Chi Sau concerns

[mossman]

I've been doing free chi sau for about a month now. I've rolled with people that go extremely fast, slow and relaxed and then some that are relaxed but don't feel relaxed because of there powerful body weight when they lean in. I've notice and others have pointed out that when I roll I tend to not be relaxed and sometimes I push against, or into instead of just giving.

So I would just like to know how I can improve my chi sau. I know it takes time but, is there something that I am just missing? I think I might need to go back to all those drills that prompted me for chi sau, or maybe I already know them, but I just don't have the feel down. Do you know what I mean?

I guess it would help me if we discussed the over all concept of chi sau and how to develop the sensory areas on my arms. I am just concerned that I might have a wrong perception of whats going on. Discuss. Thanks

[yuanfen]

mossman- there are widely varying levels of understanding and practicing chi sao.

The result is lots of misunderstandings and misdevlopment of chi sao. You can sense the cynicism on the importance of chi sao in some of the forum posts.

There is lots to chi sao and there are many kinds of chi sao. Chi sao is the key wing chun lab-its neither mechanical nor is it fighting-but indispensable in wing chun development.

Not knowing you or seeing you- more discussion will sound like pontification.

Suggest-Makin sure your ygkym structure is well developed and functional on ground connection, adjustment and springiness and with pressure.. Make sure that you have learned the dynamics of tan, fok and bong well- because understanding those well and adjusting to contact are important keys.First you have to make sure that you control your own motions well before you can control others.

[Spark]

if you've only been doing chi sau for a month, I would say don't worry about it.
You can't expect to "master" chi sau in a month, 6 months, a year ...
No tip here is going to make you better at wing chun - only you can by practicing.
realize that you (or hope that) you never plateau (especially now!) because if you do then you're not getting better.

[Gandolf269]

Mossman,
One exercise that has help me is to do the rolling arm movements in the mirror (solo). When you do this concentrate on relaxing the sholders, keeping the sholders down, and retaining your arm positions. This won't directly help your sensitivity or springyness, but it will build up your sholder and back muscles, which will help you release the tension in your sholders. Start out doing 3 minutes of Tan-Bong rolling, 2 minutes of Bong-Fook on each arm and 3 minutes of Fook-Fook rolling. Remember position and relaxation is your goal during the solo workout. And, keep working on the basics, like you suggested.

I haven't been doing chi sau that long, but I think everyone experiences what you are right now (I still do ) :) . It takes alot of time to develop good chi sau ability.

[KenWingJitsu]

"I've been doing free chi sau "

That's 90% of your problem right there......

[mossman]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
"I've been doing free chi sau "

That's 90% of your problem right there......

What do you mean?

[KenWingJitsu]

I mean if you are doing "free" chi-sao, of course you are going to tense up. Free training should be just that...free training, done separately. Chi-sao is chi-sao and should be done on its own. Trying to make chi-sao "free" creates the problems you have, and bigger ones; like thinking that free chi-sao will make you a better fighter, when in fact it neither makes you better at chi-sao nor at free fighting.

If you want to better your chi-sao, do it as it was intented....as chi-sao. To better your free fighting,...free fight/spar.

[Ernie]

dhira

you mean chi sao should be skill specific

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my god


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:D

[KenWingJitsu]

lol. Just calling out the obvious bro.:D

[Nick Forrer]

Here are some of my chi sau notes (slightly edited)

Chi Sau

In chi sau you are looking to establish a neutral state of counterbalanced forces - each persons structure should be able to absorb and cancel out the other persons forward pressure.

Tips
1) Do as much of it as possible.
2) Focus on perfecting your structure, positioning, and stance.
3) Then focus on being relaxed.
4) Dont treat it like a wrestling match/battle of strength i.e. dont fight force with force.
5) Find yourself a training partner and practice everyday if possible.
6) Chi sau with as many people as possible. Dont restrict yourself to people who you find easy to handle. Dont get stuck in a comfort zone.
7) Find a couple of basic drills you can work on e.g. jut sau, pak sau, stepping in with tan and then do them over and over and over.
8) Work on developing good Lat sau Jik Chung.

This translates (very roughly) as 'when the path is clear attack without hesitation' or, more literally, 'when your enemy's hand hand withdraws, strike forward'. It is a kind of 'forward prying force' that allows you to automatically detect gaps/holes in your opponents defences/structure once you have established contact with them.
It is a tactile reflex rather than a visual reflex and so is much quicker than a visual reflex as there is no time taken up by the kind of cognitive processing that a visual reflex requires i.e. between the initial visual cue, the subsequent decision making process and the eventual response. It is worth emphasising, however, that it is not so much a pushing force (which tends to come from the upper body/arms/shoulders) as a prying force (which tends to come from the lower body/pelvis and thus the floor), which is more subtle than a pushing force. It is like asking a question and the question is 'whats out there?' Or, alternatively it is like picking a lock rather than trying to bash the door down.

There are specific drills to practice this:

e.g. whilst rolling 'A' with draws an arm at random. 'B's hand should then follow straight in to the target without any hesitation or deviation from a straight line. One can also do this drill with 'A' stepping away later on to train the feet as well i.e. so that the hands and feet move together as one unit.

9) Don't force anything- if you get stuck change the angle- do just enough to establish a clear line of attack. You should not resist- instead you should go where they put you. Chi sau is like a jig saw puzzle- If the shape is correct it will slide in easily- you shouldn’t have to force it in.

10) Rolling: You should be at close range i.e. elbow to elbow- not on the wrists (which is kicking range) – That is to say you should be looking to establish control of their elbows with your elbows.

When rolling don’t bring the elbows back- the tendency is to bring them back to get power but this is wrong- the elbows should stay pretty much where they are i.e. about a fist and a half away from the body – both Tan and Fook- the pry comes from the lower body – The Pelvis moves forward slightly but the upper body stays pretty much where it is.

11) If you use too much force someone can use it against you. But too little and there will be no pry- You have to do just enough so that you are asking the question ‘whats out there?’ – if the answer is nothing you hit. If the answer is something you stop prying and change to the other position- don’t keep prying- either you will push them away or you will get pushed away or worse.

12) When you go in/take up their position the hip should lead the hand rather than the other way around. Also dont let one hand collapse/die as you attack with the other. The hands have to be able to act both in unison and seperately.

[YongChun]

I think Chi Sau is a laboratory in Wing Chun to try things out. Chi sau is most productive when two partners work with each other rather than to just fight each other. Thus one feeds the other so that proper responses to force can be trained. From my experience it helps if problem situations/attacks are repeated over and over until there is a satisfactory solution. I once had two students who spent a year and a half just slowly working on responses and repeating things over and over again, hundreds of times. After this no one in the club could get through on these two guys with anything.

Quite often both students attack each other with great vigor speed and force yet very little is learned except "quick draw" kind of hands. That means very often so many kinds of attacks come in that there is no time to train on any one of them to develop an ideal response. That's not to say that there isn't a place for this kind of Chi sau because eventually we must handle speed and strength.

I remember one teacher I had used to ask, during our wild fights, "what are you guys training?" Our response was that we were training fighting. His response was that we were training just garbage because our positions were wrong, our feeling was not relaxed, the stance was not stable, the changes were not economical, the elbows were out, and the same few poor techniques were used over and over again. Later on his advice to me was not to spoil the students by letting them do too much "fun" fighting until the fundamentals as taught by the forms and the principles were correct. He said the relationship between form on the one hand and Chi sao on the other should always be pointed out to the student.

To develop fast hands is very easy. These kinds of hands can beat a lot of people. But there are too many martial artists with fast hands. When you come across someone who has spent a long time practicing the fundamentals of the stance, body position and the relaxed, sensitive sticking feeling, then one quickly feels that they are in trouble against this kind of opponent before they even do anything to you. That applies whether the opponent is from Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Ba Gua or Hsing I. Someone well rooted, calm and relaxed and who has the understanding in Wing Chun equivalent to a chess master in Chess is very frustrating to deal with.

I think one approach to Chi sau is to start that after your first form is good. That means you stance is rooted, you are very centered with your actions, you feel calm, relaxed and settled. Your limbs feel relaxed and heavy but you can also make them feel relaxed and light. If your Siu Lim Tao form is good then a lot of good charactersitics from this form can be brought into the sticking hands training. Usually form precedes function or application.

