Adrenal responses and lifting cars

[IronFist]

Someone mentioned in another thread that those mommies who lift cars off of their kids in those situations often suffer from torn muscles and ligaments and stuff. Is that true? I didn't know that was a result!

Also, are there any documented cases of this happening? We've all heard stories, but you know... any caught on camera or anything?

[mickey]

Hi Ironfist,

My sister told me the story of the woman who lifted the car off her loved one when I was very young. She was the only one who told me that the woman had to be hospitalized due to internal injuries; most of the time I have only heard the first half of the story. The adrenal response is that strong. I have learned through my own experiences that the other organs have similar reserves.


mickey

[IronFist]

Originally posted by mickey
I have learned through my own experiences that the other organs have similar reserves.

Please elaborate :)

[mickey]

Hi Ironfist,

It is nothing surreal.

I actually learned this when I was working excessively long hours accompanied by minimal rest. I noticed that my body was actually drawing energy from organs at various points in time to keep the body going. It was a very strange experience, yet very insightful to the possibilities of the human body under stress. Maybe that was the lesson I was supposed to learn.

Even the Five Elements Theory of Chinese medicine acknowledges the energies of the various organs.

mickey

[Losttrak]

I dont know any people offhand who have done something like this but I have read alot of documentaries on it. Its real. The human body is an amazing thing. As far as what happened with the torn ligaments... heavy lifting injuries typically cause the ripping of connective tissues.

You ever watch documentaries on the builders of the pyramids? The workers could be easily identified by the damage the heavy lifting had had on their bones (ex. the connective tissues ripping off the bone). I think though the body is capable of channeling such power under deep emotional duress, the average body is incapable of withstanding the damage. Maybe an experienced powerlifter might come away reasonably unscathed. Yet, I have to wonder. What would happen if these massive body builders were infused with the same adrenaline rush as these housewives, etc? I'll say this... I dont think I ever heard of any man doing such amazing feats. Perhaps it is a chemical reaction that can only be performed by females? Perhaps the man is incapable of reaching such emotional extremes to activate the glands that hyper-produce this quantity of adrenaline? Who knows.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by mickey
I noticed that my body was actually drawing energy from organs at various points in time to keep the body going. It was a very strange experience, yet very insightful to the possibilities of the human body under stress.


How do you know?

[mickey]

Hi Ironfist,

I could actually feel it. The sensitivity comes from the meditative practices that I have been doing over the years. Usually, when one refers to the dantien, they are referring to a point 2-3 inches under the navel. What happened was that I experienced my liver as a dantien point, my heart as a dantien point, etc. I felt the energy radiating outward from each organ. We used tend to use only one kidney; well during that period of time I felt the other one at work. It was a great lesson about the human potential.

mickey

[mickey]

Ironfist,

Your questions suggest that you are at the very beginning of a long and enjoyable road in internal training and development. I would suggest, again, that you explore the world of yoga. I would also suggest that you get a copy of Mantak Chia's Awakening the Healing Energy Through the Tao.

It's going to be a fun trip.

mickey

[mickey]

Re: Adrenal Response

The conscoius use of the adrenal response forms the foundation of Mike Dayton's "Chi Mind Control." I managed to get a copy of the manual. When I read it and compared it to my aforementioned experiences, I realized there was much left to explore.

mickey

[mickey]

Clarification,

There was much territory left unexplored with "Chi Mind Control"

mickey

[Vash]

mickey,

are those texts which you cited for self-healing, mayhap?

I've got this pesky chest injury that just refuses to stop bothering me.

ps: it looks like that I have a minimum of two clients to train once I get healed up! yay!

Both are students at my dojo. One is a father in his 30's with an arthritic hip, and a little bit of extra weight, and the other is his son who's legs are EXTREMELY scrawny.
I'm gonna be an official trainer with a certification and working torso and clients and stuff like that! yay!

[mickey]

Hi Vash,

"Awakening the Healing Energy Through the Tao" is about opening the Microcosmis orbit. It is also known as the Small Heavenly Circle. I think it is a good starting point and I recommend it for informational purposes. Once you are ready to embark on that road, seek instruction. Mike Dayton's book champions the conscious control of the adrenl response. from that standpoint it is quite pioneering. Mike should have kept working with it. I think it would have evolved into a situation where "Western" psychological thought arrives "East": in a way far more advanced than Jung could ever envision.

Vash, try yoga. It does a body good.

mickey

[mickey]

Vash,

I realized that I did not quite answer your question. I would not recommend them for self healing. They do not offer that kind of information.

Still, yoga can help.

mickey

[mickey]

Vash,

I scoured through my bookcase for an appropriate title that may help you:

Bio-Etheric Healing by Trudy Lanitis

This identifies and explains the role of the Etheric body. It is the blueprint for the physical body and can be accessed for healing. I can do this but I have yet to be accomplished at it.

mickey

[Ford Prefect]

Most likely untrue. Refer to absolute strength and strength deficit. ;)

[blooming lotus]

WTF do you know about internal art and qi???? from the nature of your trolling I'm going out on limb on saying D*CK


pls see nueral override and "super natural power!!"

( and pls..before you tell me I'm mad..tell it to dudes who I just saw smash iron rods over their head)

cheers

[Serpent]

:rolleyes:

[Ford Prefect]

Absolute strength: The absolute amount of force your muscles are capable of producing.

Maximal Strength: The amount of force your muscles can produce voluntarily.

Strength Defecit: The discrepency between the two.

The average woman with her lean muscle mass most likely doesn't even have the potential to lift a car. Adrenaline doesn't give you strength. It only breaks down the limits imposed by your CNS (Central Nervous System) to lessen or completely remove your strength deficit.

The effects of adrenaline on an elite lifter's strength is even less because through years of training, he has lessened his strength deficit and is using a much larger percentage of his absolute strength than a normal man.

[Merryprankster]

( and pls..before you tell me I'm mad..tell it to dudes who I just saw smash iron rods over their head)

on a list of things that aren't impressive, only really fat people ranks below this.

even if were impressive, it has **** all to do with strength.

ironfist--i saw a vid clip, many years ago, of a man who lifted a van off his wife. he blew out his back, his knees and got a hernia. i think that's about par for the course.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


on a list of things that aren't impressive, only really fat people ranks below this.




So what are you tryin to say huh?
Us fat people are like second class citizens?
U betta watch u mouf or me and my fat brethren will grab boxes of donuts and lay on you ground huggers until we're ready for brunch.
:p

[Merryprankster]

why do that if you could just beat my ass standing.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
ironfist--i saw a vid clip, many years ago, of a man who lifted a van off his wife. he blew out his back, his knees and got a hernia. i think that's about par for the course.

Wow! Was it a good quality video?

I wonder what happens in a situation like that. Do you just instinctively know "I'm gonna go lift up this van?" I mean... who thinks they can actually lift a car enough to even try?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Absolute strength: The absolute amount of force your muscles are capable of producing.

Maximal Strength: The amount of force your muscles can produce voluntarily.

Strength Defecit: The discrepency between the two.

The average woman with her lean muscle mass most likely doesn't even have the potential to lift a car. Adrenaline doesn't give you strength. It only breaks down the limits imposed by your CNS (Central Nervous System) to lessen or completely remove your strength deficit.

The effects of adrenaline on an elite lifter's strength is even less because through years of training, he has lessened his strength deficit and is using a much larger percentage of his absolute strength than a normal man.




so what are you all saying here???? that internal art and strength relating to chi or even fajing is a figment of my imagination......I dont even need you to understand....most westerners dont

cheers

[Merryprankster]

ironfist,

i think it was on that's incredible or something, so it was ok. years ago....


so what are you all saying here???? that internal art and strength relating to chi or even fajing is a figment of my imagination......I dont even need you to understand....most westerners dont

no. we're saying that there is a very clear biological explanation for the lifting of cars thing, that has been demonstrated time and again, which has absolutely nothing to do with what you are talking about. this is quite a distinction.

it's not even an adrenaline issue, per se. PCP will do the same thing.

Ford is so correct the correct says it has the Ford.

absolute strength in any muscle group and then overall can be fairly accurately estimated for an individual (it would involve a biopsy at different major muscle groups, some calculations involving cross-sectional areas, etc). but maximal strength is what you can do with your body's safety mechanisms in place. Your body protects itself from your muscular force by imposing limits--it knows you can cause some serious damage to yourself.

Remove the safety and it's a lot more powerful. People on PCP don't get "stronger" so they can put their hand through a car hood--they just don't have anything holding them back. Of course, they break their hands, wrists, forearms in the process. people who lift overturned cars pay the price for having their safety switched off.

people who have trained a lot to lift really heavy things have less difference between their "safety" strength and their absolute strength, because their body's bio-feedback mechanisms don't scream "danger" as quickly--their connective tissue and organs can handle it all thanks to adaptation to that type of work.

[MasterKiller]

This is interesting stuff.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
on a list of things that aren't impressive, only really fat people ranks below this.

I've been trying to keep out of another BL-bashing thread, but **** that's funny! ROFLMAO! Nice one MP :D.

[Merryprankster]

well, it's not really about bl bashing. more of a statement of fact.

any appropriately hard steel, of suitable length will break like that.

generally speaking harder the metal, the more brittle it is - it has less give.

it's an issue of leverage and momentum.

so it's a parlor trick, like laying on a bed of nails or the bowl that can't be removed from the stomach. it takes only a modicum of practice to be able to do it.

