Dim Mak?

[Knifefighter]

Wing Chun has dim mak?

I have seen that in several posts.

As in death touches?

[old jong]

My Wing Chun has nothing of this.

[Nick Forrer]

Mine neither

[Ernie]

does doing blindfolded chi sau with ice picks count :)

[old jong]

I don't know but,using the third eye to see through the blindfold is illegal!...;) It's CHEATING!!!! :mad: ;)

[PaulH]

You can experience this by learning to control the light intensity.
Of course you need a good Mac around before you can see him in the dim light if at all. Ha! Ha!

[Ultimatewingchun]

TWC Dim Mak:


As in attacking certain pressure points with finger tip strikes and phoenix-eye knuckle strikes....resulting in immediate serious disabling pain and/or possible knockout... ie. - finger strikes (bil jee) to the carotid arteries.

NOT about causing some sort of delayed death.

[old jong]

BTW
Everybody know that hitting the tip of the fingers will hurt the eyesight. This is why all Biu Sau experts are walking around with a white can and dog.
This rule does not apply if you use Biu Sau on the first new moon of the year of the rat on the opponent K620183938 point at midnight + or - one second.

This is why the old punch on the nose or kick in the nuts is so much more reliable.;)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
TWC Dim Mak:


As in attacking certain pressure points with finger tip strikes and phoenix-eye knuckle strikes....resulting in immediate serious disabling pain and/or possible knockout... ie. - finger strikes (bil jee) to the carotid arteries.

NOT about causing some sort of delayed death.

Why are you so serious?....;) :D

[kj]

I see no significant advantage for investing in "dim mak" over developing solid and effectively placed strikes. I'll opt for simple and efficient over mysterious any day of the week.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ernie]

oj

This is why the old punch on the nose or kick in the nuts is so much more reliable

somethimes when i feel special i kick them in the nose and punch them in the nuts :)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ernie
oj

This is why the old punch on the nose or kick in the nuts is so much more reliable

somethimes when i feel special i kick them in the nose and punch them in the nuts :)

Are you not affraid this could reverse your lower tantien energy and turn you into "something else"?....:eek: And....Is this not TKD?....Eh?...
;)

[old jong]

What if your opponent has no nuts?!?!...:confused: :eek: This could be possible now ,with all these bizarre guys in S.F. and elsewhere. :eek:

[Ernie]

then it's time for the one sure fire move

turn and run your in a lose lose situation

anyone willing to go through that extreme makeover will eat you alive

[old jong]

I hear you Ernie but what about having to grapple a chiropractor?...Those guys could easily dismember you and/or dismantle your spinal column!...:eek: Leaving you helpless for a deadly Biu Gee strike to your K19483 point!...:eek:

[Ernie]

hey i'll one up you lets do old karate style and grapple a bull once we get him in our gaurd , we will give him the deadly shaolin couchy couchy tickle fingers :)

[old jong]

My
deadly shaolin couchy couchy tickle fingers is rusted a little so I guess I would just squeeze the bull$hit out of him with my special "Squeeze the B.S. out of a bull internal power guard abducting muscles"...nothing special here! :rolleyes:
The bull only defense is to tighten his a$$ before but,they usually are too dumb to know that!...;) :p

[Ernie]

ahhhhh deadly tooth paste technique

very impressive jong !

[Phenix]

What are you guys talking about


DIM MARK?

Dim as dimension MARK as Marking ?

[old jong]

"Deadly toothpaste"

It is my greatest wish to see that happen in a UFC one day!...:rolleyes: Tito would make a good victim of it because he's so full of it!...:rolleyes: :D

[Ernie]

dude
didn't you see the last ufc tito vowed to stay on his feet and go hand for hand with some dude called the ice man
and he got knocked the f uck out striaght blast style in the second round

it was almost sad

[old jong]

It was not sad for me!...;)
Noticed that 90% of the fights stayed off the ground in that UFC?....;) Oh no!...I'm trolling here!... :D

[old jong]

BTW
Chuck Liddel must have used feng shui in his hairdo to gain some advantage in the fight!...Feng Shui is even worse than Dim Mak as a destructive force!

[Ernie]

i noticed that people with some good footwrk and take down defense were looking good that night

man that big dude that shut down cabbage moved real nice
that's a prime example of good footwork

i'm not big on ufc stuff infact first one i had seen in years
i get bored watching the ground game

but this was very exciting

footwork footwork footwork

p.s. i especially like that left right shuffle fake then drop 2 on cabbages jaw

that has worked a few times for me in sparring i was busting up

[Gangsterfist]

Depends on what you mean by dim mak (death touch).

If I punch you in the throat you may die, thats dim mak.

Radial nerves can drop a person. I have seen highly skilled people get dropped by newbies when chi saoing. This is because the senior will be trying to teach the junior something and the senior will somehow get accidently hit on their radial nerve. I have seen it drop tons of people.

Now training to use the pheonix eye, eh well I find that kind of silly. You don't need it and it requires a higher level of skill.

[Phenix]

There is Dim Huit and Dim Mark.

Very different stuffs.

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
There is Dim Huit and Dim Mark.

Very different stuffs.

What are the similarities and differences? Can you translate?

TIA,
- kj

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj


What are the similarities and differences? Can you translate?

TIA,
- kj


Dim Huit is about striking/ pointing to the vortex location of the energy body. Huit is vortex of the energy body.

