Up On Your Own Two Feet

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay - now it's Dhira's turn (KenWingJitsu)...to be the inspiration for a thread. He recently posted the following on another thread:

"Now it is true that not enough emphasis has been put on anti-grappling" but it's beginning to happen (in the UFC). A la Chuck Lidell etc. but the only way to do it is to be comfortable with the grappling in the first place, that way you can defend what's coming and keep it standing if you want...or stand back up if you're taken down. It takes grappling skills to be able to do that."

Wow...Dhira said a mouthful here.

Anybody want to comment?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay - here's the point:

I believe along with Dhira that if you want to stay up on your feet against grapplers who attempt to take you down...you have to have more than striking/kicking/footwork skills - you also have to be comfortable with grappling itself.

Then you can better understand what they're trying to do and how to counter it.

[PaulH]

My french coaches would agree with Dhira. One needs actual experience of trying to stand against hostile takedown attempts from real grapplers. Once you know their game it is not that difficult to stand tall. They did it successfully against their BJJ instructors and classmates many times.

Regards,
PH

[Ultimatewingchun]

PaulH:

Your French coaches? Are you talking about savate?

[PaulH]

No. Before Gary, I studied WC with Jean Marc Noblot and Chan Keo who came to America to study Machado BJJ at torrance, California. They left America to study BJJ in Brazil now, I think?Here is their French website:

http://www.chez.com/baseweb/

Regards,
PH

[Ernie]

victor
now you open a different door , do i really have to learn to grapple or just work my escapes off guys that can grapple

if i have no desire to get a submission

i like to work all my pain tools on the ground head butt knee elbow and biteing

as wll as a good choke

to isolate these tools nd keep them effective

do i really need to work locks and holds

or just spend time getting sensitive and controlling position ?

[KenWingJitsu]

do i really have to learn to grapple or just work my escapes off guys that can grapple if i have no desire to get a submission

Silly wabbit :D yes you do. When you started to box/kickbox...did you learn to box/kickbox before you defeated those you sparrred with, or did you only try to use "pure" wing chun? Feel me?


do i really need to work locks and holds

Yes you do. 'Specially YOU. Why? Because you've never really felt the "sweetness" of "Slapping on" a quick submission. When you do, you'll see it's a sweet as dropping somone with an unexpected jab. And your attributes are hard wired for good grappling. You just dont

HKE is sweet on the ground, but guess what...HKE is often the best way to MAKE him give you a submission out of fear and pain (did I make you smile?). A sub can often end it quicker on the ground than repeated HKE bashings.

We're on for Sunday. Check e-mail.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie asks: "Do I really have to learn to grapple or just work my escapes off guys that can grapple?"

Let's put it this way - IT starts with learning how to work escapes...beginning with escaping the takedown...and moves on from there.

What is "IT"? (The desire to learn grappling).

Ernie:

"I like to work all my pain tools on the ground: head butt, knee, elbow, and biting...as well as a good choke. To isolate those tools and keep them effective - do I really need to work locks and holds or just spend time getting sensitive and controlling position"?

Well...Spending time getting sensitive and controlling position is a good thing in the beginning...but congratulations! Your desire to learn grappling is growing - since you like putting on a good choke. (Pssst! A choke is a lock! A choke is a hold!)

Now, Ernie...Here's a quote from someone who just posted the following on another thread:

"Since I have no real ground skills all I can do is cheat. But I want to get very good at cheating. This requires me to develop some ground skills"...

Sounds Like he answered his own question...doesn't it - grasshopper?

[KenWingJitsu]

Victor has just Kimura'd......er 'scuse me....Double wristlocked the correct!!!;)

[Ernie]

god
biteing is just so much easier :D

dhira

i learned my destructions first and picked up the kick boxing skills as a byproduct

it's a back door approach

I may never be able to out kick a kicker but I can focus on killing the kick


keeping it street minded and not fair ring minded

so I would rather learn how to cheat and circumvent the ground game and if I pick up some skills along the way hell I wont turn them down



I find even know it's hard to put a hold on me , unless the guy is a very good ground person

and if I cheat

I takes people out of there game a bit

but you guys got more time on the books then me , so I will keep my mind open

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
"Do I really have to learn to grapple or just work my escapes off guys that can grapple?"
Yes, you can do this and be quite effective. However, being able to finish people on the ground will make you twice as dangerous.

[Ernie]

Knifefighter

victor was quoteing me ,

i.m the cheater looking for short cuts :D

[Knifefighter]

Got it! There definitely are shortcuts to be had.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Keep those destructions in your pocket - never give them up (unless you find out later that some of them might be leaving you open) - then change (or drop) those that do.

But those that always seem to work - man...they're like jewels - treasure those and pull them out whenever necessary or the opportunity arises.

Next...start working on anti-takedown defenses.

Against low single shoots...double-leg shoots...guys flying in to take the middle of your body, etc.

Start with learning how to sprawl - I'm sure Dhira can help you with that.

That's a biggie.

I'm positive you'll take to all of this like a fish to water! The sensitivity is already there...from wing chun...from being Ernie.