[MasterKiller]

http://exn.ca/Stories/2003/06/09/51.asp

Shaolin qigong tricks explained by the discovery channel.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I gave Ford's explanations much thought before responding. I completely disagree; especially with his example if the elite weightlifter. Under a high stress (adrenaline inducing) situation, that person should be that much stronger.

Ford's analysis does not explain a six year old's ability to keep an injection needle from piercing through his skin.

mickey

[IronFist]

So how do you keep the bowl stuck to your stomach?

And of course, what fighting applications does that have?

[mickey]

There definitely is a connection here. The adrenals are not interpreted separately from the kidneys in Chinese medicine. In some of the Chinese styles that developed during times of war (developed to accelerate skills in a short period of time) the chi of the kidneys were tapped like a faucet through various internal exercises. The five element method of internal development and other meditation practices, requiring a protracted period of training, were neglected.

mickey

[mickey]

Those internal practices for the short cut were classified under wai kung.

mickey

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by mickey
Greetings,

I gave Ford's explanations much thought before responding. I completely disagree; especially with his example if the elite weightlifter. Under a high stress (adrenaline inducing) situation, that person should be that much stronger.

Ford's analysis does not explain a six year old's ability to keep an injection needle from piercing through his skin.

mickey

I think that can be explained....when I saw the wheel of life tour, I noticed that when they did the spear balancing tricks / stunts that the points ( un-noticable to the untrained eye ) were places that can a. be protected with correct diaphram control and B. are dim mak free zones ( ie: not as easily suseptible to damage )

as for the pcp and resulting strength...are you trying to tell us here that this is not a nueralogical reaction.....?????

It still comes from volition volumised through the drug-induced beleif they can do whatever display of stregth you're seeing....like dutch courage..but it's still all nueral - muscular and it all comes back to volition ......


and qi....

[mickey]

Hi blooming lotus,

I've got news for you(smiling). I was that six year old. And that was long before I ever heard of Iron Shirt, Golden Bell, Achilles, or Fong Si Yu.

mickey

[blooming lotus]

ok...( smiling also)


but ...ahhh........the rest of your point???? like phsiologically or in western terms????

[mickey]

Hi,

My point is that Ford's explanation does not cover everything that can occur as a result of the adrenal response. Therefore it is not valid.

mickey

[mickey]

to continue:

I only share my experiences to help people where I can. That was my initial purpose for joining this forum. I really did not want to talk about the needle incident because I thought that I had said enough to encourage people to look a little deeper than the surface. And you know what? Mentioning it still may not help that.

mickey

[blooming lotus]

people will find internal practice and be ready to accept it intellectually and emotionally when they are......they'll find it or they won't...arguing is fruitless

[Serpent]

My god, bl has found a kindred spirit in mickey.

Or has she made another id so that at least one person will agree with her?

[blooming lotus]

you look forwad to chatting with me right...

lol.....

thx for following me around the boards, but I'm kinda busy at the moment....


I'm flattered though....really

compliment accepted ;)

[Ford Prefect]

KKM?

[Merryprankster]

pcp does not induce any neuromuscular--or, indeed, neurological response. it is classified as a disassociative. it removes the ability of your mind to connect cause and effect. you may attempt to call this "neurological reaction," but that would completely inaccurate, as pcp has no effect on the nerves - it does not cause them to do anything biologically different. it only removes awareness of the world. consequently, your body's inhibitions disappear - hence the "increased strength," which is not an increase at all. in mechanical terms, you've haven't souped up the engine, you've just removed the restrictor plate from the accelerator. so no - there is no "increase in strength." your body is no more capable than it ever was, you're just taking the safety off. as far as volition, i would venture to say there is less...there is a significant difference between not believing you can't do something and believe you can.

mickey is wrong about ford's explanation. it is completely adequate for the issue at hand. there are a host of other adrenal responses; pupil dilation, increased heart rate, raise in blood pressure, constriction of blood vessels, increased breathing, increased muscle tension, reduction of peripheral vision....

however, the question is "how do they get 'increased strength?' the answer is, they don't. if your body were an engine, and it put out 90 hp at max load, adrenaline would simply allow you to tap in to all 90 hp. however, it doesn't create a 300 hp engine. there is NO increase in your strength.


Under a high stress (adrenaline inducing) situation, that person should be that much stronger.

see above. the difference is that instead of a 90 hp engine, you're STARTING with a 200 hp one. so of course they are stronger. not only that, but it's a high performance one; the difference between what they are capable of doing with a restrictor plate in place might be only 10 hp, because it's designed with performance - squeezing every ounce of oomph out of it already - in mind adrenaline only maximizes your potential and these guys train practically to that all the time anyway - there's not much reserve to call on because they can already tap into most of what they have. conversely, the normal person is the run of the mill 90 hp - and they might only be optimized for say 70 hp, so they get 20 hp out of the deal.

In other words, as ford pointed out, the deficit is greater for the normal person, but the elite athlete can output more. further, the elite athlete is less likely to injure themselves - 10 hp for that guy only represents about 5% over the redline - whereas 20 hp is nearly 35% over the redline for the less in shape person....and as everybody knows, the more you blow by specs, the greater chance of breakdown.

don't like engines? use beer glasses or anything with a failure limit...

Once again, i'm not suggesting that chi doesn't exist, that's not really the point here; i'm showing that you don't need it to explain this as there is a biofeedback mechanism, well known and understood, which handles this already.

[Merryprankster]

Iron,

The bowl thing is suction, pure and simple. They use their abs to push air out of the bowl, and it sticks to their belly. Notice that they always get somebody to pull the bowl from the end? If that guy stuck his finger between the bowl and the abs, it would come right off because the seal is broken.

I once had some VERY credulous individual tell me that the reason you can't do that is because it interrupts the chi flow. Ummm... no, it lets air into the bowl, equalizes the pressure and the bowl falls off.

Every single one of the monk's demonstrations can be explained by simple physics. every one. this doesn't disprove chi, but it certainly says we don't need it to understand these demonstrations.

now, you can complicate these tricks by claiming chi if you like, but then, i can argue that they are the result of intelligent microscopic life forms that like monks and help hold the bowl in place....

[Merryprankster]

all i can say is dp/pp.

[Nick Forrer]

Hi MP

I always wondered why it is that so called demonstrations of chi/iron shirt involve having bricks/poles smashed over parts of your body which are naturally tough and can be toughened further (like the skull/arms/torso) and never over the face (say). Im pretty sure that If I were to smash a monk in the face with a brick his nose would break.

[Vash]

MP and FP have taken the correct to a deserted locale, run a train on it, and forced it to star in a series of high-budget posts.

[IronFist]

What's dp/pp?

What's KKM?

[Merryprankster]

pp is post pics.

dp is the greatest expression of love a man can give to a woman.

KKM is a notorious internet, martial arts troll from way back, KingKnightMare. He now goes by Masterkiller.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
KKM is a notorious internet, martial arts troll from way back, KingKnightMare. He now goes by Masterkiller. Don't hate the player. St00 is a better Ralek than you.

[mickey]

Hello Merryprankster and Greetings,

I am still waiting for an explanation for the needle incident. Your nor Ford's explanation does not cover it. If the explanation you both put forth is valid, then it should address all types of adrenaline induced situations.

mickey

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

dp is the greatest expression of love a man can give to a woman.


:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Absolute strength: The absolute amount of force your muscles are capable of producing.

Maximal Strength: The amount of force your muscles can produce voluntarily.

Strength Defecit: The discrepency between the two.

The average woman with her lean muscle mass most likely doesn't even have the potential to lift a car. Adrenaline doesn't give you strength. It only breaks down the limits imposed by your CNS (Central Nervous System) to lessen or completely remove your strength deficit.

The effects of adrenaline on an elite lifter's strength is even less because through years of training, he has lessened his strength deficit and is using a much larger percentage of his absolute strength than a normal man.

this has always intrigued me. It seems like there should be a way to voluntarily produce maximal strength...there's not though.

[Merryprankster]

I am still waiting for an explanation for the needle incident. Your nor Ford's explanation does not cover it. If the explanation you both put forth is valid, then it should address all types of adrenaline induced situations.

hello, and our explanation is more than adequate. as i pointed out, adrenaline rush causes peripheral vision loss. however, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand either; namely the strength issue. one can study, articulate and explain the pain killing properties of cocaine, which works through one pathway, without discussing it's rather interesting dopamine effects in the brain. i can adequately express methamphetamine's stimulant effects, without discussing its anticholinergic properties. i can describe opiates' painkilling effects without delving inro their anti-tussive properties, etc. hormones and drugs have different effects on different systems. re: neuromuscular biofeedback, adrenaline can shut down the safety. it's pretty simple.

consequently, i don't have to explain your needle incident. it's irrelevant to the subject at hand. the effects of adrenaline on every system is not at issue - only that it can explain in a verifiable way, the issue of "increased" strength. if the initial posit had been "Can we find an endocrine reason for my experiences with needles," then you'd have a point. this was not the case.

if you would like to talk about that instead, we could do that.

[blooming lotus]

:rolleyes:

[mickey]

Thank you for getting back to me Merryprankster,

The incident with the needle as a strength related issue. It involved muscles and adrenaline. If your explanation cannot cover that then, and this is what I am really trying to get at, there is a deficit in Western medicine in what is really going on. When you use the terms maximal and absolute strength, you are dealing with limits. It does not consider possibilities that go beyond those limits.

mickey

[mickey]

Merryprankster,

A scenario for you:

Given: Subjects absolute strength is 800 pounds.

