is quite interesting and could definitely work if given the right opportunity. I believe it is still Wing Chun and not BJJ. We do something similar in our school to both cover and gain in on an opponent. A bong gerk and a kwan sau together. It's the first technique on our website at www.geocities.com/wingchunschoolnyc (http://www.geocities.com/wingchunschoolnyc)

[atsai]

Yes, that website, I do recall seeing similar techniques on your site (in the "techniques page"). My impression was that it's suppose to develop into a kick (still am a beginer in wc).

Do other wc/wt/vt schools use this as an entry tech/tactic?

greedy,
Thanks for the explanation..., I can somehow visulize it. :) IMO, as the leg lifts, the opponent, not knowing the technique, can be fooled thinking it's some kind of front kick (I know I was "fooled").

tnwingtsun,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>got any nude pics of Britney???[/quote]

No, but I'm currently working on a scheme to sell Britney Spears' bathwater on ebay.com; anyone in? :D :D

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"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[Inquisitor]

benny:

If I understand your post correctly (and I may have misunderstood), I think you aren't visualizing the technique correctly. The purpose of lifting the front leg is to cover against a possible kick from the opponent (from what I see, it allows for one to more easily apply the stop kick, especially since one is moving closer to the opponent). It is not a jump, hop, or dramatic movement forward. If the opponent backs up (which is very possible), then one need simply to keep moving forward.

[old jong]

Remember I asked you If your school was related to W.Cheung?...I was aware of this technique by W.Cheung and when I saw your video about the kwan sau with the leg raised I thought it was the same idea!...It was just a coincidence. ;)

C'est la vie!

[Netfist]

between william cheung and leung sheung, our wing chun are very different. i do know how to appreciate a good wing chun teacher when i see one. william cheung is an owesome fighter, some of my sihings had a chance to meet him during the 80's.

personally i'd like to know if william cheung has any wing chun connection in china besides yip man's wing chun family. just curious!

[rogue]

Looking at it again, Cheung could catch one right in the nuts if the opponent was a descent kicker. I'd use that technique more up the middle than off to the side, but still a good one.

http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg

[benny]

the point of proper steping is not only to protect you against kicks but you should always be able to kick no matter what you are doing. if the bloke jams, your on one foot. not good Ving
tsun.
i have an old wc student at training and i know what the techniques is as when he first started he tryed it.

[mun hung]

I'm sure that William Cheung has a very good reason for doing things his way. What we do is pretty different and I would'nt really consider it an "entry technique".

Our technique is usually done with the arms in a kwan sau position and the leg covering the centerline with the option of doing a thrust kick. The weight of your body should be moving foward slightly as to maintain balance and give you better leverage in case you get jammed. Remember you're not just picking up your leg and freezing in the position either - you are constantly in motion moving towards your opponent. There are many different uses for this technique. If your opponent should fade back, you have a choice of either advancing still with the other leg up in a defensive nature (or kicking) till you close the distance, or stopping there and waiting for the opponent to come close enough for you to execute it again (or do something else). I am in no way claiming that this is the best technique on the planet, or that it will work for everyone. Nothing works without lots of practice and a good understanding of the application of the technique itself.

[greedy]

Rogue: What the picture doesn't show is that the knee actually covers the centreline, meaning that any straight-line kick aimed for the nuts should slide along the outside of the thigh of the upraised leg.

Cheers.

[Troy]

why doesnt he kick with that leg, at least then it would be doing something not just sitting in front of him, just looks like waste of movement to me.

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-

[mowtman]

Not to pick the scab from old wounds, but let us not forget that as William Cheung tried this entry on Dai-Sifu Emin Boztepe, Emin caught his leg and tossed him to the ground, which is exactly the weakness I see in such an entry.
You're much better off closing with an actual kick as opposed to simply raising your leg.

WT is the art of self-defense.

[Netfist]

people are quick to discount things they dont understand admittedly. i'm guilty of that myself on occassion. what gets me is when people make blanket statements regarding william cheung and they dont know enough of this man.

first william cheung is a much...much...more experience fighter and more senior than emin, william was already famouse and well respected wing chun fighter and leader in the world . and why would he want to fight a nobody?

perhaps we may not have opened our minds enough to relize just how and why we have gotten ourselves into this " dark ages of kung fu "?

right or wrong? i dont have a problem saying that i dont know for sure, but at least we should have shown some respect to our kung fu brothers and sisters as well our friends on the other side.

