Martial arts and street ethics.

[Midnight]

An interesting question was posed to me one day.

"If you bore witness to a fight in the streets, something that appeared to get out of hand, would you step in and try to assist the person being beaten on?"

At the time, I really had no answer. I believe that alot of street fights have to be viewed at in different ways. Does it appear to be a mugging? or does the fight actually have reason behind it?
Is the fight continuing, even tho the person being beaten has obviously lost? is it a brutal beating?...etc.

My own questions began to flood into my mind. Would I truely move in to help using the abilities I was given? or should I simply look past the situation and let nature take its course.



No more than 2 days afterwards, I was presented with such a situation. While waiting on a major street for a bus to take me home after work, I notice a large group of kids looking between the ages of 16 to 20 running through traffic. It didn't really phase me at first, I assumed the kids werent watching the road and tried to cross regardless of the existance of rush hour traffic. Half the them made it all the way across the street and stood at the bus stop while the other half waited for traffic to stop. I then heard screaming, and as a bus began to pull up, of of the girls in the group attempted to push a guy's face into the oncoming bus. The guy managed to avoid the bus, I noticed he was craddling his arm as if in pain. He then jumped on the bus, tossed in some kind of fare and sat down. The group was demanding him get off the bus. The other half of the group got there, with this large thug like guy, who I can only assume to be the ring leader or this problem started banging on the side of the bus wanting him off. The bus drove off and everything ended with a few final threats.

I stood there watching this. Seeing a group of about 12-14 kids trying to take down one person didnt sit right with me.

To be honest, I was already "rolling up one sleave" until I noticed the guy got on the bus and got away.


My question to everyone is...

"If you bore witness to a fight in the streets, something that appeared to get out of hand, would you step in and try to assist the person being beaten on?"

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Midnight
"If you bore witness to a fight in the streets, something that appeared to get out of hand, would you step in and try to assist the person being beaten on?"

Do what you can, when you can.

I'm not getting killed because someone I don't know shot their mouth off, but I have certainly stepped in and said enough is enough when I though it was warranted.

[Suntzu]

HEeeeeeeeeeLL no...... you could be defending someone deserving of an a$$ whoopin....... plus a 12 man stomp out isn't the best feeling..... add to that a bat to the dome... a knife to the gut... or a bullet in the (pick a spot)..... i'd call 911 if i had a cell tho........ but i don't have one.....

[Midnight]

Perhaps I can add my own question to the mix then.

"If you were the one being beaten on in the street, and could see people around you watching. Would you not wish for help from someone?"

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by Midnight
Perhaps I can add my own question to the mix then.

"If you were the one being beaten on in the street, and could see people around you watching. Would you not wish for help from someone?" yes i would..... would i EXPECT help.... no i wouldn't....... would i do my best Carl Lewis impression just like homeboy in your story..... HEEEELLL YES.... do i put myself in situations where 12 teenagers wanna kick my a$$.... most of the time... not really....

[Midnight]

Good thoughts so far

Suntzu's extra Es in his "Hell yes's" gave me a good chuckle :)



Backbreaker:

That particular story has extra significance in the fact it was on a Canadian Holiday, where drinking happens by almost everyone you bump into. Police pressence is rampant on Canada day.

Most days however, at least in the streets of the 'Peg'. Police pressence is best found at the donut shops.

But I do understand your point as well.

[backbreaker]

Definately, the police were at the park so everyone was caught.

[Shen Zhou]

In my city very few fights happen one on one. I used to be in the streets alot so i have seen one guy jumped by 10 to 15 guys. Those from dallas know about the State Fair and The Mall during the last day of school, and pretty much when the temperture goes up so does the violence in The Metroplex . Here are a few occasions in which i would help out:

1. Man on women (yes)
2. Two men on one man (only if i saw the incident from the
beginning and the one guy did not deserve it) (Yes and No)
3. Older man being beating to the point where he gives up by
younger man. (Yes) I have a soft heart for elders and kids
and women
4. 6 to one (nope call the cops and tell them one the cops been
called )
5. Friends/Family of mine being jumped (yes Loyality means a
lot I would expect it from them. If they did not help me then
when i recovered they are in for it.)