Subject's loved on is overrun by a 1100 pound car and is trapped under it.

Subject is able to lift the car.

Question: What accounts for the difference?

mickey

[mickey]

I forgot to add:

While subject is lifting car, some mad scientist is trying to take a blod sample, but the freakin' needle can't penetrate the skin of subject.

mickey

[blooming lotus]

lol

[Merryprankster]

mickey,

the difference is the difference between maximal and absolute strength.

if the subject's absolute strength is 800 lbs, then nothing is going to get that person to lift that car. that is all they are capable of lifting un-aided.

if the person's maximal strength is 800 lbs, then they may be able to lift that car.

maximal strength is what you can tap into under normal cicumstances. there is a biofeedback mechanism in the body that inhibits muscular contraction because the full force of your exertions would damage your body. it's a safety mechanism. adrenaline can overcome this mechanism, allowing you to use -literally- all your strength. however, that's all you've got, and it frequently results in joint and organ damage. that is your absolute strength.

absolute strength may be 1200 lbs and that car comes off, however your maximal strength may be 800 lbs.

BUT, as i said before if your absolute strength is 800 lbs, that car is not coming off unaided, no matter how much adrenaline goes through your system.


The incident with the needle as a strength related issue. It involved muscles and adrenaline.

no offense, but, how do you know? the effect may have been unrelated. correlation is not causation.

as far as the "deficit in western knowledge" that would apply to only the needle. adrenaline's effects on strength and the mechanism of action are well understood...

which brings us back to square one: the explanation is more than adequate for the subject at hand, regardless of your needle issue.

[IronFist]

Alright guys I'm not that knowledgable about this other than having a basic knowledge of the whole absolute strength thing (like what we're discussing here).

So is it correct to say that everyone's absolute strength is genetically determined from birth?

It would be interesting to see the changes (if any) in absolute strength as a person develops. Like in a 5 year old vs that same person when he's 10, 15, 20, 25, etc.

Of course, that'd be hard to test without hurting the person.

It kinda sucks tho how you're kinda limited by your genes. Just like it also sucks when you lift weights for a year to be able to bench 225 once, and some other guy goes to the gym and on his first day he gets a few reps with it. :D

[Merryprankster]

iron.

nope. you can change your absolute strength by lifting (or not lifting).

you can't change your genetic potential - in other words, you can't change your "maximum absolute strength." there comes a point where no matter how many steroids you take, protein you ingest etc, you just cant make the machine "mo' better."

my absolute strength as a shotputter was quite different from now, for instance, as i had more muscle mass; i was designed for bigger pushes, pulls and heavier loads- the engine was different then. this makes perfect sense when you remember that the strength of any fiber bundle is proportional to its cross-sectional area.

make sense?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
iron.

nope. you can change your absolute strength by lifting (or not lifting).

you can't change your genetic potential - in other words, you can't change your "maximum absolute strength." there comes a point where no matter how many steroids you take, protein you ingest etc, you just cant make the machine "mo' better."

my absolute strength as a shotputter was quite different from now, for instance, as i had more muscle mass; i was designed for bigger pushes, pulls and heavier loads- the engine was different then. this makes perfect sense when you remember that the strength of any fiber bundle is proportional to its cross-sectional area.

make sense?

No.

So you're saying that you CAN change your absolute strength? Ford's definition was "Absolute strength: The absolute amount of force your muscles are capable of producing," which made it sound like you can't change it no matter what. That's why a Powerlifter is closer to his absolute strength than a non-lifter.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but your post sounds like you say it's possible to change your absolute strength.

Using the car engine analogy that was given earlier, say a person's absolute strength is 300hp. But he never lifts weights and so his maximal strength is only 50hp. Then for 5 years he becomes a bodybuilder, and gets his maximal strength up to 180hp. Then for 15 years he does powerlifting and gets his maximal strength up to 250hp. Isn't his absolute strength still 300hp, regardless of muscle size, weight, etc?

[Merryprankster]

Yes you can change your absolute strength, by increasing your muscle mass! (and maybe other things)

you're confusing genetic potential with absolute strength, at least as i understand it.

my 199 lbs shotputter body was a 300hp engine. i might have been able to tap into 260 hp of that.

my current 185 lbs body is maybe a 250 hp engine, i might be able to tap into 225 hp of that or something. exact numbers aren't important.

perhaps my genetic potential is only 350 hp.

perhaps if i don't work out at all and waste away, i'm only a 150hp couch potato, with the ability to tap in to 75 hp

regardless, at those points in time, no amount of adrenaline is going to put me over the 300, 250, 350 or 150 hp limits.

just like a car, you can replace or rebuild the engine to improve overall power delivery---but no amount of gas is going to get more than that absolute load, as long as you are dealing with THAT engine. adrenaline doesn't change the engine - it just takes out the restrictor plates so you can run over the redline.

your genetic potential is kinda like the limits of space under the hood, chassis, etc- you just can't pack more engine in there, it won't fit, ever.

to sum up:

genetic potential- what you CAN reach in a perfect world.

absolute strength - 100% muscular effort at any given point in time

maximal strength - some percentage of your 100% muscular effort that you can call upon under "normal" circumstances (ie, at will, not under duress)

strength deficit - the difference between what you can call on normally, and the absolute amount you can generate at any given point in time.

when you are talking absolute, maximal strength, or strength deficit, you're talking snapshot in time. right now, today, at this moment (or the moment of observation). when you talk genetic potential, you're talking "no matter how hard you work, you'll never get past this."

now, this is how i understand these terms from my throwing days. maybe ford knows something i don't.

for the record, i think i'm done with this topic, no offense to anybody. i'm just tapped out for ways to explain it.

[mickey]

Hi Merryprankster,

While I understand what you are saying from the physical perspective, there are times when explanations in physical terms just will not do. Especially when other factors, like chi, can come into play.

I have enjoyed discussing the subject with you. and I really appreciate the fact that it did deteriorate into one of those "okay buddy, 3 o'clock-- we'll see then" scenarios.

Thank you for the time.

Peace,

mickey

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
iron.

nope. you can change your absolute strength by lifting (or not lifting).

you can't change your genetic potential -
\

whadda-loada-bull

qi is a totally different concept and over rides maximal strength and or any other "generic - disposition"

I wish I could make you understand because I know you have alot of potential...specially Iron

whaddaya say here???

[IronFist]

How does qi affect musclular strength? I thought all the qi people were all anti-tension.

[mickey]

"anti-tension"?

Ironfist,

Is this why you get out of Dodge City every time I mention something like yoga or meditation?

mickey

[IronFist]

^ Huh?

I just mean that all the taiji people and all the qigong people are all about "oh, you're using too much tension. Tension blocks qi flow."

So I'm just wondering how qi could be responsible for muscle contraction.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
qi is a totally different concept and over rides maximal strength and or any other "generic - disposition"

I've avoided getting into this because I don't know enough about qigong to argue against it. But, if your argument was hypothetically true BL/mickey, then can you provide evidence? Are there any scientific papers written to support it? Why aren't the strongest people in the world qigong practitioners?

I mean, if the argument were true, then why aren't world class athletes all qigong practitioners? Like Olympic lifters this year? If it were true, there would be international fame in the scientific community and/or lots of money to be made in the athletic community.

Also, no offence mickey/BL, but if you want people to listen to your argument, you'll have to learn to create an effective argument in clear English.

Lastly, mickey, can we have more about your needle story? I'd like to know what happened. Did the needle break? How do you know that "qi" had anything to do with the shot not working? Could it have been the case that you just flexed your muscles? I know that makes it difficult to find veins (but not insert needles into the skin) - but how did your "qi" make it harder? Did the needle penetrate the skin at all? Where was the shot? Because if it was in the crook of the elbow, there's only skin then the venal wall. No muscle between the skin and vein.

[blooming lotus]

this computer's pi*sing me off....couldn't read the whole of the last post but I think the recorded proof relating to qigong practitioners etc is greatly philosophical on there part...

there are however recorded accounts of dudes pulling buses with their ***** for God's sake...you cant tell me that's unimpressive stregth wise, nor something that most people can do

Iron..I don't think qi has so much to with muscle contraction as the power behind it.....

dong ma??? d'you understand??? ..........

without that power, non of your moverments would be posible, so I guess there is a certain amount of involuntary use of qi, even in people who don't even know it exists....

I think of qi as the "other oxygen", and this helps???

Ps..just opened the emei video...cheering

:D

[IronFist]

Man, I wonder what would happen if you gave qigong practicioners steroids.

[blooming lotus]

hey dude ..............:p

It sounds like a funny question or statement?? .but because they are chemical and foreign, they would comprimise a practioners qi and leave weaker....crazy sh*t right :D

becomming clearer?????

hey, just found a local taiji to teach me everyday...for free :D :D :D ......but that's Zhengzhou for ya .......stay posted and I'll be happy to share what I learn ;)

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
there are however recorded accounts of dudes pulling buses with their ***** for God's sake...you cant tell me that's unimpressive stregth wise, nor something that most people can do

What's *****? Dicks? Well, then it's not strength (well, not of their dick anyway). Without knowing (or wanting to :eek: :D), I would guess that they have strengthened the skin on their dicks and the connective tissue and muscle inside to a certain tensile strength through various repetitive training methods (e.g. hanging heavy objects from it, vigorous massage, application of jow :eek: ). That tensile strength would be then greater than the force required to move a bus i.e. their dicks wouldn't snap when they pulled the bus. The pulling of the bus, though, would be from their legs as they walked backwards away from the bus. If, on the other hand, they could stand still and pull the bus along, then I would be extremely impressed :D.

