wing chun vs. muy thai

[Dragon Warrior]

wing chun is a very linear system, that likes to get in close and pumble the opponent. They like to trap and utilize straight punches combined with low leg front kicks.

muy thai is both a linear and circlular system. They have a long thrusting front kick, and wide powerfull roundhouse kicks. In close they like to clinch and throw knees and elbows.

Of course im being very general here, but im sure everyone knows what i am talking about. Anyway, i do not think there have been any nhb matches to compare the systems (even though they do not prove anything anyway ;) ). So what do you guys think. I personally believe that it is the fighter and not the style, but style is of course important. No rules, anything goes, both fighters are "masters" of their systems. Which style has the upper hand??

I have to give it to the muy thai stylist. Wing Chun seems a little limited imho. A muy thai fighter would probably be more well rounded, and better conditioned.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[taijiquan_student]

This kind of style vs. style argument has beaten to death this forum, and by so many people in real life. Do we really have to go through this again? It is interesting to think about sometimes, but it's completely unrealistic, pointless, and you know this thread will be run over by troll posts and flames pretty soon. I just don't think it will do any of us any good to go through it all again.

"Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[dooder]

will the muy thai guy be wearing gloves?

[JasBourne]

muay thai guys get to wear kinky shorts with funky lettering across the crotch and butt. By contrast, wing chun guys generally wear loose pants and tee-shirts. Clearly, muay thai is superior.

:D

http://martialartssupermarket.com/images/products/4430_oc.jpg

[Chang Style Novice]

Silk pyjamas are superior.

http://store6.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1653_29652750

I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Martial Joe]

He could take a mean dump in that position...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

[Xebsball]

But what if the Thai guy clothes are pink with yellow hearts on it?

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[old jong]

The perfect look for the modern martial art expert. Renaissance,the way to go!...Look good in the octogon.
http://www.halloweenmart.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/a_leonardo.jpg

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[straight blast]

Said it a dozen times before. If you wanna beat a Thai Boxer, train with the same level of realism and contact as he does. And don't fight him Thai rules. The best MA for fighting Thai rules is Muay Thai. Simple as. Or wait until he's forty with shins like jelly and a body wracked with arthritis and kick his cane away and smash him one.
With lots of laughs to my Muay Thai brothers,
Straight Blast :cool: :cool:

"Through strength, learn gentleness. Through gentleness, strength will prevail"

[LEGEND]

Dragon Warrior...well...I have seen wing chun vs. muy thai in san shou tourneys. From what I've seen wing chun guys get killed. But they are forced to wear the boxing gloves. So many of them say the gloves cause a lot of problems in terms of punching power when they chain punch and so forth. Also I can honestly say that many of them had bad expectations...they didn't do any conditioning( running etc... ) and were not use to the contact...and seem lost but to there credit they did use wing chun techs.

A

[Ralek]

That stance that the guy in the red silk is doing is similar to the one the tai chi insctructor did when i fought him.

the taijiquan instructor got KO'd.

I think any kind of BOXING is the best style. Whether it's western boxing/kickboxing/thai boxing/ san shou boxing. The style where you get in a ring and go full contact are the best. And also add grappling styles to that like BJJ/freestyle wrestling/sambo.

The styles where you do wierd stances and just throw techniques into the air all day will not develope fighting skill. Some of these kinds of schools will do some limited weak light sparring where they also never develope any fighting skill.

I am the Grand Ultimate Fist

[Jaguar Wong]

Straight Blast, the first part of your response was spot on. And would fit with pretty much any other style you plug into the equation. :) It wouldn't guarantee a victory, but at least you're not guaranteed to lose.

The second suggestion however...There are plenty of good Muay Thai coaches past their 40's that still kick harder than most of us do. If you train incorrectly (like most American's think Thais do), then of course you won't have much more than deadwood for shins, but if you train the traditional Thai methods for developing the shins (not kicking palm trees, or cement pillars), then you would be just as formidable, if not more so than most hard style Karateka (like Mas Oyama). True there's a quicker burnout rate in Muay Thai, but that's because the level of competition is so high, not because their legs disentigrate :)

The kick the cane out part was funny, though. uh... I mean That's just wrong and you know it! :p

Jaguar Wong

[fmann]

Word, Ralek. It's the intensity of the training and the mindset of the fighter that really matters. If you train Muay Thai all day without focus and without contact, you're going to get wrecked by a WC guy that trained for real fighting and has the bruises and abrasions to prove it.