[Ernie]

victor
I'm positive you'll take to all of this like a fish to water! The sensitivity is already there...from wing chun...from being Ernie.


i worked of a collage wrestler on absorbing the shoot for a few months
big fast and low shoot

learned to sprawl from him

but it's been about 2 years so i up for some practice

funny thing is the only guy that really took me down was a marine man he shocked the hell out of me never told me his training back ground though

but it was back in my wing chun stance days :D

[canglong]

Parlati Sifu says the best response to a punch is to punch.

Ernie says the best response to a punch is tan bong fuk.

score one for Ernie,











this round :D

[Ernie]

hey no score keeping just shareing:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Tony:

Tan, bong, fuk are all defensive...right? Isn't the fasted possible way to do simultaneous attack and defense to simply punch into the line he's punching on...at a slightly different angle...And if need be - you can still use your other hand with this - in some fashion or another...Or perhaps (if your footwork is good enough) - just respond with a punch on a totally different line than the one he's using.

So why not make the centerpiece of your response to his punch a strike? Don't you surrender less territory when doing that? Don't you start to take more of his territory quicker when you do that?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by canglong
Parlati Sifu says the best response to a punch is to punch.

Ernie says the best response to a punch is tan bong fuk.

score one for Ernie,

this round :D

I'm not taking sides, but I have to go with Victor. "Fist parries fist" (kuen sho kuen??) is a perfect example of simultaneous attack and defense (lin sil di dar). I'm not saying that you should counter all punches with a punch. Tan, fook, bong may have its place & time; but if I have the option, I'll choose "fist parries fist". Why defend if you can attack?

[Ernie]

i might be mistaken but i think what tony is getting at is

i'm looking for a wing chun answer for a grappleing question ergo [ tan bong fook ]

victor recommends a grappleing answer for a grappleling question = punch to a punch


but in reality i just want to cheat look at all the dirty stuff that is not allowed and get good at that , thus not needed to pick up a whole system but train enough to interrupt there game and get to my game

thus my interest in short cuts and pain infliction :D

but like anything i know i have to spend time developing feel in the '' shell '' of there game to understand position and develop a platform to cheat from :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know, Ernie...I'm glad you made this latest post because I thought what Tony was referring to...

Was remarks I (and you) made on the Bridging against Boxers thread...not this thread.

I "think"(?) he's talking about defending against punches...not against a grappling attack.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Now regarding the rest of what you said in your latest post about wanting to use the "dirty-fighting" (cheating) tactics to take the grappler out of his game and get back to yours...

This can take you pretty far, agreed.

But as you said...developing a feel for the grappler's game - in order to understand position - so that you can develop a platform to cheat from...

now becomes a question of the "devil being in the details".

The question becomes exactly HOW MUCH to learn about grappling in order to deal with it?

And the more you work with grappler-types the more the answer reveals itself.

[canglong]

i might be mistaken but i think what tony is getting at is
i'm looking for a wing chun answer for a grappleing question ergo [ tan bong fook ]
victor recommends a grappleing answer for a grappleling question = punch to a punch
Exactly!

As to your reply Parlati Sifu, it was an excellent wing chun response although the analogy was not allowing for time to change the line as you state-- "at a slightly different angle" . Secondly as to what Ernie saw in my post it was just conveying the wing chun answer to a particular situation to which there are many to which there are vast and varied wing chun answers which when understood completely might override the necessity to step outside the bounds of wing chun. Lastly this has been some good reading keep it up.

[Ernie]

victor

you remind me of the answer i give when people ask me to teach them chi sau or trapping skills with out understanding of the forms and concepts .

sure i can get them going with some basic reflex actions and to the untrainined eye they might look good but in the end it will be empty :D

to be able to cheat and be good at it you need to understand what it is your cheating .

that being said if i look at it from a attribute stand point

wing chun training has given me a a understanding of sensitivity ,position and body control

ground arts [ bjj , catch, filipino etc ] also use the same attributes just from a different platform

then i have to add in the amount of time to learn vs the possibility of having to use this skill

invesment vs profit devided by probability

so lets say 70% standing [ hands feet clinch, kneeling etc..]
20 % weapons [ stick , knife , etc....]
10% gound [ escapes , pain infliction, position ]

this would be a real life practical formula , that can be modified by my current interest level , maybe one month i might do all ground or stick or what ever .
but would have to factor in probability , in my street experience , i have ended most things in some form of standing fighting ,
a few times there have been weapons , bottles , chairs tables and so on
and since i have been an adult i haven't ended up on the floor in a street situation , but i have been in a few mass attack situations were at one point or another every body fell and stumbled and had to get up , but not in a rollinlg around head lock type thing .


that being said it's been quite a few years [ thank god ] since i have been in a real dirty street situation and people are more prown to go down since the ufc craze , the street guy has more skill in that arena so i can't ignore it

if i were competeting in a fighting event i would probably split may training 50 , 50 standing and ground

but that's not what i'm interested in
so my looking into the ground has to be cost effective to my percieved reality of what i would need in the street


so in short if you were prepareing yourself or some one for a no holds bar street fight were it could happen anywhere anytime with possible weapons or mass attack how would you orginize there training approach

and were would you invest most of the time ?




tony

oh no !

we are kind of agreeing on things the world is comeing to an end

run the sky is falling , the sky is falling




:D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie asks:

"If you were preparing yourself...for a no holds barred streetfight where it could happen anywhere, anytime...with possibly weapons or a mass attack - how would you organize the training approach and where would you invest most of the time?"

