Another weird bjj question

[Nick Forrer]

Does this escape from the mount work? If so does anyone ever use it?

You are lying flat on the bottom. You turn over so that you give him your back but then you turtle up as quickly as possible and 'crease' your elbows back across the side of your body to prevent him getting his hooks in. Then- as he has moved up to try and take your back- you do a forward roll and sweep/take his legs out from under him as you do it. You should now have his back.

Any thoughts/comments?

[Merryprankster]

does it work?

yes.

is it a good IDEA? not really. it's really risky. there is so much that can go wrong with this.

it's kind of like putting your hands by your waist and just slinging your hands out there, trying to take the guys head off. you might knock him out. or, you might get *****ed.

it's going to come down to whose better at what they are doing, but it's not really considered a great tactic.

[Nick Forrer]

Cheers MP

so you're an Upa/ knee elbow man?

[Merryprankster]

i'm a knee and elbow guy. but i'm a guard player so i don't mind being in the guard.

straight upa is really hard to get on good people.

the thing you talked about doing--if i find myself in that position in transition, you bet i'm rolling through.

deal is, the only way you get his back is if he rides too high--and there is no guarentee that will happen.

[WinterPalm]

If you turn your back to the person while they are mounted on you, couldn't they just punch you in the head?

[SevenStar]

in a grappling tourney, no.

in mma, yeah, but they have to hit the side of the head. it's illegal to hit the back of the head or base of the spine.

[justinmorris]

I have been doing BJJ for almost 10 years now and this is the first time I have ever heard of someone giving up their back to escape the mount. BJJ is about improving position not losing it. My advice would be always to try using the elbow escape or bridge and roll or combine the 2 - for advanced players going out the backdoor is sometimes good. Mount prevention is much better but it is too hard to explain this stuff on a forum.

Justin
www.thirdheaven.com

[FatherDog]

Depending on the position of the guy's legs, you can get a rolling kneebar off of this.

I don't think I've ever turtled to escape mount, but I've rolled to get out of being turtled before.

[Merryprankster]

I have been doing BJJ for almost 10 years now and this is the first time I have ever heard of someone giving up their back to escape the mount.

huh, that's interesting. i've seen it done. like i said though, it's frowned upon precisely because it's a bad idea. too many bad things can happen.

i agree whole-heartedly that turtling to escape the mount is a bad idea, don't get me wrong.


BJJ is about improving position not losing it.

yep.



Mount prevention is much better but it is too hard to explain this stuff on a forum.

well, you try to prevent people from knocking you out or submitting you too, but as we see that doesn't always happen.

as always, the answer is situationally dependent. i just can't conceive of a situation where i'm mounted that i'd personally turtle on a guy - mostly because if i made enough room to turtle, i made enough room to do other things with a higher success rate.

justinmorris, do you train w/henry matamoros?

and, as fd mentioned, kneebar is a possibility once there.

[Nick Forrer]

I understood that giving someone your back was a definite no no too- but then I saw some footage of Sakuraba and also Vernon white doing just this when mounted which made me reconsider.

Maybe its okay at a very high level of technical proficiency- in the way that Prince Naseem box's with his hands down even though you are generally taught to keep your hands up.

[Merryprankster]

I understood that giving someone your back was a definite no no too- but then I saw some footage of Sakuraba and also Vernon white doing just this when mounted which made me reconsider.

well, sak is sak, and it's funny you should mention this because that's EXACTLY who i was thinking of when you wrote this. vernon's not really known for his grappling skills, but you have to remember that fighters at a certain level will generally have scouted their opposition and will know what they can and can't get away with.

sak was also aided by the rules at the time of his heyday. you couldn't stomp or knee a turtled opponent at the time. this intoduced the threat of sak going for a leg lock while eliminating him getting kicked or kneed senseless.

then, ringwear started to affect him just a touch right as the rules changed, and silva rearranged him more than once as he turtled to escape a bad spot.

to use your prince hamed example, assuming they were both the same weight, i can't imagine that he'd drop his hands against rjj, or somebody with dynamite in both hands, whereas, say with someody who isn't nearly as slick, or punches more like a normal human he could do it. so part of it is knowing the opponent.

but you've got no idea what you're dealing with many times, so that option is out in those cases, until, maybe, you've felt out the opponent a bit.

[justinmorris]

Merryprankster-

Yes I do train with Henry - he lives about an hour from me but we actually started training BJJ together like a long time ago we are real good friends.

There are some real good mount escapes that you can do right when your opponent goes to take the mount but they are kind of difficult to explain more just like the way you shrimp your body and time the elbow escapes.

Ok I started thiking alot about this question and there is one guy at my school that is like over 300 lbs and he is super strong. Everytime he gets mount I can not escape but if he has my back he is always to high and I can reverse him so I guess this technique has been done but if I didnt know this guy I would not do it.

Knee bar from rear mount is also a good move - I generally go for that if I shoot for a takedown and they sprawl and go to my back - I usually dont get the move if their in a full rear mount with the hooks in. If they have full mount and then you turn your back and they put the hooks in you can roll - they will still have your back but you can try to escape from this position which I believe is easier. Fall to the opposite side of the hand that is trying to choke you bridge and try to escape the hooks and turn into them. If their feet are crossed you can put your legs over them for a foot lock.

