Turning Point in WC Development

[PaulH]

One of the problems I have is to remain calm when hands are all over me. My self-preservation instincts just kick in and I would slug it out with the perceived danger. I wonder how did you overcome this ego problem and the special circumstances that help to bring this about? I'm very interested in any insights that you like to share to our forum.

Thanks,
PH

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Paul,


Originally posted by PaulH
One of the problems I have is to remain calm when hands are all over me. My self-preservation instincts just kick in and I would slug it out with the perceived danger. I wonder how did you overcome this ego problem...

I'll let you know when I've figured it out. :)

I think you have to accept the fact that there are people who are better than you (more aggressive than you, bigger, faster, whatever) and accept the fact that they are probably going to hit you. Many many times. Just accept it and focus on what you have to work on. But I have a tough time doing this myself so who am I to talk...

Regards,
Alan

[Ernie]

a]
chi sau is not fighting or a sparring match
b] refer to ''a''

islolate what your working on if your partner can't help you go find another partner

if you go balls out when your under pressure then you don't belong there

your training prior didn't prepare you for that


c] you take things personal , nothing personal in training either your getting something from it or your wasteing your time


d] refere to ''b'':D

[Atleastimnotyou]

invest in loss

[PaulH]

I've been thinking about this problem for a while. I don't see what is happening clearly during the chi sau sessions and my timing is sporatic and wild- sometimes too slow or suddenly too fast with many blissful unawareness spots in between. Receive what comes is my biggest obsession right now! Ha! Ha! Thank you guys for the cool tips! My head is a little pacified now.

Regards,
PH

[blooming lotus]

if you're scared of the contact maybe take a class in a style where they'll throw you around a bit...like aikdo or bjj or something....just to get used to having pain inflicted by someone else.....

then take up some meditation and learn to detatch from it......if you can breath and stay calm and keep thinking while you're being thrown...you should be half way there

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
I've been thinking about this problem for a while. I don't see what is happening clearly during the chi sau sessions and my timing is sporatic and wild- sometimes too slow or suddenly too fast with many blissful unawareness spots in between. Receive what comes is my biggest obsession right now! Ha! Ha! Thank you guys for the cool tips! My head is a little pacified now.

Regards,
PH

There is no problem, just phenomenon to face.

Thoughts and different perspectives cannot replace lack of confident.

Rigid and dully hold on to a freeze view is not going to yield clarity.

Training in ideas and logic and science and meditation cannot replace zen.

[PaulH]

Hendrik,

We have two brains - the left and right sides. The left is the logical thinking side and the right is the non-logical and intuitive wisdom side. If the left brain is too dominant and when the situation is not fitting well with the logics, it might cause a mind breakdown especially under intense pressure. So I am working on allowing the intuitive brain or "core" mind to have most control by staying calm. Breathing calmly and being relaxed in mind is what I am tinkering here and now. =)

Blooming Lotus: Thanks, I did have some jarring contacts before. Never quite successfully counting the number of stars swirling in the drowsy calmness. Ha! Ha!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

We have two brains - the left and right sides. The left is the logical thinking side and the right is the non-logical and intuitive wisdom side. If the left brain is too dominant and when the situation is not fitting well with the logics, it might cause a mind breakdown especially under intense pressure. So I am working on allowing the intuitive brain or "core" mind to have most control by staying calm. Breathing calmly and being relaxed in mind is what I am tinkering here and now. =)





There is a different between working with the five fingers to make a punch and to keep thinking about how five fingers become a punch...

Ofcause everyone's free choice which path to take. :D

[PaulH]

Ha! Ha! I think I know what I think you say!

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Ha! Ha! I think I know what I think you say!

Cant used mind to work into beyond mind. One needs to find a way to stretch the mind but not work with the mind in logic.... loop.

Change your breathing patten then somethings will change with your body experience and the mind will be stretched...........that is the first step toward beyond mind.

But dont use your "programmed" mind either left or right..... to.... it doesnt work that way...... you are just writting another program trying to cover up the old program. That doesnt get rid of the old program. what you need is a reset and clear key to push. Thus, breath differently to change your physical, circulation, experience...........

[Phenix]

The third, and possibly greatest, addition by Oyama in his synthesis of kyokushin karate is the concept of Zen. In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. Can this concept not be put to great use in karate?


Today in Japan, Mas Oyama heads the International Karate Organization, Kyokushin, one of the largest karate federations in the world.
While fighting, you stand facing your opponent. When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself. This entire process takes only a fraction of a second, but what if the incoming attack is a fraction of a second faster?

If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception. Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen," a thus, he makes Zen an integral part of his system.

--------------------------------------------

What do you see Oyama was trying to say? Stretch to the ultimate?

[AndrewS]

Paul,

there's a dynamic balance structural drill I've shown Ernie which should help with that.

Basically, have someone push on you while you step in to close on them (stepping explosively), and try not to allow the push to interrupt your momentum. As you close more explosively and the pushes get harder you are basically taking stiff shots to the body on the way in, learning to handle them with your body. Once this doesn't bother you, and you can keep the right stuff loose, you should start to understand how to chill under fire.