Say the seven Chakras of the Yoga. and if you check between the Chinese model and hindu model, you can find similarity....



Dim Mark is about striking/pointing to the Current betwen the vortex location of the energy body.




So, as an analogy, one is to disturb the battery directly and the other is to disturb the path/paths of electical current.

[CFT]

Originally posted by Phenix
There is Dim Huit and Dim Mark.When you say huit, do you mean xue (Mandarin) / yuet (Cantonese)?

xue/yuet - http://zhongwen.com/d/165/x222.htm
mai/mak - http://zhongwen.com/d/175/x223.htm

[yuanfen]

Good distinctions between huit/yuet and mak, Hendrik.

The Chinese and Indian energy body analogies overlap. Because
they point towards nature- different paradigms can approach the subject and understand it.

The kalaripayattu folks also approach it similarly.

In old India, war elephants were controlled by the "mahouts"
with their hooked/pointed rods. Goebbells-X(?) and other top circus elephant trainers use a bit of it.

It takes time to devlop the understanding and the skills.

Understanding them in depth allows some equalization of skills
against brawn- relevant for small folks, women and older folks
rather than playing the Ice man or Tito's games.

Without proper understanding and training-different story-often overlayed with skepticism and cynicism.

yuanfen

[AndrewP]

Dim Mak is very easy to apply. You take your index finger. Slowly train it by pressing your muscle by your thumb curling the finger. when you have achieved this simple excercise and can curl the finger without shaking doing it smoothly - then you are ready to apply dim mak.

Making sure you use only the finger that you trained you then....



























pick up a gun and shoot the *******.

Dim mak made simple.


Now that you have been trained on this internet based course please send $250 to Dim mak grandmaster Andrew P

:)

[Nick Forrer]

hey
check out the street fighting forum

there is an ongoing dimmak seminar as we speak

looks like the siamese cat is finally out of the bag

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:
hey i'll one up you lets do old karate style and grapple a bull once we get him in our gaurd , we will give him the deadly shaolin couchy couchy tickle fingers

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You learn something every day.Yesterday i went to the feed and
tack store nearby for top quality food for my malamute.

I asked the lady what a four pronged tweezer was for. She brought out a small very strong rubber ring- put it on the four prongs which touch each other and pressed the handle- naturally
the ring expanded- apparently then you put the expanded ring over the family jewels of various animals. 2-3 weeks later- voila
with the hard constriction the jewels fall off sans surgery with knife.

Once the ring clamps into place they are hard to take off.

So couchy couchy and then whammo the ring is in place. OUCH!

[Ernie]

hey joy

so we got all the bull with no balls

seen a few of those in my time:)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ernie
dude
didn't you see the last ufc tito vowed to stay on his feet and go hand for hand with some dude called the ice man
and he got knocked the f uck out striaght blast style in the second round

it was almost sad

Found this on the main forum!... (http://mars.walagata.com/w/nacirema/titorun.gif) :confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

[Ernie]

ok
i'm laughing no wait i'm crying no wait i'm laughing again:)


darn i think i pee'd a little

[blooming lotus]

I have never read so much bs in my life!!! Does anyone who has actully studied dim mak have anything valid to say?? You know wing chun is a combination of 5 base styles of which dim mak is one right?

To answer the original question...yes...there are many points that will cause death, instant or delayed as well as numerous levels of suffering physical and emotional.

There are many ways to apply to these pionts and thumbs or fingers or half fists etc are only some. I rely heavily on my dim mak ( which can cause everything from unconciousness to peeing blood to having your opponent suddenly experience 4 days non-stop diahorea to death to breaking down in tears and confusion)

any one who says other wise is just someone who never learnt and finds it too scary to consider real....

dim mak is a real art.....deal with it

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by old jong


Found this on the main forum!... (http://mars.walagata.com/w/nacirema/titorun.gif) :confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

see..if that dude had some hsing -yi experience he woulda distributed his weight differently and never would over shot that kick without thinking whole body..ie:leaving top half open and running away like a girl...



how is that relevant to dim mak again...'cause i think I mssed that :confused:

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ernie



darn i think i pee'd a little

I knew you were a very sensible kind of guy!....;) ;) ;)

[Redd]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
There are many ways to apply to these ponts and thmbs or fingers or half fists etc are only some. I rely heavily on my dim mak ( which can cause everything from unconciousness to peeing blood top having your opponent suddenly experience 4 days non-stop diahorea to death to breaking down in tears and confusion)

Which of these cannot be accomplished with an opportune strike? How often do you routinely inflict these injuries? How do you decide between equally great choices like peeing blood and extended "diahorea"? How many people have experienced death from your touch? So many questions, so little................

[monkey man]

I've studied dim mak outside of wing chun and, having been on the receiving end, can vouch for it's authenticity! I couldn't possibly comment on the delayed effects of point striking, but following a chain of events (striking specific points in relation to the cycle of destruction - i.e. fire to wood to earth) has a MUCH greater impact than just striking random points. It's easy to mock what you don't understand....


