When trapped with hands and legs...

[Gangsterfist]

Okay, I have found myself thinking about what to do in worst case scenerios. Like when someone has stuck to you, has superior leg posistion (like a leg pressing your knee or ankle, or in a sweeping position) and has one or both of your arms trapped and is coming at you strong. I keep thinking elbows in that situation, like a cup jong or the straight crossing elbow or the upper cut elbow once they close in. However, those may be good answers on the streets, but I can't elbow my kung fu brother while sparring. Its too dangerous, and high risk of me hurting him.

I have tried changing my foot work with a lop or a biu or taan sao. I have tried cross stepping back and then coming back in with a kick and try to get better foot position. What are some other ideas I can train? My first reaction might be an elbow on the streets (I love elbows) but in the kwoon thats not very nice or respectful to my fellow brothers and sisters. So, I lets discuss how to change the situation into it being beneficial for you over them. What are some ways you would reverse a bad situation?

[namron]

Have you tried changing the level and working a take down (i.e. grappling move).

Can be done quickly and it can be a good get out of jail card

Petition some of the better grapplers on the forum for advice.

Other options you've probably already covered, full back step, changing line and freeing ther elbow to jam kick or re-enter...etc...

PS: I like the elbows to but they can open up the face of you training buddy real easy if miscued, try smashing him in the chest with the pointy bit and see if you can break balance/momentum.

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah I have covered ground fighting/grappling before. I am trying to improve my stand up right now. I will train more of my ground fighting/grappling another time.

I have tried going into the clench and kneeing a few times in the last couple of weeks (guess I have been watching too much ong bak lately hahaha)

[Gangsterfist]

The thing is, I grapple too much sometimes. I always go for an arm bar or chin na move, or a take down when under pressure like that. I am trying to develope a new skill set just incase that would be a bad idea.

I thought of using a taiji technique called fly like a bird. Basically you hop back a full step and it creates enough space to perhaps get into a better position. However, if your opponet is keen to this they will fly like a bird right with you (sticking) and you will find yourself right back where you started.

[canglong]

Understanding the proper use of time space and energy is always the first step.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by canglong
Understanding the proper use of time space and energy is always the first step.

Sorry, I have tried to understand this concept but it always escapes me. I am not into the time/space/energy/harmony logic. If it works for you, then thats cool, I just don't get it. Plus I am talking real applications and not theory here. I can talk wing chun theory all day long. I am trying to find useful techniques I don't normally use so I can train more attributes. However, thanks for your input.

[canglong]

Just curious to date how many techniques have you collected?

[Gangsterfist]

I have no idea of the exact number but I will list a few here, and I may not remember them all at the moment. Please add anything if I miss it as well.

Lon Sao, using a hard technique like lon sao can help your arms get out of a trap. You can do it with both arms using the elbows like in chum kiu

Huen Ma, circling the legs inside or outside can sometimes put them into another position which can turn the tables and make it beneficial for you.

Elbows, like I mentioned above. Dropping, cross, uppercut, cup jong, hooking, discreet, etc (I am sure every school has their own names and sets of elbows. I learned the 11 elbows set from my sifu, who learned it when he was cross training in the sonny tang system. Its just a neat little set of elbows, nothing too special but a decent training tool)

Cross step back and drill back in with a kick for re-entry. Circle or draw back the leg being stuck or attacked into a cross stance. Cross leg stance is like a bong sao, you never want to stay in that position usually (I am sure there might be a few rare instances you may want to stay in cross leg stance) and then come right back in with a kick. This is something I see TKD people do and it makes your opponet change their stance and movements to block or counter yours.

Triangling foot work can also be used similar to the huen ma.

Lops can be used to throw them off balance and gain the advantage. I found lopping on the shoulder/neck area and pulling down towards my center makes a decent move and can put you in an advantageous position.

Of course there is the clench and grappling take down stuff, but I am trying not to do that and expand my stand up.

Retreating, fly like a bird technique, but not necessarily the best idea.

Splitting your oppoents energies (put opposite force on two different parts of the body to split them and throw them off balance).

Knees. Kneeing will bring my leg up and take it out of its bad position and can scrape down the leg on re-entry.

That is all I can think of off the top of my head. Anything you wish to add would be appreciated.

Thanks,
GF

[Nick Forrer]

Quan sau (bong/tan togther) is very good for when you are in close and need to make space

Also if some one tries a takedown- can try the following three step procedure
- 1 sink your weight
- 2 widen your stance/legs
- 3 try to wedge your elbows underneath theirs and lever upwards

Also can grab the chin and twist the head- shearing type technique that hurts the neck

Key is timing- have to do it as they go for the takedown- small window which if you miss it you are going down.