50% standup striking/kicking/footwork/throwing/sweeping
20% anti-takedown defenses
20% ground-grappling
05% weapons
05% mass attack

Unless, of course...I got a tip that the bad guys might be planning a mass attack...possibly with weapons.

Then it would be at least 60% on weapons and mass attack - 40% on everything else.

Rough crowd !!!

[canglong]

run the sky is falling , the sky is falling LOL, Ernie watch out now don't be trying to start nothing between me and the V man with all your :D 's you knows I gots nothing but love for everyone here. 1 point deducted from Ernie for excessive :D lol hmmm even ballgame again hehehehe. Parlati Sifu, get him he is all yours.

[KenWingJitsu]

Ernie....food 4 thought. The best way to "cheat" on the ground is...to be good on the ground.

You know 'bout Roy Harris right (ask Rob)? Well he told me a story of a guy who tried to "out dirty trick him" pinched him, & tried to eye gouge him in what was supposed to be a grappling only match).. So Roy simply swept him, mounted him and stayed there. Then elbowed & punched the floor beside the guys head and said "knockout"....then stuck his fingers lightly in the guys eys and said "eye jab"....then put the guy in a head & arm choke...and bit...yes bit him :-D....(now the guy couldn't move). The guy couldn't get out.

Point being. You can never "out-cheat" a good grappler. because if he decides to "cheat" also,....guess who's f@cked. The winner will be the one with [B]better positioning skills. [B] Positioning skills + "cheats" will beat "cheats only" everytime.

[Ernie]

i will be the sacrificial lamb
in order to keep world peace:D


ha ha



victor

[[50% standup striking/kicking/footwork/throwing/sweeping
20% anti-takedown defenses
20% ground-grappling
05% weapons
05% mass attack]]]

this is a very important and honest view
if we are aware of our end goal then we can mold out training to fit the goal

my goal is always viewed through a street filter , now this filter is very personal , my interpitation of a street fight based on what I have experienced

but if we look at in a universal way there are commen denominators

can't pick the time place or size of the person or persons
nor can we be overly trained in just one area , since this will make us weak by way of favoritism


so if we don't know who we are going to fight when we are going to fight were we are going to fight and what skill that person might have

what are we left with ?

for me the answer is simple , my own abilities , attributes , conditioning and most of all adaptability

the hard part is training methods and how much time to invest in each thing

I guess in some ways it comes back to

self preservation

and

self perfection

self preservation , tells you to be functional in any range or situation , do whatever it take to survive


self perfection ,
to dig deeply into what ever art your holds your interest at any given time

[Ernie]

dhira

have to disagree on this one

Roy Harris
is a jkd man and trained in kina muay thai though vunak

besides being an incredible grappler , he know's how to terminate the ground game from his street training

most ground guys don't train the ground with pain infliction and bite defense

sure any one can bite or try to eye jab but like anything if you haven't trained it you won't pull it off , if you haven't trained against it from some one who knows what they are doing
you won't have a good defense


like a guy just trying to head butt or bite you in the street
you can and should shut that down

but the same guy doing it with some sensitivity training that has practiced it on many people from all walks of life for years
well he probably will pull it off

Roy Harris

is a exception , he has the full package

i only speak from experience with pure bjj guys i played with they were very open to '' dirty tactics '' now if they can adapt and turn it back on me with there ground skills combined then i'm dead !


but we both know my ground skills are weak so i have to keep my opinions open ended and subject to change :D

now keeping it street effective how much ground do you really need beyond , shoot defense , position and escape

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Again you've answered your own questions - but I suspect that you don't like the answers.

You, yourself said that you train primarily from a street point-of-view...which is one of the reasons why I like you so much - I do the same exact thing. Tournaments are nice - and UFC and the like are great - precisely because they come so close to reality...BUT because there are still certain rules and conditions attached to MMA events - it's not quite the same as the non-rules of the street.

All this is true.

But Dhira is right...don't underestimate the guys who train UFC tournament style...I know you don't underestimate their guts, their skills, their training habits...but don't assume they will not be aware of the potential dangers of certain moves that might work in a "match" (that has rules) - but wouldn't work in the street...because the dirty fighter might take advantage of the openings.

Perhaps some of these guys miss that point - but don't assume they all do.

FIRST RULE OF THE STREET - NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE GUY IN FRONT OF YOU.

Like Dhira says - if both guys decide to cheat while on the ground - my money is on the one who REALLY CAN GRAPPLE - not the guy tryin' to fake it.


Morale of the story:

As time goes on...step-by-step...piece-by-piece...you might want to learn some REAL grappling.

IT IS STREETWORTHY.

