The Business of Martial Arts

[mantis108]

Well, I am sadden to hear that HuaLin LaoShr closed his school. I am sorry to hear that my friend. It's always a shame that TCMA school that tries to bring to the public the valuable teachings of MA fell into the hands of enconomics. This brings to some thoughts that I have when I was flipping the channels and saw the latest Taebo gimmicks. It all of a suddent hits me that. In this date and age, there may be a way to survive in teaching MA. We could say that there might just be a "formula".

1. develope a network of support through popularity.

This is the power seat of organized sports. Media and film industry attention are also most valuable game pieces.

2. put together a marketing team.

The truth is nothing beats teamwork in business.

3. mechandizing

In MA, the first product is of course yourself. You are selling you to the general public. Billy Blank sells Billy Blanks or rather what he does "best" first and foremost. There is nothing wrong in that providing that it's backed by honesty and integrity.

4. more mechadizing

Ideas, visions, and inspirations are the driving forces of sustainable business. Taebo is no longer only a cardio fitness class but also squeeze ball and suppliment. It is now a product that takes on a life of its own. That is what success is about these days.

5. Seminar

Billy Blank holds Taebo seminar in Germany (huge crowd there too) and other places. His seminars are quit an awesome sight or at least it seems in the infomercials. It is a smart way to advertize. The image of him bringing Taebo to you sells very well. I think that's how the grass root level support is there for him. Seminar re-enforces the popularity. We all know that these days popularity rules.

As much as Taebo isn't my cup of tea, I have to admit that Billy Blanks is a very smart and successful MA businessman. There is a good lesson to be had for all of us.

Sorry about the not so mantis related topic rant but I just felt that losing a mantis school, especially someone who is passion about the art, to economics is so sad.

I hope that Hua Lin Lao Shr will regroup and go at it again whenever feasible. Don't be discouraged, my friend.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[woliveri]

Good points Mantis 108. I mulled over these exact things over 15 years ago when it was my desire to one day have a school.

Another route to go which would allow considerably more flexibilty would be to teach either privately or in a park or both until a student base could be built to support a full fledged school. I'm not sure that would be possible with WL although I think Shelly Huang down in South Florida is doing it if I remember correctly. That would be something HLLS would have to take up with MC or SC.

This is the case more often than not here in Southern California. I have found very few TCMA schools in buildings (at least good ones). 95% have been in the park and mostly unadvertised.

I like this option better at least in the beginning as it adds flexibilty to your schedule (don't have to worry about opening the doors some days) and you don't have the overhead of a school to worry about.

Perhaps this would be an option for HLLS in the future.

Good luck HLLS

[tanglang69]

Hello,

If some one out there really wants to open and operate a successfull kung fu school, then to organizations I recommend is NAPMA (National Association of Professional Martial Artists) and MAIA (Martial Arts Industry Association). And remember, you do not need to sacrifice your the intensity of your art to be successful. You just need to restruction to let your students grow into the intensity.

If you need mmore information, email me.

Sincerely,

tanglang69

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Here's a brief rundown of some of the difficulties I had that brought me to where I am today. If anyone is planning a school someday it's just as valuable to hear about failures as well as successes.

BTW, I lost my job so it seemed an opportune time to open a school especially before my savings ran out. I didn't really have enough money but I crossed my fingers and went for it anyway.

Due to another Wah Lum school in close proximity to my hometown I had to open in an unfamiliar area. I researched other schools in the area but months after opening I found a lot more going on in the area than I first thought. Almost all TKD and all kids after school programs. The mentality in that area is that little kids do MA, not teenagers or adults. I didn't have, or plan to have, an after school program.

Not researching local business plans and going for the most sq. ft. for my dollar put me in a nice unit but in an area of decline. The anchor store was a K-Mart that announced it's closing less than a month after I signed the lease.

Everything cost more than I thought so by the time I opened a lot of my money was gone. I also ran into difficulities dealing with other businesses a far as getting quotes for work and getting work done.

Just having a good product or a big name behind you is not as important as you might think. Hardly anyone I talked to knew what Kung Fu was let alone Wah Lum, Master Chan or the Temple only 30 to 45 minutes away. As one of my students put it, nobody around there even drives up to Orlando.

After losing a lot of money and realizing that 'break even' was nowhere in sight I tried to find a gym, community center etc. to continue classes. Believe it or not everywhere I went already had a MA class. I tried every gym, church, YMCA, community center etc. I could find.

The one hour drive each way turned out to be very expensive. Not worth it unless you live on the outskirts and teach in the city. I was putting about 100 miles a day on an old car that now sits on the side of my house until I can get the money to fix it.

I've been a computer technician for the last 15 years and the jobs here are scarce to non-existant. I have friends that were forced to leave town for work. The only other thing I know is MA so my plan was to get out of the tech industry and just teach. I had no backup plan if the school failed. Don't expect to make a living just teaching. That seems to work for some but not the majority. Most teachers have a day job.

Hope this helps someone. Feel free to ask me anything.

[mantiskilla]

HLL
at least you had the b@lls to try. good effort. i think that you are correct about not being able to make a living teaching. maybe a select few. besides, i think it would put a lot of pressure on you, and take away most of the fun. woliveri has the plan with the park. i would never try opening a school. it takes away too many options, and i would think that at some point it may compromise some of your beliefs.
________
Suzuki tl1000s (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_TL1000S)

[KickingMantis]

What many martial arts instructors fail to realize, especially kung fu instructors, is that martial arts is a business, like any other business and you have to treat it as such.

I am just starting to learn this as well.

If you plan to stay open and run a school and teach people traditional martial arts because you love kung fu and want to share your experience with your students, you can and enjoy the lifestyle you want. Whatever business plan you use it should include these three things.

1. A good curriculum

This doesnt mean teaching people 25 sets in two-three years. Most of them cant do it anyways.

2. Must be able to teach properly to the masses

This doesnt mean 2-3 hour classes with a 1 1/2 of it in a horse stance. This type of training may have worked in the shaolin temple. but it doesnt work today.

3. And have to understand Business and Marketing

If no one knows you exist it doesnt matter who your teacher is or how good you profess you are. And to be honest with you. Most students. dont really care who your teacher is or how many trophies you have won. Most dont know the difference between kung fu, tkd or etc and could care less. In the big scheme of things, for the beginner student, its about how you make them feel.

