Everybody hates TCMA

[PT-Kali]

First, it's all the MMA guys, then it's BJJ, and now from reading some earlier posts it's San Shou.

I can understand the "My Art is Best" philosophy (after all I picked it so it's the best art to train in) :rolleyes:

These types of cycles happen, in the '40s it was jujutsu, in the '50s it was judo, in the '60s it was karate, in the '70s it was kung fu, in the '80s it was ninjutsu, '90s BJJ, etc.

MMA is a fad, a trend if you will. And if you think San Shou will be the end-all-be-all, it won't (to me it looks like a souped-up '70s style kickboxing).

[Losttrak]

I believe San Shou lives in the shadow of MMA. Truly the future of sport fighting lies in MMA.


The only way that kung fu will become more prevalent in sport fighting is if there is a bareknuckle event that requires no pads at all. People who want to fight with kung fu want to represent the style and that can be difficult with the pads (be it an excuse or otherwise).

If I were a wealthy man, I would first of all open up another fight forum similar to pride in the US with less sensationalism and WWE pap. I would also create a bareknuckle fight forum in some place that is not bound by national law. Perhaps a massive ocean liner over international waters that broadcasts by satellite. Here we would showcase the real deal (within reason). Hehe Just a dream.

[Banjos_dad]

"And now, live from the Floating Island, somewhere in the South China Sea, we are proud to present: Kung Fu Bare Knuckle Challenge!!"

Crowd goes crazy.:cool:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PT-Kali
First, it's all the MMA guys, then it's BJJ, and now from reading some earlier posts it's San Shou.

we don't hate it. Why would you think so? Do we think some styles can use training improvements? Sure. Do we think that there are plenty of schools teaching BS? Yup. Do we get tired of the people who buy into all of the legends and mysticism? You bet. But we don't hate tcma, onle certain aspects of it.

I can understand the "My Art is Best" philosophy (after all I picked it so it's the best art to train in) :rolleyes:

That has nothing to do with it.

These types of cycles happen, in the '40s it was jujutsu, in the '50s it was judo, in the '60s it was karate, in the '70s it was kung fu, in the '80s it was ninjutsu, '90s BJJ, etc.

yeah, but the thing to remember is that the mainstream is visual, and unitiated to MA. they were presented with those styles, liked them and fell in love. the mainstream may get turned back on to wushu, especially if it's in the olympics, but people interested in fighting won't go running to modern wushu.

MMA is a fad, a trend if you will. And if you think San Shou will be the end-all-be-all, it won't (to me it looks like a souped-up '70s style kickboxing).

MMA is an evolution. It's the realization that in order to be the best fighter you can be, you need to be versed in all ranges of combat. That's hardly a fad. As far as san shou goes, how much experience do you have with it?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
MMA is an evolution. It's the realization that in order to be the best fighter you can be, you need to be versed in all ranges of combat. That's hardly a fad. As far as san shou goes, how much experience do you have with it? It is fad-ish, though. When the Gracies came out, everyone was like "Oh snap, groundfighting is the end-all-be-all." Then, people learned how to counter the ground stuff, so then some split and were like "Oh snap, Muay Thai is the end-all-be-all." Then people figured out you could throw, so some split and they're like "Oh snap, you also need some Judo." Then CroCop comes along and they're like, "Oh snap, high kicks can work."

Remember, kung fu started with grappling and wrestling, then evolved as people learned new skill sets and adpated to other styles.

MMA didn't like where fighting was, so they threw the baby out with the bathwater and started over from scratch. Given enough time, there will be as much variation in MMA fighters as in CMA styles.

