View Full Version : there is no groundfighting in wing chun

kungfu cowboy
03-29-2001, 09:58 PM
Hi! Wing Chun DOES NOT contain groundfighting! Sure, you can apply the principles there, but you could also apply dog-grooming principles there too! BJJ is NOT all that great either! There is no art that is 100% everything! Now everybody relax, and if I hear another word on any of these topics, I will...uh, I guess I won't do anything, but you get the idea! There, I HAVE set the record straight. There is no further need for argument. Enough. :D

03-29-2001, 10:27 PM
don't take this too seriously.. but i'll respond by quoting the movie.. Billy Madison

" Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

kungfu cowboy
03-29-2001, 10:59 PM
I LOVE that scene! Very funny dialogue!

03-29-2001, 11:02 PM

While I would say that "groundfighting" per se is not to be found within Wing Chun you are also correct in stating that many of the "concepts" or "principles" can be applied to situation wherein one finds themselves on the ground. So I wonder what it is that sets the application of these principles apart from "groundfighting".

On a personal note I was pinning my opponenets to the ground with my stance over ten yearts ago. Long before the advent of the NHB competitions. And guess what? I used Wing Chun to do it. :p You can see a good example of using the stance to lock the opponent in Leung Tings book Dynamic Wing Tsun. I forget which page but I could look it up if you would like. Of course for grappling I would choose another art to train in if I was anticipating being on the gorund alot. My goal if I end up on the ground is to get back on my feet as quickly as possible.



kungfu cowboy
03-29-2001, 11:13 PM
That is my point exactly. I am NOT arguing that the principles of wing chun won't work on the ground. But I am saying that its little more than coincidence. It is NOT a groundfighting art. No big deal to me. I just don't like it when people try to fill in what they see as a void with a warped view of an art.

When I say groundfighting, I'm not talking about throws. Heck, even my grandma had throws! I mean breakfalls, rolls, specific techniques for the ground etc> I am not a big fan of groundfighting! I find it irritating that people are affected by the so-called importance of jujitsu tactics, etc, that they feel that they must try to argue that "well, my art's got that too" thing! Well, now!

03-30-2001, 08:24 AM
What I was saying in the other thread about wing chun groundfighting was in reference to how I was able to use some of its concepts to aid in my ground-grappling (IE...chi sau) when I was in my BJJ class rolling.

Things ended up getting to a point where people were saying that wing chun had all these groundfighting concepts hidden within it and that it was just as much of a grappling art if you trained long enough in it. To this I do not agree at all. But like I said in that thread to each his own.

I feel that wing chun is a superior art to many, that is why I study it, I am new to BJJ, and feel that it is a very useful art as well. I initially tried it just to see what all the talk was about. When its all said and done, these arts have two totally different "means to the end", although they both focusing on controlling the opponent. But then what art doesnt?!

"From one thing know ten thousand things" - Miyomato Musashi, Book of five rings

03-30-2001, 05:28 PM
yeah, there's no groundfighting in wing chun and there's no stand-up in bjj either. :rolleyes:

cowboy, you need to recognize the difference between grappling and groundfighting. groundfighting is just that; groundfighting, not rolling around trying to secure a hold or lock (grappling). the constant barrage of straight punches, elbows and knees works equally as well standing or when "fighting on the ground".

having said that, wing chun does contain several effective grappling maneuvers. the kup jarn is a prime example of this, as is the double lan sau, too bad you haven't reached a level where you are aware of this. chin-na (grappling) is applied within all of the chinese fighting arts. wing chun is no exception.

you really should have an understanding of the topic you're discussing before making such inflamatory statements. your post is a clear reflection of your level of achievement and understanding.

03-30-2001, 05:37 PM
just remember.. every, and i mean every move in wing chun has 4 purposes... for example, let's take tan sau.. tan sau, can be used as an attack, a block, shin-na, or a take down. that's 4 uses.. and that applies to every move in wing chun, whether its tan, bong, or fok.

keeping that in mind, remember its really hard to grapple, when someone keeps punching your face.... you should try this some time.

old jong
03-30-2001, 05:45 PM
I like the way you put it Edward. ;)

C'est la vie!

old jong
03-30-2001, 05:49 PM
I know what you mean,but...Don't forget that you are a big and strong guy learning a very lethal and realistic style of kung fu....Bad ass material!!!
Salut friend. ;)

C'est la vie!

kungfu cowboy
03-30-2001, 09:17 PM
Hi everybody. First off, I would like to apologize for my seemingly disrespectful post. I had intended it as sort of tongue-in-cheek, but it came across pretty stupid nonetheless.

Anyway, what prompted it was my inability to understand the whole grappling vs. standup thing that's been going on, and the feeble attempts at trying to prove that mysteriously hidden within wing chun, if you really look hard enough, you will find whatever it is that you think really isn't there.

I have done jujitsu for 8 years, and there is just no way that wing chun has that depth of training in regards to ground skills. Also, there is no way that jujitsu has within it a standup system equal to wing chun. So what? What is the problem here? Every art is worthy of respect, and each art excels in its own speciality. To each their own.