It has little to do with where you are, the size of your school and who your teacher or grandteachers are. It depends on how hard you want to work to change the success of your school each day, week, month and year. You may have to work a little harder than others that are in prime locations that get a lot more traffic, but it means you may have to come up with creative ideas to tell people about your business.

I think a lot of times kung fu guys think because they are a student of so and so or they teach so and so style that when they open, people are just gonna come running in. And this is not the case. Like any other business, martial arts schools are a business and if you dont understand or have a mentor to teach,
it will not work.

all three are just as important, martial arts, teaching and the business and marketing.

[mantis108]

Wow, I am truely impressed with the genuine sharing of remarkable experiences and helpful informations. I would like to take this oppotunity to thank you for such wonderful dialogue. I think this discussion is one of the best yet.

Woliveri,

How goes it? I understand the unique situation that the Wah Lum organization has. I appreciate the information that you provide. I believe it would be helpful to those who wants to start up in the areas that you mentioned. Thank you. :)

Greetings tanglang69,

Welcome aboard. Thank you for offering the information and the help. It is so nice to know there are resources for starting up and running a MA school in the States. Hope to here more insights and have your knowledge shared in the future.

Hi Hua Lin Laoshi,

My friend, you are truely a courageous soul. Your analysis of what would have been a rather painful experience is most remarkable. You are a warrior. I think the fight is still in you. When the moment comes, you shall rise up again. By sharing your lesson, everyone benefits immensely. If I may say so, Wah Lum should be very proud to have a representive such as yourself. sincere admiration of a fellow brave.

Mantiskilla,

I agreed with you.

Kickmantis,

Most excellent insights. I can totally relate to what you posted. Lots of good food for thoughts there. I think I will further my thoughts on your post later. Hope you don't mind. Thank you very much for the generous sharing.

Warm regards to all,

Mantis108

[Xiao Tang Lang]

I really appreciate everyone sharing so openly!! I am in the process of starting a school right now and I can definitely relate to the problems with contractors!
Hua Lin, I am truly sorry to hear about your school closing! I just lost my job in November and I am probably going through some of what you may have gone through. One of the things I enjoy most about Martial Arts are the people you meet and the friendships that are developed. I already had the pleasure of meeting Sifu Steve Cottrell and some of his students and I look forward to meeting more practitioners in the future!

[bamboo_ leaf]

Just noticed this, I too had a school for a while.
I was teaching NPM at the time.

I think you really need to sit down and write out what and why you want to teach and develop a curriculum that you can live with. One that is flexible enough to address the students perceptions while still maintaining your integrity and your arts.


Every one wants to learn it the same as what they have been told or see in the movies, few really want what they ask for. most don’t really relize the time and effort needed to make things work.

Opening a school can be very expensive; one way to mitigate this might be time-sharing with established schools in the area or buying some time from a dance studio.

i only play and teach taiji now, its not commercal

i wish you well in this endevor

[18elders]

when i taught, i taught out of a TKD school, i had classes when they didn't or after their classes, it wasn't a big TKD school so there was times available. Yu shan did the same, this way you don't have the overhead of the school yourself and just split the tuition 70/30. They made a little bit they wouldn't have had, it was just empty space for them. It was better than me taking 100% of the tuition and then having the expenses of my own school. Plus you get exposure of the people coming in for the tkd.

I think part of the problem with the wah lum organization is when you open a school you have to pay them $3000 up front. Right away your putting yourself in the hole. They don't have it set up for the owner of the school to make money but for the wah lum organization to make the money.
I disagree with the franchise fee but i know some think it is okay. If they really want the organization to grow then they don't need to put the owner in the hole on day one. If one of their schools is in trouble they should try and help out. Pay for some advertisement, do some demo's in the area etc.

Starting any business is hard, most don't make any profit the first 2 or 3 years.
Make sure you have a business plan, there is a nice software program called business pro. Pretty good, step by step explanation of writing a plan. Once you write your plan and find out all your costs you must try to stay on the plan. How many students will you try to get each month, what can you pay on advertisements etc. Get out there and work it hard, pass out flyers door to door, just don't sit in the school and wait for someone to come knocking( it's not the field of dreams).

The biggest thing to have is enough money to survive on for a few years. find out what your bills are and what you will need to get by without a paycheck for a year or two. If you can survive on a spouse's incoming that is great.

Next thing is alway borrow money from someplace else, not yourself. I know that sounds kind of tough but ask any successful business person and they will tell you that for sure.

Another thing is find someone who is doing great with their school, talk to them and see what they are doing and try to improve it. The japanese are great for that, find something that works and make it better.
try to hold seminars, invite other teachers and host the seminar, post it here on KFM.

I think a kung fu school is a difficult business and wish anyone luck in trying it. Some people make a great living at it.

[Joe Mantis]

Teaching Martial Arts professionally is a Business and we have to address it as such.

A couple of thoughts:

We are not offering a commodity" ie; kung fu, Bjj, TKD etc, rather we are offering a service.
If we look at it from a service industry standpoint we may be more successful.

"what can I do put my service in demand?"

Most people don't want to learn Northern Praying Mantis. Most don't know what the difference between kung fu and TKD. We have to 1st educate the clients and also provide what they are looking for. ie: fitness, self-defense, a place to belong.

A well laid out curriculum is important. As much as I don't like the sash/level (WLers know what I mean) students like to "feel and have outward recognition of progress. Sashes or levels seem to be important in retaining students.

Only 20% of your students will train hard and love the art like you do. BUT it's the other 80% that will put the bread on the table. Provide a quality service to the 80% and you are on your way to running a successful school.

just some thoughts,

Joe Mantis

[spiralstair]

On a previous thread on 6/12/2002 Hua Lin wrote: "What I'm facing now is the need to make money with the school however the last thing I want is the after-school-babysitting-just-to-pay-the-bills program."

On 4/9/2004 Hua Lin wrote: "I researched other schools in the area but months after opening I found a lot more going on in the area than I first thought. Almost all TKD and all kids after school programs. The mentality in that area is that little kids do MA, not teenagers or adults. I didn't have, or plan to have, an after school program."

On 6/12/2002 Spiralstair wrote:
"Be careful not to fall into the elite martial arts snobbery thing... it sounds like something like this ' I only want to teach those who are ready to receive the TRUE Transmission, no unwilling, unable or half-a$$ed need apply'.