[Ernie]

victor
[[Again you've answered your own questions - but I suspect that you don't like the answers.]]


my questions are a circlular they lead back to the begining
:D

just voiceing things others may be thinking


as for ufc guys and there abilities , anybody that is sitting 200 pounds plus is athletic and can kick hit and grapple
has my utmost respect period ......in or out of the ring

the ring is often for an already sick minded individual to express his emotional content legally :D

but i would like to pass on a story that vunak passed on ti a few of us one day .

now vu has trained with the best and he is a great ground fighter .
but he was training some ground and pound guys once and after wards they all went out for drinks at the bar .
now he was feeling a little funny since he was out of state and it was a hick bar , but he had over 600 pound of ground and pound muscle with him so hell why not

well of course they ended up in a fight [ go figure ]
and they were out numberes
now with the 5 or 6 guys he had he should have easily made it out of there ok
but that was not the case , instead of staying onthere feet and working off the mass attack fighting and pushing your way to the exit .
the g&p guys did just what they were trained to do they each rushed one guy and took him down and staerted to serve a beat down , problem is they were out numbered and they hicks in the bar started to square dance on there heads

moral of the story paul ended up in icu for 3 days and all his boys were in the hospital

the ground guys were to focused on there '' way'' of fighting even in a street situation the fought as though they were in a one on one match in a ring

great fighters bad programing

my limited experience has shown me the same thing , people are great in there element but alter the element and people have trouble adapting

so lets look at what makes a great mma
conditioning, and fight experience
then there skills

so if i am conditioned and i train in street oriented sparring , and i allready have wing chun plus boxing ,savate and thai and filipino weapons
how much do i need to invest in the ground
to be comfortable in a street situation
enough to know position and escape , dirty tactics and how to defend against them .

or do i invest in sub mission , which i'm allready familiar with from wing chun and dumog from a standing and kneeing position

should i spend years on the bjj game or just there weakness like ankle locks , mixed in with some hke biting and bone on bone pain complience

i'm being the devils advocate victor so just have fun with it

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know what...Ernie - you've got a point. Very interesting Vunak story, indeed.

Perhaps you already have enough street ground-fight savy...not to have to spend YEARS learning some grappling now.

I don't know? I have to come to California and check you out.

Then I'll know.

Don't be swingin' no machetes at me now.

[Ernie]

victor
Don't be swingin' no machetes at me now.


ha ha a cuban swinging a machete were would you get such a silly notion


as for coming down man my house is your house or apt. and sofa in my case :)


honest assesment of my skills simple my ground game is weak based on hand me down senstivity from wing chun , and filipino concept and gambling and a whole lot of luck

so i know i need to train hands down no b.s.
and like anything the more you investigate something the more you realize how little you really knew about and how all your oppinions were based on assumptions

so until i get my feet wet it's all blah blah blah

:D

one thae same note , i allways keep my street filter handy just to keep me in check

just like when i box or any other thing i might have fun playing with

look at it for what it is and take away what i can from it .

so to sum up this thread the best way to stay on 2 feet is to be just as comfortable on the ground :D

[KenWingJitsu]

LOL.

You know what's funny Ernie,. as soon as I typed Roy's name I had a feeling you'd say "but he's a JKD guy so it doesnt matter....". Guess I know you too well eh?

I was actually going to use a similar example With Rickson Gracie. But I didnt want to use the "Gracie" name to prove my point, so I used Roy instead. But here it is.

Rickson was giving a seminar. To marines no less. One marine Sargent thought he would destroy Rickson with "dirty tricks" clawing & biting & nut shots to prove Ricksons BJJ was ineffective..

Let's just say that shortly thereafter, the dirty tricks were turned on him similar to the Roy's story, except....this guy was seriously maimed. Rickson didnt just "show" what he could do...he actually did it. and really FLl cked the dude up. lol. Point being. He who controls position better, controls the dirty trickery.

Any way, no more excuses. we're getting you on the ground and you will like it. :D

[Ernie]

Any way, no more excuses. we're getting you on the ground and you will like it.

ha ha that's what friends are for :D

i'm working on some sunday sessions with rob
both you guys got fights coming up so i'll wait till after that

i know better then to'' play'' with a guy preparing for a fight :)


when the tap out thing was first starting years ago my girlfriend worked with 2 brothers that competed all the time .
we all went to palm springs together and of course boys will be boys
so he asked to spar with me

he tried a fake lead kick follewed by a leg shot thing but i just kept slipping out of range or coming in before he would shoot after a while he just gave up and asked mto roll on the floor

i said cool allways down to learn , he had the hardest time trying to get a lock on me i just kept moving his hands around and slipping away from him
since i don't know any hold i just kept myself from getting held

after a few min. he did get a nice arm bar on me but he had to work for it

next he told me i could put in some hits if i liked
he tripped out from the bottom position '' what ever thats called ''
i pak'ed his hand so hard he fell of me

he never expected it

then he was very interested in wing chun short power .

but i'll tell you this later in the weekend we were all in the pool and he killed me . it was amazing how well his skills adapted and how poorly i performed when i had no ground to resonate off
it's an ugly feeling to get choked and be drowning at the same time

so what did i learn

the unexpected can work both ways ha ha ha

[KenWingJitsu]

Cool story lol. BTW when you did the pak....was he in your guard (your legs around him) or was he mounted? (sitting on you?)

We'll still workout bro lol. I need your footwork at least. We can save the ground stuff till later.

BTW your point about Vunak is a story I've also heard. I do know of a black belt in BJJ who in a similar situation was K.O'd in a bar because he took his guy down and mounted him, while the dudes friend tatoo'd Nike on the back of his head lol.

But my main point is..if you want to "anti-grapple" or avoid subs, the best way, is to know them in and out. Start with escapes. the rest comes easy.

