Traditional Wing Chun Guys [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

FSY

04-12-2004, 03:28 PM

Dear All,

Actually, I had searched and read some of the older threads before asking my questions about the history of the TWC footwork. Most of the threads I found dealt with technical aspects, whereas I am interested more in when the footwork started (history). I feel that the technical aspects are things that one could acquire over time in class, while some of the more academic or historical aspects of the art would be perfect topics for the internet kwoon.

More specifically, I was wondering if the TWC footwork is older than Leung Jan, then was it passed down only to him from his uncle? Has a modified system which was taught to most students (except the heir of the system) always existed?

I'm aware (due to reading older threads and from other sources) that some people think that GM Cheung made up the footwork, and I realize the potential for some guys to get bent out of shape by reading something that is contrary to what they've learned. However, I was addressing the questions strictly to TWC practioners or guys who have historical knowledge of the beginnings of the footwork and its dissemination. I would hope that anyone with no information about the footwork could just sit back and read or just skip the thread altogether, rather than particpate in another 'my style is better than yours' debate.

I am not trying to "resolve" anything. I think that the intentions of a troll are to stir up trouble and to resolve (have the last word, at least in their mind) a particular issue. I am STRICTLY (and sincerely) trying to trace the beginnings of the TWC footwork because this is interesting to me, and for no other reasons.

I feel that the internet is a powerful tool that allows individuals from all over the globe to share information about a particular subject. It would be a shame if we, as martial artists, couldn't discuss topics like this one without resorting to flaming and namecalling. People in other disciplines, such as medicine, are able to do it all the time.

I thank you in advance for any information you take the time to share. However, if it turns out that this issue is just too much of a "can of worms" then I'll humbly apologize for starting it and seek my answers elsewhere. Peace.

45degree fist

04-12-2004, 03:49 PM

wait listen....
Ahh yes the sound of panties getting bunched up.
hahaha
just kidding guys:D

anerlich

04-12-2004, 05:20 PM

My understanding of this version of history is that pre-Leung Jan WC had the "traditional" footwork all the way back to Yim wing Chun/Ng Mui; Leung Jan taught the "modified" version to Chan Wa Soon and kept the good stuff for his sons, including Leung Bik.

Every version of WC history I've ever seen is self-serving and political, this is unlikely to be different.

Jim Roselando

04-13-2004, 07:42 AM

Hello,

This topic has gone thru the grinders on a few occassions.

Leung Jan sifu taught more family members than just his sons. He also taught his nephew in Koo Lo!

Leung Wai Nam is Leung Jan sifu's great grandson who is still connected to Leung Jan sifu's Wing Chun decendants.

Gotta run!

FooFighter

04-13-2004, 07:43 AM

When I examine Wing Chun and look for quality, I hold it to its main centeral theory which is the science of ecomony of motion/energy that simultaneously covers and attacks in the shortest distance possible. If it doesnt conform to this theory, than it doesnt hold true to its name.

From what I see TWC footwork is more dynamic than western boxing and even wing chun as known by many Yip Man older students. Yet in my opinion doesnt obey the central theory of wing chun gung fu. Most of the TWC's fancy foot work is done from a side neutral stance which I dont see as practical stance in fighting especially in MMA fighting. The foot work of wing chun is similar to western boxing, but different. I have heard arguments that wing chun's foot work is lacking, but would you say the same for western boxing or other striking arts? The more fancy you get the more energy and motion is wasted.

As to your historical questions about TWC's footwork, it all conjecture and seconded stories which we can not abolsutely without a doubt confirm. All we have is indirect evidence and yet the possiblity of truth I am afraid will never been certain. What matter however is can people work their skills under real pressure.

FSY

04-13-2004, 09:01 AM

Anerlich and Jim R,

Thanks for the info. It 's looking more and more like Leung Jan Sifu was one of the first to apparently teach two versions. I wonder if this was also common practice among other styles, such as Hung-Ga, in those days or if Leung Jan came up with the idea on his own.

I didn't even know that Leung Jan Sifu had a great grandson who is teaching Wing Chun. This raises more interesting questions:

Did he learn from Leung Bik? Is he teaching publically or privately? In Hong Kong? Are there any old documents that record some of Wing Chun's history which were passed down from father to son? I'd like to investigate this further; not to prove or disprove anthing--simply to satisfy my own curiosity.

I'd love to get over to the mainland (China) to see some of the Wing Chun guys there. Even though Leung Ting's lineage isn't the one I'm learning, I purchased his book "The Roots of Wing Chun." It has some fascinating pictures of where Leung Jan used to practice herbal medicine, as well as some photographs of different masters performing some of the forms.

Thanks for keeping things civilized guys!

Jim Roselando

04-13-2004, 09:45 AM

Hello FSY,

Thanks for the info.

No problem.

It 's looking more and more like Leung Jan Sifu was one of the first to apparently teach two versions. I wonder if this was also common practice among other styles, such as Hung-Ga, in those days or if Leung Jan came up with the idea on his own.

I would have to agree & disagree with your conclusion from the replies. The only two versions that can be proven is Leung Jan's Futshan pupils decendants and his Koo Lo pupils decendants WC of which both are similar as he (Leung Jan sifu) stated this to be the case. When it comes to this topic you are best to avoid the historical/marketing stuff and see which art fits you best! They all have something to offer!

Best of luck with your research!

Regards,

Nick Forrer

04-13-2004, 09:58 AM

hi

The question seems to be not so much whether L Jan taught two different versions of WC but whether he in fact taught three.

After all there is the WC he taught Chan wa sun- i.e. yip man WC (or what most of Yip mans students practice- despite differences in execution, the number and sequence of the hand forms are pretty much the same-except where the students themselves have changed them) and there is the WC he taught in koloo (sp?) village when he retired- this has not three hand forms but one (look for the recent thread entitled Dai Nim Tao for more info). Then there is William cheungs Wing chun which may or may not be another version from Leung Jan. What is true, as has been pointed out many times, is that parallel but seperate lines of WC that trace their roots back to Leung Jans teacher wong wah bo e.g. the YKS line, have more in common with Chan Wa Sun WC than Wlliam Cheungs Wing Chun. This means (leaving out the possibility that Wong wah bo taught more than one version of WC) that either Leung Jan made up TWC, or Leung Bik did (assuming of course that he existed, and that he did WC and that he taught Yip man), or Yip Man did or William Cheung did.

That said the recent emergence of HFY wing chun and some of the heavy similarities with TWC raises a number of questions e.g. did William cheung learn HFY, if so was it from Yip man or someone else etc.

On a personal note I once saw a video of a secret WC conference in China in which many different lines got up and showed their forms. All I will say is that there were massive differences (relatively speaking its all WC after all) between how they did things and how the HK students do things.

Phil Redmond

04-13-2004, 11:20 AM

FooFighter,
There is no fancy footwork in TWC. Just live foot work. I studied and fought duinr my 13 years in other Yip Man WC school. I can say without a doubt that the TWC wroks better, 'for me' in dealing with fighters outside of WC especially boxers which usually give WC people a hard time.

FSY

04-13-2004, 11:23 AM

It seems that tracing the origin of certain concepts is a difficult thing to do in the Chinese martial arts. I guess that part of this is due to the lack of readily available tangible evidence from the good ol' days, such as books and other documents. That's a shame for guys who like the philosophical/historical elements of a particular system as much as the technical aspects.

Reading that Leung Jan only taught one form (Dai Nim Tao) in the village he retired in was interesting--thanks Nick! Now, in addition to the issue of footwork, I'm curious as to when in history Wing Chun "officially" obtained three different forms. Does anyone know of any record showing that the SNT, CK, and BJ forms all existed before Leung Jan? I wonder if there is anything tracing the forms all the way back to Ng Mui and/or Shaolin.

P.S. Foo Fighter and Others: With all due respect, I wasn't asking about the efficiency of TWC footwork. The purpose of this thread is NOT to convince anyone of anything. Nothing. I am simply trying to take advantage of the wealth of information concerning historical evidence/documents that may or may not be out there. I really DON'T want this thread to degenerate into the typical 'oneupsmanship' that is all too common in our little world. Please, Please, PLEASE understand that subjective comments might rub others the wrong way to the point where they feel that they have to respond.

I'd much rather have factual information (or no information at all) instead of opinions which may be misconstrued by others. Thanks.

Phil Redmond

04-13-2004, 11:26 AM

I am qualified to teach the version or versions of WC that most, not all, do. I choose not to. I do what I feel works best across the board. That being said, I'm not simply a WC man, I'm a martial artist. I use what works regardless of origin. If TWC didn't work for me I wouldn't have stayed in it for 21 years. The bottom line is use what works for you personally without belittling other stylists.

Ultimatewingchun

04-13-2004, 11:32 AM

Hi...This is Leung Bik.

In my astral form - of course. My soul is resting at the moment...in-between earthly incarnations.

Yes - I really did exist (this notion to the contrary really cracks me up, in fact).

Yes - I really was the son of Leung Jan...and...

Yes - I really did teach Yip Man for a few years when he was attending school in Hong Kong.

But what I taught him...well...

That's between us.

Sorry guys...but you'll just have to "do the work" if you think there might be some differences worth knowing about.

Check out the systems in question carefully...not the alleged histories.

After all - some historians have actually convinced themselves that I didn't even exist.

Get the picture?

Sayonara.

Just kidding...Wanted to see if you were paying attention.

Because if you don't pay strict attention to the DETAILS...you'll miss all that heavenly glory.

Jim Roselando

04-13-2004, 12:22 PM

Hello FSY,

It seems that tracing the origin of certain concepts is a difficult thing to do in the Chinese martial arts.

Yes and no. It all depends on how many sources you can pull from and find the most common versus the less common. Now a days we Wing Chun junkies have many sources so its a lot easier than the pre-video/internet days.

I guess that part of this is due to the lack of readily available tangible evidence from the good ol' days, such as books and other documents.

True but now a days this is not the case or its not as difficult.

That's a shame for guys who like the philosophical/historical elements of a particular system as much as the technical aspects.

True but keep in mind we have loads of info. to read and cross reference today. God bless the net!

I'd much rather have factual information (or no information at all) instead of opinions which may be misconstrued by others.

Thats the key! Show the known/traceable facts and stylistic info. from numerous known/traceable lineages back to the Red Boat and thats a good place to start!

Please keep in mind that all arts have their good and bad regardless of stories/marketing. It does no good to have something original or old if it is useless. Find a good teacher and feel how each art is applied/fits and cultivates your body.

BTW: The one form Leung Jan taught in Koo Lo was not a form at all! Check out the Dai Nim Tau thread that was around not long ago! That should help you with that info..

Best of luck!

FSY

04-13-2004, 01:28 PM

Jim,

I've seen a reference to these boats in a bunch of sources concerning Wing Chun. It seems from what I've read so far that very little in the form of a written record of Wing Chun exists from the time of the Red Boats. That's too bad.

The "Dai Nim Tao" thread was interesting. Thanks for pointing it out. From what I've gathered so far, it appears that in Wing Chun, just like Hung-Ga, there are three major lineages: Two big branches and a village branch. Does the Village system of Wing Chun also incorporate some of the footwork found in TWC? Do practioners use the wooden dummy? I'll be getting over to China sometime next year; it looks like Fatshan is one of the places I'd like to visit. Is the village (Koo Lo ?) nearby?

FooFighter

04-13-2004, 02:16 PM

Redmond

Please pardon my semantics which may lead to confusion. My english isnt that good. Out of all the martial arts I have read and studied and practiced: Jeet Kune Do, Western boxing, Flippino, Wing Chun Gung Fu, TWC is by far fancy in its footwork when you compare the foot work of other styles.

"Just live foot work"? The Wing Chun I have seen and practiced by Duncan Leung and Alan Lee is by far impressive and dynamic, yet simple. I have noticed you have studied with Duncan Leung and I dont know if you have witnessed his footwork, but surely his application and footwork is no better or worst than TWC?

Under the central theory that WC is "the science of economy of motion that simultaneously covers and attacks in the short path possible", I have to say that in my opinion that TWC doesnt obey this centeral theory however it has worked for others such as yourself.

I have met Duncan Leung and Alan Lee's students and trust me their footwork and application work in dealing with fighters outside of WC especially boxers which usually give "some" TWC people a hard time.

I do not doubt in my heart that there are authentic versions of Wing Chun out there with extra stuff such as footwork. My mind is open to that possiblity and there is indirect evidence showing this to be the case. However, I personally believe that William Cheung learned a MainLand version of Wing Chun by someone instead his account that the Old Man taught him the real deal while cheating others?

Redmond, I have too much respect for others to put anyone down and I hope you understand I aint knocking down TWC's footwork, but stating my opinion which is different from some here.

Phil Redmond

04-13-2004, 04:58 PM

Foo, having trained in both I beg to differ. There is NOTHING fancy about our foortwork. Until you've understood the application of it you'll probably continue to believe what you believe. With regards to what Yip Man taught or didn't teach Wm. Cheung when they lived under the same roof for over 3 years we'll never really know. Will we?

yuanfen

04-13-2004, 04:59 PM

FSY sez:

Two big branches and a village branch.

((Sorry that is not a good or accurate summary of the wing chun world.
Since your question was originally directed to TWC origins and Anerlich gave a succint answer- I stayed out of it after Andrew's comment.. But I know that thread like this end up meandering all over the place.
Leung Shun's wing chun tradition, Wong Shon Leung's and Ho Kam Ming's and tsui Tsong Tin's are not part of any village branch. While there are some differences among the above they are certainly quite different from Leung Ting"s WT or William Cheung's TWC.))

Does the Village system of Wing Chun also incorporate some of the footwork found in TWC? Do practioners use the wooden dummy?

((Some of the "village systems" pay little attention to TWC footwork .. and some have considerable footwork of their own.
They all use the mook jong.
Brief generalizations about wing chun are often incorrect and even articles and books can be quite incomplete.))

yuanfen/joy

anerlich

04-13-2004, 05:20 PM

FooFighter,

You've stated that (I paraphrase) "most TWC footwork comes from the side neutral stance", and "Boxers cause TWC people lots of problems."

TWC schools make varying use of the side neutral stance; some (my Sifu's academy, for one) no longer use it at all.

TWC footwork is not flowery or ornate, it is simple and direct. There are many similarities between my Sifu's teaching and Jack Dempsey's approach as detailed in "Championship Fighting". The only steps which could possibly be regarded as flowery or ornate are the T step and exchange step, used in TWC to, among other things, to set up and evade kicks and to allow changing of the lead - boxing has no kicks and hardly any boxers change their leads, and thus do not need such things.

My Sifu has trained with boxers for a long time and now teaches boxing alongside TWC, and had 37 pro and over a hundred amateur successful kickboxing fights against kickboxers and various KF stylists, plenty of whom used boxing footwork. My sihing, Alf del-Brocco, trained a student with no prior boxing experience, to win several amateur boxing bouts using straight TWC footwork.

Basically your assertions about TWC are unfounded and ill-informed. I am sure Messrs Leung and Lee are good at what they do, please stick to styles you actually know something about in future discussions rather than making false and rather insulting generalisations about TWC. People may otherwise suspect you of trolling.

Regarding TWC/HFY and GM Cheung training in secret on the mainland, everyone involved denies any association and now that "Mastering Kung fu" is out we can safely (and gladly) say that the two are not connected.

Jim,

I didn't mean to imply that Leung Jan didn't teach anyone besides his family and Chan Wah Soon. These are just the main players on the YM/TWC "history". Sorry for the confusion.

Ultimatewingchun

04-13-2004, 05:32 PM

foofighter:

After your latest post I now understand where you're coming from about TWC...you took me by surprise with your sudden outbursts out of the blue on the last thread you and I conversed on...but now it's clear to me who you might be and what your motives are.

So who...EXACTLY...are you talking about when you say that "some boxers which usually give 'some' TWC people a hard time?"

Anybody TWC people Phil Redmond and myself might know?

And how long have you been training on Farrington Street?

Nick Forrer

04-14-2004, 02:46 AM

'Regarding TWC/HFY and GM Cheung training in secret on the mainland, everyone involved denies any association and now that "Mastering Kung fu" is out we can safely (and gladly) say that the two are not connected.'

Andrew- Honest question (just curious and feel free to ignore it) but why are you so sure? I read Mastering KF and they sure looked similiar to me- but then again I have not studied either of them and can only go on my own (very limited) experience. Could you be more specific?

FooFighter

04-14-2004, 05:58 AM

I do not want to cause any discussion what method is better and I am not trolling. TWC or Modified WC can work for some and it cant work for others. I have wrote that if you can work it, then work it.

Originally, Mr. Redmond wrote originally that some nonTWC may run into trouble with a boxers and by using his TWC that it has helped fight against boxers. Granted, this his own personal experience which is valid which I wont discount or insult. However the reverse could be applied as well, correct? My own personal exerience has shown that "some" past TWC students also ran into problems with boxers and I also know NON-TWC (Duncan Leung/Alan Lee) artists who had effective soultions against boxers. So, I dont understand some you TWC people are reacting so badly to my comments? It is not my intention to insult your style, but to give a healthy balance of experience which is valid in its own right.

Victor, I will not drop names of the past TWC students that I have known to have failed to counter against boxers because it is rather pointless and not valid to judge the style or race based on these isolated cases. I think many low minded people use these isolated cases to prove their arguments, merits, and abilities. I think too highly of myself as a decent human being to use such illogical thinking. For example, What does it matter that some modified wing chun are kick arse fighters? Does that disprove TWC? NO. It proves nothing for TWC or WC. I have been a student of Alan Lee for about three years. I wouldnt say I am his best student and there are far most superior students than me. However, if he gave me anything is good understanding of Wing Chun theory which all due to his socratic methodology.

PS: I do not have any other motive than expressing my opinion in a civilized manner. Some who have addressed me aggressively and very condensingly just because I expressed an opinion different from their paradigms. You don't know me or my personal background in wing chun. Just because someone disagree you, doesnt mean he or she is a troller, ignorant, or out to get to insult your style. No one should speak condensendingly to anyone here because everyone here has something unique to offer to the table.

black and blue

04-14-2004, 06:19 AM

The question should not be how many variants of WCK Leung Jan taught, the question should be why Yip Man taught a whole host of variants? There is some marked differences between YM lineages... more than just a few different movements in the forms.