A key is to be patient with just the rolling mechanics. Slow careful rolling is good to develop the sensitivity and the settled calm mind. Quick rolling is to develop the fast reflex actions. At first I think the slow way is better in order to concentrate on the minute details that are everywhere. Sometimes very small changes in position can make big differences on the result. So I would recommend 20 minutes at least of just relaxed rolling making sure you are in a stable rooted stance, you are very centered with your limbs and that your limbs feel very relaxed and in fact very sticky to your opponent. Even with this skill so far it should seem to your partner that there are really few if any openings for an easy attack. The slow part of the Siu Lim Tao builds a lot of useful qualities. It trains the stance, the centerline, the relaxation, the elbow position, the shoulder position, the Tan sau, Fook sau and Wu sau. It trains the mind to control the body in the proper way. That ties directly to the proper positions and feelings in the Chi sau rolling exercise.

After that is accomplished the student is ready to start to explore Chi sau. There are many paths to do this. If the fundamentals are not good however then there will be many holes in your defence, you will be very stiff and tense, you will feel very edgy and not comfortable in Chi sau. Your body will move all over the place and your vertical axis will not remain vertical. Instead you may twist and turn and bend and fight as a school boy might, throwing any gains in economy derived from the first form out the window. None of this will be apparent until you meet the right kind of fighter. You can do chi sau for many years and then one day meet someone who can calmy neutralize everything you have. Then you will feel all the time you put in is wasted. So don't rush, don't be anxious to have a freestyle fight.

I think eventually it is important to cross hands with many kinds of Wing Chun people and also non Wing Chun people. It is sometimes the case that the guy that knows nothing is the most difficult to deal with. While crossing hands with other lineages, there must always be a respect and a proper protocol. Naturally people have their egos and like to be better than you. But as various friendship seminars have pointed out, it is possible to construct mutual productive learning environments where at least for a few hours lineage and ego is thrown out the window. Little can be learned if one has a superiority complex that only one's own art and teacher is good.

[Ernie]

yongchun

very very nice post my favorite part was



[[I remember one teacher I had used to ask, during our wild fights, "what are you guys training?" Our response was that we were training fighting. His response was that we were training just garbage because our positions were wrong, our feeling was not relaxed, the stance was not stable, the changes were not economical, the elbows were out, and the same few poor techniques were used over and over again]]]


i think i might have to send this to a few people i know =)

[kj]

Nick and Ray,

Excellent posts - would love to see more of this sort!

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[old jong]

would love to see more of this sort!

I think the same way. There is always room for this kind of posts.

[curtis]

There are a lot of good ideas already posted, but I have a slightly different veiw.

Chi soa is a very good exercise it teaches many skills that can be directly apply to application. But the way I see it, Chi soa is just a game.
sensitivity, redirecting of energy and reading your opponent's intentions before they happen are all part of this game. So how do you improve upon this game? ;-)
I would suggest to break things down into the simplest form. And then study each of the elements that make it up.
By going slow and studying (feeling) what is actually happening, is one of the best ways of learning.
I would also suggest working with a skilled practitioner, having your partner move slowly at first, and gradually increasing speed as your skill gets better is one of the best ways to become good at Chi soa. The general adage, is true." To learn fast, you must first go slow." By learning the correct angles of the arms , hands, and body. Using the natural positions themselfs,to stop any possible strikes ,is far better than re-acting to the threat. As your body understands the proper positions, then it is simple matter of feeling (or listening) to what the opponent is doing. My General rule . is to use the minimum amount of energy (effort) as possible, this will allow more sensitivity (feeling) to what the opponent is doing or going to do. I find that if I listened properly, I can normally shut an opponent down 2 to 3 rotations before he actually strikes.
Chi soa becomes a very complex game of chess. And like chess, there are many masters, all having there own views of how play the game.
Who am I to say what is right and is wrong? What I am suggesting is the quickest way I have found to learn. Break things down to the simplest form, study the elements individually, and practice with a goal in mind.
The old adage. "practice makes perfect" is not 100 percent true. (It's how you practice.) The adage should be, that perfect practice makes perfect technique possible.
Sincerely yours. C.A.G.

[mossman]

Thanks for the Excellent post guys.

I guess I just need to slow down. I roll 3 days a week with a variety of people (all ages, body shapes and experiences) A lot of the time I just find myself and my partner just going really to fast and our hands are flying. I just have a hard time of really applying any specific techniques because it's just too fast. There are only 2 other guys besides my teacher who actually throw me specific moves for me to counter. All the others just seem like they are playing a "game" (not the same game said above) but just trying to see who can hit who first or as many times as possible. Sometimes it's hard for me to believe if they even know what they are doing "chi sau".

I have not yet started stepping and I just started turning, but I am just staying stationary in chi sau. I guess I just need to work out more with the older and more experienced guys.

How do you guys practice? Our class is about an hour long and I get to do chi sau with 6 different people for about 10min each. (3 days a week) I was thinking about just meeting with one of the older guys and just working on chi sau and applying certain techniques for 1 hour or more. So I can let him stop and look at each move I make so we can really examine every element.

[kj]

Originally posted by mossman
I was thinking about just meeting with one of the older guys and just working on chi sau and applying certain techniques for 1 hour or more. So I can let him stop and look at each move I make so we can really examine every element.

That should be of much more benefit than ego games with inexperienced practitioners (re my post on the Turning Point in WC Development (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=469228#post469228) thread). My teacher frequently admonishes us that we should work with people more skillful than ourselves at every opportunity; it's advise I take seriously. Aggression, desire to "win," or the capability to dominate because of size, strength, or speed should not be confused with skill.

Your comment about your partners "leaning in" was a tip-off that something is probably fundamentally wrong in the way chi sau is being exercised, IME & IMHO. Sticking with the drill at all costs isn't going to benefit you in the way it should if both parties aren't doing their part properly. Being a cooperative exercise (even at extremely challenging levels), chi sau on one level is as much about learning to feed energy to one's partner properly and at an appropriate and mutually advantageous pace, as it is about controlling oneself and the dynamics of the encounter. There's a good chance that improper practice will do more harm than good in the long run.

Without knowing the particulars, I suspect your concern is probably a healthy one, and your gut knows that something is amiss. While the problem is yours to remedy, the cause is likely not yours alone.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Shoulder girdle down. Always. When it rises, on either or both sides, bring it back down. Scapula flat against the back, not sticking out (or at least as flat as is reasonable given your natural build), and supported by properly aligned yet relaxed body posture. Insightful diagrams of spinal alignment and pelvic tilt can be found on pages 9 & 11 of "Warriors of Stillness: Meditative Traditions in the Chinese Martial Arts, Vol 1" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0964997606/qid=1081548912/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-5152621-2284655?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) if you can access a copy.

If you do this well and consistently enough, you will likely begin to feel powerless; then you're getting closer. ;) This will in turn will both enable and require you to use a mechanical advantage instead of muscle your way through. It will also help you to become more "substantial" and serve as an important element for improved body unity.

The dilemma is, if others in your school aren't practicing similarly, or if they are going at a pace that's inappropriate relative to your or others' capabilities, it's going to be difficult to develop the pre-requisite skills, and frustrating for everyone. IMO&E. It's hard to achieve the desired result when the workshop isn't equipped with the appropriate tools.

My comments are from my own paradigm and training methodology of course. Others MWV. Hoping your change in strategy helps a lot, and wishing you all the best.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gangsterfist]

Chi sao is a genious thing. I am not sure how one would even think of a system like that to develope skills. Its so hands on so you can feel your own progression. Not many things let you feel your progression in real time.

Chi sao is also (as I have been told) so widely spread from variances and ideas. From what I have been taught chi sao is: Not sparring, Not tense, with intent, feeling, searching, acting (no reacting), developing, and progressive. When I roll hands with sifu its so hard. He has developed this skill of soft springyness. For example when he goes for lower gates, or gaps lower bridges my first action is a dropping elbow. Which is very effective and almost always works, and is a great answer by wing chun logic. However, it didn't work. His bridges felt my pressure coming down, slightly tense as they hit and used it against me. Juts, and lops work the same. He knows when to let his arm loose, but its not loose like a noodle. It springs right back with some forward motion or intention. It happens so quick he gets the best of me everytime. I then get nervous when starts getting progressive and a bit more aggressive. I know I have to act fast and that naturally makes me slightly nervous (which is natural reaction, and I am pretty much over it now only the very last second upon before getting hit to I get slightly nervous, and it doesn't happen that often anymore) That was one of my demons of chi sao, that and my shoulders were so tense when I first started. Chi sao has helped me lose that nervousness and tension. However, not 100% cured by chi sao, but many many many times better than when I first started out wing chun.