Back to the example from earlier. the UFC. You liked the last show right? Well, remember the black dude from texas (Yves Edwards) who won the split decisin against the Brazilian dude? Well, you need to watch that guy. He is one of my favorites (though that fight should have been a draw). He is the best anti-grappler in the UFC in my opinion. Why? Well, for starters, he's a Muay Thai kickboxer. Second, he is an AMAZING grappler. But you only see him grapple if the guy takes him down. Then he gets back up, even better than Chuck Liddell. Why? he knows the ground inside and out. He said "I dont like rolling around on the floor with sweaty guys. Stand up and fight me like a man" LOL!!! The thing is however, he is so smoooooth on the gorund because he put his time in. He can't be submitted, and ironically, not long ago when some guy tried to take him down, he "saw" the submission and choked the guy out. Irony...the guy was a "grappler" who got submitted by a Kickboxer who was good enough on the ground to see the "gimme" submission and he took it. Just think.....that could be you.

[Ernie]

dhira
But my main point is..if you want to "anti-grapple" or avoid subs, the best way, is to know them in and out. Start with escapes. the rest comes easy

sounds like a plan :)

dhira
We'll still workout bro lol. I need your footwork at least. We can save the ground stuff till later.


ha ha if want my foot , break out the weapons , a glove and a shin gaurd and lets meet at the park

sure thing for real i got all the equipment and a few locations we can work off
bro your now turtle on your feet
maybe i can get rob in and he can kick both our butts


as for Yves Edwards

man i saw what you were talking about right away crispy on his feet and relaxed on the ground sisn't do anything but maintain a safe position until he saw a chance to pop back up

very impressive

it's trip what happens when to guys have ground game but on decides to not play on the ground :D

oh the guy was on top of me and he was trying to do simehting withmy collar and his elbow was coming near my face so i pak'ed it back up into his body on a slight angle it just caught him in transition and tossed him to my side . pure luck


p.s. did you nuke the chicken

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie, Dhira:

Finally did get to see this latest UFC. (Direct TV replayed it). Liddell was impressive - and the fact that something like 5 out of 7 fights ended with a knockout or tko and only 2 by submission was very interesting...I assume due to better boxing and footwork skills and better anti-takedown skills...Edwards was excellent at keeping it up on the feet - one of the biggest reasons being, as you guys said - because he's also so familiar with the ground.

Real streetfighting is best (and safest) done while standing - THAT'S THE BEST CONTROLLING POSITION OF ALL - but knowing the grappling and groundgame is also a must - along with being able to counter takedowns...

because now you've got all the bases covered!

Except for Ernie's machete.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Now here's something we haven't discussed in awhile - but it pertains to the topic of staying up - the three ranges:

Standup
Clinch
Ground

Now obviously quite often people try to rush threw the standup right into a shoot takedown - sometimes playing off a jab or whatever to get close...

But staying on your feet (or putting the other guy on the floor) from the clinch requires more work - and is oftentimes a safer method that guys who really want to take you down for the ground-grapple game will use...

safer because they're already past no-man's land wherein power loaded strikes might take them out if they try a shoot from the longer distance.

But not safer if they don't know what they're doing.

So fighting in the clinch can often become the overall determining factor in who goes down...who stays up...or gets get taken out with strikes like elbow and knee shots.

Comments?

[Ernie]

victor

funny that you bring the mid range up , since after watching the last ufc
that was the only area i saw needing improvement

the footwork was better [ that big bull dog dude moved very nice ]

but the space between punching and the clinch was not as smooth

but in the clinch there was some improvement as well

shoulder bumps foot stomps , knees heck if the could head butt and through standing elbows it might have been a party
:D

but the transition between punch to clinch was a topic of discussion with my group of training partners watching the match

there is a dead zone


even in the clinch there is alot more that can be done
push and pull of the neck with h.k.e flurry's
working in the thumb gouge to the eyes while stearing the head

elevation drops to a ball slap and back up to a head butt

just all kinds of lovely goodies

getting to the neck for me is just the begining of the fight
it's my happy place :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie writes:

"But the space between punching and the clinch was not smooth...there is a dead zone...the transition between punch and clinch was a topic for discussion...even in the clinch there is a lot more that can be done...push and pull of the neck..."

Sounds like a job for SUPER CHI SAO GUY...

Who's now seen the light and wants to make it real.

Seriously, in addition to all that's been mentioned (h.k.e.) - this is really a place (the clinch - or close to it) where the practical application of chi sao skills could really unpleasantly surprise alot of opponents.

[KenWingJitsu]

Ernie. I went another round with the chicken and tapped out....AGAIN! lol. Good ish man, good ish.


So fighting in the clinch can often become the overall determining factor in who goes down...who stays up...or gets get taken out with strikes like elbow and knee shots.

Yes Victor, I got comments. The clinch IS the most underrated, undertrained area of fighting today. Your statement is soooo correct. He who can control the clinnch can safely determine whther the fights stays up or goes down. It's my favorite newest "position". The days of shooting at the legs from halfway across the room are over (Chuck/Tito lol). It's all about the clinch. In many of Liddells fights people have unsucessfully tried to take him down from the clinch. Even though he's a kickboxer, he was a collegiate wrestler, so he owns the clinch and uses it to keep standing.