(I'm not even going to go into the concept of no-touch knock outs!) :rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

I was just going over some dim mak charts and no matter how many times I read them, it totally blows me away the amount and level of personal destruction it can cause........there's some seriously savage sh*t that you can reak on a person!!! I would never teach even one of those points to a person I wasn't conviced was totally solid minded....acknowledge it not, but people who have this information can f*ck you now, later and on into old age from one freakin touch.....it's crazy sh*t but because of the whole qi, and balance (yin yang concept) there' healing side to the art aswell.....I diy dimmak heal myself and others often....for instance I just did some qi stimulation points after being sick as mofo for days and within the hr I felt like I could run a 5/10 km track????

It's pretty expensive to learn and I don't know many teachers ...if you really want to find it you will and if you didn't understand the value of not using whatever force you have available, once you know the damage it can cause..I've got a feeling you'd probably grow a concience.....

cheers

[Nick Forrer]

Blooming lotus

Two questions

1) what drugs are you on?










































































2) Can I have some?:D

[imx]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Wing Chun has dim mak?



William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun is the only linage from the great grandmaster Yip Man's who has Dim Mak. Do anyone know anything about the other linages that are not from Yip Man?

[yuanfen]

IMK-sez-William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun is the only linage from the great grandmaster Yip Man's who has Dim Mak.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments on above-

Not true.

I am not talking about esoteric stuff of empty force or hitting different points at different times of the day.

The body is full of strike points anyway. Dont need to learn from charts....though it doesnt hurt to know TCM analysis of healing and hurting areas. Superficial memorixzation of points doesnt help.


It is not easy to speak for all wing chun approaches.

Ip Man was superb. But he did not call himself great grandmaster.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nick:


"What drugs are you on and can I have some"....

That was good !

[imx]

yuanfen,

so which students of Yip Man has Dim Mak in their systems, except William Cheung?

Cause I read somewhere that Cheung said that he was the only one who learned the wing chun dim mak techniques from Yip Man.

[yuanfen]

imx sez:
Cause I read somewhere that Cheung said that he was the only one who learned the wing chun dim mak techniques from Yip Man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really?!!!!:o :) :rolleyes: :)

[Gangsterfist]

Please, correct me if I am wrong, because I very well could be, but Dim Mak is found in lots of systems. So, there are many similar Dim Mak techniques out there from many different styles and lineages of kung fu.

I must say I have experienced dim mak type techniques. I can't be 100% what exactly it was, but I have felt queasy when touching hands with certain highly skilled people.

[blooming lotus]

I'm not surprised....there are points all throughout your hands...but chin na more than dim mak has more focus on these.....

alot of styles use chi interuption in conjunction with pysiological factors to cause and or heal damage......meridians combined with yang aspects are not exclusive to dim mak

[imx]

Originally posted by yuanfen

Really?!!!!:o :) :rolleyes: :)

Since you seem to know so much about wing chun, why don't you answer my two previous questions?

The only logical conclusion based on what a I know about Cheung, TWC and the rest of the Yip Man family tree is that it is not likely that there is dim mak in the wing chun system. I could be wrong.

[yuanfen]

imx-said-Since you seem to know so much about wing chun, why don't you answer my two previous questions?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have I claimed to "know so much"? I hope that you are not being sarcastic, hard to tell in net posts.
In any case with benegit of the doubt-
I indirectly did answer "yes" to your question as to whether others besides Cheung sifu has dim mak in their system.. I am not in TWC so I do not know the details of dim mak in TWC.

One of the things that often happens- is folks overgeneralizing about wing chun usages or the state of things in the art. I try to avoid that.

Assuming that you are talking about "contact" dim mak and point hitting- imo---good
development of biu jee skills can lead to dim mak, chinna and some other good things as well. It is not a cerebral question-just good
gong fu development takes place with regular correct practice. Beginners can damage themselves or be damaged and shouldnt worry about it.(a general-not a personal remark)

Ip Man made a copy of a dim mak work with illustrations. Ip Ching
has a copy. One copy disappeared. Approaches to dim mak vary
in families and TCMA styles. WC will use its own principles, southern mantis and eagle claw etc will use theirs etc.

[Gangsterfist]

Joy,

Interesting stuff. My sigung practices qigong. I have heard some weird things from his students and my sifu. Things like him wiffing the air right in front of you and making you weak and queasy, and even dropping a few people. I for one, have never experienced anything like that, but have experienced things similar in much smaller amounts.

Do you train qigong, or any other kind of internal art to develope internal energy joy?

[yuanfen]

Gangsterfist- I was referring to dim mak involving actual digital contact.

Of course control without touching is possible depending on context. I may choose to use the garlic cum turmeric cum black and red pepper spitball attack that I have been preparing for centuries<g>

I do depend on the forms for sufficient chi gong. Enough for fighting.

I have had a very good kundalini yoga instructor besides my wing chun sifu and have experimented with different chi gung and pranayama for additional understanding of health.

Of course if I geta severe cut I am going to a decent MD to get sewn up. But preventive medicine is the best medicine.

joy

[Gangsterfist]

I have practiced qigong before, but its tough to get that much out of sifu. He is apprehensive it seems about teaching it. I know postures and exercises, but nothing too specific. In due time I may get something more out of him.

I have the patience to wait.

[anerlich]

I've been to a William Cheung dim mak seminar.

He showed us some points (which I've seen from non-WC sources also), but then went on to say that it's basically useless for fighting due to the elusiveness of the points themselves in the chaos of combat, and the extremely taxing conditioning drills you need to do to be able to strike the points with sufficient power. You need to be able to do phoenix eye pushups before you consider trying to use the PE fist for Dim Mak.