The hard facts of the Western lifestyle for the martial arts teacher are: Rent, Utilities, Taxes, and students who have many choices and not much ability to discern the 'real' from the 'hyped'.

"Babysitting" is for babysitters. A physical training progran for children contained within the framework of a Kung Fu school is another thing altogether. No, the kindergarten age kids can not do a sit-up. But there is a interesting progression of movement that builds the strength required. Strength in the abdomen. Sounds like Kung Fu.

I teach 50 kids a week (kindergarten-4th Grade) in 3, 60 minute classes. It costs the parents $10 per week/per child. My school gets $500 per week for 3 hours work that I prepare professionaly to give a valuable class in the movement basics that I have learned are essential through my study in CMA. 150 hours a year for a strong financial foundation for my school.

I don't teach 'Respect means do Your Homework' and all that other stuff , that is the parents job. I'm a physical trainer, and even though most kids can't learn Kung Fu form well till they're in 3rd-4th grade, there are other physical things that they must learn for the right foundation.

Study. There are dozens of good sources for information about correct pyhsical training for children. Find them and adapt them to your Martial Art that comes from China, a culture where the teacher 'slaps 'em into shape'.

After all, what's more of a challenge, passing your knowledge on to someone who loves Kung Fu as much as you, or finding the ways to help those who will forget to even say " thank you"?

[Tainan Mantis]

Spiralstair,
Good stuff.
So what do you do with the pre4th grade kids?

[spiralstair]

Hi Tainan,
I just got back from practicing 'seeking center' on the other thread. Couldn't find one...

The 1st thing that I think is important with young kids is the form in which the class runs. To keep the kids energy up I run a class that moves pretty much at this rate: 50%group activity/50%individual activity; 5 minutes of quick and intense movement(usually in a group); followed by 5 minutes focussed activity(ususally 1 child at a time while the group sits). This method begins to teach kids to manage their energy while respecting their basic need to nudge.

By the age of ten young children should have a 'reference library' of movement ability that includes running, skipping, jumping, hopping, crawling, throwing, catching, climbing, kicking, blocking, punching, falling, seperating(left and right), connecting(limbs through the middle), absorbing(contact to the body).
All these movements should be able to be performed double and single leg, left and right, up and down, foward and back, where it is possible.

If a child develops these things they then have the foundation to become 'sport specific' as they move into adolescence.

This is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to children's training. I think that the CMA is an ideal setting to learn these things because of the 'setting' of the Kung Fu school allows the children to focus better than the outside world.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

As usual everyone has well thought out ideas about what to teach, how to structure classes, all very generalized. I offered a childrens class. It may very well have been the best childrens kung fu class ever. I'll never know. Problem is I never got any kids. What did I find out? Seems like every kid in the area already goes somewhere. At least as far as I could tell talking to parents. So how do you get them to switch over from an established school to your new place when you are an unknown? How do you compete with schools that have been marketing and running a successfull after school program for years? How do you beat them at their own game?

Pretty much all that's been said I've heard before. Offer a service? I tried. I downplayed the tradition and tried to sell the health benefits, a service. Tai Chi for health for older folks, Kung Fu for self-defense and weight loss.

Well laid out curriculum? Wah Lum has one that's been developed by Master Chan over his long career of teaching. The curriculum doesn't bring in students.

spiralstair
You're jumping to conclusions with your quotes. I don't have a problem with teaching kids. The thing is if I had a kids class it would have been all kung fu, not homework, not games, not 'let's find something to keep them occupied so I can get paid'. Around here it's babysitting. I've visited local Karate schools and saw the kids eating snacks, watching TV. I'm sure there was an actual class but they certainly didn't train the whole time they were there. Also, daycare is a highly regulated business and lately these schools have had to get licensed like a daycare to run these programs. I have no interest in being in that business. So how about sharing some details on how you got those 50 kids a week. How did you get the first 10? What's the minimum age you take? Big question is how much help do you have?

Most of the comments deal with retaining students. That's a great help but you have to get up and running first.

There was a cheerleading school right next door. I offered a discount to family members of anyone there. I got zero takers. Younger or older brothers? Already going to TKD. Parents? Too old (according to them) for kung fu. Tai Chi? Various excuses why they can't (hurt my wrist was one).

I offered family rates which I found out other schools in the area did not offer. I drove around every day putting out flyers. I tried doing a show (some of you know how that went) and a seminar. Advertised in the paper, at East Coast Martial Arts Supply, personally went to every MA school in the area, wrote an article that was published in a local health magazine along with an ad.

My personal experience? You can run an after school MA Daycare or a MA Country Club where you don't break a sweat and make money or teach real martial arts and work a day job. Personally I would rather close a martial arts school rather than turn it into something else. If I'm an elite snob for that then oh well.

Sorry for ranting but I'm a bit stressed today. Tax time and I'm forced to revisit how much money I lost.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

spiralstair
Do you pick the kids up yourself or hire a service to do that for you? How long do you have the kids and how much help do you have with the class? Are snacks and drinks included? If they don't train the whole time they're there what do they do?

Not picking on you, just curious.

[KickingMantis]

If teaching martial arts is really what you want to do. I wouldnt give up man. It seems as if you are very frustrated right now. But, some of the most successful people have fallen at least once or twice before they were successful.

When you are able, I suggest you do some GOOD research on how to start and operate a successful school.

There are schools that don't run a daycare, teach children and adults traditional martial arts in a organized and structured way
and still over them life skills; self confidence, self esteem and etc because without these you are merely a coach/trainer and not a sifu. You can still learn to enjoy the life style you want, run a successsful school and feel good about what you teach at your
school.

People who teach children and adults martial arts without giving them life skills, are merely trainers and coaches. Any idiot can teach a kid to kick and punch, run around the school and punch a bag.

Childrens and Adults alike, need help, and they look to martial arts and other programs to help them.

[Tainan Mantis]

spiralstair,
Thanks for the info.

I feel that going to lengths to operate a MA business is counter to what I want to do and counter to why I joined in the first place.

I like to spar or fight with other MArtis.
That has little to do with running a MA business.

For my own, non lucrative MA career, I just train people so that they can qualify to be my training partner.

So when I move to the states I think i'll just have a little Chinese barley and tea shop with a student or two, if I am lucky.