Justin

[Merryprankster]

There are some real good mount escapes that you can do right when your opponent goes to take the mount but they are kind of difficult to explain more just like the way you shrimp your body and time the elbow escapes.

yeah, i know what you mean. i tend to think about escapes more in the context of "ok, i'm HERE, now what?"

to me, everything else is transitory... a guy who hasn't got mount yet, hasn't got mount, and i'm going to keep it that way, if i can!:D it's so much easier to get out that way, rather than when tihngs are settled.

i think beginners tend to be more comfortable allowing people to get to places though, before getting out. they aren't familiar with moving in transition so they kinda wait until some "position" is established before they start working. just a psychological comfort factor, IMO. kinda like "getting set" before you go for something. can't do that. you're never set against somebody decent!

i've got a friend in milwaukee and we went to check out duke roufus' gym. my kind of place... this was after henry had moved on to other quarters though.

[ShaolinTiger00]

i think beginners tend to be more comfortable allowing people to get to places though, before getting out. they aren't familiar with moving in transition so they kinda wait until some "position" is established before they start working.

Totally agree. I was guilty of this for a long time and even continue to do so now but am getting better..

It's funny how you reach "levels" in grappling for me there are two different waves. A level of physical and a wave of mental and they appear to me like bio-rhythms. rarely do you reach peaks and lows together..

I've just come out of a spell where my mental wave was down, but my physical wave was high. My mind could not absorb another technique or transition, but I was happy with my skills. I could dominate the positional game, but was not submitting many people. in bjj that is ok but in judo if they aren't tapping quickly it's all in vain..

recently (maybe thru my time off via injury) my mental game has picked up hugely! I'm able to see "flow" more clearly and how to set up multiple options vs. going for one thing and then getting what they give you.. I've also seen the beginning on "turn it on" something that I've seen James do during grappling but I wasn;t able to do. The ability to know when to let position control vs. strength and then when to combine them both to really make things happen.

peaks and valleys.. as long as you keep progressing..

[Merryprankster]

I was guilty of this for a long time and even continue to do so now but am getting better..

I am guilty of this still. Roy Harris talks about it in terms of beginners moving when 100% ready, and you have to work till you go when you're just 1% more ready than the other guy...


I've also seen the beginning on "turn it on" something that I've seen James do during grappling but I wasn;t able to do. The ability to know when to let position control vs. strength and then when to combine them both to really make things happen.

heh. thanks for the kind words, but I still have problems with this. I have a natural tendency to slow things down--that's why I did the shiais that I did--to be FORCED into busting my ass. No stalling and back to back matches.

It's really more of a recognition that things are relative and also, not effortless. the problem is that people get trapped in the mindset of "Gee, if this is needing strength/speed/cardio then I'm not doing it right..." They think it should be effortless. Well, it's just not, no matter how good you get. Proper body mechanics reduce the amount of attributes required to make something work, but it's still hard.

To put it bluntly, "maximum efficiency, minimum effort" sometimes means busting your ass for the time limit to outwork the other guy. It doesn't mean "this should be easy if you do it right."

[ShaolinTiger00]

With your Ming the Merciless goateee and your sweet robotic arm I fear you.

[Pork Chop]

so he's got a goh tee now?
wouldn't that make him "Evil Prankster"?
I mean if we're playing by the rules of star trek....
I guess that'll teach me to wear a red shirt to anymore fights...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by justinmorris
I have been doing BJJ for almost 10 years now and this is the first time I have ever heard of someone giving up their back to escape the mount. BJJ is about improving position not losing it. My advice would be always to try using the elbow escape or bridge and roll or combine the 2 - for advanced players going out the backdoor is sometimes good. Mount prevention is much better but it is too hard to explain this stuff on a forum.

Justin
www.thirdheaven.com

When someone is mounted, shrimp HARD, to the point that you are about 3/4 to your stomach. keep your elbows in tight and keep low - they won't be able to get a hook in. pull your knee under them and shrimp back into half guard.

I use this against heavy guys with a good mount. My normal elbow escape sucks, but I've been working with this and it's working in class so far. Haven't tried it in competition yet.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Totally agree. I was guilty of this for a long time and even continue to do so now but am getting better..

It's funny how you reach "levels" in grappling for me there are two different waves. A level of physical and a wave of mental and they appear to me like bio-rhythms. rarely do you reach peaks and lows together..

I've just come out of a spell where my mental wave was down, but my physical wave was high. My mind could not absorb another technique or transition, but I was happy with my skills. I could dominate the positional game, but was not submitting many people. in bjj that is ok but in judo if they aren't tapping quickly it's all in vain..

recently (maybe thru my time off via injury) my mental game has picked up hugely! I'm able to see "flow" more clearly and how to set up multiple options vs. going for one thing and then getting what they give you.. I've also seen the beginning on "turn it on" something that I've seen James do during grappling but I wasn;t able to do. The ability to know when to let position control vs. strength and then when to combine them both to really make things happen.

peaks and valleys.. as long as you keep progressing..

sounds like me. I'm definitely still guilty of setting in a position then trying to escape - especially in half guard for some reason - but I'm getting better at it.