Alot of martial arts schools don't focus that much on the fighting aspect until higher levels, which is why average students might get wrecked by a boxer/kickboxer/etc.. This is something that I think is bass-ackwards in today's world in terms of self-defense.

[HuangKaiVun]

Chen Xiaowang, the guy in the red silk outfit, put a grappler who attacked him from nowhere into the emergency room with a single elbow strike to the heart.

Afterwards, a new heart murmur was detected in the grappler. Chen said he wasn't trying to hit the guy that hard!


In the ring, I'd definitely go with Muay Thai.

In the street where throat tearing and testicle stealing are permitted, WC.

[Chang Style Novice]

Is Chen Xiaowang related to Chen Qing Zhou? If I can afford it, I'd like to attend the latter's two day seminar at the start of November, despite my lack of experience with Chen taiji.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Chang Style Novice]

Looking around for info on Chen Qing Zhou and Chen taijiquan, I found this quote, which I hope Ralek (and others who disparage CMA as mere forms training) find enlightening.

"For a long time some Taiji practitioners have believed that the ability to fight can be acquired through form practices and hand-pushing...and that's all it takes to make a good fighter. Master Chen ZhaoKui thought otherwise and taught otherwise, reality being a support for a more diverse and practical approach. The following is an excerpt from his manuscript which reinforces his views and also raises some of the mysterious shroud from the art known as Taijiquan. Translated by Liang Baiping.
Chen ZhaoKui was an 18th generation descendent of Chen family Taijiquan, son of the the famous 17th generation master Chen FaKe. His students included a number of the famous younger contemporary masters of the 19th generation such as Chen XiaoWang, Chen ZhengLei, Wang XiAn, and Zhu TianCai."

Training for Sparring

by Master Chen Zhaokui

Train Hard, but not to Death; Train Cleverly, but not to Cheat

Fighting outcome is largely determined by courage. However, courage alone doesn't work. Top quality sparring skills are indispensable. A brave fighter with first-rate skills is a tiger with wings.

In training, we are supposed to be coordinated and flexible in every single move of the forms. we must be very familiar with the moves. We should be able to discharge energy like an automatic weapon. A strike should take the shortest path. It must be fast, powerful, fierce, and accurate. It takes such qualities to handle a strong opponent. Training hard is the only way to acquire those qualities. Emphasis is placed on moving fast and slowly, striking like steel and maneuvering like water, closing and opening, being relaxed and fluid and bouncing and shuddering.

Emphasis on slow moves only leads to slow strikes which an opponent can counter easily. But emphasis on fast moves alone makes it difficult to feel the path of your energy and makes it easy to strike along a longer path than necessary. Being fast refers to the speed which is built up through familiarity of the energy path. It is a speed without loss of quality.

Emphasis on water-like maneuvering alone results in weak strikes that present no threat to an opponent. Striking like steel means the steel-like quality reflected in your bouncing and shuddering which comes from total relaxation, which are also a sign of the water-like motions.

The above examples show that it is necessary to acquire a quality that readily shifts from top speed to slow speed, transforms from hardness to softness, from heaviness to lightness, and vice versa. This quality should be at your disposal at will without any loss or restrictions.

This quality doesn't come easily. It comes from years of hard training. However, hard training means clever training, otherwise you will train yourself to death. The goal of training must be clearly defined. We must not be like Beijing opera stars who present a spear dance. Flashy displays like that are for show, but are useless in function.


Your Advantage Against Their Disadvantage

After a reasonable mastery of sparring techniques, you should specialize in one or two techniques, the exact ones will be defined by your build, stamina, reflexes, and other factors. For example, a tall person should put emphasis on Tsai (Cai), or plucking, and Lieh (lie), which means splitting or perhaps "intercept and shudder." His strikes should be like cutting open a mountain, which means they must be very heavy.

