BJJs guard exists in Taiji

[Chang Style Novice]

We call it "Tiger Returns to the Mountain."

Imagine taking this posture in a low horse stance, with legs properly bowed as if riding a horse. Now imagine you're lying on your back with an attacker on top of you in the same posture.

Your knees and feet wrap around and control the legs and hips of your opponent. Your hands wrap around their back. Using good taiji posture of chin tucked, you end up pushing your forehead into their chest.

I'm only being about half-facetious here. Obviously, few if any taiji schools demonstrate any ground fighting at all, and if there are some that do, it's unlikely to be anything much like BJJ. But, if you try to come up with applications for taiji motions in groundfighting, I think you can find them. I could even picture taiji qinna working on the ground from a guard type position and possibly working pretty well. What does it really matter if it's gravity that's pinning your guys feet to the floor or your legs pinning his hips in place while you crank his wrist and elbow into really uncomfortable spots?

[norther practitioner]

I've tried single whip whilst on the ground... not as effective as a bjj arm bar, but could still be used, coming out of a side mount type senario.

[Ray Pina]

"few if any taiji schools demonstrate any ground fighting at all, and if there are some that do, it's unlikely to be anything much like BJJ."

I don't know the percentage of other schools, but ground fighting is one of the ranges we train all the time at the school. We have had a number of GJJ guys stop by.

If the principles are solid in stand up, they can be brought to the ground. Create space, control, position, strong shape, ect., ect. It a matter of just getting down there and doing it and getting comfortable there. Think of it as chi sau, it is.

[blooming lotus]

for me I think it's a matter of where there balance is, to what style I'll use....ground or not

[lkfmdc]

the idea of "ground fighting" in traditional Chinese martial arts isn't as "funny" as a lot of so called BJJ drones want to lead people to believe...

Gaau Jin Geuk (golden scissors leg) is exactly the same motion as their standard buard sweep, and the "carp leap" also is an identical motion to one of their sweeps. I could go on, but then that would make for a useful thread, adn we don't want that! :D

[Chang Style Novice]

....we don't?

[Ralphie]

I've seen guard sweeps to mount in cma. Parts of the application are different, but one in particular is almost like pulling guard and turning it right into a sweep. So, there is no laying in guard type application. This was from someone who knew "dog fighting".

[blooming lotus]

now you're onto it......I do something similar as a personal fave...to me it feel like a chen top, jutsu bottom combo....does that make sense??

[ShaolinTiger00]

the idea of "ground fighting" in traditional Chinese martial arts isn't as "funny" as a lot of so called BJJ drones want to lead people to believe...

Gaau Jin Geuk (golden scissors leg) is exactly the same motion as their standard buard sweep, and the "carp leap" also is an identical motion to one of their sweeps. I could go on, but then that would make for a useful thread, adn we don't want that!


Then where did they go David? Why were they "lost" to the majority? If old chinese masters knew how important groundwork was then why did those techniques disappear from virtually every single style of kung fu yet phonenix eye "noogies" remain?

[lkfmdc]

most so called "kung fu" in this country is crap, pure and simple, sorry to be all politically incorrect and all, but China is a culture with a strong tradition of con men and swindlers and in Americans those guys found a perfect audience/victim

how many shaolin monks, undefeated masters, death touches, bare knuckle champions etc does TCMA bost here in the US? Do we need to discuss the BS a certain guy down south claims?

As the most unregulated of martial arts, no belts, no ranking system, no nothing, the only thing that once kept the frauds out, ie the FIGHTING has been lost also

I've seen some guard like stuff in some REAL TCMA, but it was never a major point of study. My sifu did some stuff like guard sweeps, it was one of millions of things that he'd drop in your lap at times, for you to remember, or NOT, he didn't care

Judo certainly has EVERYTHING that BJJ has, but most people in modern judo focus on the Taichi Waza not the Newaza, but get for example Feldenkrais' Higher Judo book and tell me that doesn't look like BJJ for lord's sake!