Dont get the wrong idea about DFW. You just have to learn to read your enviorment just like everywhere else in the world.

Shen Zhou

[LEGEND]

SUN TZU being a fellow B MORE guy myself...I totally agree. I've seen many ass whipping and surprisingly have never been ganged up on. :)

[Suntzu]

what up fam...... well i have.... luckily by no more than 3....... and luckily i ran track at the time :D ..... but for than a few around here have died or worse from a group beatdown..... people that ain't even in on it jump in just because........

[Gangsterfist]

Last summer I saw a pretty vicious street fight right in front of my house. It was a warm day and I had just gotten off work. My roomate and his girlfriend were on our front porch drinking a few beers and listening to the ball game on the radio. I joined them and about 1 minute later we heard this yelling. Some people catty corner across the street were yelling and screaming at each other. The ended up being right in front of my house in the middle of the street. It was 4 Vs 1. They beat on him a bit and made him go home. So the guy getting beat on left and went home. We then saw him walking right back up our street this time with something in his hands. The 4 men were still pretty much right in my front yard on the curb of the street. They exchanged words and the guy pulled out a blade. One guy took off his shirt and started swinging it at the arm that was holding the blade. It looked like a straight razor, but I dare not get close to confirm it. The guy weilding the knife took one crazy over committed swing and missed the guy he was trying to slice. They rushed in, disarmed him and beat him to a bloddy pulp. They were smashing his head in on the concrete curb, punching his body all over the place, stomping on him, just really working him over.

The cops and an ambulance came. They guy who got the holy crap beat out of him got arrested for assault with a weapon. There was a huge pool of blood in the middle of my street.

I watched the whole thing happen and I did not get involved for these reasons.

1) No idea who those people were
2) NO idea what the fight was over
3) Multiple attackers
4) weapons

The cops came and took my statement about what I saw. The guy had a chance to go home and drop it, but he decided to come back with a knife. He got his @ss stomped for it. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Evaluate the situation.. if you think you can help, do it.. whether the loser deserves it or not isn't the issue.. it's unlikely we know the whole story.. but, no one deserves to be beaten beyond submission, laws and the legal system are the tools of justice, not anger and rage.. if it's a gang beatdown, say some kind words for the nearly or dearly departed, because in the blood-lust they will turn on the interferer with equal violence..

We are obligated to intervene and control obvious physical injustice when we can.. if we can help and don't, we are no better than the brute that is doing the beating.. worse, actually, at least he acts on his beliefs.. I've been a bouncer, i know very well the feeling of horror as others watch while i got stomped, but i will not become my fears.. if i can help i will, if i can't i will seek help from LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers)..

Gangs and bullies rely on the fear of onlookers to feed their deeds.. society will evolve or devolve to some degree dependent on the willingness of its members to take a stand.. at some point we must "stand and deliver", deliver our personal belief in a better way, a system of justice, or just common respect for life.. but, to do nothing is a vote for anarchy and street justice..

Well, i guess it's time to drop and roll, i feel the heat comin'.. Be well..

[Losttrak]

If my wife were with me, not a chance. Too risky.

If I were alone and felt this guys life was in serious danger, I would give warning that I "saw a police cruiser rolling nearby" (as if I were attempting to help the guys doing the beating). That usually makes most people break without even looking to verify. If that didnt work, (keep in mind that I am under the firm believe that his life is in danger) I make sure I dont have one of their friends anywhere behind me and "tell them to break it up" since at this point he is surely already bloody and fooked up. Try to plead assuage them that yes indeed, the guy has already sustained an arsewhompin and the job is done. If they wanna continue on me then I draw my pistol. If this show of force isnt adequate and they make a move, I go from low cover and aim for a few attackers legs. If the gunfire or the sight of their friends blood doesnt scare them then I am in deep **** since these guys are serious. At that point, by the letter of the law (Texas, at any rate) I will drop one person at a time until they retreat. If I run out of bullets then I draw the knife or pistol-whip. Prolly the knife since knives inspire an altogether "different" kind of fear. Anyways, I think the fundamental cowardice of the average gang banger wont allow things to get this far.


Bottom line is, I fookin hate gang bangers with a passion. Anyone without the common decency to beat the crap out of someone one-on-one is lower than dogshiyit. People pulled alot of this cr@p when I was younger and I don't have the stomach to watch it anymore.