P.S. it's more a momentum thing. There would be a certain minimum force required to get the bus moving. It may not be so much (but then it may). E.g. I'd rather do this on a bus in neutral than a small hatchback in gear. Get the bus moving and keep applying a surplus of force above that required to overcome inertia and bob's your uncle. I would think the hardest part would be walking backwards. In any case, it would be leg muscles, not dick muscles and in that case pulling a bus is impressive, although lots of people could do it. The dick not snapping is interesting, but not impressive IMO.

[blooming lotus]

not impressive...mmm hmmmm...

lol....so you're happyto demonstrate yourseld then??

you know,I have you onignore, so when I click to read I miss half ofwhat you say...if I don't respond to what you've saidin right context, that'll be why


any way...explain away anything you like...if you're trying to find reasons to disprove somethong, more often than not you'll find them...( or something resembling....if you can't f*ck "em with fact...baffle em with bs) and no amount of chat from me will make a difference...so cheers and just stfu and enjoy your practice :D


or at minmium dude...find peace in it ;)

[mickey]

Hi Toby,

Strangely, your questions pretty much describe what happened. I was in such a state of fear that they had me in restraints. The shot was given in the crook of the arm. It did not penetrate; when the nurse applied more force the needle broke. The doctor seemed to realize what was going on. He stopped the nurse from trying to give a second shot. He covered my eyes with a paper towel and a few minutes later, after I had calmed down, gave me the shot-- I didn't see it coming. Boy, did I scream!

I spoke to my sister about this last month and she shared a similar incident when she was getting a shot in the buttocks as a child. Her buttocks were so tense that the needle bent. I guess it runs in the family.

mickey

[mickey]

Toby,

I had a feeling you would join in at some point, Toby.:)

Whenever I remember the event, and I do have a vivid memory, I feel my adrenals stirring. They were when I was writing about it a few moments ago.

Do I believe it has something to do with qi/chi? Most definitely.

mickey

[mickey]

Hey Toby!

I thought my English was pretty clear.

mickey

[Toby]

mickey, yeah, I wasn't being critical. Your English is fine, but I was comparing to e.g. MP's arguments. He is objective and logical. Easy to read and puts forward a clear argument. Same with Ford, 7*, etc.

Anyway, like I said before, there is no muscle between the skin and the vein in the crook of the elbow. So I don't see how you could stop the needle penetrating from muscular contraction. Also, skinny needles aren't very strong at all. What was the diameter of the needle? The e.g. insulin ones are very breakable if a force is applied tangentially to the direction of penetration. So a struggling kid could easily break it. OTOH, a blood sample needle is relatively large and would be difficult to break.

Only thing that contracting muscles does is makes the surface that the vein lies on hard, so it is difficult to "find" the vein since it tends to "roll" or move on the hard surface and is pushed away by the needle point. Of course, contraction of muscle makes no difference to the tension of the skin. You said that the needle didn't penetrate the skin. Are you (or BL) suggesting that "qi" make the skin tension increase as well?

[mickey]

Hi Toby,

I was about six years old at the time. It wasn't a thin one at all; yet, it wasn't one of those thick drainage types.

To answer your question about qi (aka the adrenal response) increasing the surface tension of the skin: YES! That was my experience. That was why I was questioning the validity of Ford's and MP's explanation; it (qi- adrenaline)doesn't simply act through muscle. I also shared with IronFist that organs other than the kidneys have that ability, that reserve of energy.

mickey

[mickey]

Toby,

Qi is a lot more than the adrenals. I was trying my best to keep it simple.

mickey

[Toby]

If skin tension was increased, there must've been some stretching. Where were the stretching forces being applied? Did your arms become bigger? I'm not entirely convinced that skin tension would increase the difficulty of penetration anyway. In fact, it should make it easier. Consider trying to pop a balloon with a pin. The more air in the balloon, the more susceptible to puncture. The less air, the more "give" before the balloon is penetrated.

If, OTOH, your skin became "harder", then you're proposing that you temporarily changed the material properties of your skin. Something I have an even harder time believing.

[mickey]

Toby,

I am having a hard time typing this because I am laughing so hard! You are too much!

There is one area that has not been given much study. That is the function(s) of the fascia. I believe that the adrenaline worked through the fascia and really fortified the area. Toby, I have given this experience more thought than I let on

For me it is not a mystery; yet, proving it is difficult.

mickey

[mickey]

To continue:

If you factor in the role the fascia could have played with the automobile incident-- it becomes credible.

In the world of power lifting, some of the lifters use compression suits to help maximize their lifts. The compression suits mimic one the roles of the fascia.

mickey

[Toby]

Originally posted by mickey
I am having a hard time typing this because I am laughing so hard!

Why?

AFAIK (and my knowledge is very limited), fascia connects the epidermis to the underlying tissue and bone. I.e. it runs normal (i.e. at 90&#176) to the skin. So how does this make the skin "stronger"? Does it pull the skin inwards? Push outwards?

Can you elaborate as to the role of the fascia that powerlifting suits mimic?

[mickey]

Toby,

This is new territory for me. I have been thinking on this for a few months.

One of the roles of the fascia is compression. When a muscle contracts the fascia compresses against it. When you look at the muscular shape of an athlete you are also observing the fascia contracting against the muscle.

I believe qi can travel through the fascia and can be stored there; and it is key to the Iron Body,Golden Bell disciplines, as well as other internal martial arts practices.

mickey

[mickey]

Toby,

If you are right about the fascia, I am going to have to go back to the drawing board. Disregard my posts about it.

I feel sick.

mickey

[mickey]

or,

I have to find the correct term to what I am referring to.

mickey

[mickey]

Hi Toby, I am back,

I had to lie in the dark for a few minutes to get my thoughts together.

There exists a sheath that is different from the skin that we see that covers the muscles. If you have ever pulled the skin off a chicken leg you will notice that the muscles do not fall off the bone; there is a thin, tough, transparent, membrane- like material holding the muscles in place. That material is what I am referring to. We have that.

If fascia is not the correct term, I am sorry.

mickey

[Toby]

OK, there are 2 types of fascia, superficial fascia and panniculus adiposus. The 2nd one is sometimes called deep fascia and sounds like what you are referring to. How does tensing the panniculus adiposus prevent a needle penetrating epidermis? Both the S.F. and P.A. are below the epidermis and the dermis.

[mickey]

Toby,

That I do not know. But I believe it. Right now that is my focus: to understand what it is all about.

I don't know if you are familiar to Iron Body practices. The higher levels of the discipline enabled the practitioner to take slices and stabs from weapons without damage. I think it is a lost art.

Apparently, Achilles had this ability as well. Some simply think it was just his armor. He received a "bathing" practice in the river Styxx. Fong Si Yu supposedly had this kind of body from similar "bathing" practices. And in both legends they had one weak point.

mickey

[mickey]

Toby,

Thank you for fleshing out my argument with your questions. If I could type faster, my argument would have been better. Posting here has a time limit and I struggle to get my point across before the time is up.

I'm going to try to get some sleep. If you have more questions it will be a while.

Take care,

mickey

[Toby]

Originally posted by mickey
I don't know if you are familiar to Iron Body practices. The higher levels of the discipline enabled the practitioner to take slices and stabs from weapons without damage. I think it is a lost art.

If it's lost, how are you going to learn it? Most I've seen is e.g. Indian people lying on a bed of nails, or Shaolin entertainment shows with "monks" lying on swords and bending spears with their throats. I guarantee, though, that if you attacked one of them with a sword or spear, their Iron Body won't protect them. It's a trick to a certain degree, although a lot of it is "mind over matter". Here's an example - I can get my sharpest kitchen knife and press the blade hard against my hand. Nothing. However, take the same knife with light pressure and slice with it, and my hand will open up. The difference is that knife blades work by slicing, not penetrating. I notice that the "monks" lie down on the swords very carefully.


Originally posted by mickey
Apparently, Achilles had this ability as well. Some simply think it was just his armor. He received a "bathing" practice in the river Styxx. Fong Si Yu supposedly had this kind of body from similar "bathing" practices. And in both legends they had one weak point.


You want to learn something that is based on legends? Dunno the Achilles story, but I do know what the River Styx is. Are you going to bathe there? Where is it? Going to dive right in or check with your toe first to see if it's safe?

Sleep well.

[mickey]

Toby,

I am not interested in reviving the practice. I am looking to understand the role(s) that the fascia plays in chi development.

Question: Do you know what that material is made of?

mickey

[dwid]

fascia

Definition from my anatomy book: "Compact layers of connective tissue that form a fibrous membrane. It invests the whole body, supporting and separating muscles and organs."

Nothing mystical about it. It's just connective tissue.

[Ford Prefect]

My god. I'm gone 3 days and this happens. lol!

[rubthebuddha]

ford -- it's good to read this stuff before you lift. all this perversion of knowledge is great for getting your blood pressure up. ;)

[Ford Prefect]

I just like to see people get good information, so they can make informed decisions based on their goals. It's sad to see disinformation thrown into the mix which could hamper somebody's potential.