[lkfmdc]

let me add to that

we all know that Shuai Chiao exists

I can also pretty much show you throws in EVERY system of Chinese martial arts

So why do so many so called TCMA schools not practice or teach throws?

answer, because they SUCK.... generally speaking, the level of our so called "TCMA" is rapidly swirling down the toilet

[ShaolinTiger00]

Judo certainly has EVERYTHING that BJJ has, but most people in modern judo focus on the Taichi Waza not the Newaza,

As a judoka I can tell you that it doesn't matter if the art "has it in the cirriculum" if you're not drilling it - you don't have it.


lol @ "taichiwaza" *does ippon seionage very slowly*

- tachi waza


but this isn't about judo. this was about groundfighting in CMA.

There is not a question about judoka being competant on the mat (it's in how competent compared to bjj that the 2 styles argue) they both run circles around many others..

[ShaolinTiger00]

we all know that Shuai Chiao exists

I can also pretty much show you throws in EVERY system of Chinese martial arts

So why do so many so called TCMA schools not practice or teach throws?

answer, because they SUCK.

I don't think even shuai chaio has proven itself as good as most other throwing arts. Why would I be shocked that other styles with even less emphasis on grappling suck at it?

back to my questions:

I'm not convinced that "because they suck" is a good enough answer. Somehow san shou came out of this horrible mess. Surely effective grappling could have done the same if it existed?

[lkfmdc]

I can find you a PILE of US Judoka who probably couldn't properly do juji-gatame if their lives depended upon it, then there is Neil Adams...

A lot of people say that Judo has no real ground work, but the fact is that it has just fallen into dis-use, so only a FEW do it well. Just like most BJJ people have very poor stand up, while others are also BB in Judo.

Ground fighting isn't dead in TCMA, look at the Fukien Dog Boxing book that is still in print, I've seen it, it just isn't as popular as the fly through the air tin foil weapon crap these days

Chang Tung Sheng would have cleaned the floor with a lot of guys, in fact, HE DID. He beat 6 Judoka in a day once. One after another. david Lin in Atlanta would also make a lot of so called MMA guys crap their pants

San Shou didn't get its emphasis on throws from no where....

[backbreaker]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
[B My sifu did some stuff like guard sweeps, it was one of millions of things that he'd drop in your lap at times, for you to remember, or NOT, he didn't care
[/B]

Whao, I think there really is something to this statement, I hadn't thought of before. Some CMA teachers just show the techniques with explanations a few times, and leave you to shadow box and figure them out. I remember one of my Taiji teachers saying that when he would be learning his teacher would show him the moves a few times, and then not again until his teacher was satisfied he knew it, and he would also not learn another move until then. But in submission wrestling classes I've attended, the teacher would go around to each student correcting little errors

[Merryprankster]

i beat 7 in one day under their rules, TRYING to avoid using my newaza to win. i'm no judoka! in fact, i'm not terribly good at throws. my point being that that's not really a big deal. it would have earned him first place at the local shiai.

now, if you said he beat 6 E class judoka in one day, that's pretty **** good!

i'm not doubting his skill, i'm just saying that who you beat is just as important as how many...and i firmly believe a good guy can do it. after all, it's grappling, not rocket science.


i think st00 is making a point that is really a corollary to yours. there isn't an argument here that i can tell.

point being that if only a handful of people can do it even passably, and you've got maybe 5 true experts then you can't really say "we've got it too." well, not really. not really truly. certain people have it, but not the art as a whole.

not even if the books say so--some old judo books have leglocks, but i hesitate to say "judo has leglocks."

you may feel differently, but that's fine

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
What does it really matter if it's gravity that's pinning your guys feet to the floor or your legs pinning his hips in place while you crank his wrist and elbow into really uncomfortable spots? Because when you are standing gravity is also pulling YOUR feet to the floor. On the ground your feet are free. BIG difference.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I can find you a PILE of US Judoka who probably couldn't properly do juji-gatame if their lives depended upon it, then there is Neil Adams...

A lot of people say that Judo has no real ground work, but the fact is that it has just fallen into dis-use, so only a FEW do it well. Just like most BJJ people have very poor stand up, while others are also BB in Judo.


lol @ you telling me this David... I'm the judoka. I know from my own experience. I'm a bjj blue and I've been tapping out bb judoka for years and continue to teach the class (which for a judo club has lots of groundwork) new techniques.