Erle Montaigue (www.taijiworld.com) has a hige amount of dim mak info and makes some amazing (unbelievable, literally) claims. He annoyed two of the Gracies very badly once in some articles he wrote, and responded to their telephoned challenge not with Dim Mak, but with an axe, rocks, and the threat of sicking Australian immigration on them. Enough said, I think.

[namron]

Originally posted by monkey man
I've studied dim mak outside of wing chun and, having been on the receiving end, can vouch for it's authenticity! I couldn't possibly comment on the delayed effects of point striking, but following a chain of events (striking specific points in relation to the cycle of destruction - i.e. fire to wood to earth) has a MUCH greater impact than just striking random points. It's easy to mock what you don't understand....


(I'm not even going to go into the concept of no-touch knock outs!) :rolleyes:

Please dont, I'll feel like I'm at a Dilman seminar :D

[yuanfen]

Some considered opinions---each to his own---

Use of Dim mak in some wc is quite different from Dillman, Clarke,
approaches and certainly from "empty force" (distance dim mak)nonsense.

True... that "intellection" regarding specific points is practically useless -it's like a phlebotomist seeking a lab sample by trying to insert a needle on a fleeing patient. But even a wrongly inserted needle can hurt you.

However the body is loaded with points and they are interconnected. Very very close quarters work requires both
"short" explosive power development and tactile sensitivity and and appropriate close quarters mobility.

Phoenix eye work imo does not need knuckle push ups- pushups can create imo-the wrong kind of tension.

I gave up on the military pushups years ago on purpose. Experientially- the pushup and a wc char kuen seems to engage the muscles in quite different ways.

Top quality southern mantis work also uses similar principles but from a different structure and platform... and involves craftsmanship rather than mass production in organizations.

yuanfen/joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Craftsmanship rather than mass production in organizations"???

Please...the empty cliches are really starting to become painful to read.

There is a very practical and logical reason for the phoenix-eye knuckle pushups...they strengthen the very parts of the fingers/hands/joints that one will be using to deliver the strikes.

Remember - these are not muscles...fingers and knuckles can be injured easily if not prepared and strengthened for such strikes.

The pushups (as well as other drills) can can do just that.

[yuanfen]

Victor- its ok to ignore what looks like empty cliches.
It's in the details.

We just have quite different perspectives on a lot of things.

On the net- one person's cliches can be someone else's substance and vice versa. No big deal.

I quit commenting on supplementing wing chun gaps with catch wrestling sometime ago. BTW I have great respect for Gotch- both of them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Joy:

Okay...fair enough. But what about the points I made concerning the knuckle pushups?

[yuanfen]

Victor- I am gainst the standard military push ups -they involve too much
tensing of the triceps... different from so called "hindu" push ups
in which there is more variation in muscle usage and the cycles
and waves of the motions. But I digress.

Beginners should not worry about phoenix eye -need appropriate
wing chun "level" of development to understand the possible paths of the fist. Soft progressive bag work can develop the digits
and knuckles- minimizing the risks of long run damage and loss of flexibility of ligaments, tendons and joints..

Ip Man wasa complex man- didnt use a cookie cutter in his teachings. His Fatshan students remembered his usage of the phoenix eye.

joy

[Ultimatewingchun]

Joy:

I prefer the Hindu pushups myself...and agreed - beginners shouldn't really get involved with the phoenix eye strikes...Soft progressive bag work is also a good idea (which I've done) - and from there I personally have gone on to doing the knuckle pushups - first putting some padding down on the floor...eventually just the floor.

It works for me.

[Gangsterfist]

FWIW, from what I have been taught about the Pheonix eye fist, is that it does not require that much special conditioning. This is because when its used. Striking soft points like inside bicept, inside wrist, neck, zaphoid process. If the Pheonix Eye is held right and executed right special conditioning is not totally needed. However in retrospect it will definately help when you do not strike correctly.

Iron body is not needed IMO. Internal power is more important IMO, over iron body. I do iron palm training however, but really it helps heal my hand injuries more than make my hand tough. The iron plam training I do is an internal conditioning training method, not external. I do not break bone and let calcium deposits grow over my knuckles to make my hand tough.

[blooming lotus]

there are more than just a few points that are extremely easy to get to in every region of your body ( meaning there is always something significant exposed ) and require minimum force to do great damage.....with all sorts of different blows, fist, half fist, sapear, half spear, finger, knuckel, several knuckles, palm, pull, stroke, squeeze, ball of foot, heel, toe, tiger claw, eagle, dragon, elbow, knee etc etc


Iron body applicable to dim mak is good to protect points on your core, but chances are that A. your opponent will not even know what dim mak is, let alone be using it and B. if your aware of these ponts, there's little chance you'd be leaving them open anyway.

[Phil Redmond]

Joy wrote:
>>Ip Man made a copy of a dim mak work with illustrations. Ip Ching has a copy. One copy disappeared. Approaches to dim mak vary in families and TCMA styles. WC will use its own principles, southern mantis and eagle claw etc will use theirs etc.<<

I was waiting for someone to write that Yip Man made a Dim Mak chart. I didn't want to have to read the posts of the naysayers so I just smiled when some one didn't think WC had Dim Mak. Cheung Sifu has a copy. Not the one that disapperead....smile. Like Andrew says, Cheung Sifu teaches that it's really hard to apply all the time because of the dynamics in a real fight. There are points on the body that will hurt or cause more damage than others. Dim Mak isn't mystical as the name implies. It's common sense places to strike. Even western Doctors know of certain sensitive pressure points.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
it's really hard to apply all the time because of the dynamics in a real fight.



