CMA type roundhouse in Muy Thai?

[Ralphie]

Question for those that do Muy Thai and/or San Shou:
Do you use a cma type round house ever in mt or ss? I do mt a few times a week, and have been adding a lot of different cma elements into sparring. The round house that I use is where you pull the heel back toward your butt, then quickly kick out striking with the ball of your feet (generally to the abdoment, although other targets are valid as well), then quickly retract. I've been catching guys with this often as either they slide or I slide to the outside. Was basically wondering if anyone else uses or sees this in this type of format?

[apoweyn]

I can't answer your question, I'm afraid. But out of curiosity, what effect is it having? I mean it sounds like you're "scoring" with it. But is it having a demonstrable effect?

[Ralphie]

Many times, I can catch the guy in transition. I've also been training this kick as a skill for years, so the effect seems to be like a good teep. On the low end it stops them from gaining the postition they may have been looking for, on the high end it knocks the wind out of them. I also don't plant it in there 100%, for reasons of safety with training partners. However, it seems to make them think a little more in certain situations.

[Water Dragon]

I throw it CMA style. By CMA style, I mean that instead of pivoting on the ball of my foot when throwing the kick, I'll step (toe out) slightly on a 45 degree angle and throw the kick flat footed.

I still throw the kick bent knee, turn the hip over, point the knee down, keep the hands up though, which I learned from the Thai Boxers.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The round house that I use is where you pull the heel back toward your butt,

Never. Never Ever.

[Ralphie]

why do you say that never? It's not unlike a thai kick as you pivot your planted heel over? In fact, it's pretty close if not identical.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Secondly, you do not "pivot" on your support leg. pivoting, bent kicking legs,, all these things detract hugely from your power generation..

You STEP and plant with your support leg, pointing your toes outside, while you bring the leg and hip THRU the target with speed and torque!

a bent leg will only let you "flick" the target. you'll never get the feeling of crushing thru the target from this grossly bent leg. and if you're pivoting while you kick.. less power. sometimes AFTER a hard kick your momenum will make your support leg pivot.

[Water Dragon]

Thai Kick notes:

1. lift up on the ball of the support leg.
2. Pick the hip up and turn it over. This causes you to pivot on the support leg due to the momentum of the kick.
3. Keep the kicking leg bent. Once you make contact, then PUSH through with your kicking leg. If your leg is already extended, you can't do this.
4. Keep your guard high when you throw the R. House. If you swing an arm back when you kick, you can be countered with a cross.

[Ralphie]

Exactly ST...It's not a replacement for the thai kick. It's like a quick jab to destabalize an opponent looking for a certain angle, with the potential to do a little more. I may steal step or just open the angle in a thai kick, and there may be a pivot or not depending on swing. I know the mechanics pretty well. There's a point after you bring your knee up, and turn your hips over so they are back that your heel is back towards your butt (note: not ****ed in a static position, but referring to the outside to inside wind up that gets your hips back so you can push them through on impact), . It swings out quickly, so it's just a transition, but it's similar to this type of roundhouse as well. Anyway, it's more of an opportunistic thing right now, but it works. Advantage is that it's fast and pretty safe. The disadvantage is that it lacks power, although I've knocked the wind out of people with it. I have only used my lead leg with it as well. Hope I explained that better.

[SifuAbel]

Hey, lets see some samples.

[fa_jing]

If it works, use it. The TKD guys use that kick effectively, if they are traditional, with the lead leg. However, I would take advantage of the opportunity to learn the Thai kick as well.

[Ralphie]

So there's no confusion I use the thai kick quite a bit. The question is if anyone else has used this other type of roundhouse as a weapon in their mt or ss sparring? I will see what I can do about getting pictures as an example Abel.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Ralph - ok. thanks for the clarification, I see that you're not using it as a "this or that", but a "this AND that"


Advantage is that it's fast and pretty safe. The disadvantage is that it lacks power,

I'm still going to disagree. I'll say that they are not safe and that they have little power. I see no positive side. Use the front kick/ and jab to probe. it's the safest. and personally I think "probing" is overrated. If you don't know your range, you're not spending enough time sparring.. A front kick should feel like someone's stomping your guts in. A rear leg front kick - twice as hard.

Roundhouse kicks are easily caught m'kay? trust a san shou guy on this. You're whole body is involved in a round house and in a event that allows clinching & throwing it provides the best time to attack someone due to the commitment. So the ones that you do use need to be low, hard and nasty.

when the moon is right you might see an opporitunity to kick someone's head with one.

[SifuAbel]

Planting and twisting without letting the foot move will wrench the knee. The only thing that needs to be adjusted for the "flick" to have power is to aim a few inches ****her(I can't believe they censor the **** in ****her) in than the surface of the target. The target has to be more "in the way" than "at the very end".

And If you don't have good flexablity in the groin and ham, you're not going to throw a good kick regardless of style.