[dwid]

Good information on anatomy and physiology is pretty easily obtainable. I think a lot of people kind of want to be ignorant, because these mystical ideas are more romantic. It's more fun to think fascia is made of pixy dust and can result in superhuman feats if properly stimulated than to accept the reality of the structure and function of the human body (amazing as it is) and accept the long slow grind of improving oneself.

[Ford Prefect]

I tend to agree.

[mickey]

Hi Guys,

Disinformation?

What transpired was a difference between Eastern and Western perspectives as to what caused a particular event.

Ford and others, I respect the knowledge that you present. I never got nasty about it (none of the participants did-- which I found refreshing) nor did I start pointing fingers of ignorance. Our perspectives are reflective of our experiences. I am not about to start knocking anyone for not understanding the perspective that I present.

Nevertheless, it was a very fun thread. I only wish that those members who joined in at the very end had participated in the discussion to begin with. Or, even better, kept their closing comments to themselves.

Respectfully,

mickey

[mickey]

By the way,

I was looking to find out what the fascia is on a molecular level.

mickey

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by dwid
Good information on anatomy and physiology is pretty easily obtainable. I think a lot of people kind of want to be ignorant, because these mystical ideas are more romantic.




I assume i may of those you'rereferring to...there's nothing mystical about it..it'solid science ..... are you sure you don't just mean more informed and deatiled




It's more fun to think fascia is made of pixy dust and can result in superhuman feats if properly stimulated than to accept the reality of the structure and function of the human body (amazing as it is) and accept the long slow grind of improving oneself.

now you're not even talking sense....if you are unaware of what isdemmed "supernatural abilities" tobe fair, I would liketo suggest you investigate braches qigong, especially falun gong,try it out,come back and give us your best gripe

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
...there's nothing mystical about it..it'solid science ...
No it's not. Otherwise there would be published material supporting your claims. Can you provide any links or titles?


Originally posted by mickey
I was looking to find out what the fascia is on a molecular level.
At a guess, some combination of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen molecules. Maybe some nitrogen.

[blooming lotus]

do you folks have any ida of how many hours anddays and months years I 'vespent doing my own searches, reading and study??? While half of you were out in clubs...I washome stiffing it out hard core into study....

this is time comnsuming and considering I don't even like half you, I'll just say that if you really want to know,you'll search and read andstudy for yourself

good luck with your journeys

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
do you folks have any ida of how many hours anddays and months years I 'vespent doing my own searches, reading and study??? While half of you were out in clubs...I washome stiffing it out hard core into study....

this is time comnsuming and considering I don't even like half you, I'll just say that if you really want to know,you'll search and read andstudy for yourself

good luck with your journeys
Once again, your standard cop out.

Still, falun gong - it's starting to become clear now where your delusions stem from.

[blooming lotus]

ignorance is studying to find out what I don't want to pratctice...well ok then

anyway I think I'm about to make your day

Serpes, you're right

there is nothing here for me. Forget that I took months of planning and daily sacrifices to pack up my whole life and move to China to dedicate my life to my art and my beliefs....have trained for up to 12 hrs a day for many years to the point of craziness, forget that I have stayed home training and studying like a trouper for yrs and yrs while my freinds were out partying and picking up hotties....dude, I 've worked my as* off, I come here and I am told by jerks like yourself that I have no business here....you wanna know why that's true????...Because alot of you cats aren't even interested in martial arts or it's real aspects and facets......not as a lifestyle, an intellectual persuit, or anything much more than a chick-picker-uper

enjoy your half life
and go to hell :D :D

shutting tfu and training

sincerely
BL
;)

[mickey]

Thank you Toby,

I still have work to do.

mickey

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
ignorance is studying to find out what I don't want to pratctice...well ok then

anyway I think I'm about to make your day

Serpes, you're right

there is nothing here for me. Forget that I took months of planning and daily sacrifices to pack up my whole life and move to China to dedicate my life to my art and my beliefs....have trained for up to 12 hrs a day for many years to the point of craziness, forget that I have stayed home training and studying like a trouper for yrs and yrs while my freinds were out partying and picking up hotties....dude, I 've worked my as* off, I come here and I am told by jerks like yourself that I have no business here....you wanna know why that's true????...Because alot of you cats aren't even interested in martial arts or it's real aspects and facets......not as a lifestyle, an intellectual persuit, or anything much more than a chick-picker-uper

enjoy your half life
and go to hell :D :D

shutting tfu and training

sincerely
BL
;)

You still don't get it do you. It doesn't matter how much training you tell us you've done. It's irrelevant even whether it's true or bullsh!t. What counts is the way you interact with people here and how you are prepared to debate and offer evidence of your opinions.

However, you repeatedly post stuff that just about 100% of other posters disagree with, then you tell them to read a book as you can't be bothered to explain it.

Hey, we've all read books. We all formulated opinions from experience and education and we're prepared to cite sources of our opinions.

You, on the other hand, simply spout steaming turds faster than a diahrettic camel and then back them up with claims like, "I have an IQ far in excess of yours and have trained for 50 years in a cave, so obviously I'm right."

Can you really not see the problem?

[dwid]

I was looking to find out what the fascia is on a molecular level.

I understood that, but by the tone of the question, you were clearly looking for a magic bullet, so to speak. Frankly, there is none. Fascia, on a molecular level, does not differ fundamentally from any other tissue in the body.

[Ford Prefect]

Sorry Mickey. We're talking about well-studied and well-understood biological functions of the human body. They have been published in many peer-reviewed medical journals, so that the tests and experiements could be reproduced and verified by doctors and scientists the world around. After they have been throuroughly tested and verified by many people from many countries with no connection to each other but biological science, then they will be accepted. That's how the "western" method works.

It doesn't say "I had this experience when I was 6, so you all have no idea what I'm talking about." If you can't provide easily testable proof, then you will be ignored.

[blooming lotus]

what d'you want ??? my freakin CV????

do you not undrstand???....my body and my experience tells a different story to what the majority of you are preaching... I feel like you are full of sh*t and unknowledgable...and don't practice anthing close to ma as it should be, was and is for anyone except p/t hobbiests....

this is my life..............


there's more to ma than big muscles( like sports pyschology and that lone warrior mentality ..............clinging to mac D's burgers, and your spouses and your bullsh*t night outs when I'm home training and studying mao).....something so many folks here just refuse to let go of..I've seen your bodies and I've read your regimes and your profiles........

so I'm a radical thinker, and have non-orthidox methods......and your av.joe lifestyle isn't my bag....so i don't interact as though it is.........I also think that most of you are seriously immature and have alot of psychological and emotion developement to do before I would even consider taking you seriously.......

sorry dude...I think you 're a wa*k..........

no judgement...just wouldn't wanna be ya


see this is silly...and I've already unsubscribed from allthreads...so live and let live ha

peace out dude :cool:

[Ford Prefect]

Yes. We are all immature and you are enlightenned. That is why you call names, swear, attack people rather than logically rebutting their arguments, put yourself on a pedistal, and use street slang like "peeps" & "peace out dude" despite your high IQ. :rolleyes:

Provide some verifiable proof. That's all you need to do. What we are saying here can be looked up in any medical text on the endocrine system or acute stress response. Any studies you wish to cite or ways to study this other than "my body feels like this".

[mickey]

Greetngs,

dwid: I am not interested in magic bullets. Simply growth. The direction may differ from yours but, as many say, there are many roads to the top.

Ford: I am totally okay with being ignored. I look forward to seeing more of your posts and exchanging points of view in the way that we have in this thread.

Take Care Brothers,

mickey

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
what d'you want ??? my freakin CV????

do you not undrstand???....my body and my experience tells a different story to what the majority of you are preaching... I feel like you are full of sh*t and unknowledgable...and don't practice anthing close to ma as it should be, was and is for anyone except p/t hobbiests....

this is my life..............


there's more to ma than big muscles( like sports pyschology and that lone warrior mentality ..............clinging to mac D's burgers, and your spouses and your bullsh*t night outs when I'm home training and studying mao).....something so many folks here just refuse to let go of..I've seen your bodies and I've read your regimes and your profiles........

so I'm a radical thinker, and have non-orthidox methods......and your av.joe lifestyle isn't my bag....so i don't interact as though it is.........I also think that most of you are seriously immature and have alot of psychological and emotion developement to do before I would even consider taking you seriously.......

sorry dude...I think you 're a wa*k..........

no judgement...just wouldn't wanna be ya


see this is silly...and I've already unsubscribed from allthreads...so live and let live ha

peace out dude :cool:
Well, no - obviously you really cannot see the problem.

[blooming lotus]

Serpent, you're on ignore as well so I couldn't read your post..sorry...

Ford..just because I'm educated that mean I have to speak like a stiff....scuse me for getting casual......

my comments are not only based on some way out theory, and if any of you sriously bothered to investigate rather than holding fast to your text book knowledge, you'd understand that you can't read a bookon life, and quite often there are negotiable and subjective variables...I am often that variable...I like new information and get a buzz out of playing with limits............

I think a great deal of the reason I find you so hard to takeseriously is your narrow minded understanding and perspective on dim mak ( commmonly know ion China as Chin na) and your views on qi genereally...to understand this concept requires a certain amount of intellengence, willingness to learn and maturity... without having investigated this..I feel often your perspectives reguarding life in general are superficial ..