Remember you can always look back to dan chi sao (single hand) to improve your chi sao.

Best of luck to you in your training,
GF

Oh and PS, have any of you learned the 6 basic techniques of chi sao when you first started out? I learned them, but they are from a different lineage than what I train in. My sifu picked it up in the sonny tang system I believe.

[yuanfen]

Lots of folks roll faster with their hands unconnected with their brains.

Before good rolling skills are improved one does not really learn much by attacks.

While chi sao is not fighting- its the best prelude to fighting IMO.

Wing chun is not the only way to learn martial things---but if it is wing chun - without chi sao- it is something else.

[mossman]

Going back to dan chi sau is a good point. I learned all elements to chi sau rather faste and at the time I focused on the movement of my arms and proper positions rather than what I felt.

Perhaps going back and feeling these movements is a good idea. How should I go about doing this? Would closing my eyes and doing dan chi sau really help? I think I have forgotten some of them actually. Ever since I started doing chi sau, I have never gone back and touched up on just single hands.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by mossman
Going back to dan chi sau is a good point. I learned all elements to chi sau rather faste and at the time I focused on the movement of my arms and proper positions rather than what I felt.

Perhaps going back and feeling these movements is a good idea. How should I go about doing this? Would closing my eyes and doing dan chi sau really help? I think I have forgotten some of them actually. Ever since I started doing chi sau, I have never gone back and touched up on just single hands.

Mossman, you are pretty much right on track. My sifu taught me to always look back to the SLT, and dan chi sao. You can close your eyes or blind fold yourself. Just make sure you are feeling, and not sparring. Feel the energies of your motions and your partners and concentrate on them. You will feel a difference as you progress. I know I feel a difference in the motions now. You will only get more and more sensitive as time goes on. Just remember it takes time.

Best of luck in your training,
GF

[Wingman]

Rolling hand chi sao is probably the most misunderstood & abused kind of chi sao. People do rolling hand chi sao just for the sake of rolling. They want to get done with it and move on to free style chi sao as soon as possible. Rolling hand chi sao is boring; while free style chi sao is more exciting.

Actually, rolling hand chi sao is more than just rolling. You are practicing simultaneous attack and defense with your partner. Let's break the movements down:

You -- right hand = bong sao; left hand = fook sao
Partner -- right hand = tan sao; left hand = fook sao

You can either start attacking with your right hand or your left hand; and so can your partner. Let's say, You start attacking with your right hand. You convert your bong sao into a strike. Your Partner controls your strike with his left fook sao. Your Partner may try to convert his fook sao into an attack. You neutralize his intended attack by converting your strike with a tan sao.

While all this is going on with your right hand (and your Partner's left hand), your left hand fook sao is busy controlling your Partner's right hand attack. Your fook sao can be converted into a strike. This will force your Partner to convert his strike into a bong sao.

From the above example, we can see that each partner is trying to neutralize each others' attack. We can also see that each partner's right and left hand work in unison but at the same time, independently.

Rolling hand chi sao is not a mechanical drill. From the example, you have initially 2 options. You can start by attacking with either your right or left hand. Your Partner too have the same 2 options. So initially, there are at least 4 options or openning moves. These options multiply as the chi sao goes along.

Chi sao is more like a chess game. That's why chi sao should be done slowly at first. Doing chi sao slowly will give time for beginners to weigh their options; and decide which option is the best.

[Keng Geng]

An important part of my training in chi sau was to chi sau without actually hitting. Instigating attacks for your partner to respond to, without you finishing it off. There is much to be learned in this. But ego must be dropped.

[Ultimatewingchun]

NOT SO HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO...

You are already in Wing Chun say...at least 8-9-10 years...you've learned the forms...all the drills leading up to chi sao..pak sao drills, lop sao drills...whatever drills...and you've learned dan chi sao, luk sao (rolling hands)...and of course double-armed chi sao itself...including a whole array of moves, situations, and responses that come out of double arm chi sao...you've done some stance and footwork training...you've come to understand (and can apply) the proper amount of energy reasonably well...you've done some kiu sao...sparring...wooden dummy...you've become pretty proficient at how and when to kick...etc.

And for the next six months...and it will occur, let's say, three times per week...and each of these classes you will be attending will be two hours long...and just for the sake of argument let's say that everyone there is just about where you are in terms of Wing Chun development...

How much time do you want to spend at this class doing chi sao?

How much time do you want to spend doing other things?

And what are those things?

[FooFighter]

I think professional and serious martial artists should be focusing on three phases: physical conditioning, tactical training, and tecnhical training. Since people can not train 6-8 hours a day like some of the most senior students of Yip Man, I think more time should be to devoted to physical conditioning and tactical conditioning than Chi Sao which seems to be often neglected. There is a big difference of learning technique and learning tactics. There is gap and most people dont know that there is a gap in their traini g. I think "Tactical training" is mentally preparing students how to think and apply their technique realistically. In some cases tactics alone can out beat technique. Some styles are not know for their tecniques alone but some are truly know for their "tactics". However, once you repeat your tactics to the same person or group it becomes less effective. What has more freedom tatics or techniques? This is why MMA is so popular and growing such as a rapid rate. People study not just techniques alone, but look for their tactical methodology.

[yuanfen]

Foofighter sez:
I think professional and serious martial artists should be focusing on three phases: physical conditioning, tactical training, and tecnhical training.
----------------------------------------------------------------
A few comments- generally yes-points well taken--- but the details can be style or activity or function specific.
BTW-I am very conservative in applying the term "professional"
(from root-profession?)- perhaps profession ina loose sense of someone accepting money?

A marathon runners conditioning regimen is usually different from that of a 100 yard sprinter.

The tactics of a south paw boxer can be different from regular stance person and both can be different froma wrestlers plus variations for size, weight and other variables.

"technical training" can vary based on questions of sources of power and systems of delivery..

Regarding- the popularity of mma---wing chun originally was a minority art- I see no problem if other arts are more popular now or in the future..

[FooFighter]

yuanfen

I barely understood your reply and it was not written clearly enough so I could understand your point of view. As for my use of professional, I used it to distinguish two types of martial artists.
A professional martial artists is someone who makes his living off his knowledge and skills alone. For example, I think there is a big difference bewteen a professional boxer and a boxer who just does it as a hobby. Likewise, there is a huge difference between a professional martial artists and nonprofessional martial artists. When there is healthy level of greed involved you tend to really tend to take care of securing your position and craft. Yenfen, did your wing chun teacher teach you for free?

You mentioned "SAID principle" and that would fall under physical conditioning and without explaining why or how this is related to your point. However I think you have misunderstood the tactical training that I am speaking about. Can you tell me the difference between physical conditioning, tactical training, and tecnhical training? I argued that physical and tactical training is not often trained enough in the martial arts.


"The tactics of a south paw boxer can be different from regular stance person and both can be different froma wrestlers plus variations for size, weight and other variables."

Your point is, Fen?

"technical training" can vary based on questions of sources of power and systems of delivery..

your point is?

"Regarding- the popularity of mma---wing chun originally was a minority art- I see no problem if other arts are more popular now or in the future.."

Your point is?

[yuanfen]

Comments on foofighter's post in brackets:

A "Professional" martial artists is someone like who makes his sole a living off his skills and knowledge.

((See my comment agin- I understand if accepting money is the major definition of a profession. There are other usages))

For example, I think there is a big difference bewteen a professional boxer and a boxer who just does it as a hobby.

((Sure- nothing I said contradicts that))

Yenfen, did your wing chun teacher teach you for free?

((It's yuanfen thankyou. My teacher is not relevant to this discussion. BTW- I went to him for his competence and knowledge- not because of fees))

You wrote "SAID principle" and that would fall under physical conditioning and without explaining why or how this is related to your point. But I think you dont misunderstood the tactical training that I am speaking about.

(("said principle"? I wrote that? Where? Perhaps a broken telephone))


"The tactics of a south paw boxer can be different from regular stance person and both can be different froma wrestlers plus variations for size, weight and other variables."

Your point is, Fen?

((tactics are not fixed- vary with material, supply lines, terrain, objectives among other things. Last Saturday- Zab Judah and pinks fought/boxed- both their tactics were quite different from two
regular stance fighters- watch their feet))

"technical training" can vary based on questions of sources of power and systems of delivery..

your point is?
((Speaks for itself. If you are going to use the po pai jeung you(genric you) have to develop the po pai jeung and the necessary body connections))

"Regarding- the popularity of mma---wing chun originally was a minority art- I see no problem if other arts are more popular now or in the future.."

