The Art of War

[Jeff Brown]

I have read Sun Tsu's classic only once and must confess it is much more difficult to grasp than it looks.

With respect to Wing Chun, however (as this is a Wing Chun forum), I'd like to ask how might three main concepts be applied. Namely: "when the enemy attacks, retreat; when the enemy is uncertain, antagonize; when the enemy retreats, pursue."

Anyway I have my own thoughts on the subject but I'd like to hear yours.

[reneritchie]

Loi Lao Hoi Sung; Fung Lat Jik Jong (aka Lat Sao Jik Jong). Receive/Keep what comes, send off/accompany what goes, charges straight when free (free hands charge straight).

Rgds,

RR

[Sharky]

"when the enemy attacks, retreat"

that ain't in line with the wc way of thinking. you don't retreat.

now, don't be tellin me about when an attack comes, you "retreat your arm".

"You can't see it if you blind but we will always prevail (true)/Life is like the open sea, the truth is the wind in our sail/And in the end, our names is on the lips of dying men/If ever crushed in the earth, we always rise again/When the words of lying men sound lush like the sound of a violin/The truth is there, it's just the heart you gotta find it in" - Talib Kweli

[Jeff Brown]

my take on this particular issue is that in Wing Chun, "retreat" might be the same action as the cork on the water -- goes in only to bounce back. but perhaps I am stretching here.

[burnsypoo]

Sharky: Obviously the term "retreat" in here does not mean to give up and run away. It's a strategy. Lure him in. And whether it's retreating your arm, or swallowing his energy, it's all about the context with the word "retreat".

Is the art of war telling you to give up as soon as you get attacked? No. Then why be so literal with it's application in WC?

IMO: "Loi Lao Hoi Sung; Lat Sao Jik Jong" is saying the same thing, only making it less ambiguous. Optimized for the reader's understanding maybe (just incase they see an attack and want to turn their back cause the Art of War said so).

-BP-

[Roy D. Anthony]

I agree with you both. Meng Shuo and Burns, however both methods may be used.
Staying has advantages, moving has it's advantages depends on circumstances, and evaluation of opponents skill level upon contact. In a real fight, what matters is winning.

[Scott]

I think the problem is in the terminology. I've always heard it said...

"FOLLOW what comes, Chase what leaves, and rush in upon loss of contact."

If his arm was coming towards you, your arm would follow it in the direction towards you, thus moving backwards or "Retreating," though it isn't in reality retreating. It's sticking.

Many movements in Wing Chun DO Have backward momentum (Fuk.)

-Scott

"I'm just an actor, just like Robert f***ing Redford when I say those stupid words that they expect me to say."--Art Alexakis

[Jeff Brown]

Now, what about "antagonize?"

[Gluteus Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "when the enemy attacks, retreat; when the enemy is uncertain, antagonize; when the enemy retreats, pursue."
[/quote]

With respect to Wing Chun:

"When the enemy attacks, retreat" means don't meet force with force. It doesn't literally mean retreat, but rather stay in contact and deflect his force.

"When the enemy is uncertain, antagonize" means attack any opening he offers.

"When the enemy retreats, pursue" - the meaning is obvious.

Max

Yooby Yoody

[Jeff Brown]

I think these are two different things altogether, Max (thanks for the response, by the way).

I see it as "make your opponent do something stupid". break his concentration, cause him to try something rash or unskilled.

[Gluteus Maximus]

Hi Meng Shuo,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I see it as "make your opponent do something stupid". break his concentration, cause him to try something rash or unskilled.
[/quote]

The way I see it, if the opponent is uncertain, he's most likely tense and is already acting in a rash or unskilled way. I think in one respect, the maxim highlights the importance of certainty, ie confidence in one's own skills.

What does the word "ant agonize" mean anyway? I always thought it meant to sting like an ant, ie attack. :D

Max

Yooby Yoody

[Jeff Brown]

antagonize, British and Australian usually -ise verb [T]
If you antagonize someone, you cause them to feel opposition or dislike towards you.
It's a very delicate situation and I've no wish to antagonize him.
With the publication of this controversial book, you risk antagonizing a large section of the population.


