Wing Chun and Hand Speed..

[Golden Arms]

Hi all, I have to say that some of the fastest hands I have seen on a martial artist have been on Wing Chun guys, so I wanted to know the following. Are there excercises consistantly practiced in Wing Chun (spelled however you want), that over time develop this to a high level/and/or relaxation in the shoulders to generate this? I know a lot of schools do 1000's of vertical punches and the like, but I have a hunch there are other things that are used for this development as well. If so, care to satisfy my curiosity? Thanks!

[KingMonkey]

I dont think they are generally faster than others in fact probably slower than most boxers.
Although you're not the first person I have heard say this. I think it's because WC'unners normally chain punch and this decieves the observer.

No secrets though, same for any punch, speed comes from working the twitch muscle and developing targetted relaxation.

[blkbelt65]

"Slower than Most" ???? You must be speaking of your own skill.

[william]

slower than most boxers???? I thinks the speed is not only in the punches but the transition from technique to technique.

W

[Ultimatewingchun]

Golden Arms:

Wing Chun punches ARE structurally slightly faster than other punches because the line (route) used is a straighter one than even the straight punches used in boxing.

And the shortest distance between two points is a straight line...(shorter distance to travel means you arrive there faster).

[KingMonkey]

Speed of punch delivery is not quite the same thing as hand speed.

[blooming lotus]

i don't know that's so much of a style attribute as it is personal

[kj]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Speed of punch delivery is not quite the same thing as hand speed.

Right. "It doesn't matter who is faster, as much as who gets there first."

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Gangsterfist]

There is an old chinese proverb that says:


You do not know something until you do it 1000 times
You do not understand something until you do it 10,000 times

I have heard several wing chun sifu's use that saying. Practicing 1000 chain punches a day definately helps develope your speed and technique of the punch. On this topic I will say its not the individual 100%. A lot of it has to do with what victor said about the structure and mechanics of a wing chun punch. To my knowledge wing chun is one of the very few systems that punches like this and emphasizes using the bottom 3 knuckles. Other systems have straight punches, but not really like wing chuns. I am not saying other systems are wrong. A lot of times it can be looked at hitting first, and making as many hits as possible on your opponet. If you take several punches to the body really fast over and over to will get some kind of shock from it, and it will eventually overwhelm your opponet unless they act upon it.

OTOH, I have also seen some very fast hooks, crosses,jabs, uppercuts, and especially back fists. So, part of it does depend on the individual's skill.

[Golden Arms]

Thanks..keep it coming if you have more info. And yes..I realize there is such a thing as natural talent, but I also know that a common thread in many wing chun players that have been doing it a while (10+) years or so, is that they have a good relaxed, fast hand speed and mechanics...not the only martial art to do so, but definately good at it.

The mechanics responses make a lot of sense, since it would be learning a "way to move"...very cool.

[Gangsterfist]

Sorry for this, but I am going to go slightly off topic and say something I have been thinking about lately about the chain/straight punch.

They say the chain punch comes from the heart. It does in a litteral sense, and a metaphorical sense. Litterally because you chamber the punch at the center of your chest, right where your heart would be. This action also by nature and structure is guarding the body. The elbow is dropped and guarding. The arm is not tense so you can feel incoming attacks. When attacking the centerline you are in return guarding your own center line with your bridges. So I find it amazing that our basic attack, is also an advanced attack by both guarding and attacking at the same time. While also being in an effecient posistion to act upon and feel out your opponet.

Okay, just had to put that out there, sorry for being a bit off topic.

GF

[yuanfen]

Positioning, alignment and timing.
Shows up not only in fist work but in palm work and everything else.
yuanfen

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi GA,

It's probably less a matter of speed and more a matter of flow. Through chisau training, the average wc practitioner learns to flow from one thing to the next, in any order, without thinking. This may give the illusion of hand speed, but I bet if you measure it, the speed of an average wing chun punch isn't that much faster than an average boxing punch, if at all.

Just my two cents, I may be wrong...

Regards,
Alan

[anerlich]

IMO the SINGLE Wing Chun punch is not necessarily faster than any other straight punch.

What WC structure SHOULD allow, if done properly, is more punches in a given interval.

For supreme speed, you will probably have to make some sacrifices in other areas.

Other than the structure, you as a human are up against the same obstacles as anyone else, and would train for an explosive punch the same ways a sprinter, boxer, shotputter, javelin thrower, pitcher, etc would to increase the speed of your punch. Realistically though, there is very little you can do with your physiology to DRAMATICALLY increase single punch speed - only small increases are realistic. The real advantages come in learning timing and incorporating other aspects such as footwork.

My Sifu once spent six months really trying to increase his punches per second. He achieved a measurable increase and reached the goal he had sert himself, but gave it up after that as he felt the concentration on this single aspect was hurting his overall proficiency.

[lawrenceofidaho]

"Speediness" of chain punches also varies greatly according to how far back the fist travels before it begins to move forward again.