Your point is?

((An observation. Expressinga perspective. Not debating- so debating points dont matter))

[Gangsterfist]

Joy,

I would have to agree with you on this. I don't care how unpopular or popular wing chun gets. It is a great system of kung fu, definately one of the better ones I have trained.

Wing Chun by nature was designed to be effective with out physical conditioning. Some arts, like Choy Lay Fut, do emphasize and incorporate physical conditioning into their training. Please, do not get me wrong, a good CLF guy can really do some damage. It is definately an art I hold in high respects. Also, physical conditioning definately helps your kung fu. I am all for conditioning, and infact do some myself (push ups, crunches, ab wheel, forearm, dummy, long pole, etc). In wing chun we have the wooden dummy, which is not meant to physically condition your body. It is to teach you application of techniques, how to cross over to different gates, and how to affect your opponet. The physical conditioning you get is a coincidental side effect of the main training. The long pole is the same way. You are developing different footwork, different range fighting, and different motions and energies. Also, with the long pole you get a good work out because the long pole is heavy, but again its a coincidental benefit, not its main purpose. I am not saying you do not need physical conditioning, it can be an important aspect of training and martial arts. I think technique and delivery are best. Ideally you want to destroy your opponet as fastly as possible with least amount of effort.

Chi sao is a tool to help you seek/crash/create bridges. It helps you develope sensitivity, it helps develope technique. It also conincidently works out your shoulders and arm muscles, but that is not its main purpose. I know I have gotten great work outs from just a few hours of chi sao.

[yuanfen]

GF sez:
Also, physical conditioning definately helps your kung fu.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without question- but an issue is what kinds of conditioning and for what purpose.(for a specific match? Against who? What kinds of functions are favored by the "rules"? For general kung fu progression? For health?)

And involves analysis of each persons weaknesses and strengths.

Even in sports good athletic trainers are purposeful.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by yuanfen
GF sez:
Also, physical conditioning definately helps your kung fu.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without question- but an issue is what kinds of conditioning and for what purpose.(for a specific match? Against who? What kinds of functions are favored by the "rules"? For general kung fu progression? For health?)

And involves analysis of each persons weaknesses and strengths.

Even in sports good athletic trainers are purposeful.

Very true, I guess it comes down to your own personal goals.

[Nick Forrer]

my instructor told me that when he first started learning the pole with WSL his arms were so wrecked he couldn't even pick up a pair of chop sticks that night.

[Lindley57]

Mossman,

Some good posts seemed to have helped you come to good conclusions about your process. One important aspect I would like to add, which I did not see, is the concept of Good Sihing (Sijay)/Good Sidai (Simui). You should consciously acknowledge your position when playing Chi Sao as a senior or junior student. When you are the junior student, take a step back and work on the basics - good horse and holding good center and position. Divorce yourself from disrespecting your senior by attacking them (unless agreed upon). When you are the senior, this is the appropriate time for you to explore performing more aggressive and offensive movements. You can honestly take risks. This creates a balance in your training, which is truly available within your kwoon.

Also explore other variations of Chi Sao such as long arm, high energy, and blindfold Chi Sao.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

[Nick Forrer]

'You should consciously acknowledge your position when playing Chi Sao as a senior or junior student.'

I beg to differ on this point, Junior/senior etc. are unimportant in learning wing chun- what matters is level of skill- not who started first/ has been there longer.

'Divorce yourself from disrespecting your senior by attacking them'

I dont see that this is disrespectful- if you're confident in your own abilities you dont need artificial barriers like 'status' to protect you from embarrasment at the hands of someone less experienced.

Of course its always good to establish a relationship with someone before you go hitting them in face (even if accidently)- this helps to avoid getting things getting heated.

[KenWingJitsu]

'You should consciously acknowledge your position when playing Chi Sao as a senior or junior student.'

Nonsense.

[AndrewS]

There is no 'junior' or 'senior'. . . .









HANDS TALK!!!





Andrew

[Ernie]

['You should consciously acknowledge your position when playing Chi Sao as a senior or junior student.']

man that's just silly , part of my training is to let my si dai try and tear my head off
if i have any real skill i should be able to play at half the speed and have no intent just control them

and guess what when your working that way you will get hit and alot but you just relax and flow and my si dai get to work there stuff and let it fly with having to worry about me turning it up and trying to prove i know more

problem is people still think as chi sau as a competition

for example nick you said
[to protect you from embarrasment at the hands of someone less experienced]

how can there be any embarrasment if there is no competition

what is there to be embarresed about it's only chi sau

does a boxer get embarresed if he gets tagged in a sparring match or even better example a jab drill . of course not
it's all about tool and skill development

people who think skill in chi sau translates into a fighting skill trip me out

but if all you do is chi sau i guess it'a all you have so it has to try and fill every void

people really need to shut up and glove up and learn how to train.

[KenWingJitsu]

lol.

I love you guys.

[Gangsterfist]

You should consciously acknowledge your position when playing Chi Sao as a senior or junior student.'


This is very true in a sense. You need to recognize that your senior students are a great asset of knowledge and can teach you many things. I always respect my seniors and when we touch hands and chi sao, they can always point out something I need to improve on.

It is also important to recognize superior positions while doing chi sao. Some people make it into a fight, and do not acknowledge certain things. Once someone is completely put in an inferior position you need to acknowledge it and start over.

I give constructive advice to all my junior brothers/sisters. If I see them doing something wrong I always help them. If I am wrong, sifu will correct both of us haha. I don't like it when people see you doing something wrong and do not correct you simply to always have the upper hand or for ego purposes. That is strictly not allowed in the kwoon I train in.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Gangsterfist:

Acknowledging that a senior now has a superior position - or acknowledging the strikes that your senior has landed (or could continue landing if he wanted to)...THAT'S OKAY.

And in fact, giving that kind of respect to his skills is welcome and appropriate.

But that is NOT THE SAME THING as acknowledging his skills BEFOREHAND...by not trying your best against him...DURING THE CHI SAO...

or during the sparring - or whatever else you do that is competitive.

No one gains by that kind of "protocol", IMO. In fact - it promotes and encourages a false sense of who's who and what's what.

[Gangsterfist]

I agree Victor, however it seems that what the original poster (lindley57) said might be taken out of context. You should always be humble in your training and patient. However, assuming you are better than your senior or juniors is absurd. Throw away your ego at the door. I have been floored by women that are 60lbs lighter and 5 to 7 inches shorter than me, then again I have taken men 50-60lbs heavier than me down and made them tap out in seconds. I try not to let ego get in the way of my training.

However, I do realize when sparring and chi saoing with seniors (who have several years more experience than me) and sifu that sometimes they drop themselves to my level of skill so I can learn. If they just beat the crap out of me all the time I probably would not learn anything. This is not always true, because there are times they do go hard on me. However, I realize that certain times sifu (or a senior) is playing nice and if they wanted to "knock me out" they could.

There is a difference between sparring and real fighting. I acknowledge that in a real fight all the moves I get off against my sifu while sparring would not work against someone his skill level probably.

My point is there has to be a balance in your training. There is a time to develope the skill, and a time to learn how to execute it once its developed. There will be varying degrees of difficulty in your training. For, example when I first started doing 2 hand chi sao drills my sifu taught me 6 basic techniques to practice. I would roll with him for about an hour or so during class (and with my seniors) and just practice rolling and those basic 6 techniques. Now, these basic 6 techniques will not really work against my sifu when we chi sao. So, their main purpose was to build attributes and introduce me to chi sao. For me to pull off one of the basic techniques I learned the opportunity usually has to present itself. Most people are aware of the 6 basics we learned in class and well aware of their counters.

So, it is IMHO very important to know the varying degrees of training. To know when you are building attributes and skills and when you are learning to actually exectue them. If you do not then you are cheating yourself. Because on the streets some of your moves that worked in class may not work for you. Again this is just my opinion from my limited 5 years of martial arts training. So, you may or may not agree with it, but I just thought I would share.

[KenWingJitsu]

However, assuming you are better than your senior or juniors is absurd.

Uh no it isnt. 'senior' means nothing except in the sick twisted mind of the wing chun culture. If your senior sucks, he sucks. Only way to know is......


Throw away your ego at the door.

If there are no 'senior' or junior' and people train 'real', then....the ego gets a check every time there's contact :D

I just hate the 'sifu/student "mentality". "Respect" is healthy...subordination is not.