Those that throw the round with the knee ending down or those that overcompensate by lifting the foot ****her than the knee will not have power.

Throwing the round foot out and back like a side kick also will be weak.

Its got to look like a sideways front kick to have any power at all in that mode of kicking. Its got to be a clean slap with the the knee pointing at the target.

You see plenty of examples of this kick being used effectively in many MMA matches.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Planting and twisting without letting the foot move will wrench the knee.

That's exactly why you must turn the foot to the outside before torquing the hips/leg.




The only thing that needs to be adjusted for the "flick" to have power is to aim a few inches ****her(I can't believe they censor the **** in ****her) in than the surface of the target

I don't buy it. I understand what you're saying but you're not generating enough power.. no amount of "aiming" is going to generate more power. save the visualization for mental preparation ala Jim Thorpe.


And If you don't have good flexablity in the groin and ham, you're not going to throw a good kick regardless of style.

While I agree to a certain point, I've seen many kickboxers who weren't very flexible, have wicked round house kicks.




You see plenty of examples of this kick being used effectively in many MMA matches.

Of a "thai" style kick, or the flick kick? as for the first, for the majority it's almost low on the thigh and thrown after a solid combination.

[Ralphie]

right Abel. I'm prolly not doing a great job at description...busy week and brains a little fried. Anyway, a picture of what I'm talking about statically is shoulder, hip, and knee are in a line. The knee is raised, and pointed down. The planted heel is already at 45 toward the opponent. The kicking heel is pulled back toward the butt. The kick (@waist or lower) snaps out and slightly downward, then retracts in the same path. The striking surface is the ball of the foot. I've practiced it historically with speed focused on the retraction. This does not guarantee someone will not catch it, but it will reduce the chance. Even when I do vale tudo sparring, I can land this kick without it being caught by guys who are looking for an opening for the clinch/takedown. Again, it is a situational type kick, and by lacks power, I mean it is not as powerfull as a thai kick, but still seems to do damage.
A Thai kick has been described to me as a bat swinging, this kick is more like a penetrating kick.

[SevenStar]

ST is repeatedly landing thai style roundhouse kicks on the correct's thighs, leaving his shin mark after each kick.

[backbreaker]

Most Cma type kicks I find are illegal, because they are usually trips and sweeps. The first time I sparred I used a sort of ax kick from the inside/clinch, but now I would just push off the opponent to break the clinch and throw regular muay thai head high rounhouse as described by someone else in another post. I use power from both legs though, especially front push kick

[ShaolinTiger00]

are illegal

In what format?:confused:

[backbreaker]

Muay thai sparring, it's illegal to use the back of your leg to attack the back of their leg, or hook it or trip, actually I think sweeps are fine.

[SevenStar]

not the kick itself most likely - the target of it. you can't sweep in muay thai - it's gotta be like a cut kick. you can't do a straight kick right to the knee either. But PLEASE, don't let this turn into a "we're too deadly" thing.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
not the kick itself most likely - the target of it. you can't sweep in muay thai - it's gotta be like a cut kick. you can't do a straight kick right to the knee either. But PLEASE, don't let this turn into a "we're too deadly" thing.

Well, that's why they have San Shou and MMA formats

[SevenStar]

exactly

[Mr Punch]

1) Why can't you sweep in Thai?

2) What's a cut kick and what is the relation to a sweep?

3) So are san shou and mma more 'hardcore' than Thai; ie more dangerous?

The rest of the these questions are about straight kicks to the knee;

4) Why can't you do it in Thai?

5) I've seen guys with a strong, predominant Thai background, and one Thai guy from Thailand fighting what they called 'Thai Rules Shooto', in Shooto fights, and I'm sure I've seen them. So are they trained in Thai?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
1) Why can't you sweep in Thai?

just can't. can't throw either. only punches, kicks, knees and elbows. There are takedowns that are allowed, like uprooting someone as they knee or kick. it will not count as a knockdown, but will give the fighter an advantage, so at the end of the fight, if their score is even, the guy with the advantage would win. I hear that some organizations will allow sweep like takedowns - those are scored the same way - not a knockdown, but an advantage.

2) What's a cut kick and what is the relation to a sweep?

you throw a roundhouse kick at me. I catch it (or not) and kick your base leg out from under you. It doesn't have to be done off of a kick though - you can raise your leg to leg block, and I kick under it and at your base leg.

3) So are san shou and mma more 'hardcore' than Thai; ie more dangerous?

nah.

The rest of the these questions are about straight kicks to the knee;

4) Why can't you do it in Thai?

safety, naturally. That said, there is no rule against it in the UFC, and how often do you see it used?

5) I've seen guys with a strong, predominant Thai background, and one Thai guy from Thailand fighting what they called 'Thai Rules Shooto', in Shooto fights, and I'm sure I've seen them. So are they trained in Thai?

shooto is a hybrid style. It's a mix of catch and muay thai. I've never heard of "thai rules shooto" though.