Thus, I have heard it is not so. If the grapper can take one down disregard one is standing or punching and kicking. Then, it can be done. If they can do a take down, then WCK people should be able to do a close in target strike.

In the old time, Dim Mark or Huit ( one needs to differentiate between Dim Mark and Dim Huit) is used to tame and/or handle the metal sick patients who is out of control. without hurting them. so that is not worse that a real fight.

Remember, some of those in Redboat were Chinese doctors who can fix body and bones too? IF these part of data being re evoke. Then, you might not need bjj.....
Yes, there were information. :D But ultimately is about can one generate that jing which is needed under the circumstances. almost needed a Zero Delay all condition jing generation.

The more this type of topic got dig out, it will only point to a direction --- the WCK's close body generation, figthing method, .... has been lost. IT is not that Phenix eyes... it is that power generation... phenix eye is just a drill bit for a certain application. if you do have a drillmo. you got to get one first. :D

Dont believe me? go to the Dit Da place and see how people fixing hands and elbow and ........... how did they do it?


Just some wild thoughts.

[yuanfen]

Hi Hendrik- agree with your last posts. Close quarters working dynamics has been eroded considerably. Lot more to it than gouging and biting.

In any case, I was watchinga preview of Helen Liang doing emei
snake style. A serious question - is that snake style related to what you know about the possible emei snake-fulien white crane connections to old wing chun?

joy

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hi Hendrik- agree with your last posts. Close quarters working dynamics has been eroded considerably. Lot more to it than gouging and biting.

In any case, I was watchinga preview of Helen Liang doing emei
snake style. A serious question - is that snake style related to what you know about the possible emei snake-fulien white crane connections to old wing chun?

joy

Joy,

I have not watched Helen Liang stuffs. But Emei 12 post is the Grandfather of lots of emei martial arts since it is more then 700 years old. So there will be no suprise that emei 12 zhuang influence Helen's style.

[travelsbyknight]

I was wondering why EVERY post you type is politically correct.
Every opinion you give is always in the middle of an argument and never on either extreme. And the worse part is that there are guys on this forum that kiss your but after you type one of your posts. So I'm wondering if you do this on purpose to make us like you?




The internet stalker has spoken!

[anerlich]

With regard to the Phoenix-eye fist - I related what GM Cheung said at the seminar regarding the conditioning aspects, I did not put it forth as an epigram of absolute fact.]

When I did Xingyi, which uses the similar fist for its wood punch, no requirements for hand conditioning of this nature were mentioned during my five years of study.

Common sense would indicate that one should cultivate reasonable strength and structure in this hand shape before attempting to damage anyone with it, lest the damage be done to your hand instead. It may be designed for soft targets, but you may strike a hard target by accident.

More on the Dim Mak controversy from Stickgrappler's site:

"In the 1950's, Chang Tung Sheng, grandmaster of the Pao Ting Chinese wrestling system, national free sparring champion of China and undefeated in all challenges (and would remain so the rest of his life!) gave an interview in a Chinese news paper. He said that for years, he had heard people say that wrestling was not effective because to get that close, you could be subject to the fabled death touch of dim mak! "

"Chang found the comment amusing because he said that in all his years of fighting, it had never happened. It had never happened even when fighting so called experts at Dim Mak. In a nut shell, Chang said two more things. First, that if he could get close to you, he could hurt you! (It was the truth, pure and simple and if you've ever seen tapes of the 70 year old Chang tossing people you'd understand completely). Second, he said the whole Dim Mak thing was created by NON FIGHTERS to avoid fighting, keep their students and take money from other non fighters. "

"Chang then issued a very public challenge with money involved for anyone to Dim mak him. For another 30 plus years (the rest of his life) it never happened. "

[kj]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
I was wondering why EVERY post you type is politically correct.

If making an effort to speak reasonably, to be civil and considerate of the diverse feelings, experiences, interests and intellect of others equals political correctness, so be it.


Every opinion you give is always in the middle of an argument and never on either extreme.

Those who actually pay attention either see what I'm on about, or make a point to inquire further if interested or sufficiently curious (though that rarely happens of late). For better or worse, most probably see what they want to see just as they do in the writings of others. Perception is a funny creature. I also find little value or benefit in intruding on others' right and privilege to reason for themselves.


And the worse part is that there are guys on this forum that kiss your but after you type one of your posts.

More often than not, those who pipe in favorably are friends or long term acquaintances who have some sense of where I'm coming from. For better or worse, I've been around the Wing Chun "neighborhood" for awhile.


So I'm wondering if you do this on purpose to make us like you?

Those who will, do; those who won't, don't. I'm acutely aware that there are plenty of each.

I come here - sometimes more, sometimes less - to read, to join in civil dialog, sometimes to laugh, and occasionally even to share some small thing relating to Wing Chun, or at least my personal views or experiences on the subject. I do try to bear in mind the old saying, "Opinions are like [certain orifices]; everybody has one." Most of the time, there are already more than enough in the mix.