We are, after all, not even sure that Yip Man gained any further knowledge from any specific person when he was in Hong Kong. Some say yay, some say nay. (as shocking as it will seem, there are some in China who claim Yip Man didn't learn the complete system, that he was lacking.... but hey, these things are easy to say, hehehe)

I think it was Yuenfan who, in an earlier thread, described Yip Man as being 'a complex man'.

Would it not be fairer to say he was an irresponsible man, with regards his teaching of WCK? Many say he was responsible for spreading the art... there are some who might think him responsible for dragging it down. Today's reflection aint so pretty in many cases.

Jim Roselando

04-14-2004, 07:47 AM

FSY,

I've seen a reference to these boats in a bunch of sources concerning Wing Chun. It seems from what I've read so far that very little in the form of a written record of Wing Chun exists from the time of the Red Boats. That's too bad.

Written records are nice but in all honesty can't show what was and is more likely rather than not. Stylistic comparison of numerous known lineages that can be traced back to the Red Boats is the best way to look at things.

The "Dai Nim Tao" thread was interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

I believe Nick pointed that out but glad you liked it.

From what I've gathered so far, it appears that in Wing Chun, just like Hung-Ga, there are three major lineages: Two big branches and a village branch.

Not sure about this. There really is one major lineage! Which stems from Grandmaster Yip Man. All else would be significantly less known. After that you would have Yuen Kay San's/Sum Nung WC lineage, Pan Nam's WC lineage, Yiu Koi, Koo Lo, Yik Kam etc. Now, if you are talking about 3 major lineages stemming from Wong Wah Bo then that would be Yip Man, Yuen Kay San and Koo Lo.

Does the Village system of Wing Chun also incorporate some of the footwork found in TWC?

There are only a few things/terms that we do/use that would be considerred similar to TWC and while they may seem similar they are indeed different. We use a different engine and some of those similar things are also applied differently. TWC footwork? It is different from the known Wong Wah Bo lineages.

Do practioners use the wooden dummy?

From day one.

I'll be getting over to China sometime next year; it looks like Fatshan is one of the places I'd like to visit. Is the village (Koo Lo ?) nearby?

I believe its about 45 minutes from Futshan. You may want to visit Fung Keung in Hong Kong before just showing up in Koo Lo as you would probally not find the WC without intro.. Best of luck with your studies!

Regards,

Jim Roselando

04-14-2004, 07:54 AM

Hello Anerlich,

Jim,

I didn't mean to imply that Leung Jan didn't teach anyone besides his family and Chan Wah Soon. These are just the main players on the YM/TWC "history". Sorry for the confusion.

No confusion amigo! I know what you were talking about! :D

I was just adding to the discussion!

Have a good one!

Greetz,

yuanfen

04-14-2004, 07:55 AM

black and blue sez(comments in brackets)):

The question should not be how many variants of WCK Leung Jan taught, the question should be why Yip Man taught a whole host of variants?

((Why?))

There is some marked differences between YM lineages... more than just a few different movements in the forms.

((So---? Within a few years---there were widely differing interpretations of Plato, the Bible, Hegel, Marx, Method acting,
great dance teachers...Balanchine))

We are, after all, not even sure that Yip Man gained any further knowledge from any specific person when he was in Hong Kong.

((So?))

Some say yay, some say nay. (as shocking as it will seem, there are some in China who claim Yip Man didn't learn the complete system, that he was lacking.... but hey, these things are easy to say, hehehe)

((Not shocking at all. Put downs are part of life))

I think it was Yuenfan who, in an earlier thread, described Yip Man as being 'a complex man'.

((Wearily-its yuanfen- just as it is not block and boo))

Would it not be fairer to say he was an irresponsible man, with regards his teaching of WCK?

((Why? Does he owe you anything?))

Many say he was responsible for spreading the art...

((His art was good enough that folks who even got pieces of it-
helped spread it))

there are some who might think him responsible for dragging it down. Today's reflection aint so pretty in many cases.

((characteristic of opinions- everyone has one. "Pretty"?
Warts are part of life-the whole makeup industry banks on it))

yuanfen

FSY

04-14-2004, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
FSY sez:

Two big branches and a village branch.

((Sorry that is not a good or accurate summary of the wing chun world.
Since your question was originally directed to TWC origins and Anerlich gave a succint answer- I stayed out of it after Andrew's comment.. But I know that thread like this end up meandering all over the place.
Leung Shun's wing chun tradition, Wong Shon Leung's and Ho Kam Ming's and tsui Tsong Tin's are not part of any village branch. While there are some differences among the above they are certainly quite different from Leung Ting"s WT or William Cheung's TWC.))

Does the Village system of Wing Chun also incorporate some of the footwork found in TWC? Do practioners use the wooden dummy?

((Some of the "village systems" pay little attention to TWC footwork .. and some have considerable footwork of their own.
They all use the mook jong.
Brief generalizations about wing chun are often incorrect and even articles and books can be quite incomplete.))

yuanfen/joy

Yuanfen,

What I meant by "two big branches and a village branch" was that it appears to me that, in general, one could look at Wing Chun consisting of the Hong Kong group or "branch" (Yip Man lineage), Mainland group of systems (branch), and the village branch. Of course I realize that this would probably be an oversimplification of things because, for example, the Yip Man branch is actually many different systems, some of which are vastly different from one another. However, in general, are these three main groups (HK, Mainland, and Village) the branches of Wing Chun, or are there others that I'm missing? I'm trying to get it straight in my mind. Thanks.

Ultimatewingchun

04-14-2004, 08:06 AM

Foofighter:

And it was about three years ago that a certain young man who had been in my school about 8-9 months came in one day and made a big dramatic show to me about how he can't train with me anymore because the TWC he was learning failed him when he met up with another wing chun student from a diffrent school who had been studying about 1.5 years...

and I showed him the door - after explaining to him the absurdity of his expectations...and was always trying to calm down the absolute impatience he always exhibited about wanting to learn and do everything by yesterday when he was in my class...

I found out later that he joined Alan Lee's school on Farringting Street, in Flushing, Queens.

So welcome to the forum....Tran (Bao Dinh Tran).

You recently told us on the "Why Catch Wrestling is Inferior" thread that you don't attend any schools anymore - for personal reasons...now you're telling us otherwise...

And your passive/aggressive behavior (see your last two posts for the latest examples) belie a very disturbed mind - trying to convince everybody that he's NOT DOING AND SAYING the very things that it is so clear he is doing and saying.

Stop wasting people's time with foolish insults and childish behavior...okay, Tran?

black and blue

04-14-2004, 08:17 AM

Yuanfen - Firstly, sorry for the badly spelled name.... if it makes you any happier you are most welcome to call me Block and Boo... it is apt! :)

Hate posts with a million quotes, so rather than quoting you quoting me and then adding my response... I'll just add little snippets ;)

(yuanfen)Why?

Well, because it is surely hard to understand where TWC is coming from in relation to Leung Jan, when most of the YM WCK community is not sure where what comes from YM. It seems to make more sense (to me) to start closer to home. IMO the only way to know what came from Leung Jan is to look at those who learnt directly from him.... YM WCK confuses the issue.

(yuanfen)So?

So... the point is that if we are asking Qs about Leung Jan and footwork etc, we will surely get no where looking to YM. Everyone from the YM camp says he taught them something different. Madness. Concepts and footwork vary beyond belief... is confusing to say the least.

(yuanfen) So? (regarding what YM learned in HK)

So, again... the issue of TWC and YM and LJ is pie-in-the-sky. Better to look to YM and the various lines that spring from him and leave LJ to people like Jim R.... IMO.

(yuanfen) Not shocking at all. Put downs are part of life.

Indeed. I mentioned it because.... well, I don't know why I mentioned it really. Scratch it from the record... heheheh..... it was just an interesting conversation I had with someone who had had exposure to some mainland WCK.

(yuanfen) Why? Does he owe you anything?

I don't like this double standard. Anyone who teaches surely owes something to the students, just as those who learn owe a great deal to their teacher. You often talk about the poor standard of some WCK today... it doesn't help when what was learnt from YM was a mixed bag.

Opinions are, of course, just opinions....

yuanfen

04-14-2004, 08:19 AM

FST sez;
What I meant by "two big branches and a village branch" was that it appears to me that, in general, one could look at Wing Chun consisting of the Hong Kong group or "branch" (Yip Man lineage), Mainland group of systems (branch), and the village branch. Of course I realize that this would probably be an oversimplification of things because,
-----------------------------------------------
Thanks for the clarification. i see where you are coming from.
Still--- an oversimplification.

Martial arts generalizations/history-old or contemporary are riddled with problems of objectivity and methodology. Wing chun has very little written material. Much is gossip and rumor.
In arts where there is more "literature" like taichi still has considerable problems. So many different kinds of taichi and people are still inventing their versions....besides chen, yang, wu 1, wu 2, sun etc. Even though its farily clear now that Chen is the mother---there are folks who claim a different mystical founder
and some of the chen man ching folks dont think that chen is taichi!!

Read whatever one can, examine whatever one can and make up one's own mind---is the way most open-it seems to me.
Best not to let 9 blind men describe the elephant.

yuanfen

PaulH

04-14-2004, 08:42 AM

Victor,

You got the wrong bird! Bao, more than likely known as Mr. Bao, has a quintessential Vietnamese?-English style of writing that is quite different to the current active list of WCposters. I haven't seen his writings on the WCwall here for quite a while.

Regards,
PH

P.S. I don't know Bao personally, but he seems a sincere and passionate fellow. As he stopped posting here quite a long time ago, I think he should rest in peace and tranquility. =)

Ultimatewingchun

04-14-2004, 10:09 AM

PaulH:

The name I gave (Bao Dinh Tran) came from an enrollment book that I have my students fill out in their own handwriting when they first join my school.

Name,address,phone,date of birth...and the date of their first class.

I'm really convinced that foofighter is the young man who liked to be called Tran...and I'm convinced for a number of reasons.

PaulH

04-14-2004, 10:25 AM

Victor,

I guess Foofighter hold the answer to the mystery then. =)

Regards,
PH

FooFighter

04-14-2004, 12:04 PM

Parlati:

You have given people my full name, LOL. I have a vietnamese/chinese background. Yes, I am the same man you described without all the insulting comments. Yes, I am also known as Mr. Bao.

Now if I had the respect you tell you personally that I wont continue training with you, then it out of respect that I didnt revel my identity to prevent problems based on our past history. None of my past comments were childish or disrespectful and I have also shown class and respect for all people.

None of past statements were untrue or passive aggressive. I am just a civilized man trying to express my opinions without ego and dogma.

Bao

Ultimatewingchun

04-14-2004, 12:18 PM

Well...Tran...at least you were man enough to admit who you are.

BUT THE TROLL-LIKE QUALITY OF YOUR POSTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES !!!

PaulH

04-14-2004, 12:29 PM

Bao,

I am somewhat pleasantly surprised! You has tremendously improved your English in style and substance- very short and to the point in contrast to those sentimental undertoned past posts! Thanks for clearing up the mystery! I now bow in submission to the victorous catcher who shame me at my most presumptous post! Guess I need more work on the stance! Ha! Ha!

Regards,
PH

Ultimatewingchun

04-14-2004, 12:59 PM

PaulH:

I'm beginning to see why Ernie likes you so much!

PaulH

04-14-2004, 01:19 PM

I like your candid New Yorker way too, Victor! It's refreshing! Everything that I am on this forum, I learn mostly from this book of the Samurai:

"To give a person one's opinion and correct his faults is an important thing. It is compassionate and comes first in matters of service. But the way of doing this is extremely difficult. To discover the good and bad points of a person is an easy thing, and to give an opinion concerning them is easy, too. For the most part, people think that they are being kind by saying the things that others find distasteful or difficult to say. But if it is not received well, they think that there is nothing more to be done. This is completely worthless. It is the same as brining shame to a person by slandering him. It is nothing more than getting it off one's chest.

To give a person an opinion one must first judge well whether that person is of the disposition to receive it or not. One must become close with him and make sure that he continually trusts one's word. Approaching subjects that are dear to him, seek the best way to speak and to be well understood. Judge the occasion, and determine whether it is better by letter or at the time of leave-taking. Praise his good points and use every device to encourage him, perhaps by talking about one's own faults without touching on his, but so that they will occur to him. Have him receive this in the way that a man would drink water when his throat is dry, and it will be an opinion that will correct faults.

This is extremely difficult. If a person s fault is a habit of some years prior, by and large it won't be remedied. I have had this experience myself. To be intimate with alt one's comrades, correcting each other's faults, and being of one mind to be of use to the master is the great compassion of a retainer. By bringing shame to a person, How could one expect to make him a better man? "

Regards,
PH

Ultimatewingchun

04-14-2004, 01:32 PM

PaulH:

Good post.

04-14-2004, 02:02 PM

... that quotation was excellent, Paul. It does seem to capture a bit of "you." Thanks for thinking to post it for our benefit as well.

['Course, you probably posted it just to get people to like you or something. J/K w/U :D:D:D]

Regards,
- kj

PaulH

04-14-2004, 02:26 PM

Kathy,

It's my pleasure, but I only say out loud what you, Victor, and others already know! We all learn from one another. I love to post controversial stuffs too just to get feedbacks and reactions from people. Their comments give subtance to my often fanciful thinking.

Regards,
PH

anerlich

04-14-2004, 03:49 PM

Andrew- Honest question (just curious and feel free to ignore it) but why are you so sure? I read Mastering KF and they sure looked similiar to me- but then again I have not studied either of them and can only go on my own (very limited) experience. Could you be more specific?

I don't have my copy with me at the moment, but as a TWC student carrying the weight of a highly contestable version of history, I was once highly enamoured of the notion that HFY was a "missing link" to TWC, and did everything I could within reason to determine whether this was in fact the case.

The thing is, EVERYBODY who would be involved in such a link denies it, despite the considerable advantages to some that such a link would bring were it true.

While both use a parallel foot neutral stance, the photos indicate that the TWC and HFY stances are different in emphasis. The feet and knees are wider and the stance less sunk. Many other differences as well, but without the book I can't enumerate them, and in any case can't see the point. I've formed my opinion, don't need to convince anyone else, and have no desire to justify my opinion further on here.

A year ago I would have loved there to be a link, and really wanted to believe it. But, the evidence just ain't there. Having read the book, I'm now convinced that TWC is NOT related to HFY, and VERY happy about that as a TWC practitioner.

yuanfen

04-14-2004, 03:58 PM

Black and Blue- no problem on the names-I figured it was unintentional. Now for some comments after the snips from your post. Again opinions of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, because it is surely hard to understand where TWC is coming from in relation to Leung Jan,

((Perhaps that is your curiosity. And those who have an interest in TWC history.I have zero curiosity where TWC came from.))

(yuanfen)So?

So... the point is that if we are asking Qs about Leung Jan and footwork etc, we will surely get no where looking to YM.

((That opinion thing again!!))

Everyone from the YM camp says he taught them something different.

(((You surely know about John Locke's tabula rasa and the problem of the origin and nature of diversity of perceptions. You also have the problem of the diversity in students association with Ip Man--- duration, frequency and quality of those associations))

Madness. Concepts and footwork vary beyond belief... is confusing to say the least.

((Surely when people fill in gaps in their own way--paralleling Bruce Lee and boxing -fencing footwork. Ok if it works for yourself))

Better to look to YM and the various lines that spring from him and leave LJ to people like Jim R.... IMO.

((I respect Jim R. but he does not have a monopoly by any means on what
Leung Jan's legacy is.))

(yuanfen) Why? Does he owe you anything?

I don't like this double standard. Anyone who teaches surely owes something to the students, just as those who learn owe a great deal to their teacher. You often talk about the poor standard of some WCK today... it doesn't help when what was learnt from YM was a mixed bag.

((Fuzzy area for facts. Again read above regarding the diversity in
the nature of student association with him. You have lots of self generated badwagon effect of stories of those associations.
I do not think that Ip man cheated any of his students. He had to turn to teaching for basic necessities after he lost everything.
If someone paid he taught them accordingly. I dont think that
Leung Shun, Wong Shon Leung and Ho kam Ming or Tsui Tsong Tin or Lok Yiu ever ccriticized his teaching or what he did teach.
They all revered him.

In his early teaching days he experimented with the forms and changed some things- as teachers rearrange the curriculum.
Also wing chun produces individuals not armies. His retirement and decline is a different and very human story. And-he never claimed sainthood. Warts and all- he was a true sifu to those who really learned from him...again IMO

Corruptions of ego and money hasa lot to do with the state of wing chun today. Silly to hold Ip man responsible for it.))

Yuanfen

Gangsterfist

04-14-2004, 04:12 PM

Corruptions of ego and money hasa lot to do with the state of wing chun today. Silly to hold Ip man responsible for it.))

I could not agree more with this statement. That is why I liked choosing the lineage I train in now, they don't advertise anything. So, I know they are not out there to make a buck. I looked at kung fu tai chi magazine the other day and saw a video in the ads section for mastering tai chi in just 8 minutes per day. I think my drink went through my nose I laughed so hard. And on the picture the guy was doing a snake creeping through the meadow stance, and his tailbone was sticking way out, and I was like wtf? Then I thought about the gullible consumer who buys this and actually thinks they can master tai chi in 8 minutes/day, and I felt sad. taiji is a beautiful martial art that is a very solid system. Its too bad its being disgraced so some corporate guy can make a few dollars. Unfortunately there are a lot of watered down martial arts to make money out there. There are good ones too, just harder to find IMO.

One thing about wing chun that bothers me is how everyone looks to the past and yip man for this and that. Its like they are trying to find the lost covenant of the arch or something. Its like they think they will find some ancient lost or deadly secret technique that only one person was ever taught by some esoteric grand master of kung fu. I say that wing chun practitioners should drop all the philosophy and politics and talk about prgoressing the art of wing chun.