[Gangsterfist]

KenWingJitsu-

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I said:

However, assuming you are better than your senior or juniors is absurd.

Assuming you are better than anyone is absurd is what I said. Notice both the words junior and senior are in that sentence. Asumptions will not get you anywhere.

Like I said earlier its just my opinion. If you disagree that is fine. I am not trying to prove a point or debate this issue. I am simply stating my opinion based on my experiences. If you do not think that way, then you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. However, I digress, niether my opinion nor your opinion is right or wrong.

Your sifu may be traditional or non traditional. I have known both types of teachers. One of my new teachers who I am considering training with does not allow you to call him sifu. He is not traditional. My other sifu, is and wants you to call him sifu. I am okay with both ways and respect each of their own views. The senior students have responsibilities as well. Seniors are there to help out the juniors (at least it is that way from both people I know, traditional and non-traditional). If the teacher/sifu decides to teach the juniors a new part of the form, or a drill, whatever; a lot of times the senior most student will lead the seniors in other forms or other drills. If you do not have respect for the people who train you, or the people you train with you will not gain anything.

You also said:
---------------
If there are no 'senior' or junior' and people train 'real', then....the ego gets a check every time there's contact
---------------

Very true, but that would be learning the hard way. I also agree that some people just have to learn the hard way. The people I train with try not to learn the hard way and be civil to each other. Like I said earlier, this has just been my opinion based of my experiences.

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Ernie

You wrote

'for example nick you said
[to protect you from embarrasment at the hands of someone less experienced]

how can there be any embarrasment if there is no competition

what is there to be embarresed about it's only chi sau'

I feel you are taking me out of context here. In fact you and me are on the same page. If you read the whole sentence I meant to imply that some people view chi sau this way- not that i do or that one should.

Just to clarify:)

[KenWingJitsu]

Ok. No harm no foul; if you had put "anyone" instead of "seniors or juniors" we would have been on the same page. I completely agree. Chi-sao is and should remain non-competitive.

[Ernie]

nick

yea i used your wording out of context :D

just trying to get a point across , i feel you and i are pretty much on the same page on many things , and i didn't think you would take it personal :D

it's just one of my touchy spots this whole chi sau thing and how people approach it

there is training and there is fighting

some people are great at training all aspects of it
but can't knock out a blind librarian with a peg leg

then there are those that suck at training but come to life in a fight

but the whole I can dominate or touch you in chi sau thing is just about the saddest thing in wing chun next of course to the brain washing and politics


as i get better i can touch and even in some moments control gary does that mean i can go toe to toe with him in a fight

hell no

i would get wrecked his fight experience is light years ahead of mine

yet some one trapped by chi sau non sense fairy tale filters watching me work out with him
and us trade control and shots might get a silly notion that i have a upper hand

we are playing a game and in this game if you leave yourself open to attacks to test your reflexes you will get caught is just how it goes ,

it kills me when i roll with some one and there soooooo wound up and trying to dominate center with everything they got . going 100 miles an hour , huffing and puffing like there life is on the line

never really feeling anything just reacting as fast and hard as the can --------like they were fighting ------------it's so hard for me not to just bust up :)



so sorry if you took it the wrong way bro

[Nick Forrer]

Not at all man- we're A ok


:)

Was it Gary that said - to chi sau well you need to have a big heart

[Gangsterfist]

ernie says:
---------------
it kills me when i roll with some one and there soooooo wound up and trying to dominate center with everything they got . going 100 miles an hour , huffing and puffing like there life is on the line
------------

Yup, I can't agree more. Chi Sao is a game, not sparring. Using slow controlled movements, not fast combat movements. You are building skills and attributes that carry over to fighting.

[Ernie]

nick
Was it Gary that said - to chi sau well you need to have a big heart

ha ha yep but in the same breath he will tell you sometime you need to be selfish and just do your thing who cares what the other guy is doing :)

but like he always tells me '' ernie your to nice and play around to much ''

sometimes he wants me to '' put on a show''
but i'm in my own world and just do my own thing :D

[Lindley57]

Gangsterfist,

Your understanding of my comment is appreciated. The study of Kung Fu is a process. You will note the negative or contrary comments comee from those whose perspective is solely from their own experience. My response was to Mossman, who is seemingly in an early stage of playing and learning Chi Sao. The evolution of selfishness (which can be a good thing) in ones training is a phase, one that should not appropriately come during the beginning stages of learning Chi Sao.

Those who say there is no such things as Seniors and Juniors, please do not show limited thinking. A "true" Senior is a respected sihing/sijay in the class, not just anyone who has "just been there longer". A true Junior is one looking for the guidance from their Senior brothers/sisters. The training of Kung fu is a passing of knowledge, a leverage of the experiences of the Sifu and those seniors.

When training, some of us need the "feeding of the hands" and the breakdown in understanding to get something "under our belt" before engaging in a "free style" of Chi Sao. This is what separates us from the sparring in most martial art schools. The cooperation is one part of fueling understanding.

Finally, my comments were offered as suggestion, not an absoloute.

The key to enlightenment is the true acceptance that everyone is not the same.

Good luck to you all in your Kung Fu

[KenWingJitsu]

When training, some of us need the "feeding of the hands"

What is feeding of the hands?


and the breakdown in understanding to get something "under our belt" before engaging in a "free style" of Chi Sao.

free style of chi-sao. Ah yes...you mean the dreaded "pretend to fight from chi-sao" disease?


This is what separates us from the sparring in most martial art schools.

:rolleyes: :p

[kj]

KWJ,

With all due respect, rather than continued bursts of sarcasm perhaps you'd be generous enough to elucidate your own sequence and method of Wing Chun learning and development. Starting from your pre-Wing Chun state to present would help to ensure we don't miss any critical steps or make undue assumptions about your process. The plan for your near and longer term development may offer bonus insights. I'm sure there are many of us on this forum who could benefit from details of your experience, methodology, and training philosophy far more than we do from the usual castigations.

Any notable lessons learned - both things that went well, and things that could have been improved would also be insightful. Your philosophy of "fight more, chi sau less" has been made abundantly clear, so something more discriminating and specific would be most helpful.

Given your background, not to mention the obvious respect displayed by your direct acquaintances and peers, I have every confidence that you have considerable and constructive experience yet to share.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

I think there are other approaches rather than the ones mentioned.

Rolling in BJJ is meant to be a cooperative learning experience ... though any one who has done much of it knows that it ain't always that way.

The ideal situation for the less skilled student is for the better guy to not always go all out to submit him, but to maybe roll at a level 5% above him, and put him in situations to see how he'll react and extend himself.

Then again, the sessions you probably learn the most from are those when you are rolling with someone much more skilled than you. My teacher's teacher told me once that HIS teacher once spent an hour long rolling session doing nothing but catching him in armbar after armbar, over and over. Not much fun at the time, but afterwards the guy got caught in armbars MUCH less and so the result was a big plus.

In my own experience, even rounds where I've just been totally dominated have been of great value. sometimes a win for me isn't getting a sub, but escaping from a pin he always caught me in before, or stop him getting a sub for two minutes instead of only one.

The main problem with chi sao is that the "results" are so open to misinterpretation. How often do we hear of someone going to a school and ask to do chi sao with the instructor, tap him with a couple of pattycakes which wouldn't hurt a fly, and then boast to the internet at large that he bested the instructor? There is so much room for those who regard such things as important to misinterpret and misuse the outcome, and no respect for the the drill or its intent.


The key to enlightenment is the true acceptance that everyone is not the same.

I think there's more to it than that, somehow.

[Tom Kagan]

The main problem with chi sao is that the "results" are so open to misinterpretation. How often do we hear of someone going to a school and ask to do chi sao with the instructor, tap him with a couple of pattycakes which wouldn't hurt a fly, and then boast to the internet at large that he bested the instructor? There is so much room for those who regard such things as important to misinterpret and misuse the outcome, and no respect for the the drill or its intent.

Given the variety of different types of people who wish to study martial arts and fast-forwarding the growth of Brazilian Ju Jitsu another decade or two, it would not surprise me if something similar emerges for Brazilian Ju Jitsu.

In fact, today I already can open a magazine and find an advertisment which promises a person can receive a Black Belt in Brazilian Ju Jitsu in a relatively short time by following a course. Perhaps it is a great course, but, perhaps I am not an appropriate person to review it especially since I don't follow it. :) However, I have a gut-level feeling that most practitioners of Brazilian Ju Jitsu would, at the least, raise an eyebrow after reading the advertisment in question.