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I'm looking forward to seeing the Canadian 5-Animals Submission Fist versus the Brazilian Black Cobra MMA style!:D :D

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have "heard" that those tradition gong sau fights still exist. Even though they are underground, I am happy that they do. Fighting in gong sau has nothing to do with fame and celebrity. It has more to do with dedication, honor and tradition. Serious fighting begins within the kwoon and the heart and mind of the practitioner; I have lamented in another thread that this aspect is on the wane. But if that is what you want, you do not have to wait for some ass-ossociation to do it for you. Get together with your training brothers and work it!! If your kwoon won't allow for that, find a few like minded friends and do that elsewhere. Give yourself the experience that you are looking for.

You won't be sorry.

mickey

[SevenStar]

They're underground... If they do exist, what are the chances that someone will find out where they're held, let alone get to compete in them? sport fighting has nothing to do with fame and celebrity unless that's what you're after. you can fight strictly local fights, and nobody would ever know your name. Big venues like these offer you the chance to compete with people across the world.

Go to the store and ask 20 people who noguira is. Ask them who cro cop is. Chances are, they won't know. What kind of fame and celebrity is that? The sport is growing immensely, but it's not at a point where you will become a renowned celebrity through participating.

[PHILBERT]

Today it is the Reality Based systems like SCARS, Systema, Krav Maga, and AttackProof.

As far as names go, most people don't even know who the Gracies are. I might mention them in a conversation like "Yeah I was watching this awesome NHB fight in Japan the other night called Pride, and this famous fighter name Royce Gracie fought this Japanese fighter named Kazushi Sakuraba" and they will look at me like I am nuts and be like "Who?" But if I said Mike Tyson or Lennox Lewis, they would know instantly.

What I always find funny though is that MMA fights are much cooler than boxing fights. Sure they last shorter (some last like 10 seconds), but in a boxing match, Lennox Lewis might knock his opponent out in the first round 30 seconds into it. And you just spent $30 on that fight to see a couple lightweight fights, then the big fight lasts 30 seconds. At least with UFC/Pride you see about 6 or so fights, some lasting very long (such as the 6 round Sakuraba/Gracie fight). It is nowhere near as violent, and you see a combination of kick boxing, boxing and wrestling, and the fighters go everywhere. Not just stand in the center of the ring and throw punches back and forth.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by SevenStar
They're underground... If they do exist, what are the chances that someone will find out where they're held, let alone get to compete in them? sport fighting has nothing to do with fame and celebrity unless that's what you're after. you can fight strictly local fights, and nobody would ever know your name. Big venues like these offer you the chance to compete with people across the world.

Go to the store and ask 20 people who noguira is. Ask them who cro cop is. Chances are, they won't know. What kind of fame and celebrity is that? The sport is growing immensely, but it's not at a point where you will become a renowned celebrity through participating.

Well most people know who tito ortiz and tank abbot are. And Mike Tyson has to have bodyguards to escort him.

[Popeye's dad]

F u k sport fighting. Its for sames.

[SevenStar]

What kind of fighting or training do you endorse?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


Well most people know who tito ortiz and tank abbot are. And Mike Tyson has to have bodyguards to escort him.

If the "most people" you are referring to means most MA, then yes. If yhou are referring to the general public, then no.

Yeah, Tyson does. The statement I made was in reference to MMA, not boxing. MMA has a long way to go before it's gets the level of exposure and notoriety that boxing has.

[David Jamieson]

well, I like trad chinese martial arts.

It's the politics, heirarchies, posers and guai lo covered in ideograms they can't read that bug me. LOL

But in the context of cHinese cultural relevance, I think they are cool.

Sport combatives are cool too and it would be nice to see some trads make more ground there instead of just posturing about how deadly their stuff is :rolleyes: You can do both and it is not out of order for trads to take their stuff in square circle. It was done ALL the TIME in the so called old days.

But if you really wanna know how to kill someone, it's is much more effeicient than any martial art to take a practical small arms course. I did and I know that it will work more often than dim mak! :D

cheers

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by PT-Kali
First, it's all the MMA guys, then it's BJJ, and now from reading some earlier posts it's San Shou.