FooFighter

04-14-2004, 05:03 PM

Victor:

I bet not many past students had the respect to do what I did and tell you why they were leaving your school. I was not a coward to come to see you and tell you that I wasnt going to continue training with you. Trust me I am a man of character and know about respect and giving people FACE. My past messages are meaningless Victor, it all meaningless even yours, but our
own past behaviors and accomplishments is all that matters in the end and that will SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. My Character rest on this fact which you can not deny that I was not a punk, I
gave you notice, and practiced Mo Duk.

Victor, you and I have more in common than differences, Victor. We both are researchers, both love wing chun, and lovers of wine. But yet Moy Yat must have invaded your body when I last spoke to you face to face because your reaction to me must be the same reaction Moy Yat gave you. Like you who had to rid the Moy Yat's wing chun from your system to study TWC. I too had the same problem. It took me about a year to recondition my body to study Alan Lee's wing chun and trust me I am trying to rid the poison in me now. Lastly, I am happy that you are still same man under new name and skill. Much luck to you, Victor, I was told to come to read your crap. Originally, as Mr.Bao, I was suggested not to waste time here by Alan Lee and was suggested that time should be spent more on training instead of idle chit chat about fighting. I think Lee Sifu was right because this is a waste and fruitless. Hence, Good Bye folks. My last tread on this forum. I personally dont need validation from anyone here.

PS: Mike the German, Mike aka Dag, and James followed me to Alan Lee's school and they seem impressed with Alan Lee.

FooFighter

04-14-2004, 08:16 PM

Paul:

I am surprised you remembered me. I will let you in on something. I was goofying around with the poor English writing
style. I wasnt to make myself more exotic, foreign, or an FOB. LOL. Be well, I wont be posting anything here anymore. I have to go back to college soon so have fun. Thanks for remembering my past comments.

Mr. Bao

Ultimatewingchun

04-14-2004, 08:37 PM

Tran....Good riddance to you.

But before you go...You should know that I spoke to Michael Mannsberger (he's Austrian - not German)...two weeks - and he expressed interest in coming to my new Brooklyn school...he originally went to Farrington Street because he lives in Flushing and when I moved my school to my ORIGINAL Brooklyn location - he felt it would be too far....but my new Brooklyn location is just two minutes from the first stop into Brooklyn on the F train...so he's interested....James was also concerned about coming to Brooklyn when I first moved - due to distance...so he went to Farrington street also.

And you're BIG DRAMATIC ANNOUNCEMENT that you couldn't study with me anymore because someone with twice as much Wing Chun experience as you (it doesn't matter which style) beat you...MEANT TO SOMEHOW MAKE ME FEEL RESPONSIBLE AND INADEQUATE...backfired in your face.

You expected that I would say..."Oh Tran - I'm so sorry about that - hear now - let me spend some extra time with you and teach you everything under the sun about TWC by tomorrow morning...at which point you'll wake up and feel like SUPERMAN..."

You...who ALWAYS had to be told to slow down....relax...take a deep breathe...stop going so fast and so hard with the new material I just taught you...stop trying to learn B before you learned A...etc.

So instead of coddling you like a small child after you're big ACT...I just immediately showed you the door...and the smoke started to blow out your ears...and hasn't stopped ever since (obviously).

But I don't really give a **** how angry you are...You're a spoiled brat.

And as for Catch Wrestling...ALL OF MY ADVANCED STUDENTS like Mike, Rich, Brett, Myron, Kimathi...they all knew that I had learned some Catch (for three years) way back in the early-mid 1960's...and went back to it as of about 4 years ago.

So stop all the BULLS#IT and get lost !

anerlich

04-14-2004, 09:18 PM

Originally, as Mr.Bao, I was suggested not to waste time here by Alan Lee and was suggested that time should be spent more on training instead of idle chit chat about fighting.

It sounds like you don't listen to advice from ANYONE.

I will let you in on something. I was goofying around with the poor English writing

In other words, being a deceitful *****.

I have to go back to college soon

Maybe you'll LISTEN to what your professors tell you there. Don't hurry back.

black and blue

04-15-2004, 01:29 AM

Good morning, yuanfen (well, morning for me here in Hungary),

I guess its a merry-go-round discussion... we both have different feelings on the matter.... but because I can't let sleeping dogs.... errr..... sleep.....

:)

"I have zero curiosity where TWC came from"

Fair enough.

"I respect Jim R. but he does not have a monopoly by any means on what
Leung Jan's legacy is."

Sure, but his is a more direct transmittion - less tainted some mights say. But yes, some might not say.

"I do not think that Ip man cheated any of his students. He had to turn to teaching for basic necessities after he lost everything. If someone paid he taught them accordingly. I dont think that Leung Shun, Wong Shon Leung and Ho kam Ming or Tsui Tsong Tin or Lok Yiu ever criticized his teaching or what he did teach. They all revered him."

Surely if they all paid, and they all studied hard, and did so for an extended period of time, but they were all taught differently... someone, somewhere was cheated?

"In his early teaching days he experimented with the forms and changed some things- as teachers rearrange the curriculum."

Sure - that makes sense.... but, and maybe I'm just stupid, some changes make no sense. Leung Shun learnt with 0/100 weight distribution, Wong Shun Leung with 50/50. This difference alters everything.... alignment and structure, how the body can move and react, etc etc. Those who train from LS's line, there art looks a million miles away from those of, say, Yip Chun or WSL. (and for total confusion look compare those 'styles' with Leung Ting's and TWC's). My head is spinning just thinking about it, hehehehe

"And-he never claimed sainthood. Warts and all- he was a true sifu to those who really learned from him...again IMO. Corruptions of ego and money hasa lot to do with the state of wing chun today. Silly to hold Ip man responsible for it."

Well, agreed. No Saint. Perhaps not all arts develop the self... who knows.
But with regards corruptions of money.... taking someone's money and then teaching them in a sloppy, incomplete way.... that sounds like something we could say Yip Man was responsible for.

But maybe the WC world has just left me tired and disillusioned,

;)

yuanfen

04-15-2004, 05:36 AM

Black and blue-

Good curiosities on your part despite differences in our conclusions-makes for civil discussion for which I am thankful.
Hungary? I remember your journalistic bent.
Unlike you I am not disillusioned with the wing chun world-perspective perhaps -I work on eliminating my illusions.
I expect clay feet in humans-me included.

Jeffersonian ideas imply human equality -yet he turneda blind eye
to some issues of race and culture. Paul Tillich was once regarded as one of the foremost protestant theologians and he believed in the sanctity of intent. Yet-They found pornography in his attic after he died. He should have been less absolutist on human bondage.You have to be capable of good belly laughs
about human folly.

Some comments on your post tip toeing through the pasture-
hence seemingly elliptical at times. Civility uber alles-truth can lead to the stake and to inquisitions.

1. Teachers evolve- Ip Man did. Some naturally start off with sharing- become reflective and methodical later and then decline with old age. Natural for different students to get different things.
Teachers evolve too and decline.

2. Students can come away with different impressions from the same teacher- sometimes depending on what was in their cup in the first place.

3. Ip Chun had little interest in wing chun in Fatshan and he was
also left behind. When he moved to HK- Ip Man's teaching had already begun to slow down.

4. the art is bigger than any teacher. A knowledgeable teacher
like Ip Man points better than others. Students pick up what they can and if the art is deep as I find wing chun to be--keep on discovering new things along the way.... beyond "Ip Man said....".

In hectic modern settings values can be different. Warts and all i am thankful for Ip man. He himself liked the older saying- be thankful for the water that you drink and those upstream who made the flow possible.

And-it's always spring.

sorry for typos.

yuanfen

CFT

04-15-2004, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
In hectic modern settings values can be different. Warts and all i am thankful for Ip man. He himself liked the older saying- be thankful for the water that you drink and those upstream who made the flow possible.When we drink the water, we must think of the source:

Canto: "Yum sui yiu see yuen"
Mando: "Yin shui yao si yuan"

It is a nice saying, acknowledging the contributions of our predecessors, but doesn't preclude innovation. In fact, we even owe it to those who "only" transmit the knowledge without adding anything.

As to all the variations in YM Wing Chun, it doesn't really seem that one method is more valid or legitimate than another. They all still adhere to the central tenets and philosophies of Wing Chun don't they?

I have no personal experience of each and every branch of YM WCK, so as usual this is just a personal opinion/observation; ignore at your leisure.

yuanfen

04-15-2004, 07:18 AM

Canto: "Yum sui yiu see yuen"
Mando: "Yin shui yao si yuan"

CFT- many thanks for the Chinese version.
with much appreciation

Is that in cantonese?

yuanfen

04-15-2004, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by CFT
As to all the variations in YM Wing Chun, it doesn't really seem that one method is more valid or legitimate than another. They all still adhere to the central tenets and philosophies of Wing Chun don't they?

Is there a universally agreed upon set of tenets and philosophies for Wing Chun? If so, what are they? Are they adhered to in practice? Just curious to better understand your perspective on this, and what might lead one to the proposed conclusion.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Nick Forrer

04-15-2004, 07:31 AM

Another point to add to all the excellent ones Joy made

Ip man probaly never envisioned the massive world wide spread of WC that has taken place over the last thirty years. Of course it was his en masse HK teaching that precipitated this spread but if he had known or could have foreseen it, he may have been a little more excating about standards and put more of an institutional structure in place to enforce them. Of course then again he might not have- im just speculating. I understand that he was hostile to the idea of Gwailos learning WC. But now the cat is out of the bag and with the invention of the internet I think people are beggining to piece some of the fragmented pieces of WC together. I liked what Hawkins Cheung said in an article about Yip Man- that he didnt teach them 'Wing chun' per se. Instead he gave them a problem to solve- JKD being Bruces solution to the problem (if you like his expression of wing chun).
In fact when ever WSL would give a seminar he would always prefix it with the words 'this is my personal interpretation of Wing Chun. Dont take it as the truth- instead think about it for yourself.'
Hawkins also said 'Ip man gave us a gun but he didnt teach us how to shoot it. We had to figure it out for ourselves'.

One of the reasons im on the net and try and listen to as many view points as possible is so I can get a grip on some of these alternative perspectives/ways of teaching.

Of course with the commercialisation of wing chun (a product offered to a consumer rather than a craft taught to an apprentice) some of it has inevitably been diluted- a point my instructor often makes is that WC cant be taught by having people robotically going up and down a room chain punching- it requires discussion, reflection, testing and exploration- all things that are better fostered in an open critical environment rather than an autocratic 'sifu sez', 'respect junior/senior divisions/protocol when chi sauing' mentality

Anyway apologies for the ramble

black and blue

04-15-2004, 07:45 AM

Awwwww.... c'mon guys (and girls).... we all know the situation....

Wing Chun is widespread and most of it sucks. Every, absolutely every, lineage says all YM WCK is equally valid just different in approach, but within class talks about their lineage being (and pick which is correct for your school)

* The true teachings
* The most direct and efficient
* The most comprehensive
* The art as YM wanted it taught
* The most combat applicable

etc etc etc

It seems that YM taught large numbers of people.... he must have known the art would spread... perhaps, just perhaps, he didn't give a da.mn what it ended up like.

:rolleyes:

04-15-2004, 07:48 AM

Anyway apologies for the ramble

Not at all. Good rambling.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

yuanfen

04-15-2004, 08:04 AM

black and blue- sez

It seems that YM taught large numbers of people.... he must have known the art would spread... perhaps, just perhaps, he didn't give a da.mn what it ended up like.
---------------------------------------------------------
Not really. How large is large. His span of real teaching in HK was fairly short- 50 to about 62. Classes were about 20 or so each.
Some cheated on tuition- some "audited", watched etc.

The growth is from students teaching others etc.

Is a teacher always responsible for every bad decision future
folks might make?

C'mon.

I dont hold Aristotle for all the later dogmatism of Aristotelians. I hold the dogmatists responsible for listening to Aristotle...dogma,
patriarchy, hierarchy, slavery, parochialism, qualitative rather than mathematical science etc.

But you pay attention to his original good classification of botany and zoology and move on.

human responsibility for one's own actions.

said above by Nick and others in the past including WSL, HKM etc--its upto you......

Fathers are not always responsible for the sins of their children--as a matter of fact they can inherit insanity from their children-as has been said.

yuanfen

04-15-2004, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by black and blue
Every, absolutely every, lineage says all YM WCK is equally valid just different in approach,

I, for one, never said this, nor do I believe it to be true or accurate. Lineages can't speak; only individuals can.

OTOH, I strongly believe in everyone's right to make their own choices, establish their own tradeoffs and balances, and honor their own needs and preferences. Vigorously reserving the right to screw up for myself, it only seems right to allow others the same latitude. ;)

Just some off-hand thoughts.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

black and blue

04-15-2004, 08:22 AM

LOL @ KJ and Joy.... okay, okay.... you two crack me up even if I do disagree with some of what you say....

Of course a lineage cannnot speak - but I think you understood what I was saying. People from every lineage.

I think I read in 'Complete Wing Chun' something about the rapid growth of classes and Yip Man's teaching in HK... maybe I am wrong... or maybe the book was wrong. Don't have it with me - one, sadly, I left in the UK. But I'm remembering it spoke of large numbers.

But I stand firm... I blame YM for everything, LOL :)

Shoddy way of teaching, shoddy attitude - the art suffers because of it. (Perhaps a harsh opinion considering I never met the man, but hey... )

Don't get me wrong... I like what I have so far learnt, and still meet people from various lineages to Chi Sau and work out. In honestly, my main focus now is Hsing-I (I'm sure it also has politics), but I still like meeting the WC players in town.

But the differences I see when meeting people who are all from YM WCK... well, its a sad, sad thing.

CFT

04-15-2004, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by kj
Is there a universally agreed upon set of tenets and philosophies for Wing Chun? If so, what are they? Are they adhered to in practice? Just curious to better understand your perspective on this, and what might lead one to the proposed conclusion.I don't know about agreed upon, but some of the commonalities that feature in all the YM WCK branches:

1) Attack/defend along the centre-line
2) Straight lines (small arcs) in attack and defense
3) Simultaneous attack and defense
4) Minimal excess movement/conservation of energy
5) Not meeting force head on

Though at this level if description I could be describing any TCMA, let alone any lineage of WCK.

Differences in training methodologies and forms probably even out in the "heat of combat". Apart from innovations like TWC's entry-technique, how different are the combat approaches of the various YM WCK lineages? Do they really look that different in a fight?

I'm really speaking out of ignorance here, so you can shoot me down.

CFT

04-15-2004, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Canto: "Yum sui yiu see yuen"
Mando: "Yin shui yao si yuan"

CFT- many thanks for the Chinese version. with much appreciation
Is that in cantonese?

yuanfen Sorry, I shouldn't have taken the shortcut ... it is the same phrase .... first in Cantonese, then in Mandarin.

Canto/Mando is something like a shorthand typically used in forums like this.

CFT

04-15-2004, 09:34 AM

Martial arts are always open to personal interpretation, though I agree that consistency would be preferable when being taught something. But from the anecdotal evidence posted here, it seems that Yip Man adopted a rather modern approach to teaching, i.e. that the student takes responsibility for their own learning and self-fulfilment.

Perhaps this is preferable to producing robots that always did things a certain way?

As to why Yip Man seemed to produce such drastically different students .... I really like the insight offered by Victor Parlati's post here: Question for those who have studied many different versions of Wing Chun (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29484&pagenumber=3)

I don't know how they enforced the "trademark" for YM WCK, but he (YM) didn't stop any of his students going out and establishing their own schools did he? He wasn't so hung up about the differences, so why should we.

I have read convincing arguments on this forum for the different weight distributions, which I won't repeat here. The people who practice 0/100 or 50/50 can still make it work can't they? It still looks and smells like Wing Chun, yes?

I've enjoyed the debate, and all the views posted so far. Keep it up :)

black and blue

04-16-2004, 01:05 AM

CFT

Interesting comments. I don't know if I'd call YM's method modern... in today's martial art world would you study under unequal access to knowledge... access dependent on how much extra you can pay?

I dunno. That type of setup usually comes under fire today does it not.

"He wasn't so hung up about the differences, so why should we?"

Exactly. It seems, from what those in the know have written in the past, that YM did not want to teach at all in HK. He was forced to out of fiscal hardship. I think it was on Duncan Leung's forum someone asked a Q about what YM's theories/feelings might have been regarding WCK history and development, and D Leung said, in his opinion, YM probably wouldn't have given a da.mn... that that was the kind of man he was.

Perhaps YM wasn't hung up by the differences in knowledge, application, understanding of theory etc etc, because he WAS a reluctant teacher... it wasn't his goal to further the art.... he just need to make money and could do so from teaching.

Perhaps not the best reason for transmitting knowledge. From the way he taught (the differences he taught) he must have seen what would happen in the future... that there would be great conflict within the art.

I am sure he had the most amazing WCK skills - many would have left if this wasn't the case - but he certainly, IME, didn't give a hoot about transmitting that knowledge. So many of the Big Names in YM WCK had close personal relationships with the man.... yet he still picked and selected who was going to get what in terms of info....

I just find it deplorable.

CFT

04-16-2004, 02:17 AM

True, Yip Man was a very reluctant teacher and was forced into teaching because of financial hardship. But we must remember his background. This man came from a rich family, he had a privileged upbringing. To teach kung-fu would have been a lowering of his social standing.

I am ignorant about the matter of access to his teaching. Are there published comments about this and that he picked and chose who got what? I recall reading that he was not a patient teacher .... you either got it in the first telling or not. I think you're right in that he displayed favouritism, but perhaps this was based on the student's aptitude or character rather than the size of his wallet?

Given the unstructured nature of his instruction, I think it is not surprising that he produced students of varying quantity and difference of technique. His own WC education is somewhat unstructured if we consider the fact that he had two teachers who taught him different aspects to WC.

It is not easy to teach anything, so if you have a reluctant teacher who did not think about the teaching itself much before embarking on this endeavour then that is what you get.