-Compare the difference in the rate of punches thrown when the fist withdraws to; the mid-forearm (short path), the elbow (medium path), and then mid-bicep (long path). Also, hold a striking pad for someone while they do this, and FEEL the difference in those punches.......

-Lawrence

[canglong]

Golden Arms
When the old man appears faster than the younger man he is not referred to as lightning fast he is referred to as a sage.

[Losttrak]

What is that old Bruce Lee saying:

Its not how fast it is,
but how soon it gets there.

Always liked that one.

[kj]

Originally posted by Losttrak
What is that old Bruce Lee saying:

Its not how fast it is,
but how soon it gets there.

That saying far predates Bruce. Like other pearls, he was savvy enough to pick up on it.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Savi]

Movement Speed and Reactional Speed are two elements that must be developed for Total Speed. Akin to what others have been saying here, reactional speed is the greater of the two; hence, who really "gets" there first?.

Generally speaking, the science of Wing Chun is focused around making motions as efficient as possible. This involves very specific body structures and having concepts and theories to reinforce them. Much of our Chi Sau training (just one example) presumably (can't speak for everyone!) sharpens our reactional skills. Couple that with the usage of our space; based on wing chun structure-which is designed around efficiency, and you have what many see as the "lightening-fist". Once you can identify with the science behind Wing Chun, you can see that person is utilizing the space before him/her more efficiently than the other; based on movement AND reaction (sensitivity) combined.

[FooFighter]

Golden Arms

Yes, Wing Chun has fast hands but there are pretty fast hands in other methodology. I have much respect for boxing's speed and aggressive application.

There is no secret in hands speed. First have boxing fist form and technique, make sure it obey the principle of economy of motion (linear), and strike as fast you can. You get faster by properly
striking fast (period).

"Are there excercises consistantly practiced in Wing Chun that over time develop this to a high level/and/or relaxation in the shoulders to generate this?" Yes... Punching correctly as fast as possible, and making sure it reaches it target. It is not about throwing 1000 of vertical punches, but learning how to do it properly. By its structure alone: a Boxer's Jab or a wing chuner's punch is fast.

"I have a hunch there are other things that are used for this development as well." Sure there are other supplemental training for speed. I have to keep this secret tho'. You go to Duncan Leung's website and he has an article about how Yip Man taught him about speed.

[Phenix]

I thought Wing Chun is using slow hand to beat the fast hand, No?

[tiger_1]

from my oppinion for most great speed must have first preparation and work front in your brain , from onther side road of chain punches dnt have anny conection with great speed , but all concept of traning in wing chun like :some group of muscu. or in chain punch work only 2 muscul group like : latsimus and bitseps - friendly tiger_1:cool:

[45degree fist]

From my experience I see wing chuns sensitivity on a bridge to give the illusion of greater hand speed.

we train specific tools over and over again so that our body recognizes the stimuli and reacts appropriatley without any apparent thought.


Blindfolded Chi Sao ( gives thumbs up to crowd) is da bomb.:D

[Bob8]

> I thought Wing Chun is using slow hand to beat the fast hand, > No?

Agreed. The fastest man I've ever encountered,
never really moved... ;-)

[Keng Geng]

Timing.

[Golden Arms]

Excellent responses..much better than I was even hoping for..Thanks to you all. I was wondering if it followed the same or similar path to how we develop this in Hung Gar (and no, Hung gar is not always slow..heheh) Thanks again!

[WingTsun20]

WingTsun masters can punch 13 times a second....
But.......

When you strike in WingTsun you hit with accuracy. When you hit the human body it tenses. So in wingtsun you hit the body as it untenses!

[anerlich]

"Wing Tsun masters can hit 13 times a second"

Ah the most hotly contested statistic since 90% of streetfights hitting the ground ... the Speed Man claims up to 16 ...


"When you hit the human body it tenses. so in WingTsun you hit the body as it untenses!"

Actually, the sensible response to impact is to relax and move with the force. If you tense, you hold your tissues in organs in place, so they are like sitting ducks and will absorb the entire force of the punch.

If you exhale and relax when hit (which will happen occasionally even if you do Wing Tsun) your tissues and organs can move around the incoming force, and absorb far more incoming force.

So, assuming they can actually hit me and I have no other choice, I'm quite happy for WingTsun guys to hit me while I'm "untensing".

[WCis4me]

WingTsun masters can punch 13 times a second....

William Cheung was timed slower at Harvard and it was a record..........
"It was at the Harvard University, Boston, in 1984 that Grandmaster Cheung set the world speed punching record of 8.3 punches per second ."

I have seen him personally and MANY others, and while I have seen some VERY FAST WC practictioners/masters, he is still the fastest I have seen.

With regards to boxers punching faster I have to disagree. I have watched ALOT of boxing and have seen MANY WC people.
I can see the boxers punches I can't see many of the WC punches. However, there are exceptions to every rule. The other day I was watching a title fight (For welterweight)with Zab Judah and Cory Spinks. Zab's punches were LIGHTNING fast. Mind you his father trained in WC and trained his son as well. He lost the fight but the speed of his punches were IMPRESSIVE. I was amazed about the speed considering he was a boxer and was then informed he trained in WC. I believe it was that training that greatly attributed to his speed.