[SevenStar]

Depends on the situation. I have stopped muggings before. I've also stopped a man from beating a woman.In the situation you described, all you are doing is begging to get stomped. You would be better off calling 911.

you had no background on that situation... that guy may have stolen something from them, or beat up some girl, so they were chasing him down.

[Chang Style Novice]

The closest I've come to this situation was a couple of years before I started MA.

I was walking to an art opening or something downtown with my friend John on a Saturday night. A crew of six or seven drunk frat types were shouting rude and suggestive stuff at a young "alternative" looking woman (black clothes, dyed hair, peircings, like that) as they followed her. I guessed that they'd been harassing her for a while since she was walking away from them quickly and keeping an eye on them, but not saying anything. John and I both removed our glasses and came between her and the guys. She gained some distance and they turned around and left. I was ready, but not prepared if you take my meaning, to throw down. Of course, in this instance nothing came of it.

Would I do it again? Hell yeah. How could I live with myself if I didn't?

[YinYangDagger]

best to call the po-leese and leave it alone,

unless it's man vs. woman, or an elderly person or even a kid...I've even accosted a woman beating her child because that REALLY pi$$es me off. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for corporal punishment, but slapping the kid in the face repeatedly is a bit uncalled for. I whispered in her ear if she hit the kid again I was going to bust her teeth out. She got the message, but I still feel sorry for that kid to this day, and it's been several years ago...

CSN - You're an honorable guy, kudos to you

[neit]

would you be happy if you were defending yourself and some do-gooder steps in and comes to your attacker's aid?

[Unmatchable]

Ive seen a robbery take place in mid day while I was drinking beer with my gangster friend, first a guy screamed Polive and got punched in the face (2 guys did this they robbed an old man and a old woman) and my friend just stood there watching and smiling while they ran right by us with purses. I kind of was mad but didn't feel like chasing them or fighting them. My friend afterwards said "you got to do what you got to do to mae it." We were walking by later and the old guy had a bloody nose.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Last summer I saw a pretty vicious street fight right in front of my house. It was a warm day and I had just gotten off work. My roomate and his girlfriend were on our front porch drinking a few beers and listening to the ball game on the radio. I joined them and about 1 minute later we heard this yelling. Some people catty corner across the street were yelling and screaming at each other. The ended up being right in front of my house in the middle of the street. It was 4 Vs 1. They beat on him a bit and made him go home. So the guy getting beat on left and went home. We then saw him walking right back up our street this time with something in his hands. The 4 men were still pretty much right in my front yard on the curb of the street. They exchanged words and the guy pulled out a blade. One guy took off his shirt and started swinging it at the arm that was holding the blade. It looked like a straight razor, but I dare not get close to confirm it. The guy weilding the knife took one crazy over committed swing and missed the guy he was trying to slice. They rushed in, disarmed him and beat him to a bloddy pulp. They were smashing his head in on the concrete curb, punching his body all over the place, stomping on him, just really working him over.

The cops and an ambulance came. They guy who got the holy crap beat out of him got arrested for assault with a weapon. There was a huge pool of blood in the middle of my street.

I watched the whole thing happen and I did not get involved for these reasons.

1) No idea who those people were
2) NO idea what the fight was over
3) Multiple attackers
4) weapons

The cops came and took my statement about what I saw. The guy had a chance to go home and drop it, but he decided to come back with a knife. He got his @ss stomped for it. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

Your a coward. And you call yourself gangstersfist.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by Losttrak
If my wife were with me, not a chance. Too risky.

If I were alone and felt this guys life was in serious danger, I would give warning that I "saw a police cruiser rolling nearby" (as if I were attempting to help the guys doing the beating). That usually makes most people break without even looking to verify. If that didnt work, (keep in mind that I am under the firm believe that his life is in danger) I make sure I dont have one of their friends anywhere behind me and "tell them to break it up" since at this point he is surely already bloody and fooked up. Try to plead assuage them that yes indeed, the guy has already sustained an arsewhompin and the job is done. If they wanna continue on me then I draw my pistol. If this show of force isnt adequate and they make a move, I go from low cover and aim for a few attackers legs. If the gunfire or the sight of their friends blood doesnt scare them then I am in deep **** since these guys are serious. At that point, by the letter of the law (Texas, at any rate) I will drop one person at a time until they retreat. If I run out of bullets then I draw the knife or pistol-whip. Prolly the knife since knives inspire an altogether "different" kind of fear. Anyways, I think the fundamental cowardice of the average gang banger wont allow things to get this far.