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
Serpent, you're on ignore as well so I couldn't read your post..sorry...
Pretty soon we'll all be on ignore and we can live in peace again, chatting amongst ourselves with BL not interrupting. I was sort of waiting for her to **** off like she keeps promising, but she keeps coming back.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
Ford..just because I'm educated that mean I have to speak like a stiff....scuse me for getting casual...
Ford's right. In general, well-educated people tend not to speak like a 16 yr old. How do I know? I'm a postgrad student and find myself and other academic staff talking like nerds all the time, not just work time.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
...dim mak ( commmonly know ion China as Chin na) ... Sure about this? I'm no expert, but I always thought dim mak == pressure point striking and chin na == locking and trapping. I'd hate to think you were wrong.

I think we all just have to accept BL's presence. She may be full of ****, but she's not going away. I was tempted to put her on ignore, but some of the stuff she says is so funny I couldn't bring myself to do it.

mickey, I was being facetious when I said C, H, O and N molecules. Like dwid said:

Originally posted by dwid
Fascia, on a molecular level, does not differ fundamentally from any other tissue in the body. I made a mistake, though. I should have said "combination of C, H, O & N atoms". Long time since high school chem ;).

<edit>fixed quote tags</edit>

[Vash]

Originally posted by Toby

Pretty soon we'll all be on ignore and we can live in peace again, chatting amongst ourselves with BL not interrupting. I was sort of waiting for her to **** off like she keeps promising, but she keeps coming back.


Ford's right. In general, well-educated people tend not to speak like a 16 yr old. How do I know? I'm a postgrad student and find myself and other academic staff talking like nerds all the time, not just work time.

Sure about this? I'm no expert, but I always thought dim mak == pressure point striking and chin na == locking and trapping. I'd hate to think you were wrong.

I think we all just have to accept BL's presence. She may be full of ****, but she's not going away. I was tempted to put her on ignore, but some of the stuff she says is so funny I couldn't bring myself to do it.

mickey, I was being facetious when I said C, H, O and N molecules. Like dwid said:

Originally posted by dwid
Fascia, on a molecular level, does not differ fundamentally from any other tissue in the body. I made a mistake, though. I should have said "combination of C, H, O & N atoms". Long time since high school chem ;).

But, her posts are so much easier to read when it's just that one line that says ignore.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
[B]
Pretty soon we'll all be on ignore and we can live in peace again, chatting amongst ourselves with BL not interrupting. I was sort of waiting for her to **** off like she keeps promising, but she keeps coming back.


Ford's right. In general, well-educated people tend not to speak like a 16 yr old. How do I know? I'm a postgrad student and find myself and other academic staff talking like nerds all the time, not just work time.


] now you know what i'm dealing with here...when in rome

I always thought dim mak == pressure point striking


extremely loose definition


and chin na == locking and trapping.
[/B

applicable to meridians and qi centres etc...

as for comming back ...whaddya say....I'm asucker for tose in need of education ;) ...must be the teacher comming out in me

[Toby]

I thought I was on ignore?

Hey, I've got this great idea. Seeing as you're a genius, why don't you finish off my postgrad research for me? I mean, you've probably thought it up years ago so it'll be no problem for you. And if you haven't already done it, your genius IQ will mean you'll do it in a fraction of the time I'll take with my lowly IQ. All I'd have to do is run it through a spell-checker ...

[blooming lotus]

nice contribution....see the minute I get out some real information, little idiots want to talk sh*t

godamm you're frustrating to be near.......so i swear and you're a fool....ok...clear :rolleyes:

[Serpent]

So bl's ignoring me? Sweet. That's almost as good as her p!ssing off completely.

For the benefit of others, dim mak and chin na are absolutely not the same thing.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Serpent
So bl's ignoring me? Sweet. That's almost as good as her p!ssing off completely.

For the benefit of others, dim mak and chin na are absolutely not the same thing.

Serpent has taken hold of the correct with a chin na technique, and is currently trying to squeeze it's SP-7.

[abobo]

Kudos to MerryPrankster. Very clear arguments there. At which point I thought the thread was wrapping up...

And considering that bloominglotus trains more than most of us and doesn't like listening to most people on here, she sure posts a lot.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
nice contribution....see the minute I get out some real information, little idiots want to talk sh*t

godamm you're frustrating to be near.......so i swear and you're a fool....ok...clear :rolleyes:
Once again, I thought you were ignoring me?

Anyway, in other threads I already conceded that I'm an idiot (esp. compared to your mighty intellect). I think Vash was the fool. As to "little", well, that doesn't fit. Remember, you're the one that's less than 1/2 my size.

abobo, I agree that it should've stopped after MP's posts. But it's so much fun to argue with BL, I just can't stop ;).

<edit>Fixed a grammar error :eek: :D</edit>

[IronFist]

Well, I consider myself educated (I have a degree in IS, and I know the difference between "your" and "you're"), and I don't always talk that way.

Especially when my computer ****es me off. Oh man. I swear like a mofo. ****ing piece of **** Windows ME ****ing freezes all the time and I'm just like "wtf you stupid piece of ****?!" :D :p

Then again, when I am under the notion that a more refined level of speech is appropriate I make the necessary adjustments.

Anyway, my point is,

Speech != education

And my other point is that qigong alone doesn't give you awesome muscle strength.

[rubthebuddha]

definition of chin na (http://wingchun.truepath.com/chin_na_history.htm): The term "Chin Na" in the Chinese language is translated into 2 separate words: chin-"seize" and na-"control.

another definition of chin na (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Chin%20na): "Qin" means to seize or trap, "Na" means to lock or break, and while those actions are very often executed in that order (trap then lock), the two actions can also be performed distinctly in training and self defense. Which is to say, a trap isn't always followed by a lock or break, and a lock or break is not necessarily set up by a trap. preview not available. Click the link for more information.

yet another defintion of chin na: (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mabrown88/aboutkf.htm): Chin Na: (Pinyin: Qinna) (Translation: "Catch-Arrest," or "Seize and Immobilize")

i notice a pattern ...

[Toby]

Originally posted by IronFist
Speech != education
I'd say there's a definite amount of correlation. There are exceptions, but in general speech ∝ education. However, speech ∝ 1/youth, so in your case, I'll attribute your language to your age :D. In BL's case, since we're all pimply faced teenagers in her humble(!) opinion, I can't equate language to age, so I'll say it's the 1st relationship. Of course all the above is just my opinion based on personal experience, so it must be right :D.

Rub, don't you be providing references to back up your argument :mad:. Not in this forum.

[blooming lotus]

nothing alike ha? well you wouldn't think so would you? then you get to china, show them your dim mak and they go hey great chin na........everywhere i go ..the minute you mention gongfu, someone shapes up , throws a move and waits your counter..........dim mak has locks and holds too....I guess these western definitions are sort of modified????

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
... the minute you mention gongfu, someone shapes up , throws a move and waits your counter ...So they throw e.g. a punch, then stand there with their arm extended waiting for you to move? You sure you haven't got kung fu confused with chess? Or by "throws a move and waits your counter" did you mean, moves knight to bishop 4 and presses the timer?

[blooming lotus]

always the clown :rolleyes:

what I mean is , once you mention you ' ve studied gongfu ..they go "oh you can play gongfu??...what wold you do if I did.........this..." then they wait to see what you will do.......or they will give you their best crane, snake, kick,fist combo and encourage you to defend it....
I normally do something with a dim mak combo and they go " hey, very good chin na :D " ????

maybe my dim mak just evloved that way, but they don't draw a whole lot of distinction

[dwid]

Pretty soon we'll all be on ignore and we can live in peace again, chatting amongst ourselves with BL not interrupting. I was sort of waiting for her to **** off like she keeps promising, but she keeps coming back.

Actually, things won't be fundamentally different. BL doesn't actually need to read anyone's posts to write her responses. She'll just pop in now and then and tell everyone they are wrong and that qi holds all the answers and that she knows this because she is smarter than everyone else.

;)

[rubthebuddha]

sorry, toby. i guess i should have realized i was wrong when my references sourced silly terms like "wade/giles" "and pinyin." :o

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by dwid


She'll just pop in now and then and tell everyone they are wrong

;)

at least thats what you're hoping for right??...lol :p

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


at least thats what you're hoping for right??...lol :p
No, we're hoping you'll bugger off for good.

[blooming lotus]

no because if you really wanted that andhasd any will power at all, you'd just stfu...

I'm just going to assume you're one of these yes means no people...and humour you anyway

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
maybe my dim mak just evloved that way, but they don't draw a whole lot of distinction

with less than a year of training?

While you are there, are you going to try and train at a shaolin Tempe?

[Merryprankster]

there are times when explanations in physical terms just will not do.

for purposes of our discussion, the known properties of the adrenal system may not suffice, re yhe needle. my point being that the things you describe do not, of necessity, require qi. it is possible that they may, but it is also possible some other explanation exists.

which you choose is entirely up to you, of course.

[Merryprankster]

bl, my comments re genetic potential are not a load of bull. they are correct, by definition, much as the supreme court's decisions are correct, by definition.

if you choose to believe that cultivation of qi can reinforce physical attributes, there is nothing wrong with that. however, this has no impact on genetic potential re: physical development of those attributes.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
bl, my comments re genetic potential are not a load of bull. they are correct, by definition, much as the supreme court's decisions are correct, by definition.

lol


if you choose to believe that cultivation of qi can reinforce physical attributes, there is nothing wrong with that. however, this has no impact on genetic potential re: physical development of those attributes.

ok that sounds fair enough, but I just don't buy limits for most things within reason.......especially when we're talking about things that have even an aspect of subjectivitely

7..yes with less than a year of training....it's that effective.....