BTW well down gf for listing actual techniques rather than empty confucianisms

[S.Teebas]

I think the key is to keep moving. If you freeze then you're giving your opponent an easier target to strike. Also it changes the line of attack they may be using (this would depend on how much they are pressing on you - {keep relaxed and give them nothing to press}) or if they are using a highly refined level of focus, in which case you might just be out-numbered skill-wise, and have to bite the bullet that there are people who are better then you.

Remembering to keeping relaxed and focused on the opponent also keeps them working. Don’t give your opponent a walk in the park, even if you can't hit him (if that’s what your trying to do in this training situation) you can still keep the pressure on him if you keep your structure as sound as possible, and your intention fully directed at him.... so when you DO find a line he isn't covering, you can come straight in that way.

I see WC as first find out how to USE your body, then working out what to do with it. A technique could be named, but the specific force being applied by your opponent would mean the movement would not be as correct as another (depending on which direction his force is coming...and going). So I think it is hard to as for a specific technique as an answer, and expect it to work: i.e. when someone does 'Trap A', and you try to do 'Escape A' to counter it. Sometimes unexpected, but good, results occur when you listen to the force (with your chi sau skills) then react from what feel is an appropriate path to follow. Like WSL said once: "Make sure you know what’s going on, don’t just guess." Or something along those lines ;)

[canglong]

originally posted by gangsterfist
Lops can be used to throw them off balance and gain the advantage. Actual you gain time and (space)
originally posted by gangsterfist
Splitting your oppoents energies (put opposite force on two different parts of the body to split them and throw them off balance). Using energy to gain space and thus time well said.
originally posted by Nick Forrer
Key is timing - Benefitial in all instances.
Sometimes we say the same things but hear something different it happens.
Enjoy

A little something for my friend Mr Forrer...

Not exalting the gifted prevents quarreling.
Not collecting treasures prevents stealing.
Not seeing desireable things prevents confusion of the heart.

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies,
by weakening ambitions and strenghthening bones.
If people lack knowlege and desire,
then intellectuals will not try to interfere.
If nothing is done, then all will be well.

[Gangsterfist]

When I said to do a cross step, scratch that. Its not wing chun, I subconsciencously picked it up from another system. The stepping back and kicking would be done in one motion, like from the dummy form probably with a bong sao. Same thing, just compacted into one motion.

Nick-

Quan (qwan) sao is a great idea. However, I find myself really only using it against kicks. I know it has more applications than just that, but it seems its my habbit of only using it for kicks. I would probably use gan sao or mon sao to sweep the area and create space. However, good point and it could be used. I'll need to practice that one.

I just got back from class and a friend of sifu's trained with us today. He studied bagua, taiji, juijitsu and hsing-i. I learned a lot about southern kung fu today. A lot of it is all very similar, just different motions and ideas.

I am going to need some time to think a bit before i get back to these last ditch effort techniques.

[Nick Forrer]

'A little something for my friend Mr Forrer...'

Thanks very much Mr Jacobs!

Something in return

'A joke is an epigram on the death of a feeling'

-Nietzsche

[blooming lotus]

I think the important thing in that situation is how your arms are trapped...like to front, the side, back??etc...and where both of yurs and your opponents foot balance is at? when you consider those questions, your defense strategy kinda becommes subjective and could then be one of many many different counters

[Da_Moose]

Gangster,

Not to be a wise guy or anything, but if your arms are trapped, how do you intend to successfully execute an elbow strike? While you're busy unsticking yourself from your opponent, he is free to unload on you. You first need to disengage to create the space to deliver your elbow without it, or your legs, being checked / assaulted as you try to attack. Even if one arm is trapped and your legs are 'stuck', you still need to create some space and disengage. If your opponent has influence on your center, you need to recover that center before mounting a successful counter attack.

Like Blooming Lotus said, it also depends on the nature of the trap your arms are in and what you need to do first to recover.



Steve

[yuanfen]

"Not to be a wise guy or anything, but if your arms are trapped, how do you intend to successfully execute an elbow strike?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A great time to do it. Depends on ability and execution!!!
Yuanfen

[Gangsterfist]

lon sao, or elbows from chum kiu are great to create space when trapped. Elbows from biu jee as well.

The thing is usually your opponet is really close to you when you are trapped, so elbows are an okay idea.

[Da_Moose]

Ok, let's get more specific.

Is one arm trapped or both? If one, where is it trapped? Elbow and pinned to the body? Wrist? Etc...
If both, are the trapped one under the other with control over the elbow? Forearm? Bicep?

Where is the leg being checked at? The knee? Ankle? Foot?

Gangsterfist,

Please set up a specific scenario if you want actual answers that can be evaluated and discussed, otherwise the question is too open ended. I understand the Lon Sau thinking, but your idea of trapped and mine may be different. I don't consider myself trapped unless my arms are both pinned, one under the other somehow, with control over my top elbow being exerted. Thsi makes it difficult to use an elbow strike. That was my perspective on your scenario, but what is it in your mind?