Of course there are principles within wing chun that can be extended to situations other than its primary concern. Of course there is some grappling and chin-na. And of course arts that are primarily concerned with the ground have some skills necessary for standup situations. But neither is the master of both. So, if you feel that your art may be missing something, just go find it somewhere else. There is no reason to pretend that it is equal in every respect as every art ever practiced. I love wing chun, but I can accept it for itself, with its inherent "limitations". Again, I apologize.

mun hung
03-31-2001, 12:53 AM
I must agree with the cowboy! Although I love Wing Chun, and I do believe you can use some of it's principals on the ground - it is not made for the ground. IMHO in a fight the only person that should be hitting the ground is...the opponent. - mun hung's two cents

I may be bad...but I feel good!

Big Vern
03-31-2001, 10:05 PM
i feel that alot of people within the M.A. circuit have been rattled by the success of good groundwork skills. the way i see it is that wrestling has basically made a resurgence and so it should! wing chun has gone through many phases of popularity also.
we sometimes fail to remember that most grappling systems are sport based while WC is primarily a self defence system using counter offensive striking techniques to allow the defendant to escape personal attack.
WC is very popular with security folk who might also study restraint tehnique also, they would generally prefer the idea of fighting from the feet but could also want a grounding (ha!) in the basic methods of falling and rolling and quite likely reversals.
I think most competant MA's know the difference between war and sport and groundfighting is generally associated with the latter.
why not train WC on your feet and judo on the floor if you so wish.
good hunting.

06-15-2001, 09:54 PM
Principles are principles because they can be applied to many situations. Techniques cannot be applied to all situations. Chi sau is not a technique. It is a tool for you
to practice your Wing Chun principles with the hands. Chi gurk is a tool to practice principles with the legs. The bridge between the two is your body. If you
understand chi sau and chi gurk, and how to use your body, you can fight on the ground. Wing Chun principles are not just WC principles; they are martial art
principles. Train principles, not techniques

kungfu cowboy
06-15-2001, 10:25 PM
Not all principles work in all environments. And if what you are training in no way ressembles the situation in reality, you are not training for it. If you don't train on the ground with methods specific to that environment, you can't learn to fight on the ground.

06-16-2001, 12:56 AM
i dont know with whom you guys study but i have asked about grappling techniques in Ving Tsun and at my Kwoon after we get far enough into the system we do learn ground fighting, at least that is what my Sifu told me.


06-17-2001, 03:45 AM
Then take those principles to the ground. Become familiar with that environment. Find out for yourself.

The problem is that people think WC is for standing up only, so when a fight ends up on the ground, they need JIU JUTSU principles. Wing Chun has it all, maybe not your wing chun, but it exists. Do some research, and you'll see.

06-17-2001, 06:52 AM
Don't get the 2 words mixed up. You're talking about techniques, I'm talking about principles. The centreline exists on the ground as well...

06-17-2001, 08:20 PM
My school is like Ryan's - at more advanced levels we train groundfighting, or more specifically, how not to be taken down, and how to get back up if we do. We don't study 'grappling' in the sense of wrestling someone.

06-18-2001, 05:08 AM
You're talking about techniques. I'm talking about principles. Centreline & straght line exist on the ground too.

06-18-2001, 05:14 AM
Sorry about all the messages guys. I didn't realize that this thread went on to page 2. I was stuck on page 1, and could not understand why my postings weren't showing...

06-18-2001, 10:26 AM
Concepts are the key,we train to fight on the ground early on,it is considered in the first 5 student levels.

I guess that makes us "Non Traditional" or MMAs. :rolleyes:

Ben Gash
06-20-2001, 11:55 PM
If you do Wing Chun, and you end up on the ground,then surely you are doing Wing Chun groundfighting?

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

kungfu cowboy
06-21-2001, 12:49 AM
LOL! :D Take it easy guys! I think the problem may be that some schools just teach standup (maybe some have added groundwork later, or maybe part of earlier system, who knows, who cares) but it seems to be first and foremost, and in some cases almost exclusively to the point of definition a standup art. And what is wrong with that, in and of itself? (as long as the possibility is touched upon)

While I might agree that some of the principles could apply to the ground, I think the majority of them deal with the physics and subtle nuances of the upright position, and won't work or won't matter on the ground. Toe-to-toe is NOT guy-on-top-of-me-pinning-my-arms-and-pummeling-my-face)

I studied jujitsu for awhile,(not BJJ!)and while I can see a few parallel applications of principles, for the most part no.

But the most important question is: Is it really something to get in a hissy about? There are awesome exponents from almost every style, I am sure. What might not work for me may work for you.

I think wing chun is awesome; I just don't think its groundfighting. Big whip.

06-26-2001, 02:36 AM
It's easier to say that there isn't ground fighting, when you're not being taught it, than to say that there is, but you're not learning it.

kungfu cowboy
06-26-2001, 04:27 AM
Ok. I think I have it figured out. Some wing chun lineages do have groundfighting. Mine does not.

06-29-2001, 04:01 AM
Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen absolutely contains groundfighting since it's a Shaolin based art. Chin Na is one of it's major components which includes ground work. Being Buddhist in origin many groundfighting techniques are done from a seated or lotus posture. Many body movements and escapes are taught within the seated meditation techniques. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)