Generally, my minor contributions are offered as little more than food for thought, or something to question the status quo or assumptions of an assertion or debate. Most people don't enjoy being lectured, let alone by me. Though from time to time (and time permitting), I'm perfectly willing to indulge the rare few who may be sincerely interested. Especially if I sense that someone may actually be listening.

Because I enjoy reading and entertaining diverse views and voices in a civil forum, it's also not unusual for me to put my $.02 in on the process of dialog and exchange if things seem to be heading rapidly down the toilet - and provided I can perceive any shred of hope toward an improved state of interchange. Regardless of my rather strong personal views and preferences, I don't come here to waste my time and energy in pushing a specific agenda, save one of civil exchange on the subject of Wing Chun. What's your gig??


The internet stalker has spoken!

Thanks for your interest, but enough about me. Is there some Wing Chun related question on which you'd like my perspective?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phil Redmond]

Hendrick,
I should have written it "can" be hard to apply if not properly trained. You seem to know as I do that it can be done.

[yuanfen]

Good post KJ.

travelsbyknight per his profile posts from his quite common (on this forum and a couple of others )anonymous vantage point.

travelsby knight must be from a different universe because kj definitely has clear and definite views on wing chun.
Civility in expression is quite different from political correctness.

Somefolks like myself have met kj and hence seem conversational at times
in responding to kj's posts .

joy

[blooming lotus]

what seems to be going on right across these boards are "battles" or silly arguments getting personal between internal practitioners with information and experience and external practioners who deny it exists?????

I'm tired, so welcome to your disscussions

[anerlich]

what seems to be going on right across these boards are "battles" or silly arguments getting personal between internal practitioners with information and experience and external practioners who deny it exists?????

I agree the personal attack was out of line.

I think the real question is whether your alleged pearls of wisdom, which the rest of us swine ignored, are actually of value in the real world.

BTW I have information and quite a lot of experience in internal MA. I think the second link in my .sig shows that I have some knowledge of closely related topics.

One of my teachers can cause great (though temporary) pain by grasping "nerve points" in many locations on the human body - he is REALLY, scarily, good at this - but he disavows any relationship with Dim Mak. If he were attacked, he'd much rather hit the guy in several of the basic targets we all know or lock him up with chin na (which he is also terrifyingly efficient at) - much more reliable.

If this stuff was real, surely we would have seen or heard more of it in court cases and the like .... ah, but it's too deadly ... so when was the last time a "Master" got thrown in the slammer for its abuse? Are they all too morally pure for that? GMAB.

If it IS real, how will you defend its use after your arrest? How will your Sifu justify having taught it to you?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Haven't been reading this thread for a few days - just caught up...

travelsby knight: You should be ashamed of yourself - unless you're a woman looking for a cat-fight...in which case I'll withdraw my two cents and stay out of it.

But if you're a man - even if what you said was true - AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT WAS...

but even if true - what would be the point of trying to embarrass Kathy Jo like that?

That was just downright nasty !

[travelsbyknight]

I wasn't trying to embarrass her. I was just asking a question.



There's no such thing as a dumb question.

[yuanfen]

travelsbyknight sez;

There's no such thing as a dumb question
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense. It was worse than dumb. Your question was not really a question- it already had an entwined answer or assertion in it.

And then referring to yourself as a stalker was in pretty poor taste and seriously improper.

[travelsbyknight]

shut up.



There's not point in raising your blood pressure over this. Get a life.

[anerlich]

"So I'm wondering if you do this on purpose to make us like you?"

Not something you're out to do, obviously!

"The internet stalker has spoken!"

And in doing so, refuted his later statement "there is no such thing as a dumb question" by asking several of kj in the one post.

to quote the cartoon character, "What a maroon!!!"

[Ernie]

tbk

There's no such thing as a dumb question


well following your logic
of all the possible things you could bring to the table , of all the interesting wing chun questions and experiences you could share and express

you decided it was better to openly question some ones intent
like that would in some way be a benifit for everyone to read and be part of ?

just asking a question:eek:

[yuanfen]

travelsbyknight-your posts continue to deteriorate both in content and style.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by anerlich


I agree the personal attack was out of line.

I think the real question is whether your alleged pearls of wisdom, which the rest of us swine ignored, are actually of value in the real world.


If this stuff was real, surely we would have seen or heard more of it in court cases and the like .... ah, but it's too deadly ... so when was the last time a "Master" got thrown in the slammer for its abuse? Are they all too morally pure for that? GMAB.

If it IS real, how will you defend its use after your arrest? How will your Sifu justify having taught it to you?

you are right...it would hard to defend...considering the whole concept of qi and meridians is so hard for the average westerner to understand intellectually or emtionally.....

I've often said that it can be a savage art...and I have no idea why you would want to do alot of these things to anyone..I mainly use my dim mak for healing purposes but there are enough points to cover a non-lethal or life-impeding strike. I am confident that if it were life and death, I could use dim mak and survive, but it would be in combination with throws and blocks etc and little damage as was necc. I guess that's why it's so hard to find, and why you will be lucky to have it taught to you if you do. If you have this information, it's highly unlikely you

would abuse it, so I think it's a non-issue

cheers

[blooming lotus]

just been flicking through the mar/april issue of the bible...I mean kfm...and on pg 21 there's an add for the international wing chun association...

if you have a look at the pic, GGM Leung Ting is executing a 6 point dim mak strike combo....

and we can't even see what his feet are doing.....

btw...dim mak part of wing chun system

;) cheers

[WCis4me]

Definately can't resist the urge to add my 2 cents worth here.