[lkfmdc]

I am pretty sure current UFC rules, as approved by Nevada and NJ athletic commissions make direct kicks to knees ILLEGAL

but early UFC's had tons of them, mostly done by Royce

international San Shou has them, and a bunch of athletes had to retire from knee damage due to them! We San Shou people are nuts :D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I am pretty sure current UFC rules, as approved by Nevada and NJ athletic commissions make direct kicks to knees ILLEGAL

Ross has, surprisingly, caught a dramatic case of the incorrect.

http://www.ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I've never heard of "thai rules shooto" though.
Nah, you won't have done: it was a one-off gimicky three fights in the middle of a regular card. It was last year, maybe April, in Velfarre nightclub, which turned out to be a quite a good venue for it. The only difference in rules we could spot was that you could use elbows at will. It was probably part of the contract stipulations with some big Thai guy who came over and made mincemeat of one of the shooto fighters.

They seem to mess about with shooto quite a lot to try and get it to catch up with K1, but they aren't gonna get the big sponsors unless they get the big fighters and they aren't gonna get the big fighters unless they get the big bucks, and they aren't gonna get the big bucks until they get the big sponsors... I guess from what my shooto-pro-fighter friend tells me.

[SevenStar]

didn't randleman fight in hook n shoot? he's a fairly big name. I dunno how often big name fighters compete in shooto events though.

[ShaolinTiger00]

ttt the discussion of "pivoting" was brought up on another thread.

[SifuAbel]

After 22 years my knees are not wrenched by it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

yeah SA, because as you told us, you're pivoting on the ball of your support foot.

You're not wrenching your knee.

but you also have no power.

Not exactly a good trade IMHO.

[Water Dragon]

hmmmm, you're still sure pivoting is bad?

How to? The Low Roundhouse Kick of Muay Thai

1-There are a # of varieties to this kick. I will discuss one of them in this post. We can get into variations on this theme afterwards.

2-Remember, with the Low Roundhouse kick of MT, the target area ranges from your opponents ankle up to his upper thigh.

3-I will try to break this up into a few steps, but remember, when the kick is actually executed, all the steps flow together into one motion.

**alright, enough with the disclaimers already**

When performing this kick, you must first be at the correct distance from your opponent. Unlike straight kicks and snap kicks the body momentum is generated by stepping sideways at an angle, rather than towards your opponent (or target). The correct distance for this kick is when your opponent is JUST BEYOND punching range. During practice, extend your lead hand to your opponent or target. You should be able to touch the opponent or target by simply leaning forward a little bit.

#1-STEP AND LEAN: Step sideways at a 45 degree angle to the intended target. As you step, your stepping foot should start to rotate. Make sure you are stepping on your tippy toes, not on a flat foot. As you step, you should lean your body in the direction that you step. This helps get your body momentum going, which is a key ingredient to this kick.

#2-ROTATE (and lean): Your entire body most rotate on the ball of your foot. Your leg should be straight (or very close to straight) during the entire kick. As you rotate and kick, your body should stay leaned away from the kicking leg. This acts as a counterbalance of sorts, and gets the weight of your upper body behind the kick.

#3-IMPACT: When the leg strikes the intended target, it should strike with the lower portion of the shinbone and/or the very upper part of the instep. The momentum of the kick should follow through the target. The kick does not stop at impact! The follow through is probably the most important facet of this kick. Think of your leg as a baseball bat. Swing it all the way through the target, attempting to break through everything in it's path.

The above instructions are very simplified, and without the benefit of photo's or demonstration, may not make complete sense. I have left out of the steps the instructions on how to hold your guard as you kick as that has been addressed in another post. I will finish this up with some bullet points.

*again, do not kick if you are standing too far away from the opponent. This forces you to step INTO the opponent when covering the distance, and gets your body's momentum traveling in the wrong direction

*when you lean away from the kick, lean far enough away so that your head is out of reach of your opponents punches. ESPECIALLY during low kicks, as you have to stand closer to your opponent while executing them.

*swing your leg in a "dead legged" style using your hip. Very similar to kicking a soccer ball or football. DO NOT "SNAP" THE LEG! Follow all the way through the intended target. If you were to miss, the kick would literally spin you around!

*When the kick impacts with the target, the heel of your support foot should be pointing at your target. Or, you can think of it as having your knee facing completely away from the target.

*Remember to keep the foot extended! Many people forget to do this b/c they are kicking with the shin and therefore forget to pay mind to what they do with their foot. Kicking with a "lazy ankle" leads to injuries.

*The impact with the intended target (when the kick is thrown correctly) creates a "rebound" effect. Learn to use this to get yourself back into your basic stance rather than "retracting" your leg.