And I know very well that there are some judoka with AMAZING groundwork that is comprable to some of the best grappling athletes around. I've met some judoka whose osaekomi was tighter than a straight jacket..

and like MP, I've also defeated 7 judoka (actually 5 of them were consecutive with no rest (boom, next!, boom, next!..)in a single day. To a competitor this means nothing.. and I always get a chuckle when Chang Tung Sheng is worshipped.

one guy.

you tell me you have an amazing art and you can only find one truly "great" (still questionable) man. one guy in an entire style. I could name a list of wrestlers, sambo players, judoka, bjjers a mile long..

as for san shou's throwing abilities.. I'm sure sambo's influence was huge on the Chinese program and thouroughly improved and reformed any existing throwing. (which came from Judo anyways..)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
the idea of "ground fighting" in traditional Chinese martial arts isn't as "funny" as a lot of so called BJJ drones want to lead people to believe...
[/B]

Assuming that's true, how many of them address it on a regular basis? That's the main issue. People say chin na will work on the ground. I don't *fully* deny that. However, things are different on the ground - different degrees/angles of movement, etc. if you are gonna apply it on the ground, you will have to work at it, it won't just directly transfer, like some people think.

[Xebsball]

When i was 14 this one time i beat up myself 4 times in a row in a total period of 1 hour, then i had to stop cos my parents arrived from church.
i could have beaten a lot more if i had more time.

[lkfmdc]

why do people respect Chang? Well, first of all, we weren't talking about YMCA Judoka here. We are talking about him beating old school Kodokan black belts who were sent to teach the Japanese military. He beat them one after another, and that is just ONE of his accomplishments

At 60, he went to Morocco to teach the royal family, the royal family wanted him to first fight their body guards, a 4th dan Judoka and a guy who had placed at the world Kyokushinkai Karate championships. He beat BOTh in under a minute

Did I mention that he won the government sponsored national free sparring championships where the only rules were no groin strikes and no eye gouges by beating 5 guys in one day?

He continued to fight and accept challenges his entire life and NEVER LOST

And he isn't the only guy in his tradition to have skills, see David Lin in Atlanta or Jeng in NYC.

I studied SC with Jeng and as part of my training with Chan Tai San. I never wrestled in HS etc. I have held my own with Judoka, etc with those skills alone. With a little training in Sambo and Catch, I gave a pile of blue belts fits at one of Rickson's seminars. Of course, HE tapped me. I've been tapped by quite a few BJJ black belts, and learned something every time. But I was more scared when Gene Lebell was cranking me.

Forgive my bluntness, but after 30 years or so, I've sort of come to the conclusion that all the "good stuff" is relatively the same. Some have different bends and twists, but they also flow pretty well.

Every SC throw I know I can transition smoothly to a submission. I've seen enough ground work from real TCMA guys to know that it did exist, it just wasn't something they focussed on. Attacking them for that, and I"ll point out that BJJ and Judo guys are pretty **** poor when knees, kicks and slaps are involved. What's the point?

Another simple reason they never bothered with ground, was because no one was bothering. What is practical and useful in fights has a lot to do with the fights where you are. A lot of TCMA is developed around the attacks and defenses that were being used THEN

A lot of the BJJ "self defense" stuff seems pretty silly in 2004 USA but were common attacks in Brazil in Helio's day

In 2004 USA, we have wrestling and boxing, now we also have a big BJJ movement. So train because those are the attack types you'll see.

[lkfmdc]

7 star - Chin Na locks are pretty similar to old style Japanese Jujitsu locks, with the same ideas behind them. Disarm a weapon weilding opponent or free your own hands to grab your weapon

As a contemporary fighting method, joint locks suffer because once people train a little grappling live, they learn how to move to escape the locks. They can do that because standing up you can move in 3D.

The more live practice you do, the more you learn that the best place to lock someone is on the ground, where the ground eliminates one of the dimensions and prevents escape.

Old style Judo still had a lot of standing locks, but in randori they seldom work....

[Kaitain(UK)]

I just went for a dump and was reading the paper - I suddenly realised that I was in open guard position.

Then i was sat on the sofa with my legs crossed - I pulled my heel towards me with my hand and suddenly realised I was doing a triangle choke.

Let's be realistic here - there are a finite number of positions the body can take, so you are fairly likely to find similarities and parallels everywhere. I find this just as bizarre when people who train karate and taiji with me express amazement that certain positions from the form are present in their kata. It's just movement - it's how you apply it that matters.