[spiralstair]

Tainan,
I agree with your points. Those are the same reasons I love CMA.
As I got older though I got tired of the day job/night training routine and decided a full time school would give me the options pf practice time, teaching experience, and sparring opportunities that I needed to deepen my practice.

I found a good space in an R+D type industrial park with high ceilings and cheap rent(much easier on the wallet than a storefront operation). I advertised in the Yellow pages and with flyers and cheap mailings(I stayed away from newspapers, local phone books, gimmick stuff like calenders, back of movie tickets, all too expensive).
I had a LOW OVERHEAD, so no overwhelming pressure to make it 'out of the gate'. My student base built slowly by word of mouth and in the beginning I offered everything I could at all hours( T'ai chi, Kung Fu, Chi Kung, for adults, children, and pets) until I had established the 'coordinates' of the desires of the population in my area. I've found that almost all my students come from an area of approx 10 miles around my school, so what kind of people are inside that ring is a crucial thing to establish, for one has to adapt what one wants to do to what the people who will pay you want to pay for.(Sparring class at the Senior Center doesn't enroll, and doesn't pay)

In time in my area I found that morning Kung Fu class immediately after school drop off was popular with stay at home moms. Most were looking for something deeper than Tae Bo and Kung Fu fit the bill. Most weren't 'serious' students, some were, one went on to become a teacher in my Kung Fu style.

Tai chi at noon worked in my area, the people in the Industrial park would come in for a 45 minute session 3 times per week.
I don't have showers so it worked for them to return to work without too much sweat. In time these people would come to T'ai Chi I offered twice weekly at night after my late Kung Fu classes.

Adult Kung Fu happens 4 days a week in the evenings.

Childrens class worked best when I divided it by grade level.
1st grade (noone younger/too frustrating)
2nd grade-3rd grade (similar needs/abilities)
4th-6th grade (ability to learn kung fu in a traditional manner)
anyone over 13 yrs old is in with the adults.
Each kids class happens 1/2 hour after school closes, parents drive/pickup, I provide no 'entertainment', no snack, it 's all work for them for 1 hour and that's how I market it. Otherwise what's the point, I don't want to be the Kung Fu Clown at some kid's 'theme' birthday party.

On an occasional weekend I rent out my space to an organization and/or teacher whose group needs a large open space and won't trash mine. In time I have 'regulars' who provide a dependable supplemental income.

That's it. The rest of the time belongs to me. To practice, train with my Kung Fu brothers, travel to train with my teachers. push hands/fight, read the Forum.

It's a great way to live, if you love the CMA and don't want to drive a Jag.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

spiralstair
You have a lot of good information that could really help new school owners. There is a Sifu area of the WL website. Under Instructor Info there is a section called Beginning School Guidelines. You will notice that there is nothing there. I had planned to write up a few things for new school owners to help them get started but got sidetracked trying to find rent money. Maybe you could share a little so others can avoid a trial and error startup. There's no reason for a new Sifu to be on his/her own when there is so much experience out there in the WL family.

And I mean details too if you can. This goes out to the rest of the WL Sifu's too. Marketing plans and materials, building plans for an alter and weapons rack, recommendations for insurance carriers, structuring classes. There shouldn't be any school failures in an organization this large and this old.

Agree or disagree I think it should be more like a franchise. A turn key operation with everything you need to open a WL school. Marketing and promotional materials, sample contracts if you choose to offer them, building plans for the alter, instructions for obtaining licenses, list of things you need to do or purchase, etc. I bet if all the schools got together and went with one insurance company they could get a good discount. I realize every location is different but why re-invent the wheel every time? I'm all for flexability and autonomy in a school but a little help in the beginning would ensure a successful startup.

Tainan Mantis
"I feel that going to lengths to operate a MA business is counter to what I want to do and counter to why I joined in the first place."
My sentiments exactly although my reasons for joining are a little different. I'm not looking to get rich, I just feel it's a good opportunity to be do what I want and I feel obligated to share what I've learned over the years. Something I had planned on doing someday back when I was training in Kenpo.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Good points, all.. We also rent out space during off hours.. a Ninjitsu class, yoga class and we are negotiating with a 'Belly dancing group" ( i think they will get a good rate:D ).. another reason to get into this is to stay focused.. it's not as easy to be lazy teaching as it is learning.. i find that it constantly challenges me to be sure i've got it right, i don't want to pass on incorrect information..

As for "getting rich".. if you are good at what you do, respect peoples individuality and abilities (whatever they may be).. and can manage money.. your reputation will at least pay the bills.. your students are your best marketing tool.. if they are good, it is assumed that you can help others get good too.. and the personal testimony of your students goes a long way..

Be well.. and, best wishes to all..

[mantis108]

Wow this thread has really become much more than I expected.

I agreed with Hua Lin Lao Shi that there aren't many help available. I am kind of wonder if it would be a good idea to make this thread sticky so that all those who are interested in having a go at running a MA school could have a starter resource.

What do you think BeiTanglang?

Mantis108

[mantis108]

I think what you are suggesting fits into a fringe club category which is a viable option in my mind. This is actually something that I have in mind should I move to a big city.

A fring club using Kung Fu classes as the anchor is not a bad idea at all. But then the need of people skill is a must. One would have to be somewhat actively involved with the community. That translats into - more work that's not directly Kung Fu related. :(

Anyway, it's one of the creative solutions for have a succcessful club IMHO. Thanks for sharing that.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS Spiralstair, thank you for all the helpful information. Really appricate that.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I think you are right (even if i don't like the term "fringe club").. but, MA is our mainstay.. it is simply a waste of space to sit empty for 5-6 hours a day that could benefit another aspect of alternative health (and help with rent).. I am fortunate to be associated with some very skilled people, and very good students.. The concept of "fringe Club", for me, is more like a community resource center.. in the evenings and weekends we offer Taiji, JKD, Mo Hahn, Kali-Escrima, Muay Thai, and Cardio Kick-Boxing from the MA perspective.. and, as long as there is empty space in the days, we believe that "movement" classes with a health focus is appropriate.. Now, on weekend evenings we may begin hosting a drumming circle/class with Trance-Dance performances.. an indepth QiGong monthly workshop.. and a Women's self-defense workshop..... Geeze, no wonder my hair's turning white, that's gonna be a lot of paperwork.. but, it feels good to involved in the community..

Thanks for the input.. be well...

[Tainan Mantis]

spiarlstair,
Sounds like goo advice.
I almost feel like it can help me get off the couch.