*The most common target is the outside of your opponents lead leg on the thigh. However, do not forget that the rest of the leg, both inside and out is a legal target. (I expect to discuss the "Submarine" kick or "Cut" kick later in this discussion)
The support leg bends when kicking low. The lower your kick, the lower you bend your support leg. Remember to still stay on your tippy toes.

(*with the higher rdhouse kicks, some boxers straighten the support leg when kicking, some don't. I recommend trying both ways to see which feels more comfortable, gives you more power, and allows you to keep your balance)

************************************************** **********

I am highly anticipating your thread on the UG telling Khun Kao that he does his roundhouse incorrectly ;)

[omarthefish]

Great description except for the part where you said:


Make sure you are stepping on your tippy toes, not on a flat foot.

:D

[omarthefish]

btw,

Some of us just had this disussion here : http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29652&pagenumber=3

And I don't feel like re-typing my opinion on another thread.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Great description except for the part where you said:



:D

Oh! I didn't write that. One of the best MT coaches in the US wrote that.


here's the link

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/mt/kk1.html

[omarthefish]

Well I guess I'm in disagreement with one of the best MT coaches in the US.

But not with all the MT coaches. And not all the fighters either. And the ball of the foot thing just doesn't jibe with my Bagua either which . . . actually is where I learned to get most of the power from my kicks. Later I traine MT with a great coach from Thailand. Master Kahm had a successfull team in Hawaii and was teaching out of Redwoods gym in Venice when I left LA and came back to China last spring. He's trained quite a few champions himself. I really wish his website was up. I can't seem to find it.

[Water Dragon]

lol. I just meant that I didn't write the piece. I just wanted to give credit where credit is due.

Like anything else, I'm sure there is more than one way to throw a Thai roundhouse.

[omarthefish]

Actually, one of the most interesting things I learned training with him was how many "styles" of MT there were. Although they were more like the way there are different styles of boxing, peek-a-boo, Marciano type bulldogs, the "dancers" etc. He had a very in-and-out style and a more diagonal on guard than most guys. When I asked him about how certain other thais seemed to be doing it different from him he said basicall, oh yeah and then there's guys who like to . . . .and other guys who . .. . and the guys who train over at .. . .they fight more like this . . ..

Another cool thing was that I was training with him when that badass MT movie came out on video, Ong Bak. But there were no subtitles but he explained it all for me. OK, that last part is off topic but I thought it was cool. :cool:

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
yeah SA, because as you told us, you're pivoting on the ball of your support foot.

You're not wrenching your knee.

but you also have no power.

Not exactly a good trade IMHO.

Theres plenty of power. There is no trade off. The snapping kick is not a swinging kick. They are two different kicks, with two different deliveries and posture sets.

You ever stop to think that perhaps its not the kick thats weak but instead the person thats doing it? Or that people that train that kick tend to flick off instead of trying to drive through? Or, that they just don't have the right form?

My student and I are starting to play with a video camera. I'll try to get some samples online. Then you can say if my kick is weak or not.

[brothernumber9]

the kick that ralphie was describing stated contact was on the ball of the foot, this sounds strange unless it were a hook kick and not a round house. either that or it sounds like a roundhouse-toe ball kinda kick that I haven't really heard of people using commonly, although I can visualize how it would be used, it just seems that it would have to be a relatively accurately delivered kick to land.

It does however raise some interesting thoughts about a roundhouse type of kick that does'nt use the shin-instep area but the ball of the foot instead, particularly for thigh kicks, I imagine with good power it could give quite a charlie horse.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Then you can say if my kick is weak or not.

I'm not saying "you" are weak. I'm saying that the mechanics of that kick are weak compared to the "dead swing" roundhouse. and it could be you or anyone else doing it.

You lose power at joints, and the more joints you start incorporating in a punch or kick, the more power it will lose.

the dead legged roundhouse relies on an entire body acting to whip the leg thru the target. A large amount of torque involved. inc. your upper body. (equal and opposite reaction)

Your bent legged "flick" (not meaning the amount of power, but it's motion) kick will never generate this torque. No amount of "aim" or rotating on your support foot will ever come close.

Physics.

[SifuAbel]

Yes, physics.

Now there something I like, science.

Its a whipping action. A wave. The only way this kick works with power is if there is a carrying of the momentum through the kick.
If your momentum is stopped at points, then yes, the whip won't deliver. If its continuous, like a whip, it will snap at the end with force.

What you call a dead leg roundhouse, we call a straight leg sweep. Its a different kick.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Its a different kick.

:rolleyes:

No one even alluded to these two kicks being the same and it was never a point of argument. We were discussing power. and you were saying that the flick kick was of equal power.

[SifuAbel]

It can be.

Not only is it a different kick, it has a totally different approach , finish and effective target. The swing kick is low. It loses power the higher it goes.

The snapping kick has a punch like quality. It can reach higher, deliver force higher and come out quickly.

Another thing I don't like about the half turned kick is that it leaves you open with your front facing the opponent. Being on one foot, all twisted up, and open, doesn't appeal to me.