A short person should mainly practice shoulder, elbow, and leg techniques in order to attack the lower part of the opponent. He must be fast and agile. The energy of his strikes must be integrated, fluid, and elastic. He should use the strategy of Shan Zhan (avoiding the brunt). In Taiji classics there is a saying, "Avoiding the brunt renders useless a power that can pull up a mountain." This strategy is most applicable to short people.

For the powerful, emphasis should be on Tsai (Cai), Lieh (Lie), and Chou (Zhou). Strikes should be so powerful that the first strike eliminates all possible attacks.

For the agile, emphasis should be on fake moves. The opponent should be tricked in any way possible. Then the opponent should be hit with fast moves.

For those with slow reflexes, emphasis should be on defense, i.e., when the opponent strikes, the strikes should be blocked and then countered.


Remember only specialization in one or two techniques ensures overcoming the opponent's disadvantage with your advantage.

But specialization alone doesn't mean victory. You must learn how to use it. You should be good at hiding your specialization and taking the opponent by surprise. It's a good idea to send a wrong message to the opponent by exposing your weak points through fake moves and then taking advantage of the opponent's miscalculation.

For example, let's assume that you are good at leg techniques and fast in your footwork. Your opponent is shorter. First make it easy for your opponent to attack your lower part, which is most probably what he has in mind. But the instant he is in the trap, you can use a leg technique which momentarily makes it impossible for him to escape. The rule of thumb is that the genuine and fake moves should complement each other so the opponent has no way to tell which blow is genuine and which kick is a fake. Naturally, you yourself should know.


Attack at the Softest Point

In sparring, try to be observant and quickly detect the opponent's weak points. Only by doing so can we boost our confidence and come up with a good idea to use our advantage against his disadvantage (this is the same as "getting to know your opponent"). But if you fail to achieve this, you will get nervous, lose confidence and attack without a plan, exposing your own weak points, and eventually losing the fight. The key to detecting the opponent's weak points is to find them in his build, stamina, and reflex at the first few contacts. After this you can decide on the appropriate strategy.


Avoid Being Passive

In war, the priority is to wipe out the enemy, to preserve oneself is only secondary. Only by defeating the enemy can one effectively preserve himself. For example, your opponent is taller and moves fast. To make things worse, you are not as good as he is. Obviously, you are at a disadvantage. If you decide to handle the opponent by putting up a defense, you will give him more initiative, letting him take full advantage of his strong points. The outcome cannot be anything but certain defeat. So from the very beginning you should attack first without a warning and from all directions. Every strike should be fast and powerful, leaving him no chance to counterattack and making it impossible for him to use his advantages. Then you may possibly turn the situation around and win a victory from a very likely defeat.


Make Noise in the East; Attack in the West

To assure a victory in sparring you must lure the opponent, confuse him by sending a wrong message and take him by surprise. This is an important method of turning a disadvantage into an advantage.

It means a fake to make a noise in the East...the real strike is in the west. To make the trick work, you should hide the genuine attack within a fake one to make the opponent believe it is a real threat. If your fake attack doesn't look real, your genuine one will fail, also. For example if your left strike is a fake and the right one is real, then you should do everything possible to attract the opponent's attention with your left strike, taking away his right defense, then delivering a fast strike from the right.

In order to mislead successfully, we have to practice fake attacks for certain parts f the opponent's body, to practice all strikes so that they travel along the shortest path and along the smallest circles. We are not supposed to give a telltale sign with our facial expression. These signs will warn the opponent and may result in a surprise attack by the opponent. On the other hand, we can use the signs to confuse the opponent. For example, the first time your look at the left but strike from the right, then the second time you can look at the right of the opponent but strike from the right. The opponent, after tasting the first fake strike, will think the potential strike will come from the left this time. But he may get a punch from the right. This is what we call, "attack where there is no defense."


from www.neijia.com (http://www.neijia.com)

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Ralek]

So that guy KO'd a wrestler? Was the person really a wrestler or just some ordinary person who came up and grabbed him?