Hau Lin,
Will this advice affect your future plans?
Do you feel it is something new that you didn't try?
I suspect that your location is messing you up.

[woliveri]

What would be the problem of going to a public place like a park or beach and doing an exibition (two or more person sets) which doesn't appear to be an exibition (empty hand, no weapons)? I think that would be great advertisement for local areas. It would certainly be something I would consider if I were in the position of trying to get known. I see the Capoiera group at our local beach all the time even though they are not advertising for a school. Just doing their thing.

I even thought of going to the local flea market, rent a stall or two and pass the hat as in Chinese older times (at least in the movies). You get practice, you get exposure, and if you're good you get money. Put on shows, etc.

The only downside would be any local @ssholes that would want to challenge you or some dumb krap like that.

[18elders]

I agree with Hua lin, it should be like a franchise, i mean you have to pay the temple $3000 to open a school then they should help you in it.
Bob had good points, if you have the space and are not using it do something with it.
Also you could find out the demographics of the area, LOCATION is a key point. Just finding a place with low rent may not be the best solution if your not in a good area.

I think those who are in wah lum should throw some ideas at the temple to help out the new schools, it is a part of their organization and they should want to see it do well.

For my business(not a MA school), we do inserts in the local newspaper. A regular advertisement is very expensive, but i can put in a regular 8 1/2 X 11, 2 color insert for $360. It is for 10,000 inserts and you can pick the zip codes you want it in. It only goes to subscribers, not in the boxes on the corners of streets.
It is alot less expensive than a advetisement in the actual paper.
We always include a calander for the month on the back side so people may want to keep it on their wall for the month and don't throw it away. They say people usually have to see something 6 or 7 times before they decide on it.

Like i said before, get a business plan and follow it, don't go into it blind

[tanglang69]

Greetings folks,

There is something everybody needs to remember or even learn for that matter. If you operate a school or are thinking of operating a school as a means of generating income for survival, you need to understand that the majority of people that come in for information or are interested in your classes do not care who you are, where you come from, who your teachers are, or what high level of kung fu you have attained. What they are interested in (the majority) is "What can you do for me or for my child?"

Look, I have been involved in formal martial arts training for the last 20 years. For the last 18 years, I have been involved in school operations, everything from school management to classroom management.

If you want to attract students and do not have the income or finances to do a marketing strategy that includes newspaper adds and things of that nature. Then make a flyer that explains why it is beneficial for that person to come and join your school.

Again, this goes out to the sifus that want to teach commercially. Remember I have been there and done that when it comes to school operations.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Sincerely,
tanglang69.

[tanglang69]

Hello,

Man it's too early in the morning. I forgot to put in my last post what to do with the flyer. Once you make the flyer, do a block walk. Go around to the neighborhoods in and around your school and post it in the front doors of homes. If possible do not put it in the mailboxes. Leave them at their front door.

Don't have the time to do it by yourself. Then use your current students. Have them help you on a Saturday and invite them for pizza.

There are so many things you can do if you are willing to be open-minded.

Have a good day everyone.

tanglang69

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Another interesting concept is "appearance".. ALL of the marketing people i have spoken with AND my own inclinations suggest that there should be a shrine-like appearance to the school.. an atmosphere that says "something special" happens here.. a comfortable but focused arrangement of art, weapons, certificates, and furnishings.. too much "hype" speaks for itself, "too much", gimicks quickly lose their appeal... another observation made by a knowledgable interior designer was to have an observable first-aid station, parents sub-consciously like the attention to safety (and you will probably need it sooner or later).. As much printed material as is pertinent to your art, such as hand-outs for students, gives a feeling of permanance and is a great reference.. and leave a "school-copy" laying out for prospective students to browse through..

Keep the school tidy and clean.. disorganization, clutter and poor sanitation will discourage potential students.. pricing should published and available for prospective students.. remember that many first-time students are intimidated by the whole MA thing, we should make their initial visit as pleasant as possible (we can beat 'em later :D ).. Clean and private changing rooms are a great benefit.. Instill a 5 minute period at the end of each class where the students clean and straighten-up, make this mandatory.. it is good discipline and helps with your off class time for maintenance.. it also instills pride in the students for their school..

Although i started in the park and liked it for the most part, it is kind of impractical, thanks to summertime storms here in Florida and the plague of mosquitos.. ultimately, it is about the lessons, and too many cancelled classes due to weather or too much discomfort fighting bugs/using repellants, will discourage students or add liability (bug transmitted diseases).. I am a big fan of outdoor classes in the park as a marketing tool.. set up a sign or banner, have handouts and be available to talk with the curious or interested people.. have a social/workshop/picnic, it shows unity and more of a wholesome attitude.. get involved as a school in park clean-ups, etc.. contribute to the community that supports you.. and it's good advertising..

Just some random ideas, some practical/some not.. but worth consideration..

Be well...

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

There were multiple reasons why I went with leasing a suite instead of starting in a park. In retrospect I can see it was the wrong approach although it seems to be working for the new Kentucky school. Since I couldn't find a low/no cost place when I had to close I doubt I would have found one before I signed the lease so I probably would have ended up in a suite anyhow. My current feelings now are that I don't want to travel 40 miles to teach a few students in a park. Especially since the rainy season is coming up and my only transportation is a motorcycle.

Blaming the location is an easy way out but it really was a bad area. Also, I ran out of money faster than expected so allocating funds for marketing was dropped in favor of paying the rent. I thought staying open longer would be more productive than a couple of months of advertising and closing if the ads didn't work. I believe the longer you can stay open the better your chances. Guess I was wrong.

A few other things:

When I tried to put out flyers at a boxing event downtown at the cenvention center I was told it was considered a public park area and I would have to have a permit. Attempts to provide a half time show for future events didn't work out but definitely worth a try if you can.

I got in trouble papering cars at another K-Mart. A store owner by my school told me about a guy who got fined $4000 for putting flyers out at Olde Town (amusement spot).

Find out when the new phone books come out and open up around then. I opened beginning of March and the phone book didn't come out until Nevember.

[darksands]

Another thing is remember, you are teaching kung fu, knowledge. Dont short change your style. Sifu's should be charging hundreds of dollars an hours for their knowledge. I heard people charging 50 bucks for kung fu. Ask yourself, is it reallly worth that much?