Firstly, I read almost everything that KJ writes, why? Because, when she writes something it isn't just spewed out like a bad leak (such things result from accidents or mishaps or lack of proper care), rather it smoothly, yet powerfully flows from a well maintained tap. The results are thought provoking posts, that consistently make good points of some sort. (hmmmm maybe I am the stalker lol).
Her diplomacy is a tribute to her true WC soul, and serves as an encouraging reminder of how we all should strive to behave.
Another important point is that while I have seen her diplomacy to be exceptional, it is clear in her writings, that she feels strongly about certain things and has no problem making a firm stand in her views. I hardly see her as the wishy washy type that is just running around appeasing people in the hopes that someday someone will accept her. Nope, definately does not fit how I read KJ.
Diplomacy and acceptance or understanding of varying opinions does not infer lack of substance or backbone and it is a shame that some seem to think it does. Fortunately, not everyone is short sighted and can think outside the box or we would all be in a sad state of affairs.
FWIW, I am not a guy nevermind one trying to kiss her butt, nor am I a long time (or short time for that matter) acquaintance, nor do we share lineage, countries, recipes (couldn't resist that one) etc. I am simply another reader of this forum who enjoys her posts, finds true substance in them and realizes that despite our differences there is a lot that can be shared and learned.

Finally, this is a perfect quote, I wish I could come up with stuff like this.
KJ, gotta love ya!

Thanks for your interest, but enough about me. Is there some Wing Chun related question on which you'd like my perspective?

[blooming lotus]

you're right..that s beautiful and speaks for itself....

so back to kungfu............

[KenWingJitsu]

I so totally avoided this thread because I figured it was a troll post and people would be displaying various levels of sense of humor. I was correct based on the first few posts, so I almost left the thread. Then i read further......

Jeez. blooming lotus. You are trolling right?

Dim Mak. Shim mak. lol.

[blooming lotus]

trolling??? on western naeivety maybe....but I'm too busy to convice you it exists...accept it and take the tips...


at least be recpetive to "new " ideas for freaks sake....



dear Buddha...pls grant me a normal conversation where i don't have to talk as though to a six yr old...

[Gangsterfist]

blooming lotus-

I am aware of many different dim mak type concepts. It is a pretty broad term, becuase there are tons of techniques that effect the body in different ways. Like striking someone on their arm and effecting their large intestine, and so on and so forth.

The human body is a biological machine with interconnected systems. I can see how effecting one part of the body directly, indirectly effects another part. So, my question is to you, what are your training methods for dim mak? Also what are the goals of your training methods? Are you training to kill, disable, long term effect, or all of the above?

[KenWingJitsu]

lol. dude. i am the last person you want to tell to be receptive to new ideas. Simply ask those who know me.

"accept it and take tips"

um...okay...I'll play. How do I use Dim Mak to knockout a professional Thai kickboxer? I anxiously await your tips. Thanks in advance. :p

[Ernie]

dhira
dude some people really buy into this stuff i think i'll go to my local boxing gym and ask if i can spar and try and apply dim mak to a jab or a cross to see if i can get a knock out

the after they wake me up off the floor we can all watch the video and just have a good laugh

one of the kenpo guys at my school is big into dim mak and he told me he could hit me in a certain sequence and drop me

so i walked over to the grass [ just in case i really fell] and he did his thing after about 3 trys i just stood there and looked at him and asked him if he could hit the other side of my body cus it felt kind of like a massage

i still smile when i see him

[KenWingJitsu]

HAHAHAHA! that's what ALWAYS happens lol. You should tell the story from the gathering...lol.

[Nick Forrer]

Dhira/ernie

I once tried to phoenix eye someones kidney meridian while simultaneously disrupting their Chi flow by manipulating their chakras with my aura- I got KTFO for my trouble:mad: :D

[Ernie]

HAHAHAHA! that's what ALWAYS happens lol. You should tell the story from the gathering...lol.

nope i like people believeing in all that stuff it makes things easier for me in the real world:D

[Gangsterfist]

Ernie,

FWIW, I have a few years in an okinawan system that taught pressure point fighting (was not called dim mak). I can honestly say it is real. The thing is every human is different. Some are real sensitive to certain pressure points, and others are pretty much immune to them. I am sure you have learned some sort of chin na that utilizies pressure points. I have been hit on a radial nerve on my forearm and been dropped cuz it hurt so bad. There are obviously ways to condition your body to make it harder to use pressure point fighting against you.

The person who tried hitting you probably did not know what they were doing. Most of the pressure point fighting I learned is used in joint locks, and manipulations.