Yep, that's everyone. :rolleyes:


I can understand the "My Art is Best" philosophy (after all I picked it so it's the best art to train in) :rolleyes:

That's one of the most tired arguments I've ever seen. I've studied styles based on logistical reasons (location and cost), reputation of a teacher, because I had friends there, or just because I'd seen a style and thought it was cool. I've never studied a style thinking it was The Best.


These types of cycles happen, in the '40s it was jujutsu, in the '50s it was judo, in the '60s it was karate, in the '70s it was kung fu, in the '80s it was ninjutsu, '90s BJJ, etc.

There are usually two levels to these "trends." There's the bandwagon and then there's the real thing. I'm sure in the 70s, lots of people jumped on the kung fu bandwagon. And when the wheels fell off the wagon in the 80s, those people wandered away. But that doesn't mean there aren't sincere and hard working kung fu people who got their start as a result of kung fu's popularity in the 70s.

In the early 90s, it was all about the southeast asian martial arts. Muay thai, bando, silat, eskrima, kali, etc. The martial arts magazines were covered with articles about Dr. Muang Gyi, Rudy Ter Linden, Chai Sirisute...

Does that mean your pekita tersia kali was just a fad?


MMA is a fad, a trend if you will. And if you think San Shou will be the end-all-be-all, it won't (to me it looks like a souped-up '70s style kickboxing).

You're missing the point. In the same way the bandwaggoners miss the point. The point is not to leap on BJJ or sanshou as the next 'superstyle.' Think about the reasoning process underlying the interest in those styles. People want to see as small a gap between theory and practice as possible. BJJ and sanshou are actually applied (for all to see) in accord with their principles and theory. Because their principles and theory are put to the test. That's what people are advocating. The gathering of empirical feedback rather than a reliance on theory.

And I think you'll find that most MMA types (the good ones anyway) will give TMA plenty of respect if they think that said TMA practitioner is also submitting his practice to the same sort of scrutiny (as many do).:rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
MMA is an evolution.

No. MMA is a revolution. or maybe a revelation.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by apoweyn
And I think you'll find that most MMA types (the good ones anyway) will give TMA plenty of respect if they think that said TMA practitioner is also submitting his practice to the same sort of scrutiny (as many do).:rolleyes:


Huh. I've just realized that there's a stray rolleyes guy in my post. I was wondering why nothing happened when I hit that button. Must've dropped him in at the end of my post. And such an inopportune place.

Apologies to anyone who read that (as I would have) as sarcasm on my part.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by PT-Kali


And if you think San Shou will be the end-all-be-all, it won't (to me it looks like a souped-up '70s style kickboxing).

retarded statements like this are why you don't get no respect :rolleyes:

[Face2Fist]

Originally posted by Losttrak

I would also create a bareknuckle fight forum in some place that is not bound by national law. Perhaps a massive ocean liner over international waters that broadcasts by satellite. Here we would showcase the real deal (within reason). Hehe Just a dream.

wasnt this concept done in Enter the Dragon and Bloodsport

[SevenStar]

I had a very good discussion with a tma guy last night - he trained wc for a few months, but his main style is kajukenbo. Now that he's no longer in california, he trains kenpo. he was hitting on the heavy bags monday and heard loud thuds coming from the room we were training MT in, so he stopped and watched the rest of the class. Afterwards, he commented that he had never seen power like this before. This is a BIG dude, but he's quicker on his feet than anyone his size that I've ever seen. He said that in kajukenbo, they emphasized striking fast, then getting out.

Last night, he watched a bjj class. we talked for over an hour - one of the things he mentioned was the ego he encountered in his old school. they would say things like "if you don't want to ground fight, then don't get taken down" - similar to the experiences I've had with CMA. I can tell he had some good training, but there's no room for ego like that, which he realizes. After he watched the bjj class, he was like "I've gotta do that. we don't start grappling until you reach the higher levels, and even then it's not the caliber of what you guys are doing"

he's going to stick with his tma for striking, but he wants to do some training with the MT guys, and he is going to start bjj.