That stance is the exact same stance that the guy i fought used. Front knee bent the most with the back leg bent a little. It only got him KO'd.

All these kung fu guys have no idea how to fight. I'm going to KO as many as possible.

I am the Grand Ultimate Fist

[Ralek]

ttt

TKD the real street lethal!!!!

[kwokfist]

You can't compare wing chun to muay thai. That's like comparing apples to guavas. Wing Chun uses primarily hands and linear attacking, Muay thai uses primarily feet, knees, and elbows at a side drop-stance

[Ralek]

Kwokfist. They are both supposedly for fighting. Aren't they? They can be compared. Through the past several decades wing chun guys have been getting knocked out by thai boxers. Several decades of beotch slapping is enought to say muy thai is better.

TKD the real street lethal!!!!

[straight blast]

Yeah you're right. I'm just glad someone got a laugh out of it. Where I trained Muay Thai they're a bunch of cowboys, and serious injury was a common thing. Both my instructor's have bad shins to the point where one had to quit 'cos his shim was shattered so bad.
But these guys all tried to have "shins of steel" in a very short period of time. Didn't train smart, just hard. That's why I got out after a broken thumb, elbow, and permanent damage to my hip. But I've gotta admit, we were pretty hard, and we had a lot of fun.
Martial arts are awesome, you just gotta find the style that suits you!! :cool:

"Through strength, learn gentleness. Through gentleness, strength will prevail"

[kwokfist]

Actually I guess you're right, Ralek. Wing Chun is short-range and explosive, but Muay Thai is good at short-range and is explosive as well.

Muay Thai people are just generally more well-conditioned and can stand the short-range beating while Wing Chuners rely too much on their attacks that they believe "defeats Size".

Wing Chun, is more of a redirection, trap and simultaneous attack while Muay Thai is more of a power-against-power deal. It requires less training and more conditioning, while Wing Chun requires more training and less conditioning.

Now I am not saying that Wing Chuners are all weakling 90 lbs. Yip-Man look-alikes, I am just saying that usually smaller people are more attracted to Wing Chun while more muscular, bigger and taller people are attracted to Muay Thai. In fact, I do know a lot of bad-ass Wing Chuners, and some small Muay Thai fighters.

Its all about bad representation, Ralek. Don't you agree?

[fajinpower]

"Silk pyjamas are superior.
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama "

That was halarious:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

LOL.

Silk pyjamas - Silk Reeling... very good one.

[Chang Style Novice]

Glad you liked it, Peng. I think I'll go back to being just plain ol' Chang Style Novice now, though.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[adren@line]

theres a wing chun guy on UFC hits #1

he gets the sh*t kicked out of him and taps out in less than a minute.

I think the guy that beat him was a grappler. Initially when the match started he had this wierd hand position. His hands were coming from his waist in this old-fashioned boxing way or something.

no offense or anything.

sec

[Taijimantis]

I have seen combat applications of Taiji performed by an extremely proficient master on a number of occasions.
Never did I see him, and I mean NEVER, use any kind of stance. He just stood there with his hands at his side like he was waiting for the bus. After he tossed his attacker halfway back to China, he was still standing there like he was waiting for the bus.

I kind of like Raleks posts. They are silly.
Thanx Ralek :)

[Kristoffer]

lol at this tread :D

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Kumkuat]

Chen Qing Zhou is a very distant relative of Chen Xiao Wang. I forgot the whole story, but I think Chen Qing Zhou left Chen villiage to Wenxian (or someplace around there) before Chen Fake came back to the Chen Villiage to teach xinjia. That's why he's only a laojia person because he didn't learn xinjia.

The story of Chen Xiao Wang almost kiling the guy was when the guy gave a rear choke to Chen and Chen just elbowed him in the heart and nearly killed him.

[Kumkuat]

oops my bad. I got the entire story wrong about Chen Qing Zhou. http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/1570/cqzbio.html for his bio.