The other option is to just get beaten on by someone really good until you figure out how to survive best (which basically means stop twitching or you'll bleed more).

Both work.

Andrew

[AndrewS]

Oh yeah,

learn to love impact- whichever end of it you're on.

Andrew

[Phenix]

Originally posted by AndrewS


The other option is to just get beaten on by someone really good until you figure out how to survive best (which basically means stop twitching or you'll bleed more).


Oh yeah,

learn to love impact- whichever end of it you're on.




Ernie,

Ask Paris to do that will be a great strecth of your horizon! :D:D

[kj]

Originally posted by PaulH
One of the problems I have is to remain calm when hands are all over me. My self-preservation instincts just kick in and I would slug it out with the perceived danger. I wonder how did you overcome this ego problem and the special circumstances that help to bring this about? I'm very interested in any insights that you like to share to our forum.

Thanks,
PH

As I returned home and to regular classes this week, we were discussing and pondering this very same and important dilemma. It is indeed a sort of ego problem. Thus we are taught a fundamental proverb, "Don't be greedy; don't be afraid."

Atleastiamnotyou said it right - "Invest in loss." George Leonard also discusses something of this paradox in his book "Mastery: The Keys to Success and Long-Term Fullfillment" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0452267560/qid=1081525810/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-2456226-8548808?v=glance&s=books&n=507846).

I am not sure if we can truly and fully overcome the dilemma, but I do believe we can move to a state of continuous refinement. We need to be motivated or driven enough for the persistence of practice, yet content to work through the process of doing so without succumbing to anxiety or rapacity.

Even in the most cooperative of training circumstances, our instincts will still kick in to look good, do as well or better than our partner and thus "compete", impress the onlookers, maintain our reputations, be the victor, etc. We want to be perceived and perceive ourselves as competent in technical skills or the act of fighting. We become concerned for pride of self, teacher, school, or lineage. Instinctively we put our emphasis on all these kinds of issues resulting from pride and ego, rather than maintain our focus on becoming competent and skillful learners.

Our innate fearfulness too - of a bloody nose, fat lip, or even something as simple as an unexpected tap, often triggers a protective response – a sudden tension, too much movement, abandonment of stillness, or gross movement rather than finesse, etc. - in turn shutting down a state of being where we can allow our experiment to play itself through uninhibited - a place where we can execute, observe, and learn with detached objectivity and full openness.

Our self-centered perspectives cannot allow the other guy/gal to get one in on us, else we might get hurt or look bad. Not to mention the competitive voice inside telling us that the point and purpose is to "win." To "win" is one goal. To become "excellent,” while not mutually exclusive to “winning,” is indeed a different goal. To win is here and now. To become excellent requires a far more patient journey, fueled by an odd mix of drive and selflessness.

I must constantly challenge myself to make this mental shift in my training. When I am feeling defeated, but most especially when I feel I am "winning" too much, because it is then that I find myself most stifled in real growth. I try to remind myself, "go back to the beginning - start over again." And again, and again. In hanging on stubbornly to what I know - or think I know - or to my seeming capabilities of the moment; when I am afraid of my training partner to hit me, or when I must insist to score on him/her in some way or prove some point, this is when I am most severely stuck and my work most limiting.

It helps greatly to have trust in cooperative yet challenging training partners. It also helps a great deal to work at appropriate, if varying degrees of intensity. Fighting or revving it up all the time will, IMHO, stifle some aspects of learning as well as development of some fundamental capabilities necessary for higher degrees of excellence.

IME, Wing Chun is about much, much more than defeating the other guy. How can I defeat the other guy when I cannot even yet control or get past my own self-centeredness and delusions? As Hendrik has proposed elsewhere, we need to learn to objectively observe our subjective selves, even in working out.

Pensive Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[PaulH]

Kathy,
Your pensive regards chill all my ambitious aims! Ha! Ha! Thanks!

AndrewS,
I once ask Gary what does it take to have a fighter's mind. His answer is a little psychopathic. He said "you have it when the guy hits you hard and it really turns you on. You love it when you got hurt!" As my "Sifu" can never be wrong, Hmm... I am resigned to agree with your incisive post. =)

Hendrik,

your sensible non-logical posts drive me mad!

Regards,

PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH


Hendrik,

your sensible non-logical posts drive me mad!



Welcome to the mad club!
I am being mad for past 25 years, but I realize that drive now :D

[PaulH]

Did it take you 25 years? Why so long?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Did it take you 25 years? Why so long?


Long? It is feel like just yesterday.

[PaulH]

Ha! Ha! You got theta wave allright!

[AndrewS]

Hendrick is mistaking me for Ernie.

It must be the apocalypse.

Paul,

psychopathic is different from what both Gary and I are talking about. A rugged joy in contact is a simple pleasure- a hot blooded rush different from the more mannered ritual masochisms. When you say 'psychopathic', you evoke another mindset, less playful than the one you'd want in training- a calm, emotionally neutral cruelty.

Andrew

[PaulH]

I sure hope so, Andrew. Ha! Ha! Thanks! Got to make some times to see you one of these days.

Regards,
PH

[Phenix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hendrick is mistaking me for Ernie.