I alsohave alot of pre-requ knowledge of qi and bodily structures and tendancies etc so it all helps...also studied tcm privately...hand in hand

[mickey]

Merryprankster,

Who touched your shoulder while I was away?:)

It is nice to hear you make room for other possibilities.

mickey

[Serpent]

Mickey, there's always other possibilities. But there are no absolute truths! ;)

[Ka]

If there are no Absolute Truths
Then there must be at least One Absolute Truth,
That there are no Absolute Truths;)

[Merryprankster]

lol....especially when we're talking about things that have even an aspect of subjectivitely

this is precisely my point. there is no subjectivity re: the term genetic potential. like absolute strength, maximal strength, event horizon, surface area, diminished open fifth, or markofnikoff substitution, genetic potential, at least in this field, has a specific definition. just as the supreme court's interpretations of the constitution are, by definition, legally correct, there is no room to maneuver. consequently, my statements on this issue are correct as i am merely stating the definition of genetic potential.
words mean things and semantics have real value.

mickey, i have no problem with other possibilities, but my openness comes with the understanding that we have no real proof of anything like qi. we have anecdotal evidence, no double-blind empirical studies, etc. some say it exists, some say it don't. me, i subscribe to occam's razor. if i don't need qi to explain something - if the explanation can be accounted for in some other, measurable way, then i choose the less complicated and more universal explanation. as i said before, adding qi to something where it isn't required by necessity allows you to posit small friendly undetectable aliens which are duplicating those effects. regardless of personal feelings on the subject, they are logically equivalent.

it's rather like intelligent design arguments - they argue that the complexity of the universe requires an intelligent creator, ergo, god. the flaw, of course, is that you do not reach god of necessity here - a hyperdimensional, ultra smart race of slugs, with none of the properties of god could just as easily be your intelligent designer.

some may argue, if it gets results, who cares. i'm terribly interested in the way the universe works. science is a process designed to shed light on incomplete bodies of knowledge. it may eventually reach a point where qi is necessary, measured, explained. on the other hand, we may reach a point where we completely understand life and the human body (unlikely, imo) and qi is utterly unnecessary.

until then jury's out.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ka
If there are no Absolute Truths
Then there must be at least One Absolute Truth,
That there are no Absolute Truths;)
Indeed. That would be the only one!

:)

Merryprankster - excellent post. Personally, I subscribe to qi and many other unexplainable phenomena, but that's still a great post.

[dodger87]

I remember seeing one time on Ripley's believe it or not where they showed this really old chinese dude, he was like 80 or something cant remember. Anyways they had the old dude lie down on the ground with some small sort of platform ontop of his body. And the next bit was bloody unbelievable, they had this huge mining truck that was at least 2 tonnes or so run over him with one of its wheel rolling over the platform on his body. And they showed him afterwards and he was fine.

[blooming lotus]

Iron skills are an awesome thing to witness......

MP ....I think you may have contradicted yourself...

you say that you areterribley interested in science and te way the universe works on an intellectual level, implying detailed undestanding simplified to lay terms, yet you find that qi is often irrelevant ???? how does that work.......

qi is understanding on a more complex , detailed andscientific level (probably now talking meta/quantum physics to throw it into acategory for thesake of "box-definition or understanding"...........)

where there is matter..there is qi.......to xplainwith accuracy, especiaaly when speaking intectual concepts, it's hard not to acknowledgeqi and the contribution it makes not only to our bodies but to existance in general of all matter....

nano-technology is the closest thing to verification we haveat this point...it has been substantiated that people and any thing of substance omits and absorbs "energy" at a cetain frequency...this is measrable up to a certain frequency...it has certain tendancies and can be controlled in certain but measurable fashions.......

nano technology is not complete study but is certaionly a step toward real and verifiable evidence.........

[Toby]

Originally posted by dodger87
I remember seeing one time on Ripley's believe it or not where they showed this really old chinese dude, he was like 80 or something cant remember. Anyways they had the old dude lie down on the ground with some small sort of platform ontop of his body. And the next bit was bloody unbelievable, they had this huge mining truck that was at least 2 tonnes or so run over him with one of its wheel rolling over the platform on his body. And they showed him afterwards and he was fine.
My little Land Rover is over 2 tonnes ;). It's all about surface area and weight distribution dodger87. Like I'd be willing to lie on a bed of nails, but I wouldn't want to support my whole bodyweight on one nail. Same when I'm driving in sand. Tyres at highway pressure will dig in. Let air out, surface area of tyre increases and I'll float over areas that I bogged in before.

BL, do you even know what quantum physics is? I fail to see the remotest link between it and qi. Same goes for nano-technology. How does that relate to qi?

[Toby]

Once and for all, can you give me (us) your definition of "qi" BL? Because rereading your last post, it appears you think that "qi" == some unit of quantum physics, like (digging deep into memory here) quarks or leptons or fermions. Is that so? If so, do you also propose that you can exert conscious control over these units either individually or collectively? Lastly, do you have a reference where it is stated that qi is a unit used in quantum physics.

[blooming lotus]

I understand that you ( like so many other people) have trouble accepting this information and finding the associations and implications.....I guess this is a great part of the reason why chinese people find "qi" so hard to literate in western terms......

I'm not here to sell "qi" and language is limited.......

hmmmm.....good luck in finding your answers

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
where there is matter..there is qi.......


So does my desk have qi?

[blooming lotus]

lol...great question....

it was once a tree right?.....or metal from the ground.....or plastic made from other elements derving from the earth???

yes...your desk has qi

[Merryprankster]

bl,

i have contradicted myself only if, for the purposes of this argument, you presuppose the existence of qi. otherwise, i have not. you are arguing, essentially, that if i want to more fully understand how the universe works, i must embrace the concept of qi as an assumption for my work. unfortunately, this doesn't work. it leads to a teleology, which is useless for scientific endeavors determining HOW the universe works - circular reasoning isn't very useful for discoveries.

if i don't begin with the assumption of qi to explain how things are done, then i am free to consider it as an option, however, unlike your argument, i am not bound to it as a conclusion.

science is a logical positivist endeavor. if qi turns out to be the best, most efficient, verifiable explanation for something, by necessity, then there you go. but i am not going to inject it into a process or idea that doesn't require such a thing - this would be like returning to the idea of aether as the medium through which light travels or that the heavenly bodies travel in perfect circles upon perfect circles upon perfect circles in their orbits around the earth, when we already have better explanations for these phenomena. they are simpler and make more accurate predictions about the phenomena the govern and are empirically tested (repeatedly) which demonstrate the accuracy of said predictions.

you can build a self consistent theory for anything you want, but the test is - does that theory make accurate and universal predictions reflected in observation?

ask the same question of qi, and we get a big question mark. we have anecdotal evidence that suggests the concept is worth studying, but we do not have a strong body of experimental evidence verifying its existence or its effects. this throws it squarely into the jury's still out category.


nano technology is not complete study but is certaionly a step toward real and verifiable evidence

and until such time, the jury is still out.

for the sake of clarification, nano-technology refers to a field of science which endeavors to manipulate matter on a molecular scale or below. it has zero to do with wavelength emissions of any person or object, which is more properly associated with particle physics and cosmology.

in fact, said emissions and vibrations are readily explained; different elements and even sub atomic particles constantly release energy at different wavelengths. this action is temperature dependent, and particle and element dependent as well. in fact, there is a background radiation associated with the entire universe, which is more or less uniform, based on this concept.

we can look at these radiation signatures, which are unique for any massive body, to determine what it might be, what it's made of if we want to, and which massive body it is, or if it is a new one we haven't seen before. yes, everything radiates a set of wavelengths that, when added all up, create a unique signature for that individual object.

however. this does not require qi. it is a function of quantum mechanics, which accounts for, and predicts accurately, the type, amount and wavelength of the radiation/vibration in question.

once again, does this say anything about the existence of qi? nope. it just demonstrates that qi is not necessary for this well-known, well documented, predictable phenomenon.

[Vash]

MP has taken the correct and schooled it in the art of coherent and logical thought.

[fa_jing]

I thought Qi was basically Bio-electricity?

And why couldn't we control our own Bio-electricity to some extent? I mean we can, our brains send electrical signals through the nerves and we are pretty much matter and energy, right? We have at least the appearance of volition....so we appear to have some control over our bio-electricity.

No martial application here, but if you contemplate your Dan Tien long enough, you will feel something.

Also, the accupuncture points have been shown to have above-average levels of electrical conductivity.

Lastly, if you press points along the meridians, you will sometimes feel a "ping" in the organ to which it responds. I've felt it before. I've also had accupressure in one end of a meridian near the cheek, and felt and "ping" at the other end, which is on the side of the second toe. Something like that is not accidental.

The Chinese didn't derive any of this theoretically, they just found the points by trial and error, meditation and concentration. That's why the "science" behind it is so shaky. Unlike Western Science, where theory and experimentation have had more of an equal role.