Steve

[Xiao3 Meng4]

An important element to remember when developing standup skill is the maintenance of initiative. If both of your arms are trapped, and one leg is immobilized, then it would seem to me that your initiative is lost. Your question on how to regain this initiative is valid, but don't forget that effectively maintaining the initiative means you would not get into that position in the first place. The better you are at owning the midrange, the less chance of such a clinch and loss of initiative occuring.

with that said, when you're in a clinch, the initiative of both fighters is comprimised.. kind of in limbo. Whoever finds their centre first will generally win the initiative through whatever means.. grappling or striking, or both.

[Gangsterfist]

Da_moose,

One arm, both arms doesn't matter. No 2 fights will ever be the same. The concepts and abilities transfer to both situations. I am referring to when someone has superior position on you, and you want to turn the tables. It could be one arm, both arms, one leg plus both arms, etc. The point that I am making is how to turn the tables from a losing point to a winning point. I know idealy you want to always be in the better posistion, but the truth is you cannot always control that.

Xia03 Meng4 said:


with that said, when you're in a clinch, the initiative of both fighters is comprimised.. kind of in limbo. Whoever finds their centre first will generally win the initiative through whatever means.. grappling or striking, or both.

Exactly, until they put me out for good the fight is still going on. Even though, at some point I may be in inferior position that does not mean I have lost the fight. I think that a lot of people just give up and restart the sparring match once superior ground is gained or once it goes to the ground. That is not the end of the fight. When I get thrown down, I try to take my opponet with me everytime. I try to then gain superior position everytime. When I am getting wailed on by lots of offensive attacks I try to reverse the role. Sometimes it works, sometimes I get stomped. Thats how fighting goes.

So, now on to the point at hand. Last ditch efforts, or making a commited move can make your position change from worse off to better off. I think one of the worst things about sparring is when you think back on it when you lose, you realize what else you could have done. That is the stuff I am trying to get out. Now, I always try last ditch effort techniques when losing, and sometimes they really pay off and I gain the position needed to win.

[anerlich]

I see neither the need to get highly specific nor the need to always talk in absolutes and generalities. Sometimes the analysis of specific techniques gives a better understanding of the principles behind them. Give a beginning student something simple he can do that works and follows a principle or two is far better than verbally browbeating him with principles and terminology that he can't see an application for yet.

I see a 'trap' as being a situation where, momentarily or for longer, you are unable to effectively use either arm. If your adversary has an underhook on your left arm and is controlling your bicep/delivery system of your right arm with the same (his right) hand giving him a window of opportunity to blast you with a left hand or elbow, that's as valid a trap as the cross-up, but that's only one example.

The more obvious crossed arm trap is a fundamental strategy is TWC, and William Cheung and some of his senior instructors are EXTREMELY proficient with it. He has a way of getting you crossed up with both his forearms controlling yours while palmstriking you with both hands at 6-8 strikes per second into oblivion. Scary. but this is far from the only possible means to 'trap'.

If you've got the the situation where both arms and one leg are tied up, your standard WC strategy has probably failed you. Time to move to the bil jee "emergency" technique mode. Moving along the same path using the same strategy ain't going to cut it. You may need to break some rules momentarily. Some things you can do are:

Change your level, as alluded to by namron.

Change your shape - twisting or leaning to one side or the rear may free an arm or elbow and allow you to retaliate or recover. Yes you may wear one if you break structure, but you will probably wear many more if you stay where you are!

Change your distance - create space to free yourself and change the dynamic.

Change your angle - your foot is trapped, but if you can zone away from the incoming strikes you may be able to escape or at least mitigate their effect.

You may still be able to strike with shoulder, hip or head if your arms are tied up. Don't discount these possiblities. Slam him hard enough with your shoulder he may try to grab you to retain balance ... go for double underhooks and a body lock/stepover takedown.


when you're in a clinch, the initiative of both fighters is comprimised.. kind of in limbo.

Nahhh ... if the guy that's put you there is a Muay Thaiist, wrestler, sambist or BJJ guy, your initiative might be in limbo, but his is just getting into Hog Heaven ready to lay the smackdown on you. Or if he's a WC guy with better sensitivity and flow ... think GM Cheung feels his initiative is in limbo in this situation?

Bear in mind if the other guy is more skilled than you (likely since he got you this far in the first place), or if you get trapped too deep, you may end up wearing it no matter what you do. But you still have to TRY ....

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Originally posted by anerlich

Nahhh ... if the guy that's put you there is a Muay Thaiist, wrestler, sambist or BJJ guy, your initiative might be in limbo, but his is just getting into Hog Heaven ready to lay the smackdown on you. Or if he's a WC guy with better sensitivity and flow ... think GM Cheung feels his initiative is in limbo in this situation?