I've seen plenty of MT fights with a snapping round.

[MasterKiller]

I was watching K-1 reruns last night, and plenty of people seemed to eat jabs while attempting and even landing MT-style roundhouse kicks. Particularly, Rick Roufus (sp?) got KO'd after eating several of these jabs in a row.

Granted, I don't watch much of this stuff, but is that a common problem with the MT style kick?

When we do a roundhouse the way SifuAbel decribes, we are supposed to keep our hands up to block something like that. Is that any advantage at all over the MT way? Or are the MT guys supposed to block as well?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I've seen plenty of MT fights with a snapping round.

I think there is a huge difference between having your shin bent while delivering the kick vs, teh "chambering" snap kick motion before described. huge difference.




Not only is it a different kick, it has a totally different approach , finish and effective target. The swing kick is low. It loses power the higher it goes.

I'm not sure if we are still talking abotu the same kick now as I've never heard of the "swing kick" but with a good roundhouse there is no lss of power with higher target. in most cases it's flexability problems that prevent people from the proper execution, not the physics. (their lack of flexibility hurts the form of the mechanics of the kick and therefore can't be compounded w/ speed to equal power.)



It can reach higher, deliver force higher and come out quickly

no argument there. ex - TKD may be the epitome of the perfection of this style of kick. But they lack power. good for point sparring, bad for combat. If I'm taking the chance of hurting my balance to kick, I'm going to make sure that I hurt them badly. much more so than any punch. A roundkick to the inner thigh/knee a roundhouse to the thigh/knee (maybe even higher) A front kick to the gut, a rear leg front kick thru your gut..

See my logic? it's risk management. How do I maintain my best defense possible while attacking in an effective manner?

[SifuAbel]

You are only assuming it has no power. The other kicks have their place too.

You are stateing outright that it doesn't have power AT ALL.

I am stateing that you are incorrect and it does have power. Good amount too. It is by no means a weak kick.

"I'm saying that the mechanics of that kick are weak compared to the "dead swing" roundhouse."

[ShaolinTiger00]

MK

I'd hardly call Carter Williams 2 wicked right crosses a "jab", but they did KO Rufus.

Yes as you saw jab/cross is a suitable counter for a "round" kick provided you have two things.

1. an acceptance that you're going to take the kick.

2. You see that his guard is down. if not then you don't get the counter and you take the shot.

imho a more effective counter is like-minded to these straight punches, but more powerful and longer reaching. - the front kick (teep) it will disrupt (As Abel mentioned) their motion, keep you at a good range for motion, launcing offense etc and score some damage. (might knock them down if you plant it right on the hip for those foolish to stand "on tippy toes" - poor support.



I am stateing that you are incorrect and it does have power. Good amount too. It is by no means a weak kick.

listen cabeza de flan, I studied Shaolin Longfist and Jow Ga for 9 years, I think I know the mechnics and power of the snapping kicks. Lord knows I've practiced them thousands of time.

"weak" is a relative term in this situation, (I bet I could throw a very strong snap kick, but it's still weak compared to better kicks)but the point is that the power/effective technique of these kicks are very poor and it's much more likely to get you hurt (caught, off balanced, countered etc.) than harm your opponent.

[SifuAbel]

Yes Mr. Siete Leches.

"but the point is that the power/effective technique of these kicks are very poor "

No it isn't. :p

Perhaps you left too soon...............

[omarthefish]

lol@Abel.


You are stateing outright that it doesn't have power AT ALL.

I am stateing that you are incorrect and it does have power. Good amount too. It is by no means a weak kick.

"I'm saying that the mechanics of that kick are weak compared to the "dead swing" roundhouse."

In the same short post you mis-state ST's opinion and then provide a quote to prove he didn't say that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More relevantly though, it doesn't really mattere how powerfull the round is thrown that way. It could be MORE powerful the other way. WaterDragon has gracefully provided a professional opinion contradicting me but I still think it's worth backing up ST on this one especially as you seem be real insitant on making "weak compared to...." mean "Has no power at all."

Take the following example:

Your hook is weak compared to Mike Tyson.

This statement does not actually mean the same as:

Your hook is weak. get it? :D

As to eating hooks and my opinion in general, for whatever it's worth, I'm actually going to quote myself onthe other thread:


The other way is not "wrong" but it is not the MT way AFAIK. I think pivoting is more conservative. It sacrifices power for the ability to change your kick or to pull it. IMHO it's a weaker kick. I'd rather wait for my chance and go for it. Also, I'm guessing you're taught to keep both your hands up when you kick. That means your slower and have less power on the potential follow up hook.

For say, a right kick, throw your right hand backwards and down towards your ass as the right leg goes out. Bring up your left hand to protect your face.

Finnally, one BIG clue that Mr. Abel or Abel Sifu :confused: (that's kind of a funny pun actually)is either totally ignorant about what we are describing or just stubbon is this:

The swing kick is low. It loses power the higher it goes.