I think that I would disagree to a certain extent that Yip Man had no concern with the development and transmission of WC. Did he not pen the couplet:

"Wing Chun chuen tsing tung,
"Wah ha tsun hung fung"

which is hung in the Yip Man Tong in Fatshan and displayed in many kwoons of sifus in the YM lineage?

The first sentence is about transmitting the orthodox/traditional Wing Chun. The second I'm not too sure about ....

Maybe he didn't give a **** because there are plenty of other WC lineages out there. I believe that WC was being taught in HK even before Yip Man started living and teaching there. So he wasn't the saviour that bought it out of Communist China.

04-16-2004, 04:47 AM

I think there is plenty of blame to go around for the general state and disarray of Wing Chun today. And plenty of credit too if one can adopt a half-full mind set or look around a bit.

No benefit in blame-storming Ip Man or any one person in particular. While interesting and creative, posthumous psychoanalysis can lead down a lot of blind alleys. Joy's comment on feet of clay is true for every human; not to mention that Wing Chun is not the sum total of anyone's life. Or at least let us pray that it isn't! Anyone and everyone who's ever practiced or taught Wing Chun - past or present - could have done something more or differently toward ensuring its integrity or better serving ongoing generations of exponents in some way. (Yes, that means each and every one of us.)

Regardless how we got here, what is, is. IMHO, it's more constructive to introspect and ask ourselves what we as individuals can best contribute.

... Even if that means switching to Hsing-i!?!? :eek: Just joking w/u black and blue!! ;):D Whatever you do, whereever you go - enjoy it, soak it in, and give it your best. :)

Regards,
- kj

black and blue

04-16-2004, 05:50 AM

LOL KJ

:D

Well, my interest in Hsing-I certainly didn't spring from my negative feelings regarding forever spring - connected to a whole host of other reasons (Chi Kung, a very talented instructor, an interest in their power development etc).

I'll always have a soft spot for WCK - and don't want to give up meeting the WCK guys I know (nice chaps)... just came to realise (and this is a very person opinion) that WCK would not be able to offer me everything I wanted. For me a complete system doesn't just mean a system that incorporates ground fighting, heheheheeh.

WCK is simply the biggest minefield in MAs. Some good to be found, lots of bad, confusion amongst lineages etc etc.

It will infuriate some if I say it, but 3 years hard WCK practice gave me a good taste of the art... a long long way from completing the system, but far enough down the path to realise it has something to offer... but not all I want to be offered.

(I can see Joy wearily rolling his eyes and raising his eyebrows at the notion 3 years gives a good glimpse of the art.... ;) :p ).

Someone once described Wing Chun to me as being Hsing-I Lite.... I wouldn't go that far exactly.... but couldn't resist saying it. :rolleyes: ;) :)

old jong

04-16-2004, 06:03 AM

Wing Chun ,as a system will always be subject to personnal interpretation. The forms are not simulated fights like many other "styles" do. Development drills like Chi Sau,lop Sau are more questions you must answer than a method of fighting "fit for all". Everybody in Wing Chun has to find his own Wing Chun based on his personal talent and understanding of his own teacher's same things.

Nick Forrer

04-16-2004, 06:42 AM

'Someone once described Wing Chun to me as being Hsing-I Lite'

I prefer to think of it as hsing i XP i.e. streamlined, more user friendly, faster running and less prone to crashing than previous versions:D

BTW Duncan (?) did you ever make it to St Albans? I understand my classmate James/Frank Exchange once invited you.

black and blue

04-16-2004, 07:04 AM

:D

But Windows is Windows... so.... weak and a bast.ardisation by nature. Looks good but is full of glitches, hehehhee.

Unfortunately I never had the opportunity to visit the WSL guys in St Albans. It always messed with my training... I got contact details for one of your gang down in Brighton (I lived in Sussex), but the move to Hungary scuppered my plans to visit more people in the UK.

I do, however, know a chap in Hungary (with excellent English) called Karoly Nagy... he spend about 12 years learning WSL lineage WCK apparently, and then visited China where he learnt some Pan Nam WCK. A very knowledgable man who also has a flair for Long Fist.

He's promised to show me some more of what he learnt regarding PN WCK... so that should be a treat.

But on the silly Hsing-I references... my favourite quote of all was "Imagine how easy it is to knock over a strong man who has already lost his balance...now imagine that man losing his balance and being hit by a speeding car.... that is Hsing-I".

WCK would be like being hit with a Vespa. (Kidding, just kidding) :D ;)

04-16-2004, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by black and blue
:But on the silly Hsing-I references... my favourite quote of all was "Imagine how easy it is to knock over a strong man who has already lost his balance...now imagine that man losing his balance and being hit by a speeding car.... that is Hsing-I".

Nice quote.

If you've found a truly exceptional instructor in Hsing-I or virtually any MA, you are uncommonly fortunate. Hats off to you.

WCK would be like being hit with a Vespa. (Kidding, just kidding) :D ;)

He heh heh .... cute. However, you obviously haven't met some of the Wing Chun exponents I know. ;)

Regards,
- kj

yuanfen

04-16-2004, 08:33 AM

Black and Blue sez and comments:

Well, my interest in Hsing-I certainly didn't spring from my negative feelings regarding forever spring - connected to a whole host of other reasons (Chi Kung, a very talented instructor, an interest in their power development etc).

((A good reason to learn Hsing I- your feelings about wc are your feelings- sometimes tautologies are useful))

WCK is simply the biggest minefield in MAs. Some good to be found, lots of bad, confusion amongst lineages etc etc.

((Same in math or whatever- bad teachers, some students never make it to advanced calculus, some get the beauty others count apples and oranges))

It will infuriate some if I say it, but 3 years hard WCK practice gave me a good taste of the art... a long long way from completing the system, but far enough down the path to realise it has something to offer... but not all I want to be offered.

(I can see Joy wearily rolling his eyes and raising his eyebrows at the notion 3 years gives a good glimpse of the art.... ).

_(((no raised eyebrows- just a smile- you misseda turn somewhere-because you were watching what you thought wasa Vespa))

Someone once described Wing Chun to me as being Hsing-I Lite.... I wouldn't go that far exactly.... but couldn't resist saying it.

((Haha- Ip man when he got to HK told a nosey guy that IM did a little hsing I !! A deflective comment))

black and blue

04-16-2004, 08:39 AM

"Haha- Ip man when he got to HK told a nosey guy that IM did a little hsing I !! A deflective comment"

Sure... he told the guy that to scare him off... if he said he did WCK he'd have been facing a challenge, heheheehhehhehe ;)

Well, Vespa or Car - both have engines and wheels. :) Sometimes riding a scooter is fun too... I don't plan on forsaking the opportunity to rev it once in a while with the Hungarian Vespa Crew :)

yuanfen

04-16-2004, 09:01 AM

Sure... he told the guy that to scare him off... if he said he did WCK he'd have been facing a challenge, heheheehhehhehe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ip Man was easy to find in his HK days.

I know zilch about wc in Hungary

Pan Nam wc? Wellllll :-

taltos

04-16-2004, 10:02 AM

black and blue,

I don't know how I missed your location before, but could you let me know (PM or public) where some good schools are in Budapest? I've got a Kung Fu Sister there who is a little green, and I've been asked to do some investigating for her.

Köszönöm!

dfl

04-16-2004, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by CFT
I think that I would disagree to a certain extent that Yip Man had no concern with the development and transmission of WC. Did he not pen the couplet:

"Wing Chun chuen tsing tung,
"Wah ha tsun hung fung"

which is hung in the Yip Man Tong in Fatshan and displayed in many kwoons of sifus in the YM lineage?

Unfortunately most who brandish those couplets have no idea what they are saying.
And it's not true YM created it. The original used to hang in the halls of Chan Wah Shun, YM's teacher.

04-16-2004, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by dfl
Unfortunately most who brandish those couplets have no idea what they are saying.

Can you help us out on that Dan?

Regards,
- kj

FSY

04-16-2004, 11:02 AM

So Leung Yee Tai was Leung Jan's father and sifu, right?

Is there anything about Leung Yee Tai out there?

So far I know that he was apparently a worker on one of the Red Boats. Was this a cover? Was he also an herbal doctor? Is there any evidence that he taught the three forms as well as the wooden dummy form? Supposedly he was the one to add the Pole Form to Wing Chun, did he also practice the knives?

Thanks!

anerlich

04-16-2004, 05:06 PM

According to William Cheung's Dragon Pole book, It was not Leung Yee Tai, but Leung Bok Cho who formed an alliance with Wong Wa Bo after they duelled knife against pole on one of the red boats.

'Someone once described Wing Chun to me as being Hsing-I Lite'

Nahhh.

"I prefer to think of it as hsing i XP i.e. streamlined, more user friendly, faster running and less prone to crashing than previous versions"

You obviously don't work in desktop support :)

black and blue

04-18-2004, 05:32 AM

Hi taltos,

Give me a few days.... most of the people I know I meet in an informal setting. I will ask about the guys official training locations and then pass them on.

By far the biggest group over here is the WT guys (who are really exceptional - train very hard, in every sense, and have top skills), but there are also some TWC chaps and a few other groups that have split from various others at some time in the past.

Will get details and will then PM you!

:)

Szia!

Duncan

Jim Roselando

04-19-2004, 07:12 AM

Hello FSY,

So Leung Yee Tai was Leung Jan's father and sifu, right?

He was not his father. His father was an herbalist who had a clinic in Futshan I believe.

Regards,

FSY

04-20-2004, 12:53 PM

Thanks Jim.

The reason I started this thread was because I train with guys from different lineages and the one thing that stands out the most to me so far is the difference in footwork. I was hoping to trace the history of Wing Chun back to the good ol' days of the Red Boats and before so that I could appreciate some of the differences.

However, I can see now that APPARENTLY most of the history before Leung Jan Sifu (and even lots of the more recent history) is based on an oral transmission of information rather than stuff that's based on documents. That's too bad, because in my other areas of interest there's an abundant supply of historical information available which adds another dimension to the enjoyment of learning. Oh well...

...I guess I'll take Sifu Parlati's advice and focus on the dynamics of the system without concerning myself too much as to how the theories came about. Cheers.

FSY

04-20-2004, 12:53 PM

Jim Roselando

04-20-2004, 01:14 PM

FSY,

Thanks Jim.

No problem. JR

The reason I started this thread was because I train with guys from different lineages and the one thing that stands out the most to me so far is the difference in footwork. I was hoping to trace the history of Wing Chun back to the good ol' days of the Red Boats and before so that I could appreciate some of the differences.

However, I can see now that APPARENTLY most of the history before Leung Jan Sifu (and even lots of the more recent history) is based on an oral transmission of information rather than stuff that's based on documents. That's too bad, because in my other areas of interest there's an abundant supply of historical information available which adds another dimension to the enjoyment of learning. Oh well...

I understand your desire to sort these things out. Dont worry too much about stories and written histories. Just take the known stylistic "facts" that can be proven and list them out side by side. Thats the easiest way to find the common links. Toooooo much variations and individual expression now a days to look into all the different ways etc.. Everyone has there reasons for doing things the way they do it. Just look back and go from there!

Red Boat people:

Wong Wah Bo lineages:

Leung Jan (Futshan (Chan Wah Shun)/Koo Lo (Wong Sam))

Fok Bo Chuen (Yuen Kay San)

Yik Kam lineage:

Hendrik Santo and others

Etc..

I know there are more lineages but this is a good place to start. Especially since these can be traced back easily without debate. Take the Internal alignment of the above three and compare them. Take Frame Size of the above three and compare them. Take the terms and compare them. Etc.. List them all out side by side and then compare them to other things that you are interested in. If its TWC you are interested in comparing then do that. You may also want to compare TWC with HFY etc.. Check into as much as possible. Take from the Yip Man Futshan pupils and the early Hong Kong guys (Leung Shung) and compare them to what others preserve. Compare and think, compare and think. The info. will be a bit easier to figure out what is more likely rather than less likely.

In the end what matters is if you enjoy what you do. Stories dont mean didly. Can your art produce that wonderful soft shock force WC is famous for etc.. Can you defend yourself with your art etc.. Best of luck!

Regards,

byond1

04-21-2004, 03:10 PM

jim--

your advise...to compare and think, would only work if one knew the histories,descrptive terms, forms or points ect of cho family, koolo family, yks family, yip man family ect. you cant comare what you dont know.
and since cho and koolo are available to almost no one in the states and yks has less than 2 handfulls of active instructors(in american) comparing them isnt really realistic for the public. of cource if some information(other than the exact same things repeated over and over again ,which dont tell us anything) were shared from cho or koolo perhaps the general public could compare and make a logical choice in what red boat wc really looked like.
the truly sad thing is....when things are horded...contempt flows....people will steal....and as such when people steal...they only get part of the picture and mix it up with what they already know....and bam...you wind up with more basturd wc systems, and more confusion. people will even take credit for creating the lost information themselves or say it has been passed down to only me!!lololol....and as such the quality of wc in general declines
so it would seem obvious...that we need a starting point....obviously slt level is it. but no one has made the steps other than saying we need to .
brian

Phenix

04-21-2004, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by byond1
jim--

your advise...to compare and think, would only work if one knew the histories,descrptive terms, forms or points ect of cho family, koolo family, yks family, yip man family ect. you cant comare what you dont know.
and since cho and koolo are available to almost no one in the states and yks has less than 2 handfulls of active instructors(in american) comparing them isnt really realistic for the public. of cource if some information(other than the exact same things repeated over and over again ,which dont tell us anything) were shared from cho or koolo perhaps the general public could compare and make a logical choice in what red boat wc really looked like.
the truly sad thing is....when things are horded...contempt flows....people will steal....and as such when people steal...they only get part of the picture and mix it up with what they already know....and bam...you wind up with more basturd wc systems, and more confusion. people will even take credit for creating the lost information themselves or say it has been passed down to only me!!lololol....and as such the quality of wc in general declines
so it would seem obvious...that we need a starting point....obviously slt level is it. but no one has made the steps other than saying we need to .
brian

You know. Why dont we do a one or two days friendship seminal to go through the important things for every family? and history.... let's do it in San Jose.

That way is better then words which often mistaken communicate.

anerlich

04-21-2004, 09:18 PM

Why dont we do a one or two days friendship seminal to go through the important things for every family? and history.... let's do it in San Jose.

The word "seminal" has too many weird connotations ... if that's really what you want, maybe the "seminal" would be more fittingly held in San Fran? :D

That way is better then words which often mistaken communicate.

A point your post highlights admirably.

Zhuge Liang

04-21-2004, 11:02 PM

Hi Hendrik

Originally posted by Phenix

You know. Why dont we do a one or two days friendship seminal to go through the important things for every family? and history.... let's do it in San Jose.

That way is better then words which often mistaken communicate.

I'm game. Anyone else interested? Talking and theorizing is nice and all, but I also want to work out with people. How about we have one like last years, informal setting. Those who want to talk can talk, those who want to work out can work out, and anyone is free to do both or neither.

Head count?

Regards,
Alan

Ernie

04-21-2004, 11:15 PM

uh-oh

is this thing starting again :)

Jim Roselando

04-22-2004, 06:11 AM

Brian,

your advise...to compare and think, would only work if one knew the histories,descrptive terms, forms or points ect of cho family, koolo family, yks family, yip man family ect. you cant comare what you dont know.
and since cho and koolo are available to almost no one in the states and yks has less than 2 handfulls of active instructors(in american) comparing them isnt really realistic for the public. of cource if some information(other than the exact same things repeated over and over again ,which dont tell us anything) were shared from cho or koolo perhaps the general public could compare and make a logical choice in what red boat wc really looked like.

Well, I have to agree and disagree with you on this point. Over the last few years YM (numerous), YKS (Rene & others), Cho (Hendrik), Koo Lo (Me) etc. etc. have all shared a boat (no pun intended) load of stylistic and historical information on almost every aspect of our arts. Anything from alignment, issuing and recieving methods of ging, waist/spine, tensing versus non tensing, tactics, theory, etc.. Also, since we all have shared it would mean that we are more than willing to help out and discuss our arts with the public correct?

So, you would either have to look back thru the discussions and do some homework by listing out these things side by side or they could just ask again.

Regards,

Phenix

04-22-2004, 06:53 AM

Alan,

Thanks!

04-22-2004, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Anyone else interested? Talking and theorizing is nice and all, but I also want to work out with people. How about we have one like last years, informal setting. Those who want to talk can talk, those who want to work out can work out, and anyone is free to do both or neither.

Depends when, but you know I'm game if I can work it out timing and travel-wise.

Regards,
- kj

byond1

04-22-2004, 03:37 PM

phenix---mybuss ticket is already on reserve!!! :)

jim---
i agree that numerous yip man members have shared....obviously it is the largest wide spread family of wc in the world and it has been public longer.
i agree that rene shared a great deal with his yks book

but i dont consider sharing the exact same verbal information, that has been spread out to add infitum helpfull for the public. only fanatics like me who pull and orgainize all the tid bits get anything from that. (as such i have just about everything you or hendrik has ever posted or written...you are very carefull to always give the exact same answer with no additional info).
when i say share....im refering to orgainizing the material in a format that anyone can pick up and compare to what rene has put out....people can than arrive at there own conclusions , not just taking your word for it . so i have to disagree and say it doest necisarily mean you want to discuss and be helpfull with the public, with what ive seen shared from either koolo or cho family, of cource if your telling me that you are willing to share...than i guess i have to take your word for it:). 9 times out of 10 the information you or hendrik post only to damage control some idiots bantering ....or to argue what is or isnt wc. not to share for sharings sake. i see you not wanting people to be duped but that is differant that wanting to show your method. im not suggesting just giving the eccence away......im refering to the basic level....nothing special...and rene is proof you can put information out and control what it "looks" like to hide any gems from the inscrupulous. yks is a master piece in my opinion....when i learned the sys i was amazed at renes visual organization of the material.
brian

things can be put up on line....if putting out a book is to expensive. and you may ask why i dont share what i know about koolo, yks, ect......that is because 1)im not qualified as i dont know either complete system 2) the 4 people ive interacted with and learned about yks and koolo had me promise to not share. and so....i dont.....it isnt my call

Jim Roselando

04-23-2004, 07:55 AM

Brian,

i agree that numerous yip man members have shared....obviously it is the largest wide spread family of wc in the world and it has been public longer.