Netfist

[mowtman]

Here's the problem, I posted an actual account of why this entry is weak and of course the WC supporters come crawling out of the woodwork defending this man when I said nothing about his skills whatsoever.
Netfist, forgive us as it would seem by your statements that you know Cheung and have the inside info the rest of us lack. Please enlighten the group.
A little anal-retentive are we? Perhaps you should not be so defensive about a man I'm sure you know very little if anything about.
But on the side, the truth stings just a little much doesn't it brother?


WT is the art of self-defense.

[Netfist]

"the truth" ? , what's the truth? maybe william cheung is really the only man knows " the truth " about wing chun! scholars thought the world was flat and the atom was the smallest particle. i dont have a problem listening to other opionons and their views. am i the only one?

just for you, no i've never met william cheung and heard a great deal about him from my sihings and many kung fu brothers. who knows i might be able to see him on X'mas. please hate me for that. :( ;)

[mowtman]

How old are you...like 12? I never made any blanket statement regarding Cheung or his so-called "traditional wing chun" and simply made a factual observation regarding the technique. You seem to be bent on giving your ill-informed opinions on every topic there is regardless of the information you have about it.
Perhaps if you spent more time actually practicing and less time typing away on this forum you might actually have a clue as to what you are attempting to talk about.
The entry technique performed by Cheung is weak at best, and there are far more effective means of closing on an opponent. Of course your lack of any real fighting experience would probably lead you to believe that such a technique is foolproof.
He got dumped on his butt when he attempted this technique against a "nobody" as you put it, so just how effective do you think it might be?
You're very amusing, yet boring at the same time. Get some facts and an argument together then we can talk. Until then consider your adolescent ramblings ignored from this point forward.

Seems to me you're the one making blanket statements.


WT is the art of self-defense.

[old jong]

Come on guys,we are all in wing chun are'nt we?...Instead of fighting each others on little details of interpretation on no too important "techniques",the BJJ/grappling peoples are blasting kung fu in general on the main forum! :D :rolleyes: ;)

C'est la vie!

[rogue]

Yeah, you guys should be ganging up on me! I once defeated 20 Wing Chun guys without breaking a sweat. I just asked what their lineage was and sure enough they beat each other senseless.

Thanks Greedy, I didn't notice that. I kind of agree with you Troy, a knee would be nice. But I've bypassed using a kick to go for a head control myself.

<table>
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<td>
http://www.cda2.net/isshinryu/images/sumobuko.jpg </td>
<td>
Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour
</td>
<td>
http://www.fightingarts.com/magazine/graphics/goju-ryu08.jpg
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[This message was edited by rogue on 05-02-01 at 08:26 PM.]

[Troy]

a head control??
and why a knee a kick is far more effective than a knee

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-

[S.Teebas]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I once defeated 20 Wing Chun guys without breaking a sweat. I just asked what their lineage was and sure enough they beat each other senseless.
[/quote]

....lol

[Anarcho]

I looked at this thread the other day and thought about how nice it was that we were all getting along for once, and that the posters from various lineages were being respectful of each others' views on some lineage-specific techniques, without letting it degenerate into a slanging match.

I'd just like to say thanks to a couple of the guys who posted on the second page for restoring my faith in the inability of a lot of Wing Tsun/Wing Chun/Ving Tsun practitioners to transcend petty politics, and returning us to the level of the usual sh#tfights. I hope you're proud of yourselves, and the message you send the world about all of us.


Rogue: I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at that one...Touche.

[mowtman]

(Yawn) :rolleyes:

Your editorial on this thread is far from accurate, as it is all too clear who immediately took things into the realm of "politics".

I replied accordingly. Sorry if that ruffles your feathers there amigo.


WT is the art of self-defense.

[This message was edited by MoWTMan on 05-02-01 at 11:27 PM.]

[Netfist]

hi rogue,

how's everything?

what a workout! i was sweating buckets last night. lol, i only did my wing chun slt 20 times yesterday. so, you 're the man who defeated 20 guys without breaking a sweat. watch out i might bring my group of 7 dwarfs and snow white to jump you from behind, next time you wont be that lucky.

mind you! i might have my video with me to prove it. it's just a joke and hope you can take it.
see ya!