I will absolutely give all due respect to the legions of people learning good quality Brazilian Ju Jitsu. But, I do not see it as outside of the realm of possibility that Brazilian Ju Jitsu will soon be in a similar situation as for the above situation you describe in Ving Tsun.

No judgment is intended on my part. I'm just attempting to express an observation you may or may not find interesting.

[KenWingJitsu]

rather than continued bursts of sarcasm perhaps you'd be generous enough to elucidate your own sequence and method of Wing Chun learning and development. Starting from your pre-Wing Chun state to present

kj, I have done this in the past. Several times in fact. Wasnt' too popular here. In a nutshell, wing chun training has to be taken from chi-sao to it's actual possible applicatins, and those applications need to be trained in the "real pressure" context of combat/fighting.

My first question about "what is feeding hands" was not sarcastic. I would like to know what that vague sounding term really means.

My second comment about "frestyle chi-sao was definitely sarcastic, and I dont apologize for that. Why? in my recent posts on other threads I have made the distiction between chi-sao and free fighting. Again, not too may responded in agreeance, but hey. I made my point clear.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
I will absolutely give all due respect to the legions of people learning good quality Brazilian Ju Jitsu. But, I do not see it as outside of the realm of possibility that Brazilian Ju Jitsu will soon be in a similar situation as for the above situation you describe in Ving Tsun.While it is possible for this to happen, it will be on a relatively small scale. The reason for this is that you have to continually "prove" yourself in BJJ.

Almost every training session has a hard sparring period where you grapple against your peers, lower belts, higher belts, and anyone who might be visiting from other schools.

Most BJJ schools also have competition teams that compete in either open BJJ tourneys, vale tudo/MMA competitions, or both.

Watered down skills are quickly exposed in this competitive type of environment.

[yuanfen]

FWIW I do find bursts of cutting sarcasm in KWJ's posts including the one above where he first comments on KJ's post. Such as:

<free style of chi-sao. Ah yes...you mean the dreaded "pretend to fight from chi-sao" disease?>


There are many different approaches to learning in wing chun and I see no problem in explaining one's own approach .

What is meant by chi sao and it's fighting applications varies considerably from what i have seen of most versions of wing chun that I have seen.

Actual "fighting" is "fighting"-the rest are all simulations of fighting of different kinds and degrees- with or without pressure.

yuanfen

[Gangsterfist]

Chi sao is a skill developer, an attribute toner, a sensitivity drill. When I get hit in chi sao and could not feel the strike coming, that was a good hit. When I feel it coming or 'seeking' its not a bad move, its just that I can feel it. The idea must be a two way street. It is a two person drill. You must acknowledge when you get hit. In chi sao if someone gets a neck chop off then the chi sao is over, start again. I see a lot of times this happen and the person who gets chopped in the neck tries to fight back. In a real fight this would not happen. For one your head would be jerked back, or down depending on the srike. So, you would be thrown off root and your structure would be broken. You would have to do something drastic to get that hit off, and thats saying that you took the chop to the neck and survived.

Now, it is totally possible to chop someone in the neck and them not go down, and if that happens you may want to start running. Some people are just naturally tough and can take stuff like that. I am also assuming here the neck chop was executed with precision and power (internal power) striking through the neck, not striking the surface.

This is where chi sao fails. It will build a blanket of false protection around you. If you cannot feel the strike coming in when in trapping range, you will probably get hit. When you get hit, your body will probably torque in some way. When this happens almost any strike you had going probably won't be effective. Especially when fighting a good wing chunner, they know not to let up and replace the hands constantly trapping and striking, etc.

I always start off chi saoing slow with my partner and build it up from there. I like to get a feel of what they are doing and their energy. Like if they are heavy, or drilling, or passive, or no intent or too much intent, etc. Chi sao is not a fight, and if you do it wrong you are cheating yourself. If you win a chi sao contest, it does not make you a good fighter.

Toi(sp?) sao is very similar in taiji. It is also known as push hands. The only difference is you are not trying to drill right through your oppoents center, you are trying to throw them off center with circular and angular motions. I practice both and for the longest time I kept trying to do push hands like chi sao. I kept losing too. I think doing push hands opened my eyes and broadened my ideas of chi sao and kung fu in general. I recomend you find a good taiji person and train with them at least once to get a different perspective on how energies are issued.

There is one constant in toi(toy, sp?) sao and chi sao. To strike your opponet you have to extend yourself, you are also at your weakest when you extend yourself. Keep that in mind. It may not help you, but it has helped me.

Good luck in your training,
GF

[anerlich]

Knifefighter is IMO correct about BJJ.

At present at least, it is very difficult in BJJ to successfully pretend you have skill that you actually do not possess. A few minutes on the mat with anyone will tell you, and anyone else watching, your and their relative level of skill. At present there are few big egos and little mouthboxing in BJJ, as being able to back up your skills with the techniques you would actually use to fight someone is both expected and encouraged. This is an art where you first few years are lessons in humility, through constantly having to admit defeat by tapping, rather than toeing the line because of any Confucianist sifu/sihing/sidai set of traditional relationships.

I agree that, in time, we may see BJJ schools who never compete, who only roll with people from their own academies, or even just drill predetermined techniques and do no free rolling, and then we may start seeing watered-down BJJ.

You may have seen Lloyd Irvin's ads - "The Grappling Blueprint". He gained a legit black belt in BJJ in a few years, as did Matt Serra, but that was with full-time full-bore, uchideshi-style training. His program doesn't make guarantees, it is more of a motivational/mental approach to grappling common-sense really, but if you DO follow it it WILL reduce the time you take to gain skill. It was running pretty hot last year but seems to have slowed a lot lately - the guy did have a family tragedy to deal with as well.

Or it may be our first BJJ McDojo ad ... :eek:

[kj]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
kj, I have done this in the past. Several times in fact. Wasnt' too popular here. In a nutshell, wing chun training has to be taken from chi-sao to it's actual possible applicatins, and those applications need to be trained in the "real pressure" context of combat/fighting.

No worries. I've seen you offer occasional glints of insight in the past. I doubt that I grossly misunderstand where you're coming from. I have a concern that some people might though.

Not all forum readers are as regular, and some may not have pieced together your perspective over time. Many will ignore curt comments, rather than seriously entertain the concerns behind them. Another dilemma is that sharpness often translates [correctly or incorrectly] as being unapproachable; in turn and unfortunately, this can seriously obstruct otherwise constructive communications in the near and long term.

Still, I appreciate that we each have our personas, predilections and styles. No guarantees it keeps the forum dialog balanced, but it does keep the banter interesting. :D


My first question about "what is feeding hands" was not sarcastic. I would like to know what that vague sounding term really means.

Yes, I read that as a legitimate question. Like you I'm interested to hear more. As it turns out, we also use a term called "feeding hands." However, I don't automatically presume that our use of the phrase is the same as Lindley57's, and must therefore defer to him/her to offer the intended meaning.


My second comment about "frestyle chi-sao was definitely sarcastic, and I dont apologize for that.

No apology requested or expected. My intention was to be candid and accurate (thanks for confirming my hit), rather than to offend. I had a hunch you'd catch the difference.

I was also hoping that your communication channel with Lindly57 or others would not be severed by such a comment, e.g., so that perhaps he/she might offer more explanation of the feeding hands.


Why? in my recent posts on other threads I have made the distiction between chi-sao and free fighting. Again, not too may responded in agreeance, but hey. I made my point clear.

Even with my highly refined powers of pattern recognition (LOL), I missed the underlying connection of this particular comment to other recent ones (though I have seen and noted more in the longer term). Our posts are a bit like puzzle pieces, and unfortunately we may inadvertently miss one now and then, getting the wrong picture of each other in mind.

On the subject of chi sau. It is all too easy for a reader to [mis]interpret your position (from one or more posts) as believing that chi sau is a useless endeavor, a thorough waste of time, and something to be avoided or abandoned. Your position on realistic fighting application is infinitely clearer.

In a sense, your fighting-weighted comments provide a balance in the forum, in contrast to many of our chi-sau related comments. FWIW, I don't presume that dialog on such matters is an accurate reflection of the constitution and proportion of anyone's actual practice. Some readers, however, may accurately or inaccurately assume more.