Bottom line is, I fookin hate gang bangers with a passion. Anyone without the common decency to beat the crap out of someone one-on-one is lower than dogshiyit. People pulled alot of this cr@p when I was younger and I don't have the stomach to watch it anymore.

dude you carry a gun on you everywhere you go? wtf.

[YinYangDagger]

sounds like a good plan to me...

[backbreaker]

I'd guess that every situation is different , and different attackers will not all be the same, I don't know, I am not a street fighting expert, who is? Who are the guys with hundreds of street fights supposedly? If you get blasted that'll **** you up, yeah

[Losttrak]

dude you carry a gun on you everywhere you go? wtf.


Everywhere I am allowed by law. I am what I consider the "modern" martial artist. I can use martial arts but I believe in being able to escalate as high as it needs to go. Would the old-school Chinese, who developed martial arts, view the gun any different than a sword, spear, or arrow? Its just another weapon to train. Plus, this isnt Kung Fu the mini-series and I am no monk. Life is unscripted and doesnt play by the rules. Plus, I love it when people joke, "Yeah I'll just shoot you." Of course, I typically choose to keep it a secret, its sorta funny to chuckle inside when they assume I wont/cant shoot back.

[Midnight]

This was a shock to me.....then I noticed you were from texas...

[Losttrak]

Yeehaww! If it means anything to ya, I was born in International Falls, Mn. I was ALMOST Canadian. lol :D

[Midnight]

LOL...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[dodger87]

curious question... have you guys ever fought in a fight before or came to someone's aid and fought of they're attackers?

[Losttrak]

I've stopped purse snatchings, broken up fights, I've submitted someone who tried to jump into a fight, once controlled a guy by wrapping my belt around his neck from behind. lol I've never had anyone help me though which ****es me off. Bastages... They always said, "Yeah I was just about to jump in..." Pfft.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Losttrak
They always said, "Yeah I was just about to jump in..." Pfft.

lol, kinda makes my opening to this post sound ghey now.....where I pretty much said the same dam thing. :P

Thanks Losttrak heh

Only thing is, I WOULD have stepped in....but in the time it took me to figure out those kids werent foolin around with that guy, to the time he jumped on the dam bus....I had just enough time to scratch my ass.

[Losttrak]

Hehe. In that case it was better to err on the side of caution. If you hadn't, he would have been on the bus and YOU would have been holding the bag, so to speak. There is no answer. Just follow your instincts. If your instincts get you killed, its fate I guess. What can ya do right?

[apoweyn]

I saw that very thing once in Annapolis. A bunch of frat boys were mouthing off to a lone skateboarder. The kid talked back. Things escalated. (I didn't see it from the start. But I have a difficult time imagining that the lone skateboarder rolled up to a group of about 15 frat boys and started talking sh*t.)

Next thing I know, one of the frat boys grabs the kid, slams him face down on the hood of a car, turns him over on his back, and grabs him by the neck. (Not choking him. But pinning him pretty effectively.)

I stepped in. Said enough was enough. Another frat boy steps up and pushes me. I froze. Sad but true... Actually not so sad. It gave a third frat boy time enough to come over and tell me the first two were undercover cops. Good thing I froze.

Why two undercover cops were required to arrest one teenage skateboarder remains a mystery. As does the need to flip the kid on his back after the cop already had him face down on the hood of the car. But I wasn't really in a position to pose that question.

The moral of the story: It'd be nice if the bad guys wore black hats and the good guys wore white hats. Because getting involved in a serious situation, you put a lot at stake. And sometimes doing that, without having the facts, can go drastically wrong. (Hell, if I'd been somewhere more hardcore than Annapolis, I might still have spent the night in jail.)


Stuart B.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


Your a coward. And you call yourself gangstersfist.