[woliveri]

DarkSands, is that 50.00 for a month of unlimited classes, 50.00 for a private per hour / half hour, 50.00 for a month of one class a week???

HuaLin, Kissimmee is full of Jack@sses. I know as I used to live there for many years. I once got harrassed for being on a closed down school property by the police when I was practicing Qi Gong. Yet every weekend they had high or middle school football. Yep, they finger printed me and everything. Oh yeah, try to explain to those idiots what Qi Gong is and why I'm just standing there under a tree (Zhang Zhong). Anyway, it was embarrasing for sure. Good thing I didn't have any Kung Fu weapons or I'd probably been hauled off to jail. Oh, and it was across the street from my duplex which I owned. Oh well.

I also tried to get space to teach Qi Gong at the Convension Center and before that, parks and recreation but nope. Nobody knows anything about Chinese arts and most don't care (in that area).

I don't know. I think I would rather work at a job at this point and practice on my own. I once thought I'd like a school but that's lesser of a desire now.

[yu shan]

Woliveri

Excuse my redundancy here, I`ve mentioned this before. I rent space from a well known dance school here in an artsy area. Our location is well centered in the city, very close to major universities, and the crowd GongFu seems to attract. I teach part- time in the evenings, and have a day job that pays the bills and provides the family with Ins. I have a history of teaching part-time, I do not like stress! My school overhead is nearly nothing, no bills on that end, cept what I pay the school and Insurance. I will not go into what I pay in travel to see my Shifu and what I pay him... this is where it gets expensive. But what do you do? Learning is perpetual and I must go to the source. My philosophy about tuition is make it affordable. I`ve heard, if you have cadillac gongfu, don`t charge vw prices. I can respect a Shifu for what he/she has put into learning, cause I`m still paying out the wazoo! But let`s face it. Look at what we generally draw. I`d rather keep tuition affordable and have a large group of folks training, rather than a handful paying high dollar, JMO.

I really appreciate all the quality information being shared here.

[woliveri]

Well, I've had instruction from both types. Those who charge and those who didn't charge even though they paid through the wazoo in more ways than one. I guess it comes down to what you're happy with. I wouldn't mind teaching for nothing for a small group of dedicated students. Definately not a group of fluffer-nutters for sure.

Qi Gong would be a different story. I've paid for some nice sets and wouldn't let them go for free (although I have..... what am I saying? :confused: ) However, I gave that qi gong to try to help someone but they didn't continue to practice and probably lost the information I've given them....

I don't know, some people don't know how difficult it is sometimes to find such stuff and they let it go as they don't recognize the value.

Oh well,

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I was having lunch at a pizza shop where I kept pamphlets on the counter. Three cops came in and while ordering one was reading a pamphlet. He showed it to the others and read a little out loud. I finished my lunch while they sat down at the table next to me (only 2 tables in the whole place). As I was leaving I asked him if he was interested in Kung Fu. He said "If I can't spell it i don't do it". On the way out the door I heard one say "Hey that's the guy in the picture". Sharp eye there Columbo. I was facing them the whole time and wearing my WL shirt. So now I wonder if it's the Wah Lum he can't spell or Kung Fu.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


"If I can't spell it i don't do it"

Ahhh.. our tax dollars hard at work..

Be well..

[Mantidland]

If anybody is going to try teaching at a gym, foget about the YMCA. I just got back from talking to the Recreation Director at the one down the street from me. She said that they would keep the money that people paid for the classes ($30-$60 per student) and that she would pay me a whole $15 dollars per hour, no matter how many students I have. How shady is that?! She also said that I would just be teaching Tai Chi, she didn't want to deal with the Kung Fu right now. I was amazed that she could make me the offer with a straight face.

[flem]

mantidland,

you could charge them nothing and build a student base to move on with, set up private instruction outside, build your name in the community etc.

hua lin,

the park is the way to go. i taught for four years in one after closing my school, the weather seperates the men from the boys.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It is noteworthy that most instructors have invested a goodly sum of money, time and effort in their Martial Education.. it is not unlike going to college.. at some point, if the student has the inclination and teaching skills, it is reasonable that they should be compensated for passing on that knowledge to students making the same journey that they have made.. Psychologists suggest that the amount paid for a service, particularly education, adds a perception of quality and viability that transfers to the students' attentiveness and dedication.. most people believe that you "get what you pay for", which causes the inexperienced to question inexpensive park teachers.. unfortunately, MA is full of scam artists, adding to the caution that a student must use in choosing an instructor.. although some of the better instructors end up in the park, the perception may be detrimental to realizing a fair reward for their investment.. If the teacher has a low value assigned to their art, the student will likely have low expectations.. This isn't true where the teacher's reputation is of high report, but usually it is only those that have prior experience and know of the teacher that are willing to pay for the park experience.. new students will likely search for a comfortable training environment with amenities.. and we shouldn't prejudge a new student's potential for making a decision based on appearance and facilities, they simply have no reference point..

Be well...

[Oso]

TCB,

your comments are something I'm dealing with now as I look to open my own school after 3 years of teaching in a gym and a rec center.

At the gym my student's paid $40 a month and when I relocated to the rec center I went up to $50 because I was able to offer more class hours per week.

Now as I look at being able to offer virtually unlimited class hours I am finally looking to see what everyone else in town is charging and am finding that the range is $74.99 ~ $90.00 per month.

So, now I'm debating where to place myself in that range. The guy charging $90 is going to be within a half mile or so of my location. So, I'm debating whether to match him or come in under him.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have just debated my fees with my partners.. i offer 18 hours of standard class time a month, they offer 12.. i ask for fees that are $10.00 lower per month than theirs (65 vs. 75 on a 6 month committment).. My theory is that i am more competitive at these rates with local guys, and.. if i do a good job, word-of-mouth is a great marketing tool, the more people happy with the school, the more they will tell and the more new students will sign-up.. pricing must be fair, get a fair price for your investment but don't price yourself out of the market.. i had a Sifu tell me he was getting $90 per month for his students (all 4 of them).. i'll take 15-20 happy students over 4-5 "rich kids"..

Look at your overhead and space available, figure how many students you can reasonably expect to comfortably accomodate, then divide the number of students into your overhead, add 15% for growth capital and unexpected expenses, then add 15% for actual profit.. if you come in less than your competitor, good.. if you come in way less, add some profit for future expansion and enhancements.. if you come higher than your competition i know some guys that can help (just kidding)..