Yes. JR

i agree that rene shared a great deal with his yks book

Yes. Great Book. JR

but i dont consider sharing the exact same verbal information, that has been spread out to add infitum helpfull for the public.

Well, if you consider discussing the Internal Mechanics etc. in detail the exact same verbal information then I would like to see who else from Koo Lo family has shared that? JR

only fanatics like me who pull and orgainize all the tid bits get anything from that.

And how do you think I organized my info. over the years and how others did? JR

(as such i have just about everything you or hendrik has ever posted or written...

So there should be a fair ammount of info. in there regarding our practice/preservation. JR

you are very carefull to always give the exact same answer with no additional info).

Certain times yes and certain times no. Depends on the topic as I like to just focus on the main points or key ideas. I am not going to write a book on the net. I dont have the time I used to either! JR

when i say share....im refering to orgainizing the material in a format that anyone can pick up and compare to what rene has put out....people can than arrive at there own conclusions , not just taking your word for it .

Ah! I see! You just want it handed out in a nice neat package! Not going to happen from this guy! Nothing wrong with it but I am not the person to do that. If the Fung's want to then they can but they prefer to share with public via different ways and teach a select few. JR

so i have to disagree and say it doest necisarily mean you want to discuss and be helpfull with the public, with what ive seen shared from either koolo or cho family, of cource if your telling me that you are willing to share...than i guess i have to take your word for it.

Well, we can agree to disagree on this. I have written a handfull of articles and posted much infomation regarding Koo Lo art/methods. More than anyone on the net from my family. If that is not sharing then I dont know what sharing is! Go back 3 years ago and list out how much info you could find on Koo Lo teaching! Now take a look! Big difference I would say. I dont write this stuff to sell anything, or promote a school, as I only teach out of my house now and do not charge all my out of state friends for any training! JR

9 times out of 10 the information you or hendrik post only to damage control some idiots bantering ....or to argue what is or isnt wc. not to share for sharings sake.

Well, we can agree to disagree again. Much has been written and compared on this forum, WCML and Rene's old Teahouse! You just want it packaged and gift wrapped! hehe Yet! I do post for damage control but who wouldn't? JR

i see you not wanting people to be duped but that is differant that wanting to show your method.

Well, lets see! I have a group of students/friends in Boston, two formal Pin Sun disciples (one in Cal. and one in UK) and 3 study groups (one in Maryland, Holland & Australia). I show and share Leung Jan's art with all my friends. I also meet up with most people that travel thru Boston to share and compare with them and have travelled to visit other friends (like Rene) to share. I think you just think differently about how a methods should be shared. JR

im not suggesting just giving the eccence away......

Part of the essence was discussed when I wrote up the Rou Jing post IMO. JR

im refering to the basic level....nothing special...and rene is proof you can put information out and control what it "looks" like to hide any gems from the inscrupulous.

Well, about 3 years ago I posted on the net that we had a video for the public to purchase. Some purchased it and some didn't. Its no longer for sale but it was the basics of the art. I am not going to write a book or make another video. Nothing wrong with it but even recently I was burned by someone who purchased the original video so I will continue to share as I have been. Sorry its not what you want but thats just how I plan on doing it. Perhaps in the future other Koo Lo practitioners will come out of the woodwork to share as you desire. JR

yks is a master piece in my opinion....when i learned the sys i was amazed at renes visual organization of the material.

Superb art with great details. Rene's a great guy and loves WC! JR

things can be put up on line....if putting out a book is to expensive.

And they will continue to be but it may not be to your wishes. JR

and you may ask why i dont share what i know about koolo, yks, ect......that is because 1)im not qualified as i dont know either complete system 2) the 4 people ive interacted with and learned about yks and koolo had me promise to not share. and so....i dont.....it isnt my call

Oh well! Such is life! Thats their choice.

Brian!

Since you feel I dont share enough info., or have discussed much info.. regarding Leung Jan's WC, then why dont you post on this board the notes you have saved in your computer that was copied from my writings for all to see? Then atleast that info. will be all in one location for all to do as they wish with! Look forward to re-reading my info.!

Regards,

byond1

04-23-2004, 02:56 PM

jim,
o.k lets agree to disagree

well about the articles you have put out...you told me the only reason you put them out was because of the people , you felt ,where presenting koolo wrong.

you also told me the video was not pin sun....it was incorrect by your own standards and that things where altered purposly

to my wishs??? im not the one with the problem seeing what we are talking about...its others and ther general public....i have some of the only koolo footage ever put to film.....

and much of the information that you told me...you asked me to promise never to tell a soul.....i havnt even talked with zopa about it .

this isnt about me, .its aobut you and the post. you made.."all you have to do is compare"" o.k that makes no sence! no one can compare because there is no info to compare, plain and simple....oh i can comare a written article to a picture of rene and everything wil l click......so my suggestion(not for me..heaven forbid) but for all the people you have suggested compare and look...look and compare....that you obviouysly want to see the truth about what wc looked like in older times.....that you give them the tools to do what you suggested they do

brian

byond1

04-23-2004, 02:56 PM

Redd

04-23-2004, 05:03 PM

Lets see if I got this. Verbal abuse and blackmail is supposed to get Jim R to do your bidding, right?

Phenix

04-23-2004, 06:23 PM

what does foot work means for you FSY? please define

byond1

04-25-2004, 07:46 PM

hmmm perhaps your brown lips will do it

Jim Roselando

04-26-2004, 06:54 AM

Brian,

jim,
o.k lets agree to disagree

Nothing wrong with that! JR

well about the articles you have put out...you told me the only reason you put them out was because of the people , you felt ,where presenting koolo wrong.

I wanted to give out some info. that come right from the sources that was easily traceable. I also love this art and think Leung Jan's genious should be preserved for the future and read about. Nothing is ever for just a simgle reason especially when you want something to be preserved for future generations. JR

you also told me the video was not pin sun....it was incorrect by your own standards and that things where altered purposly

Correction! I told you, and everyone else that had interest, or purchased the tape, that the Sau Sao action in Siu Lin was replaced with a Tan Sao. Everyone was made aware of this as it was my sifu's wishes and the funny thing is that the Tan is the usage in the two man set so its not a big deal IMO. Seeing how both are regarded as Siu Lin training. Also, the Dai Lin two man set in there was something not PS (official system design by LJ) but a San Sik set for developing the attributes that we used at our club but made everyone aware of that to. JR

to my wishs??? im not the one with the problem seeing what we are talking about...its others and ther general public....

Well, then tell them to write me or have you been nominated as their representative for discussing this topic? hehehe I am easy to get in touch with so if anyone who is not happy with the way I share info., or think I am greedy with PSWC info., they can let me know. JR

i have some of the only koolo footage ever put to film.....

Huh? JR

and much of the information that you told me...you asked me to promise never to tell a soul.....i havnt even talked with zopa about it .

I tell everyone that I share info. with to just share it with nice people etc.. Keep it for yourself, develop it so you can feel the attributes and then share with close friends. When I am having chats with people I regard as strangers then I might ask to never tell anyone to see if they will or or not. Kind of how your YKS/Koo Lo sources ask you to do the same as you mentioned. Also, you were in the middle of a possible WC project that you wanted Koo Lo (and other lineage) info. for and I told you I would discuss some stuff with you but did not want it published in a book. These are the wishes (or sometimes tests) of my sifu and kung fu family so I respect them but I also respect the WC art and love to talk about so I use the KFO board and other places to talk about WC. What good is it to have a gem that cannot be shared? JR

this isnt about me, .its aobut you and the post. you made.."all you have to do is compare"" o.k that makes no sence! no one can compare because there is no info to compare, plain and simple....oh i can comare a written article to a picture of rene and everything wil l click......so my suggestion(not for me..heaven forbid) but for all the people you have suggested compare and look...look and compare....that you obviouysly want to see the truth about what wc looked like in older times.....that you give them the tools to do what you suggested they do

Brian Brian Brian! You just want it handed out on a platter! We are all on this list to share and discuss. Much info. has been shared over the past few years and just like you have compiled all my (and Hendrik's) written stuff others can to wouldn't you say? Then they can take it and compare it. It may not be as easy as some may like but that is how it can be done. Yet! Since you have YKS and Koo Lo info. being passed onto to you then you dont need to look to others to place out a reference. Have your sifu or sifu's write up that nicely organized/detailed package and share it with the people who are looking to find links links. Otherwise, and I know this may sounds difficult, they may just have to look back and sort thru the old discussions or make some contacts with people who will help them out. JR

BTW: Please post all the notes you have saved up to share with all who wish to compare.

Regards,

anerlich

04-26-2004, 04:27 PM

i havnt even talked with zopa about it .

I wouldn't discuss anything confidential with "Zopa". What would he know about TWC or PSWC, anyway?

This is a TWC thread. Bug out, OK? ;)

byond1

04-26-2004, 05:53 PM

jim,
o.k we are agreeing to disagree....and you are correct..there is nothing wrong with that...

i was following what you beleive to be the truth up till your last paragraph. again you are not the supreme only faunt of knowledge for koolo. i dont want anything from you. i know it must make you feel all warm inside thinking i need you for learning anything.
i stopped talking to you when you started giving me missinformation.

no, i am not the public spokes man....i made the ignorant statment 6 mounths ago....suggesting people compare yks to cho family to koolo. when i actually thought about it...i realised it was imposible....so here you are suggesting the same thing. i jthought perhaps my post might help you see the truth..... .....you expect people to look and compare with no information to look and compare iwth . my sifu isnt the one talking in a public forum , nor making your suggestions.....which is why it isnt on him....it is on you to help people do what you suggest they do..if you want them to be able to do it..what part dont you understand?? it is illogical. if you dont want to empower people, than dont make suggestions that they cant use....its a waist of everyones time

anerlich....take your central line and stuff it..lol
brian

saifa5k

04-26-2004, 06:36 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by anerlich
[B]

I wouldn't discuss anything confidential with "Zopa". What would he know about TWC or PSWC, anyway?

**You mean "Greg Chapman" ;).
Dave c

anerlich

04-26-2004, 07:14 PM

anerlich....take your central line and stuff it..lol
brian

You wish. Stop bending over, you are not my type.

And I believe it's spelt "Gregg" ;)

Jim Roselando

04-27-2004, 04:47 AM

Brian,

o.k we are agreeing to disagree....and you are correct..there is nothing wrong with that...

Agreed. JR

i was following what you beleive to be the truth up till your last paragraph. again you are not the supreme only faunt of knowledge for koolo.

Never claimed to be (and everyone who knows me knows that) but I do speak about what can be proven and is the standard practice of the Koo Lo/Fung family. JR

i dont want anything from you. i know it must make you feel all warm inside thinking i need you for learning anything.
i stopped talking to you when you started giving me missinformation.

ROFLOL! I dont know what your goal is here but its starting to get funny. I kind of remember you asking me about inexpensive places to live as you wanted to relocate so that you could train this art! Then! I also remember telling you not to move to Boston! Then (again), not long ago, you contacted our Maryland study group for info. when you noticed he posted some info. with reference to Koo Lo on this site. I guess we remember things differently and this is also not the topic of this thread so we are wasting everyones time with nonsense. JR

no, i am not the public spokes man....i made the ignorant statment 6 mounths ago....suggesting people compare yks to cho family to koolo. when i actually thought about it...i realised it was imposible....so here you are suggesting the same thing. i jthought perhaps my post might help you see the truth..... .....you expect people to look and compare with no information to look and compare iwth . my sifu isnt the one talking in a public forum , nor making your suggestions.....which is why it isnt on him....it is on you to help people do what you suggest they do..if you want them to be able to do it..what part dont you understand?? it is illogical. if you dont want to empower people, than dont make suggestions that they cant use....its a waist of everyones time

Post my info.. Its time to help out with this situation! You have it so post it in one spot so that people can have it! If guys like you can collect the info. so can others. Thats how many of us compiled info. over the years! JR

Post it for everyone! JR

Best of luck with you WC studies.

Phenix

04-27-2004, 06:09 AM

live is tough.

reneritchie

04-27-2004, 07:53 AM

I understand we live in the age of entitlement, but no one is entitled to anything beyond what they themselves cultivate. Anyone can compare SNWCK, KLPS, and Cho. They just have to make the sacrifices and put in the effort to do it. That's kung-fu anyway--effort.

Jim -- Sorry about the Habs trouncing your Bruins. If it makes you feel any better, looks like we'll get beat by a team from a place that doesn't even have ice. C'est la vie :)

Brian -- You're training YKS with Bud or one of Bud's students?

Jim Roselando

04-27-2004, 08:45 AM

Hey RR!

Jim -- Sorry about the Habs trouncing your Bruins. If it makes you feel any better, looks like we'll get beat by a team from a place that doesn't even have ice. C'est la vie

Tell me about it! We were up and then they came back to Boston! I had tickets and what a beating we got! OUCH Lousy way to go down but what can you do! They wanted it more than us I guess!

Great series either way!

:D

See ya,

Phenix

04-27-2004, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
I understand we live in the age of entitlement, but no one is entitled to anything beyond what they themselves cultivate. Anyone can compare SNWCK, KLPS, and Cho. They just have to make the sacrifices and put in the effort to do it. That's kung-fu anyway--effort.

Rene,

Very True.

Jim,

May be this is a great Idea. We three can write a book. HAHAHAHA

But then, I think it is more complicated then that about comparison.

WCK in my believe or what I have found out has 3 levels:

1, the pure technics level where it deals with only attack and counter..

2, The dynamic momentum where all the above become a live and no specific technics or mo jiu but momentum dealling.

3, the energy transcending where all the above become a natural response from the silence. "remember : come accept , goes send back, using silence to subdue the action?"

In White Crane of Fujian it talks about the Heaven, man, earth which transform to Shape, potential, and method.

So, the for me, the shape is level 1 kind of deal, the potential is level 2, the method is 3rd level: meaning the Mind Method (which is the sum faat)

Now, the third level is the one link with the Non Duality or Zen and it was introduce with Chi Sau . whatever way one do, but one has to have the Sum faat. It is beyond that conscious thinking mind or logic. it streching the conscious thinking mind.
IT is not untial one realized the 3rd level that the come recieve,.... using silence to subdue the action can be implemented. However, the implementation will not be Tan Sau or Fook SAu... it can be anything. it is in the realm of NON expectation and flexflow transformation. One will not be capable of silence if a guy rush in and penetrate deep into one's defence. But the 3rd level one not bother at all, because there is only about silence not about how close one close to the body... sure that call for a great handling of momentum or fa jing or FAAR Jing, issue or neutralization of force/ momentum. Thus, without the level 2, one cannot jump to level three. and each level cannot be understood until one has raised to that level.

take a beginer who stick with need to do tan sau this way and that way. then in a fight, the level two guys just walks in and slam the other guy down. the first level beginer will have no idea what is going on because there is no tan sau....etc.

But the third level one will see it clearly as the other guy trying to hug the level two and the level two is slam him with an elbow strike make use the incoming momentum from the other guy. So, there is no Tan Sau, the wrist gate, the elbow gate, the shoulder gate. it is just one flow.

but then the 3rd level guy might have just grap a wrist of attacker , turn and sift side way, the instant right before the grapping touch him while the arm is almost fully strecth. That just throw the incoming guys in a spining fashion.

There the level 2 guy will stunt how the 3rd level guy so litely bounce the attacker without resistance.

So, my conclusion is this. A XYZ of first level will have a difficult time to compare with a GHJ of the 2nd level. The one of the 3rd level will be looking at as talking JUNK by the first level. because the first level always want to have things done this long, this wide, this deep, this ...., and my lineage's way, my sifu's way....., my school's logo....
all those rules. So, how to compare?

Can't!
But if the people in the same level meet. then without comparing they know. That is so easy.

So what is tradition? What is original? What is the most orthodox?
the level 1 person never realy understant the art. what in his mind is only this long and that wide and this steps and that steps...
the level 2 are experimentors who dont give a damm about those stuffy this long, this wide..... win or lost.... just want to know what the heck is going on. everything is facinating and love to try and ero.....experimenting...

the level 3 are liberals. everything is ok. nature is beutiful.

for the 1st level, there is mmA. for the 2nd level what is not mmA, for the 3rd level, aint everything nature the way it is and I have a choice how I want to response? what mmA?

So, what is tradition? what is original? what is complete?

You guys still want to compare how one does tan sau? see it from the angle of male, female, nature, my sifu said, his uncle told, her aunt claim?

Get real, those comparison is not going to far but raise bunch of confusion.
Get to 3rd level, left Shaws brother or HSU HUK make movies about those tan say..,.. ect to seduce more level zero into WCK. hehehe. and the rest is fun.

I dont know. :D

Phenix

04-27-2004, 09:57 AM

Rene, Jim, Brain, KJ, ALan, JOy, ernie....

my favorite song!

"What A Wonderful World"

Don't know much about history
don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
don't know much about the WCK I took
But I do know that I beat you
and I know that if you beat me, too
what a wonderful world this would be

Don't know much about geography
don't know much trigonometry
Don't know much about algebra
don't know what a slide rule is for
But I did know that one and one is two
and if this one could be with you
what a wonderful world this would be

Now I don't claim to be an 'A' student
and NOT I'm tryin' to be.... :D

Come on get away from those stuffy stuffs. Get spring get ZEN get van helsing!

http://rd.yahoo.com/movies/clips/1808406421/1808558936/?http://movies.yahoo.com/forms?cf=hv/popup&id=1808406421&lid=rnv-56-p.1264046-127348,rnv-100-p.1264047-127348,rnv-300-p.1264048-127348,wmv-56-p.1264049-127348,wmv-100-p.1264050-127348,wmv-300-p.1264051-127348&tid=1808558936&dist=Universal&type

Phenix

04-27-2004, 10:14 AM

The more I study those old document, the more I see how open and liberal those people are. VERY ZEN! So, what is the tradition? open and liberal! otherwise one end up with that stuffy cold winter then spring!

this is Leong Bok-Lau and Yim Wing-Chun for me. and Boy I would like to be that Van Helsing. So strong in 1st Chakra. So strong in 3rd Chakra. otherwise, he will be running for survial and stay home due to fear of uncertainty instead of going to the castle of count dracula.

http://www.impawards.com/2004/van_helsing_ver3.html

Why not?