[Vash]

Sounds like you came across an intelligent martial artist, 7*. The world needs more of them.

Tradition is only what you're taught. It don't go no further than that. :eek:

Wanna groundfight? Train it.

Don't wanna groundfight? Stay out of fights.

[Suntzu]

The only way that kung fu will become more prevalent in sport fighting is if there is a bareknuckle event that requires no pads at all. People who want to fight with kung fu want to represent the style and that can be difficult with the pads (be it an excuse or otherwise). even if things like insurance and regulation commissions weren't an issue..... how many people would actually show up and partake in such events?..... and IF such "deadly" technique ACTUALLY work.... after the first crop of fighters get maimed or killed.... who next?.... realistically how long would this last?.....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Suntzu
even if things like insurance and regulation commissions weren't an issue..... how many people would actually show up and partake in such events?.....

*raises hand* OOOH!! OOOH!!! I can answer that one!!!!

very few.


and IF such "deadly" technique ACTUALLY work.... after the first crop of fighters get maimed or killed.... who next?.... realistically how long would this last?.....

*raises hand* OOOH!! OOOH!!! I can answer that one too!!!!

None.

[lkfmdc]

boys and girls, children of all ages, history is our friend!

back in a place called China in 1927, the government had it's first official national sparring championship in Nanjing (that's a city)

a few funny things happened

no one blew up due to deadly chi blasts
no one was knocked out with hidden death touches
most of the successful guys basicly kicked punched and wrestled
after one round of the event, everyone was injured enough they didn't want to continue

so they voted on who they all thought would have won

now, these were hard core old school guys, but after one round of no equipment fighting they were all banged up and didn't want to continue

you think the average cream puff US student is going to do it better? :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Are you familiar with any of the fighters that participated? If so, out of curiosity, how do you think they would stack up against the mma guys that are big today?

[brassmonkey]

its not TCMA the MMA crowd hates, its the type of people on this thread who practice TCMA they hate

[Face2Fist]

Originally posted by brassmonkey
its not TCMA the MMA crowd hates, its the type of people on this thread who practice TCMA they hate

well said! i dont practice any form of TCMA or MMA and i hate most of these people . hehehe

[lkfmdc]

This was China we were talking about, so most would have been way small for an old style UFC open weight thing. My teacher was considered "big" at 160 lbs. I think they would have surprised a lot of guys, especially as they all did Shuai Jiao and would have known how to wrestle, throw and defend in the clinch. Some of teh wilder MMA types would have eaten the straight punches, my sifu fought in the 1940's against a Hsing Yi guy in Canton who basicly straight blasted and said that since he only practiced two puches every day 7 days a week, he hit HARD :)

[norther practitioner]

Back towards what 7* was saying..

I encounter that a lot more than I'd like to admit...

don't get taken down..

:rolleyes:

I'd love to continue to call myself a tcma, but I do want to get some time in with some mma type guys, and learn some ground work, but the thing is, right now, I am very time prohibitted...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Back towards what 7* was saying..

I encounter that a lot more than I'd like to admit...

don't get taken down..

:rolleyes:

I'd love to continue to call myself a tcma, but I do want to get some time in with some mma type guys, and learn some ground work, but the thing is, right now, I am very time prohibitted...
When you spar in class, and someone falls or gets thrown, what do you guys do? Follow them and try to submit, or wait for them to get up?

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

When you spar in class, and someone falls or gets thrown, what do you guys do? Follow them and try to submit, or wait for them to get up?

how about kick them in the head, or stomp on them? :p

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lkfmdc


how about kick them in the head, or stomp on them? :p Well, that too. :p

I guess I was just asking if the action stops when someone or both people hit the ground.

We keep going. While our grappling is no where near BJJ status, at least it gives me some hands-on experience, and I get some trial and error work.