[blooming lotus]

interesting thoughts....if you're not prepared to consder qi a possiblility you are also working with you close yourself off to broader perpective.....

in considering it, you must at some stage, give it benifit of the doubt.......but only if you want the full picture

just a different approach ;)

qi relates to biology, cosmology, electrical and lightspectrum(?)frequency etc etc....all life from woe to go and beyond

evoloution of matter, before creation, during being, and on into the cycle of change to apparent non-being and recreation or metamorphisis of each element

[Merryprankster]

interesting thoughts....if you're not prepared to consder qi a possiblility you are also working with you close yourself off to broader perpective.....

i think i've been quite clear that i'm willing to consider it. i don't know how to be more clear.


in considering it, you must at some stage, give it benifit of the doubt.......but only if you want the full picture

giving something the benefit of the doubt and presupposing its existence are not the same thing.

[blooming lotus]

are you sure you don't need to presuppose somethings' existence to give it a fair hearing and / or investigation???

set about trying tp prove rather than disprove it and see how you go...flip the coin

[Merryprankster]

if i have to presuppose the existance, then it becomes an issue of faith, at which point arguing about evidence and proof is pointless. faith has no need of proof.

i haven't tried to disprove anything.

[blooming lotus]

no ...then it becomes a matter of reserved judgement ( being that your natural opinion is "unsubstantiated"....or against to date) and scientific proffessionalism

[Merryprankster]

you're confusing presupposing the existence of something and hypothesizing something might be responsible for causation pending experimentation. quite different.


or against to date

i reiterate, i'm not against it at all, and given the logical impossibility of trying to disprove something, wouldn't do that.

again, please show me otherwise and i'll be more than happy to admit my mistake.

[blooming lotus]

ok...fair enough....but in hypothesising that something is thecause of something else, you must first pre-suppose its existence :D

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I understand that you ( like so many other people) have trouble accepting this information and finding the associations and implications.....I guess this is a great part of the reason why chinese people find "qi" so hard to literate in western terms......

I'm not here to sell "qi" and language is limited.......

hmmmm.....good luck in finding your answers
I don't have trouble accepting the information. I don't know what it is I should be trying to accept. Which is why I asked for clarification. Then, like in the dim mak thread, you evade the question. What is your definition? If it were electrical impulses generated in the body like fa_jing proposed, then I might have an easier time considering the notion. But then, a desk wouldn't have qi.

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
...I guess this is a great part of the reason why chinese people find "qi" so hard to literate in western terms...
Also, you're not Chinese, you're Western. So since you understand the notion of qi so well, literate it for us.

[blooming lotus]

a little demanding, and it's just not that easy....

sure bio-electric pulses are a good place to start your understanding....I have answered that question here before several times...I told you...in almost every book I've read it is equated or even directly translated to intrinsic energy or life-force... this can be decieving though, because there is also life in Irons' desk in the way of the tree it used to be....as there is ife in all of the universe down to life beginning at the very smallest and lightest particle..........................


for me realting it to the cosmos was triggered by considering helium and collection of particles on their way to forming matter and life......still omitting this energy which became the earth /water and air and metals that make up our bodies......still omitting these frequencies........then the journey back beyond decompisition back to the particles of energy we began as....

of course now you have to consider the fact that we had also absorbed other "particles and assimilated frequencies with others during our lifetime (Ie: karma etc) .so what is the frequency when we check out??? .............does that help any????

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
a little demanding, and it's just not that easy...
I appreciate the effort.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
sure bio-electric pulses are a good place to start your understanding....I have answered that question here before several times...I told you...in almost every book I've read it is equated or even directly translated to intrinsic energy or life-force... this can be decieving though, because there is also life in Irons' desk in the way of the tree it used to be....as there is ife in all of the universe down to life beginning at the very smallest and lightest particle...Not in the Western model. E.g. converse to your last sentence, there is no life in an atom of hydrogen.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
for me realting it to the cosmos was triggered by considering helium and collection of particles on their way to forming matter and life......still omitting this energy which became the earth /water and air and metals that make up our bodies......still omitting these frequencies........then the journey back beyond decompisition back to the particles of energy we began as...
Perhaps you meant hydrogen, not helium ;). Anyway, yes, hydrogen combining with oxygen to form water is an exothermic reaction i.e. it produces energy. But (the last statement) the opposite reaction, "decomposing" water to produce hydrogen and oxygen is endothermic i.e. it requires energy. So where does this energy come from? Also, nothing "becomes" metal, unless it's an alloy. Metals are compounds of elements i.e. metal is metal, not a combination of anything. An iron bar is a collection of Fe atoms. In practice, however, common metals usually contain percentages of other elements and a degree of oxidation at the surface.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
of course now you have to consider the fact that we had also absorbed other "particles and assimilated frequencies with others during our lifetime (Ie: karma etc) .so what is the frequency when we check out??? .............does that help any????
Not really :p. It would be a long stretch for me to accept that I absorb energy and particles (from where?) that make up my being. Apart from food, water and air of course. But, for example, I don't have any gold in me AFAIK, despite frequent exposure to it in a pure form. Also, if I were to assimilate frequencies from other objects (I feel like a Borg), what within me absorbs those frequencies? i.e. if they can pass into me, what is to stop them passing right through me and out the other side? Also, in what form do those frequencies pass? "Frequencies" implies energy. So what form of energy? Heat, light, sound, electrical, chemical?

Lastly, your belief in these things implies you find fault with Western science. Is that the case? I couldn't rationalise both beliefs at the same time. E.g. I had a colleague while an undergrad who was a born-again Christian. He had been brainwashed into the whole literal belief of the Bible thing by his parents from an early age. I couldn't see how he could sit through some of our lectures (esp. physics) and at the same time swear black and blue that the earth was 6000yrs old and Noah's Ark was non-fiction. He just chopped and changed his science to fit certain arguments, but didn't have a consistent view of Western science. His faith was his main belief.

[IronFist]

Anyone wanna talk about how auras relate to the whole bioelectric/qi thing?

[Merryprankster]

you must first pre-suppose its existence

no.

no it doesn't. pre-supposing something exists allows me to do two things:

1. create a self-consistent framework, however inaccurate that framework might be.

2. have faith regardless of the outcome.


creating a testable hypothesis may involve making an assumption regarding causation. i presuppose existance of nothing in this scenario. there is a cognitive difference, even if they are colloquially similar. one process is prejudgment, the other reserves judgment and is willing to modify, discard and move on should evidence dictate.

even then, i don't have to assume the thing i'm lasking questions about exists! i can just look to the results of my experiment, re: the specific question.

words mean things. definitions matter. semantics are important.

for instance, infinite and finite without bound aren't the same no matter how much people try to equate them.

[Merryprankster]

as there is ife in all of the universe down to life beginning at the very smallest and lightest particle..........................

as an example my above, your quotation presupposes chi. it argues from itself. teleological - nothing LEADS you to this conclusion, logically.

you choose to believe it "because." this is fine but suffers from the same problem as christian apology.

[Ford Prefect]

I have to start coming here on weekends.

[scotty1]

Don't do it Ford!:D

[Nick Forrer]

A few points

1) Mp is correct- to tentatively posit the existence of something- i.e. to ask yourself questions of the form: what would it be like for x to exist; what tangible effects would x have and thus what kind of observations would corroborate x's existence, what kind of empirical data would allow us to distinguish the presence of x from the absence of x- is different from an argument that has to presuppose (however tacitly) the existence of x in order to prove that x exists.

2) The every day language in which problems are formulated often contains ambiguities that can lead to unwarranted conclusions if one is not careful. Statements that have as their subject terms nouns that refer to non existent entities - such as 'Santa claus does not exist' - are particularly notorious in this regard. Is this statement true or false? True obviously, and yet how is it possible to make true statements about things which do not exist? To deny that Santa Claus exists dont we first have to (in some sense of the word) presuppose that Santa Claus exists? Is non existence a property of Santa Claus? How can non existent things even have properties?

3) A hypothesis formulated in sufficiently general and vague terms will be easy to corroborate. However this is not an explanatory virtue but a vice. The true test of the scientific credentials of a theory (i.e. what Popper terms 'a criterion of demarcation between science and pseudo science') is not how many observations confirm it but how easily an osbservation could (in theory) disprove it.

To illustrate

Consider Marx's prediction that whenever a Capitalist society became sufficiently riddled with its own internal contradictions it would succumb to a revolution. Every time you point to society X as a counter example and say - x is capitalist- why hasn't there been a revolution there? Marx can reply - because it isnt sufficiently riddled with internal contradicitions yet. In other words he can fit every attempted refutation into his theory without having to modify it because it (his theory) is formulated in sufficiently general terms to allow for such an accomodation.

Now contrast this with Einsteins predicition (based on a counter intuitive leap of logic, not observation) that gravity affects the path of light. Eddington was able to confirm this by looking at the position of a star during a solar eclipse and noting that its position in the sky was different from at night (because the gravity of the sun bent the light that it emitted during the day). However the important thing was not that he confirmed Einsteins conjecture but that he failed to disprove it which would have been very easy to do were it not true. All that it would have taken to prove Einstein wrong would be for the star to be in the same position during the eclipse . What is notable about Einsteins theory (which distinguishes it from Marx's) is the amount of risk associated with it. The theory makes clear exactly what kind of observation would be required to refute it.

4) In the absence of concrete evidence to the contrary scientists will often posit the existence of something to 'plug the gap' in a an otherwise elegant theory. Sometimes the thing posited will turn out to exist and sometimes not - Darwin posited the existence of a certain kind of long nosed insect when he came across a flower that would require such an insect for pollination- he turned out to be correct. A more recent example- Scientists posit the existence of dark matter because their theories require it- there remains no empirical evidence of it existing though.

5) A belief in Science is distinct from a scientific belief;)