PaulH

04-27-2004, 10:53 AM

Hendrik,

Why is it that you have "Use silence to subdue action" while the YM people have " When hand free thrust forward"? What do you see in the difference?

Regards,
PH

Jim Roselando

04-27-2004, 10:58 AM

Hey Hendrik,

May be this is a great Idea. We three can write a book. HAHAHAHA

;)

WCK in my believe or what I have found out has 3 levels:

1, the pure technics level where it deals with only attack and counter..

2, The dynamic momentum where all the above become a live and no specific technics or mo jiu but momentum dealling.

3, the energy transcending where all the above become a natural response from the silence. "remember : come accept , goes send back, using silence to subdue the action?"

Ah! Excellent! Level 3 would be he greats like Wang Xiang Zhai, Sun Lu Tang, Ueshiba, etc.. Granted not WCK but indeed level three with the same powers. I understand why you state: The WC engine has been lost.

How do we get it back?

Jim Roselando

04-27-2004, 11:43 AM

Hey Paul,

Why is it that you have "Use silence to subdue action" while the YM people have " When hand free thrust forward"? What do you see in the difference?

Part of that is also the Loi Lau; Recieve What Comes!

Hendrik help me understand this a bit so I am giving this a shot! Dont shoot me if I mess it up! hehehe

How do you Recieve What Comes? Let him come in and control him/bounce him etc..

Well, it may not be the exact same sentence but Leung Jan stated to Wong Wah Sam:

Use Quiet To Overcome The Active!

The big question is how do we achieve the Quiet/Silence???

New subject/topic time! This is breaking away from the original intent of this topic!

See ya,

04-27-2004, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Use Quiet To Overcome The Active!

The big question is how do we achieve the Quiet/Silence???

One must develop skills for "listening," no? It hearkens back to the underlying engine and ‘the small idea.’ In need of cultivation, yes. Easy, no. But not yet lost, else this conversation would be unlikely.

Regards,
- kj

Phenix

04-27-2004, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Why is it that you have "Use silence to subdue action" while the YM people have " When hand free thrust forward"? What do you see in the difference?

Regards,
PH

it said,
come accept, goes return,
using silence to subdue action,
when hand free thrust forward,
Use both Kang and rou.

hahahaha, so you didnt heard the full Praise the Spring Song.

Ok, so let me say, if you dont have the "listern to silence" skill or listern skill . Doesnt work.

And as what is Kang and Rou. They are the characteristics of Jing or force or... what ever you want to call it.

Kang is not hard, hard is something hard and brittle, Kang is hard and elastic within it.

Rou is not soft scattering , Rou is absorb and elastic in one.

So those are the characteristic of Jing.

So, if you got a broken arrow. you can be hard. but not kang. because your dynamic structure limit you to not be able to do so.

Hehehehehe. lots of old chinese secret.

Yes, alots of things are well define. otherwise, how can I bs :D you every a few weeks with new stuffs? I am no eistien. hehehheeh. I am just a copy cat. dont you know? hehhehe :D

http://rd.yahoo.com/movies/clips/1808406421/1808558936/?http://movies.yahoo.com/forms?cf=hv/popup&id=1808406421&lid=rnv-56-p.1264046-127348,rnv-100-p.1264047-127348,rnv-300-p.1264048-127348,wmv-56-p.1264049-127348,wmv-100-p.1264050-127348,wmv-300-p.1264051-127348&tid=1808558936&dist=Universal&type

may be I am count dracula. Not Van Helsing. and devil give me a wing -- wing as in wing Chun. And you cannot kill me now because I had already transform. Too late Paul.

Rene,
it will be a great fiction of Wing Chun with Zen and Van Helsing and Count Dracula and Wing to fly... See the wolfman takes one to ground. but Count Dracula has the Wing to fly.... hehehehehhe. :D

Phenix

04-27-2004, 08:22 PM

Jim,

The big question is how do we achieve the Quiet/Silence???-----Jim

here is what LJ said :D

-----------------------------------------------------

Here is a part of kept WCK kuen kuit of the LJ --> Yip Man --> ..... line.

¦]½t¦U´N¡@®í³~¦PÂk
Áö¤ª©wªk¡@ÅÜ¤Æ¤H¬°¡@ÁI©vµ´¾Ç¡@¦®¦b_×¨_
¦×¨_¦¨¦ò¡@¥j¤µ´X¤H¡@µL¬°µL§Ú¡@µL¬ÉµL²×

Translation:

Condition depends on situation, however, different paths get to the same place.

Even it is said to be a fix method, the change and transformation is depend on the operator. The ultimate of the Zen teaching, the mission is to cultivate oneself.

Attained enlightement with this same body (in one life span) is rare, how many person can reach that state through out the past and future?
Non action and Non me, NON boundary and Non end.

----------------------------------------

That is the tradition. very Zen very liberal.

Phenix

04-27-2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by kj

One must develop skills for "listening," no? It hearkens back to the underlying engine and ‘the small idea.? In need of cultivation, yes. Easy, no. But not yet lost, else this conversation would be unlikely.

Regards,
- kj

You have come a long way KJ :D. ----- virginia cool

Phenix

04-27-2004, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

How do we get it back?

Ask sister KJ. She is a Nun from Ng Mui's order in the past life.

I am a Zen monk turn into Count Dracula.....1852 after the burning of Kheng Fa opera association.....

anerlich

04-27-2004, 10:12 PM

here is what LJ said

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps you should follow his example.

Quit 'jacking this TWC thread, guys.

Nick Forrer

04-28-2004, 01:47 AM

'Quit 'jacking this TWC thread, guys.'

Andrew, the original question concerned what Leung Jan did and didn't teach - and how we can account for differences (particularly footwork) across different lines. I dont see that a discussion of Cho vs Ip man Kuen Kuit has strayed far from this path (esp. when you consider how far off topic other threads can get).

Although PR for the new Van Helsing movie may be a bit of a stretch;)

Phenix

04-28-2004, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by Nick Forrer

Although PR for the new Van Helsing movie may be a bit of a stretch;)

What is wing chun? and who define it?

perhaps, he who PR for new shao lin tale may be a bit of stretch;)

where is the eternal spring hall ? you can find the castle of dracula in the map! :D

there is anti-qing and anti non-Zen.

Phenix

04-28-2004, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by anerlich

Perhaps you should follow his example.

Quit 'jacking this TWC thread, guys.

This is a great one! :D

if what LJ said is Jacking WC traditional, then who is traditional WCK? may be we both are traditional. each in its own way? :D

Jim Roselando

04-28-2004, 05:23 AM

Hey KJ & Hendrik,

One must develop skills for "listening," no? It hearkens back to the underlying engine and ‘the small idea.’ In need of cultivation, yes. Easy, no. But not yet lost, else this conversation would be unlikely.

Ok! Good point about listening but is listening and silence the same or both part of the big (or little hehe) picture? They must go hand in hand but listening with ones skin, and total body awareness, versus silencing the mind and achieving the stage 3 level Hendrik mentions that guys like Wang Xiang Zhai had. Who in the WC world has this level/ability today?

Gotta run,

Phenix

04-28-2004, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hey KJ & Hendrik,

Ok! Good point about listening but is listening and silence the same or both part of the big (or little hehe) picture? They must go hand in hand but listening with ones skin, and total body awareness, versus silencing the mind and achieving the stage 3 level Hendrik mentions that guys like Wang Xiang Zhai had. Who in the WC world has this level/ability today?

ofcorse is must be me and RENE in Rene's new fiction ----One night in Kwan Zhou 1852. (rene, that title is great, i steal from, one night in bangkok, one night in paris...:D)

Rene turn Wolfman and I turn Dracula. and I have Wings and fly too! :D

big or little picture? depend on you watch it in cinema or with your car's 5inch LCD. silence? how good is your stereo's noise floor?

KJ, get a bose headphone

http://www.bose.com/controller;jsessionid=APlAvyuvjJYj1AMHV1ZElEIfxm1w GRwd1umsEMmRJh8ERdbR3j9S[/url]!-1457912998?event=VIEW_STATIC_PAGE_EVENT&url=/learning/noise_reduction.jsp&linksource=avb_img_nrtlearningcenter&pageName=/home_entertainment/headphones_headsets/headphones/qc2/index.jsp

great for silence even on the plane! hehehehe

PaulH

04-28-2004, 07:48 AM

Thanks, Hendrik! Praise the spring! Now I see its elastic coil power! =)

Regards,
PH

P.S. Jim, cultivate a flexible mind if one wants to subdue action. This has to do with right understanding and practice. Silence is space, buffer, and flexibility as Hendrik pointed out.

anerlich

04-28-2004, 03:43 PM

may be we both are traditional. each in its own way?

Jeez, that was profound (not) :rolleyes:

Chango

04-28-2004, 06:16 PM

perhaps, he who PR for new shao lin tale may be a bit of stretch. where is the eternal spring hall ? you can find the castle of dracula in the map!

Hendrick,
Ok so you have a problem with the shaolin history of wing/weng chun. Do you have to continue to show disrespect to those who have shaolin roots? We all have grown tired of this. It is clear you cannot discuss this topic with out showing disrespect. This only reflects on your charecter. As I disagree with your White crane and single form theory. seemingly based on your lineages story and a few simple body shapes and a few techniques. No one has shown your lineage the disrespect you are demonstrating here. So with out going down the same tired path I will simply ask you in a polite way to please stop the disrespect of the lineages with shaolin history.

You should keep in mind that even the most comon history links it'self to the shaolin temple by way of NG Mui being a "Shaolin nun". So please be advised not to show such disrespect.

Chango

Phenix

04-28-2004, 06:30 PM

Hello Chango,

Ok so you have a problem with the shaolin history of wing/weng chun. Do you have to continue to show disrespect to those who have shaolin roots? ----------

Hahahaha, do you understand the context of what I am presenting or lost in the words? beware of you are cheated by your own concsious thinking.

You are Chan guy right? how come soooo stuffy? : Chan guy suppose to be liberal! D

We all have grown tired of this. --------

Relax man. keep breathing and open your heart and be a liberal. hahahaha.

It is clear you cannot discuss this topic with out showing disrespect. ------

You sure love to judge others. Isnt it Chan is about NON Judgemental? :D

This only reflects on your charecter. ---------

Sure, you mean Van Helsing or Count Dracula? :D

As I disagree with your White crane and single form theory. seemingly based on your lineages story and a few simple body shapes and a few techniques. No one has shown your lineage the disrespect you are demonstrating here.

So with out going down the same tired path I will simply ask you in a polite way to please stop the disrespect of the lineages with shaolin history. ------

Who talks about lineage? hahahha.
Isnt it about Van Helsing and Castle of Count Dracula? Dont jump gun man.

You should keep in mind that even the most comon history links it'self to the shaolin temple by way of NG Mui being a "Shaolin nun". So please be advised not to show such disrespect. -------

How can you be a Zen guy if you stuck rigid attach to what you think? Isnt it Zen guy even burn Buddha statue? hahahaha

Wait until you understand Chan or Zen. Then, hahahaa.

See, if what you know is the fact no one can change it. if what you know is not the fact, then it never exist. Doesnt matter who says what right? Fact sort itself out.

Open you heart and re read what I am posting. hahahhaa. dont let your conscious thinking mind cheat you. That is much more important, right?

hahahah, Chango, Chango. Chan is so vast and nothing attach. I hope you see it soon.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, the following is from the Shao lin forum. if you like to discuss Shao lin or find other disrespect because of thier view please go over there and discuss.

----------------------------------------

Southern Shaolin...
...is not my area of expertise. It's a real tangled mess, to be truthful, if you try to get to the facts. Figures like Gee Sim are very difficult to validate historically. Even the southern temple is hard to prove. Now there are three temples in southern China trying to lay claim to that heritage.

The myths are easier - you might poke around the southern forum. Since they have more stake in the reality of those myths, given that the 5 elders are the founders of their styles, they'd have more to say.

If you want to address this historically, I'll refer you to The Origins of the Tiandihui by Dian Murray. Good luck with that.

__________________
Gene Ching

Gangsterfist

04-28-2004, 06:43 PM

Sure, you mean Van Helsing or Count Dracula?

Hahaha still using these van helsing references huh? You must really like vampires :D.

However, which one are you? Are you just a human fighting the undead, or are you the undead being hunted?

Gangsterfist

04-28-2004, 06:49 PM

Hahahaha,

I started that thread about history of shaolin temples around the 1600s. However, I wanted some basic history and myths. I was researching for a creative writing project I just started working on recently.

I did not want any factual information, because honestly there is no "factual" info on southern shaolin stuff. Its all hearsay and opinion with no documented evidence.

However, if any of you know some good reading to recomend to me for research purposes. I know in japan it was the beging of the tokugawa peroid and they had just conquered the island of okinawa. In china the manchu's were apparently attacking some southern shaolin temples because they saw them a threat.

Anyways, I deeply appollogize for hijacking the thread I never intended this thread to be a dicussion of that sort of thing. However, if any of you can give me some info on history during that time it would help me write my story.

Back to TWC.

BTW, I heard Phil Redmond got Grand Master title (I think) in TWC recently - Congrats Phil.

Phenix

04-28-2004, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Gangsterfist

Hahaha still using these van helsing references huh? You must really like vampires :D.

However, which one are you? Are you just a human fighting the undead, or are you the undead being hunted?

Although PR for the new Van Helsing movie may be a bit of a stretch Heheheh, even Nick pick at me, that is fun.

I love Van helsing and Count Dracula, they are two sides of a coin ---- the ultimate of Duality.

Who am I ?

May be I am trying to describe:

----------------------------------
Here is a part of kept WCK kuen kuit of the LJ --> Yip Man --> ..... line.

¦]½t¦U´N¡@®í³~¦PÂk
Áö¤ª©wªk¡@ÅÜ¤Æ¤H¬°¡@ÁI©vµ´¾Ç¡@¦®¦b_×¨_
¦×¨_¦¨¦ò¡@¥j¤µ´X¤H¡@µL¬°µL§Ú¡@µL¬ÉµL²×

Translation:

Condition depends on situation, however, different paths get to the same place.

Even it is said to be a fix method, the change and transformation is depend on the operator. The ultimate of the Zen teaching, the mission is to cultivate oneself.

Attained enlightement with this same body (in one life span) is rare, how many person can reach that state through out the past and future?
Non action and Non me, NON boundary and Non end.

-------------

in a fun way?

remember Non Me, Non boudary? .... may be I am drunk and fantasy the Van Helsing, Dracula, and Wolfman. May be I am not and trying to open your mind so that it is NON ME, NON Boundary? so you can get to the Third level. hahahahaha. what do you think? you need Sum Fat to go to the third level right? :D

hhahhahaa, anything you grasp is ok with me. but relax :D

_______________________________

I was reading a book about reading the context. there is a story in there " the author was having dinner in a hotel and a guy come up to him and asked him "dont you think that biC@@ is great." out of disgust he just keep quite, thinking this man is just low life. After a while another guy comes up and asking him, "we talked in the national dog show today?"
there he laught at himself. A true story, I think the book's title is sometime about out of control.

may be I am a low life? may be I am a Zen guy? May be I am a Nuts? .. hahahahah. everything is ok. the point is you know the existance of level 1,2,3 and the sum fat right? that is important? either it is from Transivania or Shao lin, doesnt matter. NO ME NO BOUNDARY. Get to level 3. Wing Chun needs you to be there. otherwise, the wolfman is going to tear you apart.

Phenix

04-28-2004, 07:15 PM

Gansterfist,

you want a fun one you need to get creative.
and ideas are about adding two or more things to make a new one.

So, when apple meet Newton's head, there comes the center of Gravity. :D

So, mix the Wing Chun, Count Dracula, Van helsing, Red boat, Vantican, Shao Lin..... you can have a movie spread the horizon from the east to the west. from China to Europa. From Buddhism to Catholic...

up for your imagination.

You know what is Zen? Zen is about Open, vast, like that small honda civic and when you hop in you feel so spacial inside.

Narrow and Stuffy stuff is no Zen but dead.

If your thoughts is your reality, if your intent is your goal. Then, you got to know your mind is the programmer, and your buddha nature is that silence alertness which never born thus never die. and that is your original face. The thing that beyond thought, intent, mind.......

So why not mix all the things up in an open, spacia, and vast way ...
That is Zen, that can be in a fiction, that can be in a martial art.....
can be in anything.

The true face of Zen hahahah. you know it is there but cant pin point it out. ok, time to get to the 3rd level. :D

anerlich

04-28-2004, 07:54 PM

Ok so you have a problem with the shaolin history of wing/weng chun. Do you have to continue to show disrespect to those who have shaolin roots?

Only some, like the authors of a recent book, seem to want to claim that we do not *all* have Shaolin roots. IMO it is they who show disrespect, to those they put in their fictional "Popular Wing Chun" basket.

We all have grown tired of this.

Oh hell yeah, especially of the people I mentioned and their associates.

and ideas are about adding two or more things to make a new one.

What, like MMA?

"You know what is Zen? Zen is about Open, vast, like that small honda civic and when you hop in you feel so spacial inside."

So, Zen is like the Tardis?
:rolleyes:

Gangsterfist

04-28-2004, 08:00 PM

actually I am writing a comic book. It has all the archetypes of a good comic book story. Betrayal, revenge, secret styles of martial arts, deep character developement, love, more betrayal, long hard quests, etc.

Its going to revolve around martial arts and take place probably around the 1600's. I have the basic story and history written out. I just need more info to develope the story so it all flows together.

Phenix

04-28-2004, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

What, like MMA?

So, Zen is like the Tardis?
:rolleyes:

Sure, why not? MMA is great!