That's just plain not true.

[fa_jing]

well, Bill Wallace knocked fools out with the snapping style RH, and TKD guys break boards and slabs with it. So it is fairly powerful, though the Thai-style kick does have more power overall.

[jungle-mania]

The CMA roundhouse kick is good, if you swing and thrust the ball into the body, hurts like hell more than a MT roundhouse kick. A friend of mine had his shin cracked by the kick. The catch with the kick is that it requires alot of accuracy, focus and power to make it effective compared to a MT kick. The MT kick has a bigger surface area and cause just as equal amount of pain and has a higher chance of hitting, but it will never hurt as bad as a good CMA kick, because of the smaller contact area.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Bill Wallace knocked fools out with the snapping style RH,

I think the mechanics of that kick are very different than both of the kicks we are discussing, but imho it is an excellent example of how the upper body is used to create force. But I'm also practical enough to realize that his effective signature kick is very far from practical and certainly in a category of "sport-specific technique" in my mind.

Can it be used? sure. What are the odds? slim. I'm not a gambler.


Jungle mania - I'm going to disagree with just about everything you said, but don't let that keep you from the conversation..

[SifuAbel]

Omar(are you same omartheidiot from bullshido?),
Lets see.

"you'll never get the feeling of crushing thru the target from this grossly bent leg."

"I'll say that they are not safe and that they have little power."

"but you also have no power."

"Your bent legged "flick" (not meaning the amount of power, but it's motion) kick will never generate this torque."

"But they lack power."

What part of the above did you miss?

Go take your vendettas up your rectum.

[SifuAbel]

"I think there is a huge difference between having your shin bent "

Shins don't bend, at least they shouldn't........... :D

[SifuAbel]

"an acceptance that you're going to take the kick."

This is incorrect. If you just stand there and eat the kick, you're going to get slammed. And, you wouldn't be in punching range anyway.

Coming in while the kick is happening will have you meeting the knee not the shin, greatly reduceing its impact. Since the guy is basically face front during the kick it is harder for him to stay balanced through a counter. The supporting foot is sideways so any back action will rock you off the foot's side.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Omar(are you same omartheidiot from bullshido?),
Lets see.

"you'll never get the feeling of crushing thru the target from this grossly bent leg."

"I'll say that they are not safe and that they have little power."

"but you also have no power."

"Your bent legged "flick" (not meaning the amount of power, but it's motion) kick will never generate this torque."

"But they lack power."

What part of the above did you miss?

Go take your vendettas up your rectum.

At a loss for words Sifu? I see you have resorted to the old name calling and anal references style of debate.

Yes I post over a Bullshido quite a bit. I go by Omar, my name. In answer to your question: All of it. I don't know where any of those quotes are coming from. None of them are from my posts AFAIK and I am truly mystefied by your reference to a vendetta of some sorts. That sort of belief that there are people out there you have never met who are out to get you is usually a sign of possible schizophrenia. I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and assume you just got worked up over something and got me mixed up with someone else.

Put yer glasses back on and figure out who you are actually arguing with and then get back to me when you have something more intelligent to say than calling me jackazz. :cool:

[omarthefish]

p.s. I kind of like the handle 'Omartheidiot'. Looking at the root of the word 'idiot' I find it's something I identify with. I think Dosteyefskis book, "The Idiot" is one of my favorites of all time. I really do identify with the lead character.

[SifuAbel]

" I don't know where any of those quotes are coming from. "

That is REALLY obvious at this point.

It would help to actually READ the posts before you go making stupid comments.

And you know me. You posted about my clips over there. You didn't make the connect, I gather.

You were brain pickled then and you are brain pickled now.
:rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

I'm so glad you identify with idiots.

[omarthefish]

Holy ****! Your not the infamous KFDW??!?! are you? ROFL. No I didn't make the connection. If that's you, no wonder you so totally spazzed out. You practically busted a nut over there too at the implication that people should keep routed during sparring.

If that wasn't you, then I'm still in the dark about your alleged vendetta.

I actually did read the thread. All those quotes were from ST not me. You took them out of context to bend them you your evil will. If you really are KFDW then I'll see you later. Have fun ranting.:D

btw,

You've never read "The Idiot" have you? It doesn't sound like you got the reference.

[omarthefish]

I'm leaving the typo up ther because I just read my post and realized what a funny typo it was. Oh well.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
MK

I'd hardly call Carter Williams 2 wicked right crosses a "jab", but they did KO Rufus.

Yes as you saw jab/cross is a suitable counter for a "round" kick provided you have two things.

1. an acceptance that you're going to take the kick.