Netfist :D

[WCFish]

Sorry Rogue,
I just have to ask, why the picture of Gogen Yamaguchi? Is the other guy Chogin Miyagi?
I know that for many years the Goju Kai was not accepted by the Okinawin Goju schools, at least not as a legitimate goju school. However the 'feud' has died as far as I know and all parties have agreed to respect each other. This was due in most part to the example set by Yamaguchi, he only ever behaved as one would expect a Karate Master and shinto priest to act. He did not bicker or encourage such behaviour from his students, maybe wing chun could follow Goju's example. For the record Yamaguchi was also a yoga guru

[rogue]

Netfist, bring your 20 guys, BTW what's their lineage? :D Please dear God, don't let them all be from the same school.

The other fellow is Tatsuo Shimabuku, founder of Isshinryu.

As far as Yamaguchi picture, I've always thought he was very cool.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[Netfist]

rogue,

lol, we jumped you and dropped your butt on the ground and still dont know our lineage. well , we have a collection of videos for sale @ yohoo.com
Title is the snow white and 7 dwarfs wing chun adventure, make sure take off your sun glasses and dont confuse with debbie does dollas.

hate to say it, man, without you, the wing chun world is so boring! ;)

Netfist

[rogue]

We karateka are always the life of the party!

Sincerly,
Lampshade Rogue http://www.ultralounge.com/images/m_exotica_thumb.gif

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[tnwingtsun]

Welcome brother!!,
you east coast or west coast USA?? ;)

[handsome]

Rogue--Have you ever seen the Shaw Bro's movie--**The big boss from Shang Hai**? which's the true story about underground world boss Ma Wing-Jing used his KF to against 20 gangsters in the movie. I've beening wondering how could that be possible one man against more than 20 guys. But William Cheung did encounter such real life chanllege on the ship during his trip to Australia back in 60s. Sifu Duncon Leung was there as an eyewitness so that's possible in real life, one man against 20 men... my question to you is that how many kungfu men could be that good liked Ma Wing-Jing or William Cheung in real life? of course , LOL , besides Mr Rogue yourself,
my guess would be one out of million. :confused: ;)

Netfist--Are you from Ken Cheung- Patrick Au's Wing Chun lineage? Back in 85, I had a chance to met your Sifu Patrick Au and Ben Der in San Francisco. Currently I 've been practing my Wing Chun including lineages from Chris Chan and Willian Cheung. Later this year I would like to visit some of my Wing Chun brothers in bay area.
Good to see you here...!!! :)

[rogue]

It's easy, just make sure that all 20 WC men come from different schools and lineage. Just ask them what they're lineage is or their opinion of the Cheun/Boztepe fight and watch the fun begin.

Warning: After getting them fighting each other I once made the mistake of commenting on how Wing Chun looks like JKD. They all turned their attention back to me and if it wasn't for a lone BJJ blue belt who submitted each of them in turn I would have been dead. :D

No offense to the sifu, but as far as anybody else fighting 20 to 1 outside a Shaw Bros movie I'm very doubtful. Unless of course he was packing serious heat with some reloads.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

[panos]

I am Cheung's WC student. I also did WT for one year before joining a wc school. When i first saw the entry technique at a seminar i found something between no-good and ridiculous. Now that i've seen it a lot and more important i've tried to stop it i can say it really works.
technically , the previous comment is right. The raised leg is exactly on th centre. And it is not a hop or jump. It is used to close distance and gain contact with minimum risc. The raised doesnt just stays there like in muai thai. It raidy to kick any kick towards you and of course your hands are high an ready too.
now there is a philosophical aspect i would like to point. Yes this techique has very few dissantvantages (or many diss. if compared with any other WC techique.). Lets not forget that wc comes from a shaolin monk. Shaolins used to say that he how starts a fight has already lost.(mentally and phissicaly.) This was to insiniuate that when you make the start and try to close distance without making use of your opponets moves it is certain that you will have some weaknesses. But again maybe you will havw to do it sometime and if yes that is the best way to do it i think.

[handsome]

I've only learned some TWC for a short time, but i can tell you that William's footwork make sense to me. and I wish someday... going to Australia to study under William directly...and I'm always admire William's skill and his experience.
On a different topic, I've just received some emails from Hong Kong. It said there was a fight between Wing Chun and Bak Mei...it happened about 8 days ago in Fatshan China... a Bak Mei Sifu from SF got some broken rips and sent to hospital... there're still very high tension at this moment between Wing Chun and Bak Mei in China, its just an old traditional kung fu fighting in real life...God bless everyone... peace to all.