From a WC point of view, the clinch is even easier to learn than the ground. WC IS the clinch without the "attachment" ;)

[Ernie]

victor
Sounds like a job for SUPER CHI SAO GUY...

Who's now seen the light and wants to make it real


hells yes , man it takes sensitivity and position to pull of a proper head butt knee or elbow

but in all honesty i found better drills in dumog that blended feel and tooling in the clinch

they have a type of chi sau '' sensitivity drill '' were one guy surfs the choke points in the clinch '' from one elbow to the neck and to the other elbow '' learning to pass the body and contol and insert tools at the right time with the right leverage . the cool thing is the guy getting push pulled and fired on is wearing boxing gloves and gets to rip on your body to feed you live energy

so you might be push/pull or stearing a guy of the elbow but you have to defend the shots coming down on you , feel when he is loading up and disrupt his base all the while finding the right time to insert your tools under real pressure

do this for hours and hours and a regular guy that has no feel in the clinch is like a piece of rigid wood you can break him or just move him around :D

also to be honest this is something i would teach outside the wing chun base system , very physical and there is some pain involved

[Nick Forrer]

Hi guys

Speaking of the clinch- any views on Mario Sperrys tactic - double underhooks, push your opponent back against a wall/fence/car etc and then hook your left leg (say) around the outside of his right leg and take him down. This seems more akward to counter than the standard double leg tackle from far away- he says its the only takedown he uses as it minimises the chances of them sprawling and you getting your head bashed in a la silva.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Don't know about what Gary's been teaching you...but there's some elbow striking stuff coming out of chi sao that can get very nasty...

And when you put it together with lop/pak/jut/huen/po-pai combinations coming from a VERY close range...throw in some knees while holding and pulling him in...pushing him there...

some carrots. broccoli, and mushrooms...

AND MAN....YOU'VE GOT SOUP FOR SEVEN GOIN' HERE !

A delicious in-fight Wing Chun broth called Knockout chowder.

[Ernie]

victor
Don't know about what Gary's been teaching you...but there's some elbow striking stuff coming out of chi sao that can get very nasty...


gary's considers the elbow and knee shots helping actions if there there take but don't look for it

but he has a thai fighting back ground so his are more like a baseball bat in power and line

i personally prefer the filipino motion over the thai or wing chun

it's tighter and more refined due to having to slip it in during a stick or blade flow
the shots are percise cutting with the peak of the elbow or tip of the knee cap

in and out much qiuker recovery with out loss of center and almost impossible to block
like guys who put up the tan or a triangle arm shape to stop an arching elbow
i can slighlty zone and come right down the pipe right inside there defense

it's alot more on the cripy side and they zoneing is a nice touch since when they fire they also have to evade

you would have to be on the end of this to fully appriciate it

i was completly frozen when it fisrt happened to me

[Ultimatewingchun]

Nick:

It's a good move - have also seen Royce use it in early UFC stuff -also similar to a bear hug/hook-the-leg takedown that many wrestlers use...

Not unstoppable though - can be countered with overhooks and good balancing techniques - and I wouldn't use it as the only takedown in my arsenal. Another counter for it is a wrestling move called the w_izzer (missing letter is "h")...also kind of a single overhook from the side mixed with sort of a hip throw.

But the point is well worth taking - at that range it can be a good takedown technique.

[FooFighter]

Victor:

Did you know that at the Renzo Gracie academy, they do tons of variations of Kimura locks and alot more legs submissions. From what I understand, most Gracie back in the days stay away from the leg submissions because of the dangerous nature in free style rolling. But the times have changed and the standard is now raised as fighters improve and grow. I must say that most people are "haters". Yes, if you know ebonics, you know what's a hater. Most people are haters because they are jealous and or want to see top dogs fall. Yes, some of them of the Gracies have fallen, but most fail to realize that these men, Gracies, are open minded and are always adapting and learning from their mistakes and improving their game. For that I give them much respect and admiration. Just recently I asked someone about catch wrestling and they told me it is an effective and respectable grappling art, but it has many foul tactics not used in MMA and in sports JuJitsu. Victor, BBJ is constantly been challenged by different styles of grappling daily whereas Catch wrestling does have the same daily grind of different head hunters after them. Well, that is my two pennies.

[anerlich]

From what I understand, most Gracie back in the days stay away from the leg submissions because of the dangerous nature in free style rolling.

That's a minor part of the story. The core strategy of BJJ is to progressively seek positions of greater and greater control prior to applying submissions. Generally leg attacks require you to give up a good position for one of less control, and if you flub the leglock you may end up in a bad position, often giving up the back or similar.

Leglocks are reserved for more advanced students in most academies because the risks of injury are greater if the lock is applied carefully, and regulated more in competition for similar reasons, but that is not the "core" reason why leglocks are employed less than in other arts.


Just recently I asked someone

Ah, glad you found an informed source. Who was it? Pee Wee Herman? Donald Rumsfeld? Julian Clary? Anyone who knew anything?


about catch wrestling and they told me it is an effective and respectable grappling art, but it has many foul tactics not used in MMA and in sports JuJitsu. Victor, BBJ is constantly been challenged by different styles of grappling daily whereas Catch wrestling does have the same daily grind of different head hunters after them.