2. You see that his guard is down. if not then you don't get the counter and you take the shot.

imho a more effective counter is like-minded to these straight punches, but more powerful and longer reaching. - the front kick (teep) it will disrupt (As Abel mentioned) their motion, keep you at a good range for motion, launcing offense etc and score some damage. (might knock them down if you plant it right on the hip for those foolish to stand "on tippy toes" - poor support. You're right. They were hooks. I remembered that after reading your post. Stopped Rofous cold.

I guess what I was asking is, I see a lot of people drop their lead hand to their side when they execute a MT roundhouse. I'm assuming this is because you tourque the whole body on the kick to get more power. But if that is the case, it seems like your face is exposed quite a bit.

Like this:
http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/pross2.jpg

I'm not flaming LKFMDC or Sanda. It was just the first place I thought of to look for a pic. Is that the proper hand placement on a MT kick?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


Like this:
http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/pross2.jpg

I'm not flaming LKFMDC or Sanda. It was just the first place I thought of to look for a pic. Is that the proper hand placement on a MT kick?

Again, there's not a right or wrong way here. People throw the arm back like that as a counter balance. They say they get more power. They also open themselves up for a possible cross.

In my gym, we don't do that. We will lift our guard a few inches higher and slightly in the direction of the kick so that the hands stay up and the body all moves in the same direction.

Also, we will push (not punch) you in the face and then kick. It gets your body going backwards, helps me find my range, and hides the kick. This is the one that I prefer.

All methods are valid if you know WHY you are doin WHAT.

[Ralphie]

I still think the use of both types of round house kicks are situational. I actually think that not giving the cma rh consideration is the same kind of dogmatic thinking that exposed tma's when mma came around. I've used it against resisting and experienced mma and Thai practitioners. Is it a low % move? Not if it is set up properly. It's not like you would sit there and kick at someone over and over like they do in TKD tourneys. Thai RH can be low % moves if you use them in the wrong situation. Also, from my understanding, different MT schools emphasize different skills, as well as teach some things differently. So, the ways to deliver a MT RH can be different, even if it is just slight.

[SevenStar]

I don't think it's an issue of low %, just an issue of less power. I can see it being of use though.

[jungle-mania]

Earlier, I posted a reply, saying a friend of mine had his shin broken by a CMA kick. The guy who happen to break his shin was his cousin, a thai national who had just retired from professional thai boxing. He used the ball of the feet and not the shin. Apparently, he does not follow a typical MT roundhouse for most of his kicks, he uses the same way of swinging the leg to hit the target like a muay thai fighter, but hits the target with the ball of the feet.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon


Again, there's not a right or wrong way here. People throw the arm back like that as a counter balance. They say they get more power. They also open themselves up for a possible cross.

when you do the kick, you step, sink and lean in the direction of the step. This *should* keep you out fo range of the cross.

Also, we will push (not punch) you in the face and then kick. It gets your body going backwards, helps me find my range, and hides the kick. This is the one that I prefer.

yeah, you can definitely set the kick up with strikes.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ralphie
Also, from my understanding, different MT schools emphasize different skills, as well as teach some things differently. So, the ways to deliver a MT RH can be different, even if it is just slight.

yeah, MT is no different from any other art in that respect. You have coaches that favor knees, some that favor kicks, some elbows... some prefer traditional thai style punching, while others prefer western boxing style.

[omarthefish]

I was taught to throw the lead hand back. I can't open the link for comparison. When doing partnered drills though we were also taught specifically to punch to the kickers face when he kicked.

The face shouldn't be open because:

1. As Water Dragong pointed out, your leaning down and to the side as you step.

2. The lead hand may go back down but the rear hand comes up to protect your face.

Oh and it's not just for more power. It sets up that hand for a mean follow-up to the kick. Jab--->kick--->cross. Not the most creative combo in the world but it's not a classic for nothing. Hand goes back as the kick goes out. Leg goes back as the cross goes out.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar


yeah, MT is no different from any other art in that respect. You have coaches that favor knees, some that favor kicks, some elbows... some prefer traditional thai style punching, while others prefer western boxing style. What's the difference between trad. thai punching and Western boxing?

[SevenStar]

thai punches are of the straight variety only, from what I'm told - no hooks or uppercuts. Also, the thai punches angle downward - probably a result of the high guard some use.

This is what I've heard - our punches are western boxing.

[SifuAbel]

"You practically busted a nut over there too at the implication that people should keep routed during sparring. "

Rooted is one thing. Stop-action robo-fu is another.

Either way the statement is bullshizz. I had plenty of root.

[FatherDog]

Incidentally, I was taught to place the foot facing outwards, AND to pivot on the ball of the foot.

I pivot, because I feel like I have more power that way than when I don't.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"You practically busted a nut over there too at the implication that people should keep routed during sparring. "

Rooted is one thing. Stop-action robo-fu is another.

Yes. I get your point there. I'm coming from a bagua perspective and we are hardly known for "stop action robo-fu".