( Cambridge International Dictionary of English )

-- if antagonize and attack mean the same thing, then there is no trapping/baiting, which i think is a fundamental part of battle, don't you agree Max?

Or are you trying to antagonize me? ;-)

[Gluteus Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> -- if antagonize and attack mean the same thing, then there is no trapping/baiting, which i think is a fundamental part of battle, don't you agree Max?
[/quote]

It depends on the strategy one chooses to adopt, which in turn depends on one's strength, one's skill and one's position at the time of attack. If the enemy falters (ie is uncertain), I believe it's often best to take the initiative and blast into them if one is in a good position to do so, rather than concentrate on trapping their hands. My focus in a fight is to demolish the opponent as quickly as possible, but that is a personal choice, suited to my large physique and my ferocious mindset. :D

Max

Yooby Yoody

[Jeff Brown]

Glad to see some evidence of wit and humour out here!

Being of more modest size (as you might have guessed by now), I must consider strategy more than brute force in the application of Wing Chun.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Remember that the Idioms, or Kuen Kuit are only guidelines.
Therefore I would like to know what order do you do these? ie. "Stay with what comes, follow what goes nothing in the way hit!"?

[Jeff Brown]

1. Stay with what comes
2. Hit
3. follow what goes

[burnsypoo]

Why have an order? That is a lot of assumptions IMO. It was my belief that wing chun simply takes things as they come. If the encounter is "on", and they are feeding you energy, you recieve it. If their energy is pulling away, you follow it.. etc.. In any case, you end it.

No preference, no bias, no time to decide, just do.

-BP-

[Jeff Brown]

Thanks BP but it was a very leading question i was posed, don't you think?

Of course, combat is not like a simple, "first i do this, then i do this." if it were, you really could learn wing chun from watching Master Yip Man's videos!

Anyway, i am not a relativist by nature, and being somewhat of a novice, i decided not to say, "it depends" and go out on a limb (anyway, i was asked "what would YOU do Meng Shuo?" not "what should EVERYONE do?")

I don't believe in picking fights; ergo of the 3 choices i wouldn't hit first; once threatened, i would strike back; then follow until my poor opponent was obliterated! ;-)

anyway, it just proves my point that baiting is a tactic, and apparently a Wing Chun one too as it thrives out here!

[jesper]

He never actually wrote, that you should always flee when the enemy attacked.
He states that if you are attacked by a stronger force then you should flee. But only until you get to a position where you can defend yourself, on terms most suited for you.
This applies very well with WT where you bend like a cane to the force and retal using the opponents own strength against him.

[Jeff Brown]

The reason I started asking about this book was simply this: it's a great book, filled with insight into strategies of fighting. Strategies imply intellect, rather than brute force. Strategies are behind the development of an advanced system of fighting like Wing Chun -- thought, planning, assessment of the enemy, trickery, deception, knowledge of terrain and so on can all be brought into the equation.

"No try, do -- or do not. There is no try." This is the Art of Yoda.

You can train your hands to be sensitive and your bong to be angled so perfectly in line with whatever anatomical part of your body you wish, but don't forget the brain is your best weapon.

Here's a Cheng Yu (idiom) people might want to consider: Tien1 Xia4 Wu2 Nan2 Shi4, Zhi3 Pa4 You3 Xin1 Ren2 (there's nothing to fear in this world except those who are determined).

[reneritchie]

I've not found "follow" as a translation, here's what I've managed to put together:

LOI (Lai, derivative of Lai, composed of Chi, a pictograph of a person taking a step towards- come, sounding like Lai, a pictograph of wheat) means "to come or arrive"

LAO (Liu, composed of You, opening a barred door- to stop, and Tian, a pictograph of a field with water channels) refers to "to remain, stay, detain, or delay"

HOI (Qu, composed of an altered form of a pictograph for person, and an ancient character) gives "to go or remove"

SOONG (Song, composed of Chuo, the merging of stepping and stopping- movement, and an ancient character for the gift given to slaves) holds "to
give, to escort, to accompany or to send off."

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

the reason I asked about the order, is because not everyone realizes that the order depends on what my opponent does or doesn't do.