This sounds like a troll. Opinions vary. Tony Cecchine works out with BJJ guys and has made videos with them. Gene Lebell isn't really a Catch or BJJ guy, but his technical base is widely regarded as one of the best in the world by grapplers from all disciplines. Sakuraba has beaten four Gracies (including breaking Renzo's arm with a kimura) without needing BJJ.

You, and whoever you asked about Catch Wrestling, need to learn more about grappling styles, as well as TWC (see the TWC thread), before you start posting critically on the subjects, lest you be considered at best ill-informed and at worst a troll.

[FooFighter]

Anerich:

Chill. It wasnt a troll. I asked a student of at the Gracie academy and it wasnt itsulting to BBJ or Catch. I made an honest opinion, I think Gracie family is under attack by many people. I dont think there are the best, but they are learning. Renzo was beaten by the Kimura and now they are learning how to use it and counter it. The whole point of my original post, instead hating, people should stop trash talk and look at what are fighers are doing to improve their game. BBJ has been changing with ever single real life battles with different styles and different fighters with greater physical attributes. With such vast diverse experience on their sides vs Catch, the probablity that BBJ will develop something against Catch's tactics and technical skills seems probable. I never stated I was expert and I humbly apology if I ****ed you off.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Andrew Nerlich:

Don't be fooled by foofighter's back-and-forth goodguy/badguy routine...(Not that I really thought you would be).

Check out the latest posts on the "Traditional Wing Chun Guys" thread and you'll see why I think I know who he is and why he makes the uninformed, insulting, and contradictory posts he does - then go check out the exchanges between him and myself toward the end of the"Why Catch Wrestling is Inferior" thread...

At which point you should really get the picture of what he's all about...he knows next to nothing about Catch and just a small little piece of TWC (and it's footwork - he spent about 8-9 months at my school about three years ago). His posts are about his dissatisfaction with ME...not about TWC or Catch.

HE'S THE GUY (with the minimal TWC knowledge) who couldn't deal with other stylists !!!

[FooFighter]

Dear Victor,

I dont plan to insult you so play internet war games. Lets be clear on certain subjects. I never claimed to be a bad arse or an expert of anything, ok. Most of my experience of TWC have been through you, Jim, Serras, Whitmore, Rick Spain's student, of course my own research while I was your student and most of my si hings at the Alan Lee's academy were ex TWC students of Mr. Whitmore. So my knowledge of TWC is indeed valid and do have a fair opinion on this subject. When I was student yours, you weren't doing any Catch wrestling. As I recalled I was very close with Vince and during pre 9/11 had discussion about Pride Fights
even before you have seen it. Unlike you have visited well known NYC grappling instructors and have not only used media as my main source of information. With that in mind, have a swell day.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Tran:

The Catch Wrestling was going on in my advanced classes - to which you were not privy to...

And Sonny Whitmore (as anybody who's anybody within William Cheung's Association can tell you)...was not someone whose TWC skills should be used as a barometer of what Traditional Wing Chun is all about....Chris Serras - the same thing.

I didn't quite get your reference to Rick Spain's student...who is this?...and EXACTLY HOW MUCH TIME did you spend with him?

Rick Spain certainly IS a top notch TWC practitioner - but your reference to him and his unnamed student - LIKE SO MUCH OF WHAT YOU POST....is confused and confusing.

YOU ARE A TROLL...TRAN.

LET'S MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT.

LOOKING TO CREATE CONTROVERSY WHEREVER HE CAN.

And my advice to anyone reading your posts is to take EVERYTHING you say with a grain of salt.

You have a somewhat convincing way (including convincing yourself - which is why some might think you are sincere)...a way of conveying passion and conviction...

But your knowledge of TWC is trivial - at best...COMPLETELY MISTAKEN - at worst... WHICH CAN VARY AND ALTERNATE FROM POST-TO-POST of yours - sometimes from sentence to sentence.

And the fact that you were the first to bring the Sakuraba-Royce Gracie fight to my attention - SO WHAT?

Does this prove something?

Do you have any idea how many UFC fights I had seen, taped, analyzed, and brought moves and scenarios from....to my advanced classes...to be worked on by myself and my advanced students...

by the time that the Sakuraba-Royce Gracie fight occurred?

You have no clue...do you?

Don't waste any more of time, Tran.

[anerlich]

Renzo was beaten by the Kimura and now they are learning how to use it and counter it.

The kimura has been part of BJJ since day one, dude. It was named after a famous and hugely skilled Japanese jodoka/jujitsuka called, yes, Kimura, who beat Helio Gracie in a match in Brazil maybe 50 years ago. And I'm sure Helio was well versed with it WAY before that.

Sakuraba beat Renzo after Renzo took his back standing - Saku broke the grip, got the Kimura standing, rolled and flipped Renzo and got the top position.

A judo guy won his match with almost the identical move in UFC 44.

This move even appears in *Renzo*'s book, "Mastering Ju Jitsu". It has an EXCELLENT section on BJJ history and strategic philosophy, something you would be well advised to read before you make ANY more uninformed statements about grappling arts on this forum.

You are the one who bought up hating the Gracies. No one else. Royce and Rickson are heroes to 99% of grapplers and MMA practitioners in the world today. With about 5 years of BJJ behind me, I can assure you they are heroes to me.