Either way the statement is bullshizz. I had plenty of root.

o.k. fine. You had plenty of root. You happy now? Don't get yer panties in a bunch. I didn't realize my approval was so important. :p

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
thai punches are of the straight variety only, from what I'm told - no hooks or uppercuts. Also, the thai punches angle downward - probably a result of the high guard some use. In your opinion, is the Western style superior to the traditional Thai way? It seems like hooks and uppercuts are pretty valuable tools. Is there any particular reason why the traditional fighters do not use them?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
In your opinion, is the Western style superior to the traditional Thai way? It seems like hooks and uppercuts are pretty valuable tools. Is there any particular reason why the traditional fighters do not use them?

Since I haven't experienced it, I really can't comment. Hooks and uppercuts are definitely valuable tools though. Maybe it's a power issue? the teep is a probing kick, but everything else is powerful - designed to KYTFO. the hook and uppercut aren't power shots. Dunno if that has anything to do with it, just a specualtion...

[omarthefish]

A hook isn't a power shot!?!

I think my hook maybe stronger than my cross. My teacher was a Thai who included both hooks and uppercuts though. I've never heard this before. The difference I saw, as we had kickboxers sharing the gym with us, was in the foot work and in the guard. I never learned a particularly high guard. Both fists were basically at face level, hammerfist facing out towards the kicks.

I thought the blocking style we learned was more effective against a gloveless opponent that what I saw and still see boxers use. We always kept a lead hand considerably ****her forward. Our stance was pretty close to 45 degrees rather than straight on. The punching was affected by this. The bigges influence on the punching style was the way we were taught to co-ordinate it with out stepping and the in-and-out style he favoured. I was surprised at how much power it felt like I was getting extra from hooking on the way out. Pulling my body back away as the hook is nearly landing seems to add some sort of weird centripital force or something.

The biggest difference in the hand work was definately the blocking thouh.

[ShaolinTiger00]

A hook isn't a power shot!?!

Sevenstar and I have had this conversation.

He's correct. Technically all "power" punches come from the rear hand. even though the hook causes more knockouts.

It is a very powerful shot certainly.

[SevenStar]

A good hook causes that head jolting action that makes the world spin - that's what causes the ko - it somehow scrambles the communication between your body and your brain.

[omarthefish]

Well fill me in guys because I haven't had the conversation before.

ST, it's a bit of a red herring for me to bring this up but....hooks can come from the rear hand too you know. I'm guessing your point was more along the lines of a real "power shot" needing to be drivin off the rear leg? Something about structure and all that. But I am going partly just by the effect I have on the bag. I seems like I can bend it just as good if not better with some of my hooks than my crosses. I suspect it has more than a little to do with the extent of my Bagua training. It's very very circular in it's power generation. I spend an awfull lot of my time on the bag even working out how to generate power for hooking, looping type punches from the bai bu-kou bu combination. It means I often land the punches from a very pigeon toed stance.

I also like to get in close enough to use the transition from a square horse to a bow stance for hooks. It sounds weird but I could show you easy enough. The stances just aren't that deep and I'm talking about those really tight hooks to the body that you can throw from a clinch. So it seems to me that you can still get power of the back leg added in and not rely purely on waist power.

[omarthefish]

p.s. the first type I picked up from Bagua but the second type I described is much more Baji type power generation.

[SevenStar]

The cross is a power shot - throw a crow, put some stank on it, and it does damage.

The hook is like the dim mak of boxing - it doesn't require tremendous power to be effective. you can throw alot of power into it off either the front or rear hands, but it doesn't require tremendous power to drop someone with.

[Water Dragon]

I'm right handed, but fight Southpaw. My right hook is definately my most powerful punch.

[SevenStar]

your hook may do more damage, but not soley because of it's power...

When you hit a bag, your hook lands with more impact than your cross?

[omarthefish]

I think so. It's hard to tell for sure though because I can't throw a cross on the really hard part of the bag. A cross definately has more follow through but I am skeptical of the power. I totally get your point, I'm just skeptical.

The way the bag is harder down low and softer higher up makes it hard to compare. I don't have access to a banana bag here.. The bag is pretty big but still. The bag folds more on a cross but it is so clearly because I am hitting the softer upper middle part and my most powerfull hook is NOT a shot to the head. It's a body shot. To the head, I totally agree with you. But if I was to compare a rib shot thrown from in real tight . . . I don't know. I get a pretty good thump that way. To the head, if forearms are allowed, there's a Baji shot that looks like a hook but is actually a strike with the arm that I can bend the bag with more than most guys round kicks. THAT's my most powerfull shot. But that's not technically a hook I guess.

******! I'm sore as **** and now I'm going to have to go back to the gym special today just to try and see if my hook really is more powerfull than my cross. (or not):mad:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by omarthefish
******! I'm sore as **** and now I'm going to have to go back to the gym special today just to try and see if my hook really is more powerfull than my cross. (or not):mad:

Have fun. :p :D