Losing the initiative relates to no longer adopting a predatory approach to the situation. Trapping someone by simply immobilizing their arms is often very effective, because one of the first things a normal person does is flinch and try to get their arms back. This takes their focus away from the rest of the situation, both structurally and mentally, as they struggle to get some kind of control into their arms, forgetting that they have a whole body to work with. This goes for any part of the body that is being structurally comprimised.

When trapped, it may be true that your arms are temporarily immobilized, but the physical structure doing the trapping on you is also committed, and creates a bridge through which you can, if you're centred, transfer solid energy into the other person's structure. lan sau, Kwan Sau, or any other bridge that may be there can achieve a similar effect as trapping by making the trapper flinch and focus on their own body as they try to regain their structure.

Whether it be Muay Thai, BJJ, or high level wing chun, if you can make your opponent flinch, either by trapping or jarring or throwing or whatever, you have the opportunity to regain the initiative. If you can keep from flinching (in a tactical way, not a catatonic way,) no matter what the situation, the chances of making your opponent flinch are much greater.

As for GM Cheung... I don't think he's had to flinch in a long time. :)



Bear in mind if the other guy is more skilled than you (likely since he got you this far in the first place), or if you get trapped too deep, you may end up wearing it no matter what you do. But you still have to TRY ....

Good luck sometimes comes to those who dare.

[Da_Moose]

Gangsterfist,
I understand that no two fights will ever be the same. By the same token though, some specific references in the scenario need to be given. Otherwise, like I said, it is too open ended for an actual technical discussion. if I have one arm trapped, I have another arm free to potentially challenge my assailant. This is quite different than having both arms trapped and needing to free them before mounting a counter attack. If a checked leg is added to the mix, say two trapped arms, you have both high and low issues to deal with before even beginning to attack your assailant. Recovery of superior position is highly unlikely against a well trained fighter as they will most likely finish you before you can free yourself. I know I would. If you move, I'm going to stick to you and control you, not let you get free. Granted, you're not always going to be in the best position, but depending on this one, it is tough to escape from with so much influence being exerted on you.

"I think that a lot of people just give up and restart the sparring match once superior ground is gained or once it goes to the ground. That is not the end of the fight."

Here, you're contradicting yourself a bit. Are you talking about a sparring match, or a fight? The two are not interchangeable. Sparring implies rules, fight implies anything goes. Which is it? This is important.

"What are some ways you would reverse a bad situation?"

You need to define one for us, you asked, yes?


Regards,
Steve

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Xiao3 Meng4
[B]An important element to remember when developing standup skill is the maintenance of initiative. If both of your arms are trapped, and one leg is immobilized, then it would seem to me that your initiative is lost. Your question on how to regain this initiative is valid,
B]

ok..so how's this for a soloution?? you jump on some dim mak set up point in the dudes foot, do a follow up foot strike while he's releasing your arms, bob's your uncle mary's your aunty and the game is over my friend...you have him totally vulnerable and from there can do whatever the hell you want???

but if you have both legs recoverabley free, I'm doing my best takedown, again freeing arms, maybe a roll if necc, and situation is same as above...ish

[anerlich]

X3M4,

OK that makes more sense. Though I would venture that you need not always use the bridge between your trapped limb and the other guy to "transfer energy" - it may be just as, or more, valid to break structure and re-attack on another line, or level. Or maybe not.

The thing about "using what you have, not what you want", e.g. hitting him with what is free rather than fixating on what is trapped, is mainstream BJJ strategy. This comes back to maintenance of initiative, continuing your strategy along different paths even if he manages to stmie it in one particular direction.

[TenTigers]

step foward.

[Gangsterfist]

How they have you trapped is not very important. You are trapped. Just for discussion purposes lets say its either one or both arms and one leg. The trapped arm(s) is putting them in superior position because if one arm is trapped they also made your other weapons (other arm) unavailable, either by position or by trapping. Either way you are in a worse off position.

As for sparring matches, that is as close as I get to real fights lately. I don't go out and pick fights to test my skills (however, that is not unheard of, I have known a few people who do stuff like that). I slow spar, and I spar at almost full contact. So, that is my best training tool when training for real fights. I realize there is a difference.

So, you are in a bad situation and have to act fast to change it or get pummeled. Biu Jee is full of these last ditch effort techniques. I am trying to discuss how they (or any other technique from any other system) can be applied in real situations. We have had some students from another school come crosstrain with us these last couple of weeks, and I am not used to fighting bagua, hsing-i, and judo (that is what the other school teaches) practitioners. So, I find myself doing more extreme techniques because some of their moves throw me off a bit.