[Ernie]

nick
Dhira/ernie

I once tried to phoenix eye someones kidney meridian while simultaneously disrupting their Chi flow by manipulating their chakras with my aura- I got KTFO for my trouble



did she yell rape
:D


man i got to get to class later guys

[Ernie]

gfist
[The person who tried hitting you probably did not know what they were doing. Most of the pressure point fighting I learned is used in joint locks, and manipulations.
]

this guy is a 20 year martial arts vetran and teacher with various black belts

but to be honest gary knows alot of that stuff and has tried it on me and said i'm a walking dead man since i don't feel any of it

i think it's just cause i'm in good shape

or scare tissue from all the bones i have broken :D

either way way waste your time on something that is hard to pull off and might not work

[Nick Forrer]

hI GF

there are plenty of sensitive areas of the body- nose eyes temple thoat carotid artery spine solar plexis ribs bladder groin shins etc.

It hurts like F_uck to get hit in any of these points.

The claims that some people make for Dimmak are of a different order altogther i.e. if i hit you in these points in this order at this time of day then in exactly 14.25 hours you will loose bowel control.

[yuanfen]

Ernie- the Dilman types of folks do not have a delivery system.
You gotta be a non resiting stationery victim.
And there are varying definitions of what dim mak is.
They are not all the same.

[kj]

You guys and gals humble me with your thoughtful consideration.

WCis4me, I assure you the respect is mutual. It is an endless delight to exchange with other thoughtful, mature, and intelligent folks like yourself. I do have one confession to make though: I must defer to my husband for the recipe exchange. His kung fu in that arena far surpasses mine. ;)

Back over to dim mak.

Kind Regards,
- kj

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
blooming lotus-
So, my question is to you, what are your training methods for dim mak? Also what are the goals of your training methods? Are you training to kill, disable, long term effect, or all of the above?

no...not paticularly...just training complete self defence...pretty sure I wouldn't need alot of this stuff practically, but it's nice to know I do if I need it....


training methods : **** load of chart study then apply to form/s
tcm study, own qigong practice?? etc etc.....


as for tips or points and combos...dude..get yourself a teacher...ther is no way in hell I would give this information to anyone..I don't know who you are or what you're about...and as for the realisticness of dimmaks' effectiveness, there are demo points you can use with minimal damage, some dude was telling how his 6 yr old used to get a buzz out of knocking him unconcious.....

I have nothing left to say here so long as the seed 's been planted ...i 'm just gon leave you with it

cheers :cool:

[Gangsterfist]

My sigung (soon to be sifu) has studied qigong for a long time. He knows a lot about internal energy. I will get all my training from him in due time, that is of course if he chooses to teach me.

I ask lots of question all the time to every sifu\martial artist I meet. Some find it offensive, I find it normal. I always try to be respectful of their views and reasons, but ultimately like to experience the differences.

I was just asking basic questions, there is no way I would even try to learn dim mak from you over the internet, thats just plain ridiculous. Martial arts is a hands on type thing. I have learned stuff from books, and videos, however I learn the most from hands on.

If you don't want to answer I respect that as well.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
lol. dude. i am the last person you want to tell to be receptive to new ideas. Simply ask those who know me.

"accept it and take tips"

um...okay...I'll play. How do I use Dim Mak to knockout a professional Thai kickboxer? I anxiously await your tips. Thanks in advance. :p


sure, why not?

Do a pak Sau real hard to thier inner thigh which close to thier groin area. :D

If you dont like that do a pak sau direct to thier groin. :D

The question is not pak Sau doesnt work, but can get that close? Hehehehehe

[yuanfen]

Hendrik:The question is not pak Sau doesnt work, but can get that close?

--------------------------------with good wing chun footwork este possible! Verdad.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Someone asked me waaaay back at the beginning of this thread why my answer was so serious...remember?

Because...(like Dhira)...I knew this was a troll thread - by Dale Franks (alias knifefighter).

But alot of people took the bait - and now we have blooming lotus and Phenix (Hendrik) leading us off into la la land...

Just what we needed. LOL.

[blooming lotus]

mm hmm...la la...

ps: ninjitsu is also a myth ;)

[Ernie]

ps: ninjitsu is also a myth

so is the easter bunny


but people still ''pretend '' right


joy ,

i did just stand there and let him wack me and i laughed in his face ,

i just got back from class and asked gary to do some of this wing chun dim mak on me

and nothing worked

now he did it with other people and they feel down in pain

but that stuff just doesn't work on me

even gary said it people are different , now alot of these ideas are taught at bil jee level

but no body really takes it to serious
i'll stick to an eye jab or a groin kick any day :D

[yuanfen]

Ernie- broadem your definition of dim mak-you nay have some when you say..
"i'll stick to an eye jab or a groin kick any day "

Both involve "awkening" transmissions!!!

And when one transmission is blocked you use another switch.!!

[yuanfen]

Ernie- broadem your definition of dim mak-you may have some when you say..
"i'll stick to an eye jab or a groin kick any day "

Both involve "awkening" transmissions!!!

And when one transmission is blocked you use another switch.!!
The body (if a lie one) is a switchboard.Diffrent paradigm perhaps.

[KenWingJitsu]

Victor, yup, I knew it was a troll thread...but sometimes a "serious" troll (blooming lotus) shows up. Which makes it funnier. Now he's not going to teach us Dim mak over the internet. LOLOLOLOL!

What more can be said.

I've had some friends go to George Dild......er....I mean Dillman's seminars and tell him it ddnt work on them, but his "assistants would push them over so it would look like they fell, then say "relax you were knocked out". lol.

[blooming lotus]

mm hmm.troll not too busy for ingnorance..just trolling....


get a frwakin life ....

or at minmum take a class