I don't envision that your actual practice of chi sau and sparring/fighting is as disproportional as your comments about them on the forum. I don't presume that you feel that all chi sau is a waste of time, though some readers may perceive that to be your point. I do regret if your real meaning is missed or misunderstood, and suspect that your experience is worthy of more consideration.

Thanks for responding. Here's hoping we can hear more about those feeding hands.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
FWIW I do find bursts of cutting sarcasm in KWJ's posts including the one above where he first comments on KJ's post. Such as:

<free style of chi-sao. Ah yes...you mean the dreaded "pretend to fight from chi-sao" disease?>


This was actually a response to Lindley57's post. I was hoping the dialog would continue.


There are many different approaches to learning in wing chun and I see no problem in explaining one's own approach .

What is meant by chi sao and it's fighting applications varies considerably from what i have seen of most versions of wing chun that I have seen.

Indeed. Until we effectively explain what we mean in our use of terms, real communication is little more than illusion.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

KJ's post and comments:

This was actually a response to Lindley57's post. I was hoping the dialog would continue.

((I checked the sequence of the thread. You are correct. My apologies. The sarcasm is possibly a different matter))


Until we effectively explain what we mean in our use of terms, real communication is little more than illusion.

((true-that is a constant problem on forum communications. And the hope for better communication can wane.
Relatedly, only in part- I intend to cut back on my forum posts.
However,I havent quite mastered Hendrik's phoenix like abilities.
Cheers. Yuanfen/joy))

[Ultimatewingchun]

Some examples of feeding hands:

From chi sao...throwing a palm strike from your rolling tan sao without having control of the centerline to see how your partner will react...punching from fuk sao on his tan without controlling the centerline - to see his reaction...crossing the centerline purposely while rolling to see if your partner picks up on the opportunity to do lop da...etc.

From apart: Throwing this or that type punch or palm strike or whatever at a slow to moderate speed to see how he reacts...

In all cases: you're just "feeding" your partner opportunities to work, drill, and test his knowledge and skills.

[Ernie]

feeding hands

i picked this up from micheal louison

he creates openings so his students can feel the gap and he calls out the hands that should respond to the energy he gives like a boxing coach calling out jab cross hook with focus mitts

after a while the should just respond to the feeling with out anything being said .

like a pre free style type of training geting some one comfortable with there tools before you put in the pressure of competition


i will work this with focus mitts and wing chun hands , to work power and balance

everything changes when you have to really hit and recover from that while covering distance

much different then chi sau were you hold back. or the dummy were it doesn't move , you become a live dummy for the person your training to work there tools in motion with power

and you also fire back to cause them to adapt and change so they are aware not just doing a routine

i feel people get more out of this then chi sau vs chi sau , since i can stay close and offer a connection or break way nd make them close the gap and respond to non wing chun attacks

the whole time they have to keep the pressure on me
:D

another benifit is the feeder gets very good at defense , since shots are coming in with heat on them , you get to work on a calm mind while some one is being very aggressive . win win

[Tom Kagan]

You may be right regarding Brazilian Ju Jitsu.

Still, today, you can see some low-level "chatter" on the internet amongst the grapplers: so-called "blue-belts" having difficulty gaining what I understand as basic concessions from beginners, how "this school" or "that school" is no good or that so-and-so is a fraud, he/she only knows the sport aspect and "couldn't last twenty seconds" in a "real fight", so-and-so is not a legitimate black belt but couldn't open a school as brown so "promoted" themselves, "this type" of grappling is better, etc.

This is without considering the other aspects of human nature: A "Karate" person trading their lightweight Gi for a heavy one and renaming what they do, the people who will trash-talk regardless of whether they were dominated or whether they actually went there, etc.

Human nature, such as it is, even tells me that, chances are, someone, somewhere will read this, take offense, and now wish to "teach me a lesson" about "real" Brazilian Ju Jitsu. (Why a person might think my comments are about them specifically, well ... let's just say that's a part of Human nature I haven't contemplated in detail. :) )


About ten years ago, no major health-club chain offered boxing instruction. Today, such classes are almost ubiquitous. I am sure some of the classes at some of the locations are very good (one major health club near me had Jerry Cooney as the instructor). But, as a "real" martial artist, what is your perception overall of those classes with regards to their effectiveness? Yet, everyone in all the classes everywhere are learning "how to box." And, some of the misguided believe they are becoming adept at self-defense.

Ultimately, only time will tell what becomes of all that will be placed under the "Brazilian Ju Jitsu" banner. A decade or two is a very long time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Tom:

I don't get your point...You seem to be saying that maybe someday there will be be some people who will do the McDojo thing with BJJ...

So?

This kind of thing happens sooner or later with just about every art - does it not?

With "some" people...that is.

[anerlich]

Tom, there is no art so pure that someone cannot water it down and sell it in bulk to the unthinking masses.

It's human nature to seek the "rewards" - status, belt ranking, etc. etc. without having to go through all that hard work, pain, the humiliation of defeat, etc.

Some clever and avaricious soul will, and perhaps already has, seen the money available by teaching crap BJJ to the masses and raking in the cash. Happened with every MA under the sun, including boxing, as you pointed out, And WC.

Trashtalking is prevalent on every internet forum on every subject imaginable, including Wing Chun, which is probably out in front by several thousand light years in that dubious regard.

I discussed BJJ here not because of its superior bada$$ness, but because I felt that common situations that arise in BJJ training may have applicability to WC training. I guess I ranted a little about the abuse of chi sao (the subject of the thread) as a means of allegedly comparing one's skill with others, something less easily done with BJJ, though, I agree, hardly impossible.

If, or when, as you say Cassandra-style, BJJ descends into McDojo hell, will that make WC any better or worse? If you turn out to be right, what good will that do you or anyone else?

A legitimate "win" does not arise from your competitors' performance dropping down to your level. Not meaning "you" specifically, Tom, but the generic "you".

Per Sturgeon's law, 90% of everything is crap. But be sensible, use the 10% as a model for life, not the rest.

[KenWingJitsu]

Mighty fine profound post there Andrew. Wow.

[anerlich]

Thanks, KWJ.

On rereading it, it might have come across as me having taken some offense to what Tom said. I don't disagree with him, and indeed his points bear serious consideration by the BJJ community.

I'd just like to make sure that no one thinks an unrelated MA descending from greatness into mediocrity would somehow be a good thing for us WC practitioners. The opposite would be true IMO.

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by anerlich
Thanks, KWJ.

On rereading it, it might have come across as me having taken some offense to what Tom said. I don't disagree with him, and indeed his points bear serious consideration by the BJJ community.

I'd just like to make sure that no one thinks an unrelated MA descending from greatness into mediocrity would somehow be a good thing for us WC practitioners. The opposite would be true IMO.

I've taken no offense because you've offered none. Also, if I've made any inference as to whether it is good for Brazilian Ju Jitsu to evolve in a fashion, as you put it, "from greatness into mediocrity," that was not my intention at all. Frankly, I don't think that is what happened to Ving Tsun nor do I think, if my observations hold true in a decade or two, that would be the case for Brazilian Ju Jitsu, either.

I certainly can be indirect at times. So, I'll try to back up and explain a bit more directly why I chose to post on this subject.

If I could go back in time to 1965 and make similar observations instead regarding Ving Tsun Paai Kung Fu, I don't think there would have been very many practitioners who would not immediately dismiss my comments as you and Knifefighter did regarding Brazilian Ju Jitsu. I'll go so far as to speculate the reasons given then for why that couldn't happen for Ving Tsun would probably be almost identical to the reasons given as to why Brazilian Ju Jitsu is so clear.

But Ving Tsun, including the cooperative exercise known as ChiSao, is as clear to me today, in 2004, as you point out Brazilian Ju Jitsu is today. I know when I suck and when I don't. :D It's the way I was taught. But, more importantly, it's the way I learn. (I'll recognize that I am fortunate to know the vast difference between being taught and actually learning.)

No one in 1965 could have predicted with any degree of accuracy the growth and evolution of Ving Tsun. It exceeded their wildest dreams. Just because there are a few "nightmares" well beyond their imagination also does not change the core of a system. To those not living the "nightmare" and are well adjusted, they just don't pay it much mind when they invariably encounter one. :)

[KenWingJitsu]

On the subject of chi sau. It is all too easy for a reader to [mis]interpret your position (from one or more posts) as believing that chi sau is a useless endeavor, a thorough waste of time, and something to be avoided or abandoned.