Tardis? hahahaaha. if Tardis can contribute to open heart. It must be Zen! :D

Phenix

04-28-2004, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
actually I am writing a comic book. It has all the archetypes of a good comic book story. Betrayal, revenge, secret styles of martial arts, deep character developement, love, more betrayal, long hard quests, etc.

Its going to revolve around martial arts and take place probably around the 1600's. I have the basic story and history written out. I just need more info to develope the story so it all flows together.

You know, this is the third wave, and cell phone means there is no longer locatioin boundary among us. Make a comic book about Wing Chun, Van helsing, Count Dracula, Ng Mui, .....
everyone has thier stories and how they turn good or evil or .....

must be a great stories... hahahaha

anerlich

04-28-2004, 09:29 PM

cell phone means there is no longer locatioin boundary among us.

Tell that to refugees from the Middle East trying to get past Australian immigration. :(

duende

04-28-2004, 09:36 PM

Anerlich,

Come on... what's up with the unwarranted hostility??? There has been plenty of positive interaction between your own school and our's in the past.

I don't want to side track this thread, so instead I invite you to PM me if you like, in hope of putting these issues of yours to rest.

AND.... yes we are all tired of this argument.

Phoenix,

I thought you had finally put these hang-ups of yours to rest. What happened?? Did you have a bad virtual SLT experience?? No new WC info for you to rip-off lately??? Did you break your arrow off in your pillow again??

yylee

04-28-2004, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Phenix

The true face of Zen hahahah. you know it is there but cant pin point it out. ok, time to get to the 3rd level. :D

A "3rd level song", may be perfect for William Hung (where is ONJ these days? still in Australia?) :D

I'm saying all the things that I know you'll like
Making good conversation
I gotta handle you just right
You know what I mean
I took you to an intimate restaurant
Then to a Vel Helsing movie
There's nothing left to "Tan" about
Unless it's horizontally

Let's get 3rd level, 3rd level
I wanna get 3rd level
Let's get into 3rd level
Let me hear your Jing talk, your Shen talk
Let me hear your Yee talk

I've been patient, I've been good
Tried to keep my Tan on the center
It's gettin' hard this holdin' back
If you know what I mean

I'm sure you'll understand my point of view
We know each other mentally
You gotta know that you're bringin' out
The Dracula in me

Let's get 3rd level, 3rd level
I wanna get 3rd level
Let's get into 3rd level
Let me hear your Shen talk, your Yee talk
Let me hear your Qi talk

....

Let's get Dracula, Dracula
I wanna get Dracula
Let's get into Dracula
Let me hear your Tan talk
Let me hear your Bong talk

:D

Phenix

04-28-2004, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by duende

Phoenix,

I thought you had finally put these hang-ups of yours to rest. What happened?? Did you have a bad virtual SLT experience?? No new WC info for you to rip-off lately??? Did you break your arrow off in your pillow again??

hahahahaha, You sure you are in the right forum?

if you want to join us here to sing the 3rd level song with us and William Hung, and to have fun and have ZEN
You certainly welcome!

otherwise, you are in the wrong forum.
BTW, you can go to the following forum:

Southern Shaolin...
...is not my area of expertise. It's a real tangled mess, to be truthful, if you try to get to the facts. Figures like Gee Sim are very difficult to validate historically. Even the southern temple is hard to prove. Now there are three temples in southern China trying to lay claim to that heritage.

The myths are easier - you might poke around the southern forum. Since they have more stake in the reality of those myths, given that the 5 elders are the founders of their styles, they'd have more to say.

If you want to address this historically, I'll refer you to The Origins of the Tiandihui by Dian Murray. Good luck with that.

__________________
Gene Ching

Phenix

04-28-2004, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by yylee

A "3rd level song", may be perfect for William Hung (where is ONJ these days? still in Australia?) :D

I'm saying all the things that I know you'll like
Making good conversation
I....

Let's get Dracula, Dracula
I wanna get Dracula
Let's get into Dracula
Let me hear your Tan talk
Let me hear your Bong talk

:D

great song yy! I will go get William Hung!

Ernie, can you get paris too? :D

Phenix

04-28-2004, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

Tell that to refugees from the Middle East trying to get past Australian immigration. :(

Australian immigration is not a place right? :D

you have thier cell phone numbers? :D
I heard phone bill is very in expansive in Australia.

Nick Forrer

04-29-2004, 03:30 AM

Hey Hendrick

If you're into duality you've got the wrong gothic character- its not Dracula/Van Helsing you're after- its Dr Jeckell and Mr Hyde:p

GF

Alan Moore fan?

Chango

04-29-2004, 04:11 AM

Hendrik,
Once again I will maintian the higher ground on this one. I will not stoop to arguing with you. You can bring up Zen and attempt to use it in your web.

How can you be a Zen guy if you stuck rigid attach to what you think? Isnt it Zen guy even burn Buddha statue? hahahaha ..... Wait until you understand Chan or Zen. Then, hahahaa.

I must admit I'm not the expert in all Chan or Zen. But I do know it is not a good practice to tell others how much they don't understand about Zen. while being cryptic and rude. This behavior reflects a low self esteem. Giving rise to a need to put down others to make one feel better about one's self. Maybe while looking for selflessness you lost site of who you really are! thus feeling the need to behave as you do.

But at this point these are your issue to work through. I honestly hope you do. I do not wish to debate with you about Zen or anything else. But to just to be clear I'm simply asking you to reframe from disrespect of the "Shaolin" lineage. Given your history there is no way your statement can be taken lightly or just brushed aside. It is not a stretch in logic or out of reason to ask you to show the same respect that has been shown to you and your lineage.

Chango

Phil,
Congradulation on the recognition in TWC. I wish you continued sucess.

Phenix

04-29-2004, 07:00 AM

Hello Chango,

Once again I will maintian the higher ground on this one. I will not stoop to arguing with you. You can bring up Zen and attempt to use it in your web. -----

I, higher ground, not stop to argue...... very self center?
dont you think so? that is suffering

I must admit I'm not the expert in all Chan or Zen. ------

Then why not listern deeply? instead of jump gun? hahahhaa.

But I do know it is not a good practice to tell others how much they don't understand about Zen.-------------

Hehehehehe,
Instead of telling other what is a good or a not good practice on a subject you dont know?
since you admit to not be an expert of Chan or Zen, why not accept that you dont know Chan or Zen?

BTW, There is no ALL Chan or Zen. There is only Chan or Zen.

while being cryptic and rude. This behavior reflects a low self esteem. Giving rise to a need to put down others to make one feel better about one's self. Maybe while looking for selflessness you lost site of who you really are! thus feeling the need to behave as you do. But at this point these are your issue to work through.--------------

One always can blame the clear mirror when one sees one's dirty face in it, right?

I honestly hope you do. I do not wish to debate with you about Zen or anything else.-----------

what are you doing posting here? :D

But to just to be clear I'm simply asking you to reframe from disrespect of the "Shaolin" lineage.--------

Here is about Van helsing, Dracula,.... and on and on and on.
In other forum it said:

------------------------
Southern Shaolin...
...is not my area of expertise. It's a real tangled mess, to be truthful, if you try to get to the facts. Figures like Gee Sim are very difficult to validate historically. Even the southern temple is hard to prove. Now there are three temples in southern China trying to lay claim to that heritage.

The myths are easier - you might poke around the southern forum. Since they have more stake in the reality of those myths, given that the 5 elders are the founders of their styles, they'd have more to say.

If you want to address this historically, I'll refer you to The Origins of the Tiandihui by Dian Murray. Good luck with that.

--------------------------

you certainly mistaken this forum with that one. hahahaha.

Given your history there is no way your statement can be taken lightly or just brushed aside. It is not a stretch in logic or out of reason to ask you to show the same respect that has been shown to you and your lineage. ------

Do you watch saturday night life? That is real Zen and open. :D

If you love to watch history channel dont switch to scifi or saturday night life channel and complain. :D

A Zen song
----------------
Open your eyes bro,
Open your ears bro,
Open your heart bro,
Open your mind bro,
and dont get stuck on what you think is real.
listern,
listern,
listern,
and listern to the context.

no open no grow
no open no grow
no open no grow

Open your eyes bro
Open your ears bro
Open your heart bro
Open your mind bro
and dont get stuck to want to force the world on how to turn.
look
look
look

take off your sun glass bro
take off your mp3 bro
take off your logo bro
take off your buggy memory module bro
look
listern
look

Phenix

04-29-2004, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Hey Hendrick

If you're into duality you've got the wrong gothic character- its not Dracula/Van Helsing you're after- its Dr Jeckell and Mr Hyde:p

GF

Alan Moore fan?

Nick,

I am a DAMO fan, I am into NON Duality. :D

and these

http://www.wes.4mg.com/

Nick Forrer

04-29-2004, 07:42 AM

duende

04-29-2004, 07:55 AM

Nick,

Check out V is Vendetta if you get the chance!

Phoenix,

There is soo much egotistical, mind-numbing, ranting in your posts that it is painfully obvious that there is no room in your pathetic scattered life for any concept or acceptance of Chan.

You are your life's biggest joke. When you choose to stop laughing, then only then will YOU BE ABLE TO LISTEN.

Still self-expressing everyday in your mirror aren't you.

Non dual??? HAAAAA You don't know yourself!! How could anyone be more non-dual then you. There is your fantasy of you, and then their is the reality. Your just too daft to realize it.

Phenix

04-29-2004, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by duende

Phoenix,

There is soo much egotistical, mind-numbing, ranting in your posts that it is painfully obvious that there is no room in your pathetic scattered life for any concept or acceptance of Chan.

You are your life's biggest joke. When you choose to stop laughing, then only then will YOU BE ABLE TO LISTEN.

Still self-expressing everyday in your mirror aren't you.

Non dual??? HAAAAA You don't know yourself!! How could anyone be more non-dual then you. There is your fantasy of you, and then their is the reality. Your just too daft to realize it.

Hehehehe, I see a guy trying to post all the negative toward the other guy who he has no idea and know nothing about.

Isnt it non dual to see the whole situation? instead of staying in duallity, take one side or stuck with distortion perception and pushing as much negative as possible to the other side?

OK, lets make use of this above situation to illustrate what is usefull in practicing WCK trandition, transcent the negative in coming situation into a Non-dual.

As it says Comes accept, goes return, using the silence to subdue the action. . See, one's goes is other's comes.. Be able to see the comes and goes of every situation in a full with in the silence is non dual. so no, it is not about, he comes I accept, He goes I return.... it is about perceive everything.

as oyama put it :

----------------------------------

Oyama in his synthesis of kyokushin karate is the concept of Zen. In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. Can this concept not be put to great use in karate?

Today in Japan, Mas Oyama heads the International Karate Organization, Kyokushin, one of the largest karate federations in the world.
While fighting, you stand facing your opponent. When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself. This entire process takes only a fraction of a second, but what if the incoming attack is a fraction of a second faster?

If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception. Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen," a thus, he makes Zen an integral part of his system.

-----------------------------

as in chi sau pracitce, when one lost one's natural alertness or full view of the total situation and trying to forcing out come due to what one thinks or theoritized in one's mind, that is in the realm of duality.
so one will be blind by oneself there. and often this is where one got oneself into trouble.

hahahhaha, hey bro, open your heart open your mind then you see.

Van Helsing needs NON-DUAL to go to the castle of count dracula.

duende

04-29-2004, 08:26 AM

Whoa...

don't place your trips on me.

I guess you are trying to say that your posts have nothing to do with who you are??? I mean I fully realize, that cut and paste is the second form in your Wing Chun, but I think that still is a valid testament to your character.

Your lack of depth never ceases to amaze me.

Phenix

04-29-2004, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by duende
Whoa...

don't place your trips on me.

I guess you are trying to say that your posts have nothing to do with who you are??? I mean I fully realize, that cut and paste is the second form in your Wing Chun, but I think that still is a valid testament to your character.

Your lack of depth never ceases to amaze me.

I saw a guy scolding another guy with non-sense out of his own anger .

Isnt it cool to be ZEN? :D

peace

Nick Forrer

04-29-2004, 09:08 AM

'Check out V is Vendetta if you get the chance!'

Funnily enough its the next thing on my reading list. I havent read promethea either- but looks interesting.

Speaking of Vendettas.....................

Where's the Mod when you need him:D

duende

04-29-2004, 09:46 AM

Nick,

Phoenix has been warned time and time again by Sandman, to leave discussions of Chan out of this forum.

He sidetracked this thread with a pointless attack. One that had nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

I'm just giving him a dose of reality. As obviously he has gotten a bit too comfortable in his fantasy land.

I sincerely apologize to everyone else for my off topic posts.

More Alan Moore suggestions,

From Hell
League of Extaordinary Gentlemen (1st Book only)
There's quite a few more, but they escape me at the moment...

Nick Forrer

04-29-2004, 10:00 AM

'From Hell
'League of Extaordinary Gentlemen (1st Book only)'

Read em. Watchmen is still the best IMHO. Not a fan of LXG 2? I quite liked it, gratuitous neck wound licking aside.

Phenix

04-29-2004, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by duende

Phoenix has been warned time and time again by Sandman, to leave discussions of Chan out of this forum.

He sidetracked this thread with a pointless attack. One that had nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

I'm just giving him a dose of reality. As obviously he has gotten a bit too comfortable in his fantasy land.

Hmm....., Wing Chun Traditon or Fantasy land?
hahahahaha,

Some certainly have never seen these below. and have no idea what exist in this world. so always pulling reverse gear. :D hahahaha

Here is a part of kept WCK kuen kuit of the LJ --> Yip Man --> ..... line.

µú¬K¤K¤â¡@¬Ò¥i§ð¦u
¼Ð°é¥ñ¸j¡@¸i¨í¯ÑÅu¡@¥i±q¤¤¯}¡@¸i¤â¾îÄd
¸j¦³¥¿¿ù¡@¿ù«D¯u¿ù¡@«öÀY¦z§À¡@«ö§À¦zÀY
¤¤¶¡¸j°_¡@¦³¼vµL§Î¡@ªZ±ýºë³q¡@°ß±q_W½m
¥ý¦¨«á¤Æ¡@¥ý¤Æ«á¦¨¡@¤M¤ÁÁö»ô¡@¾¥¦u¦¨³W
ÃÀ¯à¥©ÅÜ¡@±N§Î¸É¦ì¡@¦]½t¦U´N¡@®í³~¦PÂk
Áö¤ª©wªk¡@ÅÜ¤Æ¤H¬°¡@ÁI©vµ´¾Ç¡@¦®¦b_×¨_
¦×¨_¦¨¦ò¡@¥j¤µ´X¤H¡@µL¬°µL§Ú¡@µL¬ÉµL²×

Translation:

Wing Chun's eigth hand, Can be both offense or defence,
Biu, Huen, Fook, Bong,
Kuan Kuat KAng Tan,
Can be broken from center
Kuan Sau horizontal Laan
Bong has proper and fault
Fault is not real fault,
Push the head .....

Condition depends on situation, however, different paths get to the same place.

Even it is said to be a fix method, the change and transformation is depend on the operator. The ultimate of the Zen teaching, the mission is to cultivate oneself.

Attained enlightement with this same body (in one life span) is rare, how many person can reach that state through out the past and future?
Non action and Non me, NON boundary and Non end.

--------------------------------------------

We have very details technology bro. So wonderfull details so no mis interpretation. :D

duende

04-29-2004, 11:02 AM

Nick,

did you read "The Courtyard" yet??

Short read, quick Alan Moore fix! Just came out. I liked it.

Nick Forrer

04-29-2004, 03:11 PM

Alex,

No I havent. Dont know if its out here yet- havent seen it in bookstores but I might try a specialist comic book store- I used to go to them a lot when I was younger and was really into comics but I havent been to one for a while. Ahh, memories. :cool:

Joe Sacco's 'Palestine' is worth reading - good snapshot of life in occupied territories.

Im also a fan of Frank Miller- esp. Sin City- gotta love the Noir artwork

anerlich

04-29-2004, 04:05 PM

Come on... what's up with the unwarranted hostility??? There has been plenty of positive interaction between your own school and our's in the past.

Plenty of positive interaction? Plenty of the other too on this forum from what I remember.

My school left the WWCKFA in 1996. There has been NO interaction between Combat Centres Australia and Mengs of AZ, other than Benny and Alf del-Brocco collaborating on an article, during that time.

Between WWCKFA and HFY perhaps (and bully for both of you), but I'm sure if you asked GM Cheung he would not include us under his umbrella.

I object to the implication that versions of WC other than HFY and Chi Sim are somehow inferior, since, according to the people I mentioned and their cohorts (and ONLY to them), they do not come from Shaolin.

Also, regrettably perhaps, it is in my nature to call hypocrisy on someone acting high and mighty about someone "dissing" his lineage, when the high and mighty one's seniors dumped a truckload on every non HFY/CS lineage in existence in their book.

I'm no Hendrik fan, but that doesn't mean I have to put up with hypocritical pomposity from anyone else.

I hope that elucidates things for you.

Back to our regularly scheduled program:

"Australian immigration is not a place right? "

There's a number of big buildings in Canberra and several detention centres in Australia, surrounding islands and on Nauru that prove you 100% wrong, AGAIN.

"I heard phone bill is very in expansive in Australia."

Australian phone bills come on A4 stationery, so they may be more "expansive" than yours, if yours appear on 8.5 by 11 inch paper.

If you meant "inexpensive", then you are wrong (hardly surprising) - due to underpopulation, large distances and good old fashioned greed and incpmpetence in both government and the private sector, our phone services are pretty expensive in comparison.

Yeah, take your pseudo-schizo-Zen babblings elsewhere. At least stop them from polluting a TWC thread.

Savi

04-29-2004, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
Only some, like the authors of a recent book, seem to want to claim that we do not *all* have Shaolin roots. IMO it is they who show disrespect, to those they put in their fictional "Popular Wing Chun" basket. I am far from investing any of my time and energy into childish hang-ups like this one. This quote above is another attempt to paint my family (specifically targeting the authors of MKF) with an ill-painted brush.