[yuanfen]

That wasa good fight with Corey Spinks- really close to a draw.
I hope that zab can still geta rematch with the Russ/Aussie
Costa Tzyu(sp?). The rematch keeps/kept getting postponed with
Costa's injury. Zab had knocked costa down but later Zab went down.

The referee (unfairly IMO) didnt finish the count and stopped the fight. Zab was not groggy-but the knockdown wasa perfect example of interrupted signals to the knees.

In the Corey fight Corey was knocked down just before the end of the 12 round fight. Both fighters have fighting fathers---the elder spinks brother and Yoel Judah...both are southpaws-resulting in quite different details of motion. But Cory had considerable reach advantage-and knew how to use it-making it a little difficult for the hard hitting and fast Zab to move past the jab even though Zab was faster.

Not relevant but still-if memory serves--- Zab is Jewish-not that common among Afro Americans.

It was fun hearing the great Jones mis-predicting the outcome of both the Zab and the Klitchko fights because of his biases for two of the fighters.

Next weekend should result in quite a fight between giants- the ex South African southpaw Corey Sanders versus Vitali Klitchko.
Vitali is much taller. Corey can be up/down in motivation but he already has knocked down Vitali's younger brother Vladimir. Cory has a great short left hand inside punch.

Both Klitchko brothers BTW have won kickboxing matches in their earlier career. The older was a kick boxing champion-no money in kickboxing or in mma-atleat in the past- atleast money for the actual fighters rather than just the promoters.

[anerlich]

Correct spelling is Kostya Tszyu.

No disrespect intended, only clarification.

[yuanfen]

Thanks Andrew. I forgot the spelling. I met him in Phoenix and was at ringside when he fought an over the hill Chavez. His dad was here too.No disrespect for the fighter here either. I respect anyone who gets into a ring for boxing, wrestling or mma..
Joy

[WCis4me]

Hi Yuanfen,

The referee (unfairly IMO) didnt finish the count and stopped the fight. Zab was not groggy-but the knockdown wasa perfect example of interrupted signals to the knees.
If you are referring to the Spinks fight, I questioned the call on that knockdown as well. At first, to me anyhow, It looked more like a slip. However, when they did the replay, it was clear it was a fair and decent strike on the part of Spinks that made it happen. I agree that it was a good fight though. One of the better ones that I have seen for a bit.

Not relevant but still-if memory serves--- Zab is Jewish-not that common among Afro Americans.
You are correct. They are Jewish. His dad trained Phil Redmond in kickboxing. Led him to success in his full contact bouts.

Did you see the fight with that HUGE russian guy. Holy cow the guy was a giant compared to his opponent (names escape me right now). Size didn't help him win though. That was a pretty good fight as well.

My dad was a boxer, I love it.

Sorry, I'm rambling, didn't mean to go off topic. Back to Wing Chun

Take care,
Vicky

[yuanfen]

Vicky-

I was referring to the referee stopping the Judah-Tszyu fight before the 10 count was over.

Wladimir Klitschko is 6'6" and outweighed Lamon Brewster by around 30 pounds. Given the reach different the Ukrainian was ahaed but Lamon Brewster is atough guy- I dont think he has evr been down even in losing in the past. Brewster was determined and finally fogured out that Wladimir wasa sucker for short lefts...
and knocked him out.

Wladimir's older bro Vitali gave Lennox Lewis a hard time but lost on very bad cuts. Vitali is 6'9" and even heavier and stronger than Wladimir and can kick too. Cory Sanders has his work cut out for him. Much depends on whther Cory keeps his head. he has already knocked out Vitali but Wladimir is the tougher bro.

After the passing or retirement fo some great trainers Detroit (Phil's town)Kronk's Emmanuel Steward is training both Klitschko bros. He wasnt able to make Wladimir more fluid than the common "European" styles. he helped Lewis in the past. Remains to be seen whther he can help Vitali- who has a PHD in Excercise
Science or PE! Sanders is a smart but often uneven southpaw witha powerful short left. Southpaws when they are on can be troublesome-because of different angles.

I know it's not wing chun but I am discussing lines and angles-
a wing chun specialty using a different platform and wheels.

Sorry for any typos. Just came froma wake.

Joy

[Brodie Bortigno]

Punching becomes fast because if you drill the path the punch or action takes over and over again under varying conditions and remain relaxed then you will suprise yourself with the speed of your punches. That and Ving Tsun attacks more or less flow from one to the other with (if possible) as little break between as possible; this may create an enhanced illusion of speed.

[wentwest]

I shot a documentary film about women in boxing a number of years ago, and while waiting to film one of the women's bouts, I watched Zabdiel Judah knock out a young man in the first round of his fight. This was around '96 - '98 I believe. He already was developing amazing speed and power then.