Paul

[Merryprankster]

"Forgive my bluntness, but after 30 years or so, I've sort of come to the conclusion that all the "good stuff" is relatively the same. Some have different bends and twists, but they also flow pretty well."

ah, truth! it is all the **** same.



Attacking them for that, and I"ll point out that BJJ and Judo guys are pretty **** poor when knees, kicks and slaps are involved. What's the point?

the point is that straight judoka and bjjers typically don't claim expertise in knees, kicks, slaps, IME. however, many many many TCMA (TJMA too) guys jump up and down like a five year old wanting ice cream saying "me too, me too, me too," when it comes having genuine grappling expertise.

of course, judo and bjj have their warts - don't get me started on "judo biddies" or bjj thugs. ugh....

[ShaolinTiger00]

Well said Paul.

[Chang Style Novice]

I said back in my original post I was only being half facectious. Of course, if you don't train ground grappling live, you're not going to get any good at it, even if you do know some basic ideas about the positions it's neccesary to assume and the strategies that need to be pursued - same as any other kind of fighting, or for that matter any other kind of skill at all.

Knifefighter (and other floorfighting guys) -

Your point is well taken, and I'm aware that the game changes considerably (maybe utterly would be a better word) when legs and feet are freed from their duty to support the body. But still - if you've got a tight closed gaurd around your opponent's hips, aren't you both similarly 'immobilized' from the waist down as you would be while standing, and as long as you stay like that, the arm game is what's important - and not too drastically different from standup grappling? This may be a dumb question, as I've done hardly any groundwork so I'm just going by what I see.

[ShaolinTiger00]

if you've got a tight closed gaurd around your opponent's hips, aren't you both similarly 'immobilized' from the waist down as you would be while standing, and as long as you stay like that, the arm game is what's important - and not too drastically different from standup grappling? This may be a dumb question, as I've done hardly any groundwork so I'm just going by what I see.

CSN, not so. there are many submissions and sweeps that can be performed from a closed guard. Your hips are not immobolized if you're using the guard and that is the key to leverage. Only a fool (or someone purposefully stalling an opponent) would let an opponent keep his hips and back flat to the floor.

[lkfmdc]

if you think I'm the defender of the typical TCMA geek, you haven't been paying attention here at ALL :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

if you think I'm the defender of the typical TCMA geek, you haven't been paying attention here at ALL

not sure who this is directed at;

personally, i sympathize with you - but when you start talking, "does TCMA/TJMA, BJJ, etc have 'x'," you start talking generalities.

hey--question for you sifu--is there anything from your more traditional training, that San Da DOESN'T give you?

[bob10]

How does a tai chi man on the ground generate his power? Does it cease to become tai chi if he is not using "energy starting in the feet directed by the waist" etc?

My feeling is there is no ground fighting component in tai chi as it was not an area that those guys would fight in. Maybe a culutral thing - it was not seemly to be rolling round in the dirt, or the fact that if someone went to the ground he had "lost" the fight.

[SevenStar]

not sure if this applies to taiji as well, but if you ask a mantis practitioner, he'll tell you that they use short power on the ground. there are several other styles that claim that also.

[David Jamieson]

well, it looks like Kaitan's open guard in a reversal would quickly turn into a cleveland steamer for any of his opponents by the analogy he gives.

That and the dual usage of the triangle choke whil attempting a bundy...well, I just don't know what the heck he's doing over there, but hey! Who am I to judge? :D

[Ralphie]

Different way of looking at ground fighting for practical reasons. Being immobilized on the ground is not a good place to be in a street fight, like pulling guard. Even grapplers know this. It's not good or bad, just practical. Imobilizing someone on the ground while maintaining a certain position like knee on stomach is practical. You can see certain positions like this in CMA. Submission grapplers use submissions. CMA, as tought, likes hitting areas like kidneys, floating ribs, and other soft spots if they have taken their opponent to the ground. CMA also seems to clutch or crush throats, where submission guys do blood chokes. CMA has this as well, but there is an inherent attempt to end things quickly. Therefore, there is an emphasis on causing trauma to *critical* areas.
So I don't have to read mundane replies, I realize you have to know how to fight in order to pull these manuevers off. Let's just assume that for this example.