For the record and further clarification for all, the phrase "Popular Wing Chun" from Mastering Kung Fu: Featuring Shaolin Wing Chun is only a phrase used by the authors which refers to all lineages originating from the period of the Red Boat Era. It is not intended to disrespect other lineages. The word "popular" is used within the context of Wing Chun's world-spread commercialization (hence popular), rather than the latter of degradation and disrespect - inferred by Anerlich.

In the MKF book it is used within the context of time periods. On page 28 of the book is a timeline of Wing Chun's genesis, outlined by the VTM. It primarily shows the origins and family trees of Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun from Shaolin to today. It is divided into several eras:

1. Shaolin and Secret Societies Era: 1640's
2. Red Opera Era (Anti-Ching and Opera Societies Era): 1700's
3. Revolutionary and Red Boat Era: 1800's
4. Anti Imperialism Era: 1900's
5. Public Awareness Era: current day

Feel free to get as bent out of shape Anerlich, but your interpretation of the book IS NOT objective in any way at all.

Take this information as you will, I've shared what I've had to share.

duende

04-29-2004, 06:26 PM

Anerlich,

Before you start using words like hypocrite. Take into consideration, that I speak only for myself.

You on the other hand have decided to take the position as spokes person for the WC YM family.

The only pomposity here is YOUR double standards.

Like I said before... PM me if you want to truly resolve these issues. I have no interest in arguing with you.

Phenix

04-29-2004, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

.

I'm no Hendrik fan, but that doesn't mean I have to put up with hypocritical pomposity from anyone else.

"Australian immigration is not a place right? "

There's a number of big buildings in Canberra and several detention centres in Australia, surrounding islands and on Nauru that prove you 100% wrong, AGAIN.

"I heard phone bill is very in expansive in Australia."

If you meant "inexpensive", then you are wrong (hardly surprising) - due to underpopulation, large distances and good old fashioned greed and incpmpetence in both government and the private sector, our phone services are pretty expensive in comparison.

Yeah, take your pseudo-schizo-Zen babblings elsewhere. At least stop them from polluting a TWC thread.

I am just another human who can make erro. I support different views and can take disagreement.

Hehehe, I heard from a few friends of mine that Australia is very difficult to get Permenant residential status now.

some friends of mine in Brissy told me calling international from Aus is cheaper then the USA.

HAHAHA, you dont like the WC Tradition.

anerlich

04-29-2004, 08:10 PM

I am just another human who can make erro.

The last word shows that to be the case, though this was obvious to any casual reader of your posts.

HAHAHA, you dont like the WC Tradition.

I don't like YOUR IDEA of the WC tradition, which is not the same thing.

You on the other hand have decided to take the position as spokes person for the WC YM family.

Rubbish. I said I didn't like the book and that I found Chango's getting his panties in a wad about what Hendrik said was rather hypocritical. I don't speak for anyone else.

What are my double standards? I've always said what I said about the book, and much the same thing about William Cheung's version of TWC, since the MKF authors seem intent in following the same track, ignoring the lessons of history. Where's my double standard?

It is not intended to disrespect other lineages. The word "popular" is used within the context of Wing Chun's world-spread commercialization (hence popular), rather than the latter of degradation and disrespect - inferred by Anerlich.

Other readers can decide what they make of it - I can tell you now my opinions are far from unique. Your attempted revisionism would not be necessary if the text itself did not do exactly what you try to claim it does not.

I'd be *implying* it in the context, BTW, not inferring it. I inferred it eariler when reading the text, though when it's shoved in your face like it was, not a lot of inferring is required.

PM me if you want to truly resolve these issues. I have no interest in arguing with you.

I've no interest in either arguing with you or PM'ing you, and if issues need to be resolved, that would require a statement of clarification from the organ grinders (Messrs Meng and Louwenhagen), rather than the monkeys (Savi and yourself).

paint my family (specifically targeting the authors of MKF) with an ill-painted brush.

That makes little syntactic sense.

Screw you guys, WC, HFY, the Shaolin Temple, Ch'an and Zen (did I leave anybody out?), I'm off to BJJ practice. :o

Gangsterfist

04-29-2004, 08:56 PM

anerlich-

Man sounds like you got a load off your chest bro. I hope you are not giving up on wing chun. I find your posts on this forum to be informative. I do not know much about your lineage other that what I have read. Reguardless I still consider you my brother.

Remember the Siu Lim Tao teaches us to keep little thought and not to dwell. It teaches us calmness. Calm the mind and let people do as they please. You know whats right and best for you. You know who you are. Just be yourself and let those who claim other things claim other things.

Best of luck and cheers,

GF

Phenix

04-29-2004, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

Screw you guys, WC, HFY, the Shaolin Temple, Ch'an and Zen (did I leave anybody out?), I'm off to BJJ practice. :o

BJJ is from Jujitsu and that has the ZEEENNNNNN blood too. You cant run away, no way out. hahahahaha :D

Phenix

04-29-2004, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Remember the Siu Lim Tao teaches us to keep little thought and not to dwell. It teaches us calmness. Calm the mind and let people do as they please............

Those are great wise words, but how is that can be implement?
if it cannot be implemented than they are just wise words isnt it? :D

So, how is those wise words being implement? what is the process?

hahaahhaa. See, I told you. hahhahaa
it is not that simple. One needs to keep digging from those dead ancestors' word until understand what the heck they are talking about. :D:D:D

Boy it is soooo fun to dig into the ancestors' words. the trick is if one doesnt show some respect and pay attention about those ancestor's writing one is not going to learn. :D

anerlich

04-29-2004, 09:31 PM

G-Fist,

I'm going to BJJ practice at my Sifu's academy. As well as teaching Hung Suen Wing Chun, we are also a Will/Machado BJJ Associate academy.

I will NEVER give up on Wing Chun.

BJJ is descended from Japanese Jujitsu, but the Brazilians have alrgely dispensed with the overtones of oriental religion and culture in its practise.

BTW, Hendrik, I respect the old texts and reread them occasionally. I would argue that it is in fact your occasionally peculiar and baroque interpretations of them, your claims that you have some sort of inside track on them, and your apparent need to inflict them at enormous and rambling length on your hapless fellow forum members, which is more disrespectful to WC ancestors.

And I'll never tire of taking the pi$$ out of anyone who claims some sort of inside track to the Shaolin Temple, enlightenment, or related matters.

I like arguing. I'm not getting worked up. NO, I'm NOT!!!

duende

04-29-2004, 09:41 PM

You know Anerlich,

I tried to reason with you. But I now see it's pointless. BTW, where the fukk do you think your school got the name Hung Suen Wing Chun??

Nice appropriation there...

Here's to monkeys ****ing off egotistical Aussies!

canglong

04-29-2004, 09:52 PM

duende,
Anyone that uses the term I as much as Andrew does is only concerned with one thing.

Redd

04-29-2004, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by canglong
duende,
Anyone that uses the term I as much as Andrew does is only concerned with one thing.

You could learn a thing or two from his example if you were not so smug.

Phenix

04-29-2004, 10:17 PM

BTW, Hendrik, I respect the old texts and reread them occasionally. ----

Great to know. I know you do.

your claims that you have some sort of inside track on them,----

I dont claim. I present what I know from my study. Some might think it makes sense some might not. That is ok.

anerlich

04-29-2004, 11:01 PM

Nice appropriation there...

Thanks, but we stole it out of the best (and most accurate and well researched) WC book ever written, "Complete Wing Chun", by Rene, Robert Chu and Y.Wu. Credit where due. In any case "Red Boat Wing Chun" is pretty generic and you guys never TM'ed it. Not much of a comeback really.

Here's to monkeys ****ing off egotistical Aussies!

The bar's been set pretty low, any self congratulation on your part would be misplaced. How does "egotistical" apply, unless its your "family's" jargon to describe anyone having a contrary opinion to the HFY group think?

Anyone that uses the term I as much as Andrew does is only concerned with one thing.

Right. Money. And this would effect any of us how?

Redd, thanks.

Chango

04-30-2004, 05:08 AM

Hello Hendrik,
Once again your disrespect only reflects on you. I'm simply asking you to reframe from it. As for your internet "Chan" correspondence course you should save for someone else. thanks but no thanks.

Anerlich,
Does someone need a hug? :D You should learn to let go. It has all been explained to you as clear as it gets. You should let go of your hang up with the MKF book's use of the word "popular". But I guess you have to be willing to have understanding to really understand.

[QUOTE]And I'll never tire of taking the pi$$ out of anyone who claims some sort of inside track to the Shaolin Temple, enlightenment, or related matters. I like arguing. I'm not getting worked up. NO, I'm NOT!!!
/QUOTE]

I think this says it all and defines the limitations of further conversation.

Good day sir:cool:

black and blue

04-30-2004, 05:37 AM

"In All Directions, There is One Family."

I guess some family members are treated well and others are simply insulted, eh?

The HFY group on this forum are real funny.

Redd

04-30-2004, 05:50 AM

Anerhlich might be your only honest messenger. Shoot the messenger is really dumb. You could hire some one to flatter you.

Phenix

04-30-2004, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by duende
You know Anerlich,

Here's to monkeys ****ing off egotistical Aussies!

Now, is this a proper words to post?
I hope you appology.

Phenix

04-30-2004, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Chango
Hello Hendrik,
As for your internet "Chan" correspondence course you should save for someone else. thanks but no thanks.

Chango,

Boy, isnt it cool that one doesnt have to pay to buy a book to understand what did Leong Jan said about Chan?

BTW , the Leong Jan process is a one step transcent to Chan process. similar to the Damo or Hui Neng. Not those chinese non chan scholar but pretend to be Chan type. :D

Since you are not doing Leong Jan's WCK, that is surely not for you. :D

reneritchie

04-30-2004, 07:38 AM

Why is it that you have "Use silence to subdue action" while the YM people have " When hand free thrust forward"? What do you see in the difference?

1) Many of the important rhymed couplets aren't unique to any branch of WCK, or even to MA. Many are drawn from Chinese classics, such as Art of War or 36 Strategies.

2) While some couplets might seem contradictory, different situations require different tactics, so what seems contradictory is actually complementary.

Lat Sao Jik Jong (Free Hand Straight Thrust) deals with filling space when it is given to you.

Yee Ching Jai Dong (Use Stillness Against Movement) deals with remaining stable when your opponent gives you their balance and/or momentum.

Both, however, are only part of their respective couplets (at least in Sum Nung WCK).

The former is prefaced by Loi Lao Hoi Soong (Come Keep Go Accompany), the latter by Yee Yat Toi Lo (Use Rest (while opponent) fatigues) (this is lifted from 36 Strategies verbatim).

It means that you shouldn't waste energy chasing after an overly active opponent who is just dancing around. Wait until they pose an actual threat of engagement, and when they do come in, since you are still (stable), and they are less stable (movement is inherently less stable) you will be able to manipulate their balance and/or momentum they give you. (This ties into another couplet: Dik Yat Yee Dong/Jong Sum Yim Hong (Enemy Moves/Center of Gravity Already Lost).

When they come in, you keep them in (keep control of their mass). If they try to disengage, you accompany the movement so you can add to or subtract from it, still in control. If they succeed in making space, you fill it (so you don't go back to neutral if you can help it).

Jim Roselando

04-30-2004, 07:45 AM

RR,

Superb Post!

duende

04-30-2004, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by anerlich

Thanks, but we stole it out of the best (and most accurate and well researched) WC book ever written, "Complete Wing Chun", by Rene, Robert Chu and Y.Wu. Credit where due. In any case "Red Boat Wing Chun" is pretty generic and you guys never TM'ed it. Not much of a comeback really.

Actually, the chapter on Hung Suen Wing Chun was written by John Murphy. Credit where credit is due??? The only reason Y.Mu is credited in the writing of the book is because he insisted on getting authorship for the chapter he contributed. In retrospect, something all the contributing authors should have done.

How are you egotistical?? How do you have double standards???

This whole argument came about because I felt you came down on Chango in an over-the-top manner. His first post to phoenix was actually pretty tame, and considerate.

You had to bring in your luggage and attack MKF. You then start throwing around words like hyprocrite, and pompous.

Dude, you are truly conflicted. You can rationalize it anyway you want, but your anger, your ego, and your fundamental stance on this entire matter has been nothing more than an outlet to satisfy a need required by your ego.

Screw you... your a joke. your anger's a joke. your entire motivation here is a joke.

reneritchie

04-30-2004, 09:34 AM

Those comments on Complete Wing Chun are all factually incorrect.

[Somehow the rest of this didn't post?:

John was liason and scribe for what proved to be a very involved procedure, as it was the sole chapter written (rather than simply having information contributed to) by another party.

Y. Wu was listed as an author for the same reason Robert and myself were, he helped write the book (took the information and put it into organized form), not merely the NanYang chapter. The only thing he insisted on was using the Mandarin version of his name, even though it bumped him down the order (Tuttle wanted us listed alphabetically).

Hopefully this clears up any misinformation floating out there]

Ultimatewingchun

04-30-2004, 09:39 AM

Anerlich:

Andrew...I totally sympathize with your posts on this thread.

But dude, you're giving yourself fits. This is the internet. Who knows who you're really talking to? You could be talking to (and referring to things written by) a bunch of people who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag...for all you know?

While at the same time being self-proclaimed experts on Wing Chun and Shaolin history...???!!!

Maybe some people are doing that ? - Along with the subtle (but not so invisible) inference that certain other lineages really aren't from Shaolin...really aren't any good? Really aren't "authentic"? etc.

Don't waste your time with this...because it's too easy for people who are either trolling or who fall into all the categories mentioned above...to just constantly come back at you with endless arguments and debating points.

You and I (as well as a number of others) know what the merits of TWC are (regardless of what name Rick Spain is using now to describe and label what he does)...

We know how good it is....and that it is CLEARLY authentic Wing Chun that traces it's roots back very far - and right into the Red Boat era and the Shaolin temple before that.

All you have to do is look at the system to know.

"Exactly" how it found it's way into William Cheung"s hands....through Yip Man?...through Leung Bik?...through Leung Jan?...

Will we ever really know?

But at this point - considering how good the system is....

Do we really care?

Leave the constant bickering to the bickerers...and continue being the fighter that you are. That's what counts in the end.

What you can do...not what you say/write/market.

PaulH

04-30-2004, 10:02 AM

Thanks for pointing out the connection of "Use rest when enemy fatigues" of "The 36 strategies" to "when enemy moves, balance lost", Rene! I did not see it before. My thinking is today fighters are more mobile and fast, they can move, hit and potshot you all day and you still have not a clue on what happens. It seems the couplet implies that you already know what will happen and thus bide your time in preparation for the coming anticipated attacks.

Regards,
PH

taltos

04-30-2004, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by reneritchie
different situations require different tactics, so what seems contradictory is actually complementary

Totally agree. That's why it's the underlying principles and concepts that are so important. The couplets/kuen kuit/whatever are EXAMPLES using specific instances that illustrate the principles and concepts.

Without the underlieing "engine," they seem to sontradict. In light of the "engine," they make perfect sense for their time and place.

-Levi

CarlDouglas108

04-30-2004, 10:18 AM

black and blue"In All Directions, There is One Family."

I guess some family members are treated well and others are simply insulted, eh?

The HFY group on this forum are real funny.

You can choose your friends but you can't choose your family!

reneritchie

04-30-2004, 10:28 AM

Paul - A lot of people see WCK as kickboxing, and basically kickbox with WCK-looking movements. For that approach, I'm not sure of the value, and maybe being really active is a benefit.

However, if you view WCK as WCK, than I think it makes a lot of sense. Don't react (dance around, etc.) until your opponent comes at you. When they do, take advantage of the movement to break their posture (good Judo guys and good wrestlers do this all the time), and then take advantage of the broken posture to do what you want.

A turn is only a barely controlled spin. A step is only a barely controlled fall. Once they get themselves moving (give you mememtum), all it takes is experience to make those movements achieve their extremes.

Taltos - Well said.

PaulH

04-30-2004, 10:50 AM

Good points, Rene! How do you deal with controlled spins and falls that are so small give you too little to take advantage of? I mention this because skilled fighters have these very well in their pockets. Thanks again.

PH

Zhuge Liang

04-30-2004, 11:13 AM

Hi Paul,

Originally posted by PaulH
Good points, Rene! How do you deal with controlled spins and falls that are so small give you too little to take advantage of? I mention this because skilled fighters have these very well in their pockets.

I suppose you'd have to be even more skilled than they are. But just because you're "waiting for the other guy to make a mistake" doesn't mean you're passive. Ken once made this analogy: the best tennis players don't wait for the other guy to make a mistake and then take advantage of it. They position themselves and their shots such that they force the other guy to make a mistake, then they take advantage of it.

This concept of "forced error" takes place in our line of training as well. Feinting, baiting, and otherwise disrupting/splitting the other guy's attention and/or posture, are ways to force an error. Even the term that Ernie likes to use, "eating your opponent's position", is a way to force error. The worse your position is, the more prone you are to make a mistake, and the better my chances (or Ernie's chances at least) of taking advantage of it.

Hope the pennies help,

Regards,
Alan

Phenix

04-30-2004, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Hi Paul,

This concept of "forced error" ......you are to make a mistake, and the better my chances (or Ernie's chances at least) of taking advantage of it.

Yup, that is true...

and one always has to keep one in the "center". otherwise, one will constantly spend time to balance oneself.

There are two major component for the "centering"

Structure: breathing/physical body centering

A, static structure define good structure with rooting.

B, Dynamic structure has two core components. it is like the abstract algebra. the two components are very flexflow type of stuffs. That is the 1, resultant structure and 2 resultant force, at every instant. this is a 2nd level attainment. it deal with momentum. here every details of force or structure components are identified clearly since one needs to flow and manage them.

Alertness: Breathing/consciousness centering

A, static relaxation such as in meditation

B, dynamic flex flow alertness

The dynamic flex flow alertness where it flows with the condition or situation without getting stuck but always alert. this is the one which link to Chan directly. As we heard in the Book Unfletter mind ... the L J's kuen kuit, or the Mas Oyama's article. --- the key engine for the 3rd level. it deal with energy. Here, those term like Nim, Yee, Shen, .... are identified clearly since one needs to use them.