It became quite obvious you had issues with Victor when you spouted off your uninformed rubbish about BOTH TWC and catch. If you have something to impart about what you do, great, but stop making foolish comments about arts you know nothing about just to annoy Victor.

Rick Spain is my teacher. Which of my si-hings are you insulting now? Maurice Llewellyn would be the only guy that fits. He has a semipro boxing and kickboxing record which kind of knocks your crap on the other thread about TWC guys having trouble with boxers right out of the ring, I would think.

For chrissake, leave your past issues behind. It's attitudes like yours that give WC a bad name.

[FooFighter]

Parlati:

Catch Wrestling wasnt even in your vocabulary nor in the senior students when I studying at your school. Dont lie about this because in our conversation about MMA, you never used "catch" in your vocabulary.

First I never trash talked about any martial artists with you or here on this forum. I have researched all the WC in my area and have seen what they had to offer while I was attending your school. At Fight House, I met Maurice, a student of Rick Spain and I spent an hour watching his class and asking questions his direct training non seminar training with sibak Cheung. I found him to be very intersting man. People have spoke about my attitude? Victor, I heard more internal political nonsense in TWC as well as trash talk about other Modified WC people from your mouth than most sifus in our area.


YOU ARE KNOW IT ALL, PARLATI. LET'S MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT. YOU ARE LOOKING TO CREATE DRAMA WHEREVER YOU CAN!

My Advice to people reading Victor's posts is to take EVERYTHING you say with a grain of salt because you will need it.

Victor, I am convincing because I am honest and have good moral principles and I dont need to trash talk to prove my point.

Victor, I am no expert in TWC, BJJ, Catch, even WC. In my opinion,
your knowledge of modified WC is trivial at best...COMPLETELY MISTAKEN - at worst- limited to one source MOY YAT. IF you studied with three modified wing chun sifus than decided that TWC was perfect for you, then it would have much merit. I only studied with one TWC, you, so how can I make a fair assestment of TWC? I know TWC based on what I seen in real life, what I have read, and trying its principles under real pressure. If that is not good enough, then all people here should doubt their own abilities to know the basics of their art.

And the fact that you were the first to bring the Sakuraba-Royce Gracie fight to my attention - SO WHAT? Does this prove something?

GOOD QUESTION.
VICTOR, IT SHOWS THAT YOU WERENT EVEN AWARE OF CATCH WRESTLING AT THIS TIME NOR WAS IT YOUR VOCABULARY. THE FAMOUS CATCH WRESTER YOU USED, SAKURABA, SO OFTEN TO PROVE YOUR CATCH ARGUEMENTS AGAINST BBJ WAS UNKNOWN TO YOU AT THIS TIME. WHERE AS I KNEW ABOUT SAKURABA AND HIS BACKGROUND MORE SO THAN YOU, A PRESENT DAY CATCH EXPERT? YOU HOLD YOURSELF AS AN EXPERT OF CATCH HERE ON THIS FORUM AND IF KNEW CATCH'S INFLUENCE IN JAPAN AND ETC THEN WHY DIDNT YOU KNOW ABOUT SAKURABA THEN? WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR CATCH INFORMATION? FROM SECONDED HANDED SOURCE OR FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE? YOU ARE A CATCH NEWBIE TRYING TO PLAY OFF AS IF YOU WERE AN OLD TIMER. GIVE ME A BREAK! Dont waste my time with your nonsense..

Oh yeah, I have heard thro Rich, Mike, and Vince about your grappling sessions in the advance class. Good for you and they never used Catch in their vocabulary.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Tran....You're trash.

Garbage...and not worthy of any more of my time.

And again...I'm going to tell you...if you have a problem with me...come and see me.

In the meantime,

Adios.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Post script: (Tran)...

And as for Catch Wrestling and me...ALL MY ADVANCED STUDENTS (Mike, Brett, Rich, Myron, Kimathi)...knew that I had first studied Catch for a three year period back in the early-mid 1960's...and that I went back to it as of about 4 years ago. Add Vince to that list of people who knew as well.

Yes...there is someone in this conversation who has been trying to pass himself off as somebody he's not (both literally and figuratively)...

BUT THAT SOMEONE IS YOU.

So take a hike !

[Ultimatewingchun]

Post Script: (Tran)

As for Catch Wrestling and me...ALL MY ADVANCED STUDENTS (Mike, Brett, Rich, Myron, Kimathi)...they all knew that I had studied Catch for a three year period back in the early-mid 1960's...and that I returned to Catch about 4 years ago...and include Vince in that list of people who knew as well.

And as soon as you mentioned that this guy named Sakuraba had beaten some Gracie's...AND WAS A PRO WRESTLER...I knew right then and there that he was a Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestler...since "Pro" and "Catch" have always meant the same thing.

So don't accuse me of trying to fake things...

You're the only one in this conversation who's tried to pass himself off as somebody he's not...both literally and figuratively.

[Nick Forrer]

'This move even appears in *Renzo*'s book, "Mastering Ju Jitsu". It has an EXCELLENT section on BJJ history and strategic philosophy, something you would be well advised to read before you make ANY more uninformed statements about grappling arts on this forum.'

Andrew- I've got this book and its excellent (much better than another book in the same series). However while other fighters are namechecked and their fighting styles analysed I notice Sak is conspicuously absent- even in the part where they show the move he used to beat Renzo!