KJ, if anyone automatically assumes this based on my posts, they are not really reading them, as i certainly do not think chi-sao is a useless endeavor. What might be useless, is NOT putting chi-sao in it's proper context. learning chi-sao just beacause....is useless, but learning what chi-sao can do for you in a fight...is not. this is THE single biggest disconnect (pun intended - as you'll soon see) between learning chi-sao and actual combat.


I don't presume that you feel that all chi sau is a waste of time, though some readers may perceive that to be your point. I do regret if your real meaning is missed or misunderstood

Definitely. lol. Again, it's only a waste of time if all you do is chi-sao....with no understanding of what rene ritchie posted once; "poon-sao represents hindered punches" that one phrase alone unlocks the code to chi-sao, but yes,....anytime I mention getting away from chi-sao i.e. "disconnecting" (here's that pun ;) ) the point is missed.

Basically....."freestyle chi-sao" is NOT chi-sao, and it is NOT sparring and it is NOT fighting, and it doesn't help you progress in either. It sort of exists in its own no-man's land and it a great tool to "show off" with, but it means nothign for chi-sao, and it means nothing for fighting. To practice what shi-sao can help you do in a fight, you need to DISCONNECT (TM - Ernie 2004) And have soemone attack you repeatedly......
I can already hear cries of "we do that"....lol. Not if that involves 10 punches with the left hand, 10 punches with the right hand and if the punch misses it just hangs in mid air for like half a day....
The 'disconnected training has to have real "intent" and then real "unexpectedness" (not knowing what your partner is going to do). the only time chi-sao will come into play is if your hands clash (momentarily) or he clinches; otherwise, mow him down (his centerline). Thats about it. I do have ways to train each aspect of chi-sao in a live setting, but maybe later.

[kj]

KWJ,

Wow - that was a superb clarification and an excellent post.

FWIW, semantics and pedantics (sic) aside (something I believe accountable for a non-insignificant proportion of tangents and debates), and reserving just a hint of wiggle room for different ways of slicing a pie, I largely agree with what you wrote. I certainly agree with the essence of it.


Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
I do have ways to train each aspect of chi-sao in a live setting, but maybe later.

I, for one, would love to hear more on your methodology when you can spare the time.

Well done, and thanks.
- kj

P.S. I knew you had it in you. :cool:

[anerlich]

Tom,

That makes a lot of sense. Happy to leave it there.

[Ernie]

dhira
(TM - Ernie 2004)

I try and stay out, but they keep pulling me back in :)

Could we be speaking about, well, I don’t know,,,,,,,, PROGRESSION!!!!!


I have given up trying it online it's a personal journey to self-discovery.

There are 2 camps in my book those that get really good at '' the wing Chun training system ‘‘ chi sau forms, proverbs, buy the shirt own all the tapes, read the books
Stay with in the bubble and will forever have theory after theory about how to stop a jab or a cross adnausium
They will complain about root and weight and the angle of a tan sau, were there chi is located and so on [you would think is was tai chi]


And then those that burst the bubble and get good at application
And they will fight and train hard and not talk about endless theories but more about timing and conditioning and will not need to ask how to stop a jab or a hook, because they have done it hundreds of times against all types of people
And they two camps will never see eye to eye and throw little programmed responses at each other


But for the greater benefit of wing Chun they both need healthy progression
Theory must be proven [by each individual] in live application outside of wing Chun vs. wing Chun chi sau

And this self-discovery will give you a deeper and real understanding of the theory

So it works both ways


I looked at the forum today and was just saddened by the fact that a martial art as effective as wing Chun has people asking how to deal with a simple jab
And most of the answers are based on speculation, must just be the gray clouds out side

:rolleyes:

[russellsherry]

hi guys, good threard , chi sua was quite hard fo me, to become , any good at it , for along time .what did to train was, lots and lotS of slow poon sua getting my centerline correct, and footwork , postion correct , later i added slowly lap sau , when sifu randy came taught me , about, leakage movements ginger fist ete and how to apply them in chi sau also i think, it is important to use forward pressure as eary as possiable to help
you with forward movements.. peacerussellsherry

[Gangsterfist]

KWJ said:

...the only time chi-sao will come into play is if your hands clash (momentarily) or he clinches;...


I agree with this to an extent. That is one of the major reasons we chi sao. To trap, and avoid being trapped, and feel what our opponet is doing. However, I see it more broadly than you do. Chi sao can help develope sensitivity skills beyond just touching hands. You can apply it to kicks, foot work, sticking, ground fighting, basically anywhere there is contact for a moment. Obviously if they are just blasting you with attacks and not giving enough time to 'feel' them, then you really can't apply chi sao skills.

Good post though KWJ, you made some good points.

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
Could we be speaking about, well, I don’t know,,,,,,,, PROGRESSION!!!!!

Either that or "functionalizing." :D
- kj

[Ernie]

"functionalizing."


to make functional ones foot
to functionally break it off in someones a$$
and knock them flat on there back

so defined by my ghetto a$$ grand ma and her school of hard knocks dictionary

so there:p :p :p


death to all word nerds :D

[kj]

I'm just laughing too hard to fight back.
- kj

[anerlich]

I'm not a fan of "functionalize", but the words I really hate are "mentor" (used as a verb) and "facilitate".

Every time I hear some marketeer say one of those, I want to hit them in the face with a flying knee :mad:

[Gangsterfist]

OMG don't get me started on words. I hate the word phenominal its way over used. if something is always phenominal then the word has no meaning. The word litterally is way over used, and used in the wrong context as well.

Man, I litterally crapped my pants.

You crapped your pants, what did you do then?

No man, I didn't really crap my pants, I litterally crapped my pants

or from sports announcers,

Man did you see that? He litterally took that guy's head off.

(stole that from dave cross, but I have always felt that way)

The word ultimate is way over used as well. Everything is the ultimate which again defeats the meaning of the word.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by anerlich
I'm not a fan of "functionalize", but the words I really hate are "mentor" (used as a verb) and "facilitate".

Every time I hear some marketeer say one of those, I want to hit them in the face with a flying knee :mad:

Andrew wants to get functional on a marketeer's face.:)

[kj]

Originally posted by anerlich
I'm not a fan of "functionalize", but the words I really hate are "mentor" (used as a verb) and "facilitate".

Every time I hear some marketeer say one of those, I want to hit them in the face with a flying knee :mad:

:eek::eek: These, [insert terms here], are central themes in what I do for a living. No wonder I'm always dodging things - ha ha! When you stop to think about it, it's little wonder our Wing Chun is so different. :D

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Repeated use of "litterally" annoys the bejeevers out of me too. :D

Regards,
- kj

[anerlich]

What is wrong with "teach" and "help"?

[kj]

Originally posted by anerlich
What is wrong with "teach" and "help"?

Well, for one thing, a mentor may not teach, and a facilitator may or may not help. :D

Regards,
- kj

[kungfu cowboy]

(rimshot!) Thank you folks, kj will be appearing here all week! Enjoy your dinners!:D

[anerlich]

Well, for one thing, a mentor may not teach, and a facilitator may or may not help.

And if they call themselves those things, they are probably much less likely to provide or be able to provide useful instruction or assistance. Nor - IMO - are they likely to be examples any sane person would want to follow. ;)

And if they don't teach and help respectively (or better yet do both), how then are they of use to anybody?

I was assigned a mentor once. That person and their unsolicited interference in getting my job done were the two biggest factors in my decision to leave that company ;)

There may be useful mentors or facilitators out there, but so far they have managed to avoid contact with me. Not so their less adept colleagues.

I'm sure *you* could change my opinion, KJ.

[kj]

Originally posted by anerlich
I was assigned a mentor once. That person and their unsolicited interference in getting my job done were the two biggest factors in my decision to leave that company ;)

"Assigned a mentor"??? Sounds like someone was grasping for a euphemism. Barnacle (http://www.psrc.usm.edu/macrog/mpm/composit/bio/barnacle.htm) seems a better fit.

Here's to training that provides adequate stress relief.

Regards,
- kj

[KenWingJitsu]

Chi sao can help develope sensitivity skills beyond just touching hands. You can apply it to kicks, foot work, sticking, ground fighting
Yes of course. this is also true. I was only referring to the 'techniques' that come from poon-sao. With kicks, it's chi-gerk, on the ground, well, no-one can keep me on the ground if I dont want to be there ;)

Victor thanks for your explanaton of 'feeding'. those techniques you described are the same ones we do in our student level programs. We have chi-sao broken down per student level. I guess calling it feedign hands is another way of describing it.

KJ, I think I will mention some of the progession on another thread. I might make one soon.