The general range of fees is simply what the market will bear, but.. i know of several Sifu's that have built impressive and very functional facilities that can get more than $125.00 a month.. but, the students are paying for the amenities (ie: nice showers, kitchen, meditation areas, on site TCM/Massage, competition ring, video analysis of performances, etc.. )..

Good luck with it, it can be as rewarding as it is frustrating.. but, in the end, what you sell is yourself, your knowledge and the ability to pass it on.. do that well and the rest will naturally follow..

Be well..

[Mediocrity]

Dear Hua,

Part of the reason why us WL brothers and sisters in Kentucky aren't having trouble in the building is because a good number of us are putting in other time to help out outside of class. I'm not sure if this wasn't the case for you, but we go out in public a lot for Sifu to do advertising. But we are still caught in the throes of the advertising world. It's a harsh reality that in America - everything revolves around money so we're always trying to get new advertising ideas.

What we do to get new students is pretty similar to the likes of TCB. Word of mouth is big. On warmer days some of my brothers head to the parks in the area passing out kid program flyers for the summer. We are also trying to get some way of setting up a demo team to perform in a public place to get more exposure. For the most part these days - it's about the kids programs. Parents want to see their kids going to a safe environment while "learning more responsibility" and learning to fight off bullys. People with health problems come in all the time wanting to do Tai Chi as well.

An idea I'm borrowing from someone else is that you could also go around to local businesses and offer them a deal - They let you put your brochures there and for every person that signs up that brings a brochure from that business, the business gets a kickback of say 15... 20 bucks. Put Tai Chi ones up in Beauty Salons, Kung Fu at health supplement stores, etc. It's a team effort to stay alive in the business world these days.

Best Wishes,
Aaron

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

And.. market Taiji to the parents of the kids class.. they seem to like the involvment..

Be well..

[flem]

i'm no longer in it for the money but i see a future in home-schooled kids. as schools move ****her towards academics equaling state money, more and more parents are turning to home-school. in most areas there is a home school associations that put together activities to broaden the kids horizons, physically, socially, etc. these associations are made up of the parents themselves.
and i've said this before and i'll say it once again. i've had the opportunity to view kf from the outside after i lost interest in the school thing. the one thing that really loses interest to most non-martial artists before they ever give it a chance is the image overall. on a general scope and one that few if any here can really change are things like magazine covers with faces that look, well, like a case of explosive diarhea, and of course the movie stuff that makes people think that the skills of a qualified/skilled teacher are...mediocre at best-
the image of the school itself though is something i feel needs refinement. for those "inside" the arts, shaolin boots, shaved heads, etc. look cool. to the outsider they appear foolish. even a bunch of black outfits, i think, quickly puts out a negative image to someone stepping into a school for the first time
there was a time in wl when there were many different shirts and colors being worn, but it was changed for a reason i am unsure of, i assume it was to create a cohesiveness. but i think the variety was more appealing to a newb

[Oso]

insightful post, flem.


even a bunch of black outfits, i think, quickly puts out a negative image to someone stepping into a school for the first time

amen, black on black is overdone.

when creating my website, my web designer and overall graphic designer worked on 'branding' "Asheville Martial Arts". When I got t-shirts made (our only official uniform) I found a t-shirt color that was close to the website colors. The one sign I've had made is also based on the web colors. any paperwork I do: hand outs, newletters is done on a similar color. The point is to get my color scheme into the stream of consciousness so that w/o even reading "Asheville Martial Arts" someone (at least IN Asheville) will know who they are looking at.


magazine covers with faces that look, well, like a case of explosive diarhea,

one of the sport guys made a comment a year or more ago that has stuck with me. He pointed out that TMA guy's pictures will often show the posed 'fierceness' of the practitioner but if you looked at pics of sport/mma guys, they are all smiling.

sometimes I think that TMA/Kung Fu guys have lost an original point to martial arts and that is the day to day competitiveness that is present in sport martial arts where you regularly pit your skills against someone you don't know. You can spar as hard as you want against your school brothers and sisters and it doesn't come close to crossing hands with someone you don't know in a win or lose situation, even if it's just a sport match.

I've seen a lot of TMA/kung fu guys that need to get over their 'mad skilz' and fight.

oops, sorry, ranting....

[woliveri]

faces that look, well, like a case of explosive diarhea


ROTFLMAO!!!


I literally just last night through away a stack of KF mags that had just that look!!!


:D :D :D :D :D :D

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Funny thing about putting brochures in area stores and businesses. I thought the same thing and hit all the 'health' related places first. Turns out that the ones I put in health food store were still there week after week but I couldn't keep enough in the pizza parlors.

Guess it really was a bad area because many parents (of kids next door in cheerleading, I didn't have any kids) I talked to were 'too old' for Kung Fu. When I suggested Tai Chi they usually had some injury that prevented them from joining.

Personally I think I intimidated them by my ability. They couldn't relate to it at all so they didn't care to try. Grown ups don't jump around like that. It was culture shock.

[flem]

yes hua lin you are right. i personally know of many people some of which have no idea that i have any involvment or knowledge won't give it a try simply because they "know" they can't do this or that. but the culture shock goes even further i believe, there's no definitive saying, but remember keanu's reaction to becoming a surfer in the movie "point break"? "thats for little rubber people...". the same goes for ma. there's a feeling everyone has that they want excel, not just participate, whether it is kf, or line dancing. go out and demo 3-section, a bunch of hurricanes in a circle, etc. and you'll get a few, like us, but you don't interest the mainstream. tae bo, girls and guys in familiar training attire, some muscular and ripped, some not, then you have the perception that what you see is attainable. kf needs the subway guy, whatever his name is, an image of results by the avg. joe, not the dedicated few with extraordinary ability, and especially not wierdo's with incense burns on their heads

[KickingMantis]

This is why curriculum is so important. To demonstrate to students of all ages that the martial arts has something to offer to them regardless of age. It has to be structured so a 5 year old and a 30 could do it.

The other thing is. this is why new students should be seen by appointment only 1-1 with a martial arts instructor that has been certified to teach. You should structure something like a basic lesson for all new students to do before they join your school.

[Mediocrity]

Hua,

That is very odd indeed. I guess you have to plan for the attitudes of the people. We get people who think just the stuff we do is cool and they want to learn how. They're willing to at least put forth the effort and try to do it, for the most part. But I can see how it can be hard to open up a school where you did.