[greedy]

Handsome: It's always a good idea to come to the land downunder. It is a little bit difficult to get a lot of training time with Sigung Cheung as he is always jetsetting overseas for seminars and such stuff. We aussies do have an intensive training seminar coming up in a few months though. :D

[WCFighter]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to say hello to some fellow
TWC students that are part of the WWCKFA.

I've been training in TWC for 7 years, and I think
it is awesome.

In my teens I took karate until
my blue belt before we moved. In university I
took Shaolin White Crane Kung Fu in Montreal for
2.5 years. I found it a lot more sophisticated
than the karate I took. I then moved to Toronto
to start my working career, and I went looking
for a kung fu school. I found my current school.

I didn't know what Wing Chun was, but I quickly
found out how superior it was to my previous styles. On my first day, after class, some students of TWC found out that I had some
previous experience in other styles. One asked me
to attack him with anything, and I couldn't touch
him at all. I was hooked on TWC from that moment
on. I also learnt how to deflect attacks with
more consistency (using the center and central line theories) than the other styles I took before. Beforehand, I could hit pretty well, but
I was always at a loss when trying to deflect
any type of attack. You can't hit your opponent if you're laying on the ground unconscious!

Thank goodness for Wing Chun !!!


One day I hope to train for an extended period
of time at the WWCKFA headquarters in Australia
as well!


Train hard, fight easy.
Train easy, fight hard and die!

Cheers !

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

[greedy]

It's not a bad idea to come and train at the headquarters, mate. Sifu Dana Wong is an excellent teacher. Well worth the effort!

cheers

[handsome]

Greedy, WCfighter-- I have over 15 years WC training under 5 different lineages... Would it be possible for me to compelete TWC under William's headquaters in 6 months to a year??? Do they accept any living in student from oversea???
Just curious...

[greedy]

I believe that the TWC school in Melbourne trains full-time, but I haven't seen a live-in student there for a while. It doesn't hurt to rock-up and ask......

Experience in other forms of WC will definately help in learning TWC, but some of the footwork is a little different, so it may take a little while to get the hang of.....I know how hard it is to almost unlearn muscle memory.

Good to see some interest in TWC on the board, and a few of my TWC brothers out and about giving our views.

Cheers.

[FUJIYakumo]

yeah dana teachs all the classes in melbourne.
i dont think they have live in students anymore.

and afaik william doesnt teach any more. (i have poor memory). he is/was? going to ?california?? full time to do his erm.. meridian therapy... *cough*. he was retiring from teaching kungfu.. (or maybe thats after his next birthday... i forget....)

there is a clinic there in cali or something.. i'm all vague on memories of this right now...

-Stu, Lifestyle Wing Chun, Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.lifestylewingchun.com

[ATENG]

dang, all these william cheung students are gathering...come on, fellow leung ting students, lets show them up. hahaha jk. peace, fellow wing chun bros.

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[tnwingtsun]

I Study Bai Mei and Wingtsun and have yet to fight myself,but if my Wingtsun fist breaks
my Bai Mei side ribs I'm sure my Bai Mei
side would counter with a pheniox eye fist to the throat,if I survived the incounter with my self
I'd check into the closest funny farm for some
serious brain scans. :rolleyes:

[handsome]

Tnwingtsun--I'm not sure** the pheniox eyes fist** would work against WC... the famous Fatshan Bak Mei Grandmaster and his son were both got defeated by local Fatshan Wing Chun Camp two weeks ago, the father in comma and the son got some broken rips... thank God after few days in hosipital... they both survel... God bless!!!

[ATENG]

hey, do you have sources or any documentation for this story? like a newspaper article or something? thanks

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[handsome]

Ateng--Where were you guys??? Honeymoon to Tokyo or something... its all over in Fatshan and Hong Kong Wing Chun communities... I thought I was the last one to know. I've heard that same report from Hong Kong and Bay Area brothers. No, at this moment...this news is still within the underground world--MA world, not in public yet!!!
Warning: next time traveling to Fatshan... make sure dont seat next to a Bak Mei Guy... watch out for the pheniox eyes fist return... JK... :p

[edziak]

As a Wing Tsun practitionar that step looks very farmiliar to me. We call it mon gurk, witch means seeking leg. It's in the universal solution as tnwingtsun pointed out. Its a basic move that could be used for anything realy. As i understand it it's basic porpose is to shoot out and ocupy the centerline. Once you have the centerline then you can do any number of things.
So, in a way it is a kick, knee strike, leg sweep and a forward step because once you have the centerline all it takes is a small variation on in movement to get a diferent attack entirely.