It must be the apocalypse.



Nope, that was for Ernie.

[Gangsterfist]

One day a very small wave was traveling in the ocean and started talking to a sea gull flying above it. The wave complained about how small it was, and that all the bigger waves had it better. The sea gull laughed and said but you are not a wave. The wave replied then what am I? The sea gull told him, you are water.

We are only human and we make mistakes. I know when I touch hands with sifu, or someone else highly skilled they can usually make me tense up somewhere in my body at some point. This is because of my natural reaction of nervousness when trapped or put in a bad situation. Even in chi sao they can feel me out and make me tense up somewhere and use it against me. Its just something that takes time. Sifu says I have come a long way since when I started, but still need to improve. It is one of my deamons I need to get rid of. If I am in the winning position of chi sao or sparring I am way more relaxed and can usually get away with not getting tense.

One thing that really helps your game is slow sparring. I mean do it real slow. Match the speed of your opponet and keep it slow. When you get hit, roll it off or react how you would if you really got hit. This will teach you to read body reactions to getting hit, teach you to not be tense, teach you that getting hit is not the end (you can do last ditch effort stuff like roll it off by rotating your body), and developes technique. The key is keeping it real slow. Its hard becasue of that nervousness you might get when put in a bad situation. I understand what you mean, and I myself am also working to always remain calm and loose.

Good luck in your training,
GF

[canglong]

originally poste by paulH
I've been thinking about this problem for a while. I don't see what is happening clearly during the chi sau sessions and my timing is sporatic and wild- sometimes too slow or suddenly too fast with many blissful unawareness spots in between. Thinking takes away reaction time, when we learn that the proper response to pressure on the tan results in bong there is no longer the gap of thinking between responding just reaction. Understanding exact energies leads to exact response. In other words my friend feel the energy and respond stop thinking you know what to do and "just do it."

[PaulH]

Thank you GF and Canglong. I like your sound advices! Before I log off to a peaceful slumber, I would like to share with you all an interesting passage that I read. Trust you find it helpful as well.

"It was only when the conscious options to do, to not do, or to do something different existed up until the moment of action that Alexander overcame his instinctive misdirection. Many of us may find it difficult to break our habitual responses. When we examine our underlying motivation, we may find that we are being driven by the need to get it right, driven by our end-gaining tendency. Our commands to ourselves, however well-meaning, are immediately translated into the need to get it right. As long as we are fixed on getting things right, and getting it right now, we make it impossible for our organism, ourselves, to respond in a new way. We render ourselves inflexible. Our return to our habitual way of performing reflects our mental inflexibility. We assume our bodies are the problem, but this is not the case. It is the mind that is in a muddle. We can only have choice when there are real alternatives to choose between. Once we have identified clear options in our mind, then the possibility of a new and different response becomes possible. We need to pay attention to the critical moment and practice working with it by becoming more conscious.

When we examine Alexander's method, we may realize that the three options that he put before himself opened up an extremely wide and open landscape for a new response and in so doing had a deep insight into what it means to have free will."

Have a meaningful Easter and no, it's not chocolate and bunny! =)

Regards,
PH

[anerlich]

Most people know what the end result should be (i.e. not thinking, staying calm, not getting tense) etc. but you need a structured plan for getting there.

The methodology requires a cooperative partner, and a suitable academy atmosphere.

Start doing you chi sao, sparring, whatever, at a speed and power slow enough that you can both participate and reating flow, softness, calm, etc. Then drop that down about 30%.

Go that way for a minute, than up the speed/power by 10%. Another minute, same again, and again.

Stop when one of you starts going into mid-brain, tightens up, gets tunnel vision, starts flailing, concentrates on their own feelings and performance rather than the drill itself, etc. Go back to the lowest level of intensity and start the ramp again.

Over a period of weeks or months you can gradually up your threshold where you start to lose it, until you are going pretty **** hard but still retaining the desired qualities in your practice. At some stage you may need to add protective equipment to avoid superficial injuries, but keep the method the same.

You can do the same to gradually get used to impact, via correct shock absorption (exhale and roll with the punch). Start with a partner hitting you lightly on the body, gradually increase the impact until you can't take it without tensing up, etc. start the ramp again.

You need partners who are prepared to let you explore your limits and try things without always punishing you mercilessly for your mistakes.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Andrew:

Good post...progressive step-by-step training regarding giving and receiving blows and impact should not to be overlooked.

[yuanfen]

Sound advice Andrew re slowing down before going again
and avoiding just flailing around. Importance of knowing what one is doing without having to stop and overintellectualize things.

[PaulH]

"There is nothing to fear but fear itself." While I agree with Andrew that one needs to plan well on how to get or to train progressive for the desired results, the problem requires also of a fundamental change in the thinking process. It seems to go back to how an individual will act in the face of terror or loss of control and balance. It could be at any moment where you least expect.

In the filipino culture of death matches, I understand the knife fighters often prepare themselves by undergoing long duration of prayers or "oracion". From such inner calm, they then will face their challenger. I don't believe that one can train to get more courage. It is more of a spiritual dimension.

Regards,
PH