Best Wishes,
Aaron

[MiamiMantis]

I have been training with Shelly Huang since 1988 without any lapse of time, so I can talk from experience about schools. We have been training at Tropical Park in Miami well over 10 years now, and we charge nothing. Why you may ask??.

Well by not charging anything we bypass alot of rules and requirements needed by Miami-Dade County. The funny thing about it is you would think by being free there would be alot of people. Well actually it's the opposite. When you don't have to pay and you have nothing to lose, you won't come as often. Now if you are paying 60.00 a month, you bet your a** you will show up to class because you are making a monetary investment.

I teach most of the classes and we have a hard core group of about 3-4. Thats it. We have classes on Mon-Wed-Sat-Sun and alot of times only 3 people show up to my sat class. Who are they?? usually me, myself, and I.

How are Japanese and Korean systems so successful?. Easy they run it as a business. If you don't make monthly payments as required you are in violation of your contract and are subject to a collection agency just like LA Fitness or Golds Gym. You have to learn there is a fine line between "friend" and "student". If you let that line blur, you will go down the drain. You have to collect your monthly payments and take no excuses.

Hua Lin Laoshi, I sympathize for you, but as a Wah Lum brother, I feel you opened you school in haste and did not do enough research for your target area. The old "if you build it they will come"proverb does not work for martial art schools.

Khalio and myself have been trying to open a school for a
loooooong time and have yet to do it. Master Chan keeps asking everytime we go up, "when you open school?". Our standard reply is we are still researching for a good location.

I am a County Officer and also have a real estate license so I can access the MLS for commercial units/properties. It is very expensive to open anything bigger than a closet plus the County code requirements are incredible. You have to have enough saved up to run fully covered 6 months without a student.

Bottom line...Tae Kwon Do has a foot hold that is hard to break in all areas. Everywhere I travel I check the phone books like everybody else on the forum and 80% of all listing are
tae kwon do.

SCHOOLS OPEN WITH MONEY, NOT DREAMS OR WISHES!!

Sorry for the length of the post.

Hua Lin Laoshi- Myself, Shelly and Khalio will be at the Temple June 26/27 for training. I hope to see you then.:) :D :cool: :p

[Joe Mantis]

Just some thoughts:

About putting flyers in health food/ related stores. Same experience here: flyers are still there or got thrown away.

In my experience you have to determine who your market will be:
Kids, young adults, old adults, forms people, sparring people...
Once you find who you want (types of people that is) in your school then you can better pick where you want to advertise and how. Of course Word of Mouth is the best but aside from that.

Kids these days are so busy along with everyone else. I don't advertise at the Boy/girl scouts because those kids are already involved in something.
Flem, I agree, homeschool is going to be a huge market coming up.

About advertising: Most people sifu's/black belts are only Novices/Whitebelt when it comes to marketing. We got to educate ourselves continuously in this area to be successful.
Case in point: The diarreaha faced pictures.
No mom is going to sign her kid up so he or she can look either like they got the runs or are constipated.

Service is the key: What Can I do for You Mr./Mrs. Client?
Hey, if you can't offer something, refer them somewhere else. They'll remember that you went out of your way to help them find what they were looking for.

Sorry about the rant.

[18elders]

I agree with JM, just because someone has a high level of MA skill does not make them a successfull business person. You are running a business, you have to be a MArtist and a salesperson. If someone calls you or comes into your school they have just shown you some kind of interest, it is your job to sell your school or program to them. ASK QUESTIONS!
Are you interested in the health aspect or the martial aspect of kung fu?
-Health:: great we do a variety of stetching and breathing excercises as well as various body strengthening movements. You can do our tai chi program that has slower movements or if you would prefer the kung fu with faster and stronger movements?

Martial Aspect:: great we teach mantis which is known for its fighting techniques, we teach the forms as well as the applications with a variety of 2 person drills and forms along with weapons.
Would you be interested in fighting in competitions or in doing forms competition?

You ask the questions and slowly guide them into joining by providing them with what they are interested in.
Show them a kung fu uniform, let them try the top on or hold a weapon, you have to spark something in them to join.
When you have their interest get them to commit to joining then while they are feeling good about your school. If you let them walk away they will think about it and probably eventually think themselves out of it.
Why are womens magazines at the check out at the grocery store?
They start to read it waiting to cash out, get interested in an article and then buy it.

Studies show it can take someone 6 or more times of seeing something before they decide on it. Keep your flyers everyplace you can, it is in your face advertisements, always on your mind.
You are running a business, then teach kung fu, your not teaching kung fu and trying to run a business.
Do an ad with another local business, co-op the advertisement fees, how many Blimpie stores are in gas stations now? Pizza hut in Wal-mart, co-op the cost, it helps both parties out.
Go get books written by successfull salepeople, it is an art, just like your kung fu, some will be great and some will not.
I know everyone wants a hard core group of people, it is out of the numbers that you will eventually have that group.

PRICING:IMHO, KEEP IT AFFORDABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would you rather have 4 students paying $110 a month or 15 paying $75?
If you have 4 and 2 can't make it for a month or so your dead, if you have 15 and 2 can't make it for a month your okay. It is just like a retirement plan, don't keep all your money in one basket, diversify your portfolio by having it in many places. There is power and strength in numbers. Your students will train harder when they feed off the energy of 20 people in the room as compared to showing up to class and there is 3 people there.
If someone comes to watch class they will feel the energy of 20 but not 3. That is why tae kwon do is so successfull, not because it is a better art. They keep it affordable and they have lots of students.
If it comes down to joining a school for $100 or more a month or putting braces on your kid or putting them in soccer etc, little johny will win.
Are there more toyota and hondas on the road or jaguars? I would rather have $50 bucks in my hand than nothing.
It is better to have a small percentage of many then a big percentage of a few.
Go take business classes, learn to be a good salesperson, don't expect to get your students just because your kung fu is good.

Ok, sorry for rambling on, just some thoughts to hopefully help some of you guys out

[flem]

"Hey, if you can't offer something, refer them somewhere else. They'll remember that you went out of your way to help them find what they were looking for."

when i had a traditional school i once had a referal from a local karate guy, the people wanted to learn weaponry which he did not offer. that was something i never forgot and i recommend anyone interested in his style of the arts to him