Quote:
"What my opponent does determines how and where I'm going to hit him.
What he doesn't do, determines if I do something or nothing at all. "

[Jeff Brown]

Thanks for the gracious reply, but who in all honesty doesn't realize that what you do depends on what your opponent does, and vice versa? Frankly, I was a bit insulted by the attempt at deception. But I don't know you, other than by the quality of your other posts which I quite often like.

Anyway, I am beginning to regret inviting discussion of the Art of War as it really has generated nothing but "Sifu's got some one-liners I memorized that are WAY better" and "the character LAI (come) is a pictogram involving wheat" and other questionable value-adds. Think I will do some reading on my own instead.

Cheers and have a good weekend.

Meng Shuo

[Roy D. Anthony]

Sorry if you feel insulted, was not my intention. You were right was my meaning. Many people I meet in the Wing Chun world always take the order as it is written. I was glad to see that you have your own mind. No deception intended. Have a Good Weekend Meng Shuo!!!

[reneritchie]

Roy - Agreed on the sequencing, which can allow the same verse to have quite different meaning. A rather ingenious language. Goes back to Sun Zi's Yan Si Yee Gong (attack according to conditions).

Meng Shuo - Sorry you didn't like the elaboration, for me, putting it together, helped provide insight. I'd hoped others might also find it useful. I find Chinese characters often have layers of meaning. In English it can be tough to fully capture them. To keep what comes and to receive what comes can both be correct, but neither fully captures the other (what if you receive but do not keep?) Likewise with escort and send off. Escort sounds more passive to neutral, send off more active.

Wong Shun-Leung, I believe, once said you can't Bong Sao a motorcycle, which I took to mean there are limits to all things. Sun Zi seems to be saying likewise, that when in a disadvantageous position, we can adjust, even give ground quickly, and find a stronger position. Sounds similar to the overturning or body-saving. The next part sounds similar to the mun sao, where we extend and test, hit if we find nothing, change and test again if we find something. Then, when they're broken, we can finish.

Rgds,

RR

[Jeff Brown]

1. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious.
2. He who understands how to use both large and small forces will be be victorious.
3. He whose ranks are united in purpose will be victorious.
4. He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious.
5. He whose generals are able and not interfered with by the sovereign will be victorious.

-- Sun Tsu

[Jeff Brown]

Management of many is the same as management of a few -- it's a matter of organization.
Control over extraordinary and normal forces are key to sustaining an enemy's attack.
Troops thrown against the enemy as a grindstone against eggs is an example of a solid acting upon a void.
Generally, in battle, use the normal force to engage; use the extraordinary to win.
The musical notes are only five in number but their melodies are so numerous that one cannot hear them all.
In battle, there are only the normal and extraordinary forces, but their combinations are limitless; none can comprehend them all.
These two forces are mutually reproductive. Their interaction as endless as that of interlocked rings.
When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of its momentum.
When the strike of a halk breaks the body of its prety, it is because of timing.
Thus the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated.
Those skilled at making the enemy move do so by creating a situation to which he must conform; they entice him with something he is certain to take, and with lures of ostensible profit they await him in strength.

-- Sun Tsu

[joy chaudhuri]

"You start first, I arrive earlier" =
Proper position and path wins the day. :D

[Jeff Brown]

that is much shorter! :rolleyes:

[Turiyan]

Those that can be victorious, are offensive, those that can not be victorious, are defensive.

Research the difference in meanings of ch`i (unorthodox) and chi. There are some really bad translations that lead to problems.

If you understand the text, you'll realize that the deception (hiding... like "fook") and artifice is about waiting for an opportunity.

If you really understand the passage about war being about deception and artifice, you'll quickly understand that there is no such thing as an armchair general.

And few really understand the theorys at all, because of decorum of secrecy in military matters.
Words used to describe things often had hidden or double meanings.

Unorthodox basiclly means "wrong".

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan
"A Brahmin, coming into existence, is born as the highest on earth, the
lord of all created beings, for the protection of the treasury of the
(natural) law. Whatever exists in the world is (by right), the
property of the Brahmin; on account of the excellence of his origin
(primogeniture and eminence of birth) The Brahmin is, indeed, entitled
to it all" --C1V99-V100 The laws of manu