You know how many times I wish to be stabbed?


Zero...

Feel free to jump in on fights you have no idea what they are about with weapons involved. It was more than likely drug related. The street I used to live on was pretty shady, and I saw lots of drug deals go on all the time. Therefore, it wouldn't even be worth my time in the first place.

For all I know they could have had guns, but decided not to use them because it was broad day light and out in public with witnesses (ie my roomate and I). So they used knives instead.

You call me a coward, thats fine. I would say it was the intellegent thing to do. We just called the police cuz I did not want anyone dieing from a stab wound on my front lawn.

[Chang Style Novice]

Am I honorable for my actions a few years ago? Maybe. John and I were seriously outnumbered, totally unarmed, and utterly untrained in fighting. If it hadn't been for the fact that the assailants in this case were only emboldened by the fact that their target was alone and a woman, they probably never would've started anything at all. Our mere presence was enough to deter them. If it hadn't been, we would almost certainly have been completely ineffective and possibly gotten a trip to the hospital.

On the other hand, I really hate intolerance and bullying, and so I figure it's a fight worth fighting. When its a fight worth fighting, you gotta fight.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
Ive seen a robbery take place in mid day while I was drinking beer with my gangster friend, first a guy screamed Polive and got punched in the face (2 guys did this they robbed an old man and a old woman) and my friend just stood there watching and smiling while they ran right by us with purses. I kind of was mad but didn't feel like chasing them or fighting them. My friend afterwards said "you got to do what you got to do to mae it." We were walking by later and the old guy had a bloody nose.

:rolleyes:

but then you call gangsterfist a coward because of what he posted?

[MatT3T4]

I've been in this situation lots of times. Most of the time, it does not get physical, but it has happened a couple of times. I try not to fight if I don't have to. It looks like some of you guys think that is *****...I happen to think that it is admirable, and actually the goal of martial arts. :o

Anyway...the first time I intervened, I was 14 years old. My buddy Rob and I were in our Tae Kwon Do class. Now granted, at 14, I was 5'9", and about 170lbs. I was bigger than most adults at the time. Anyway, we were in class, and we saw some guy beating his girlfriend across the street. Now this is in Los Angeles (San Fernando Valley - Woodland Hills, to be exact). We told our instructor to go stop him, but he feared retribution against the dojo. So, like two dumb 14 year olds, we each grabbed a pair of nunchakus, and ran across the street.

We ran up in between them, swinging the nunchuks like idiots, and telling the guy to step back. We were so pumped, we probably would have killed the guy.

So what thanks do we get? The AT&T guy who was up on the phone pole next to us, yells at us and tells us to leave them alone...the guy who was beating the woman cusses at us...AND THE WOMAN WHO WAS BEING BEAT THE **** UP, YELLS AT US!!!!! I will never understand women...stupid ass *****. :rolleyes: So we left her to get her ass kicked some more.

The next time I remember, was when some big ass guy was about to fight a friend of mine at school. I think we were juniors. By this time, I had studied Tae Kwon Do, and Muay Thai. We were walking down the hall, and he threw an elbow to my buddy's chest. Now this guy is like my brother, and I'd do anything for him. So anyway, they both spun around and got in each others face. This guy was WAY bigger than my friend, bigger than me even, but I didn't care. So I dropped my backpack, walked around my friend, grabbed the guy by his collar, slammed him into the lockers hitting the back of his head, spun him around instantaneously, slammed his face into the locker, and lifted him up, sliding him up the locker. He sat there with his face buried in metal, talking about "let me go and I'll beat you down!!!" By this time, the whole hallway was cracking up, so I let him down, backed up, and got into my Thai fighting stance....and he grabbed his bag and walked away like a *****.

The next time was at a party. This one, all I wanted to do was stop the fight. It was a 5 on 12 fight. My buddies were the 5...but they are all pretty tough guys, and these others were frat boy pussies. Anyway, I came downstairs, and started grabbing people...my buddies, and the other guys, yelling to break it up. One frat boy sucker punched me right in the side of the head. When I turned around, he was right in my face. Too close to do much of anything, so I threw and elbow into his temple, and he fell on the ground and slept for a while. I broke up the fight after that. My girlfriend was there, so I didn't want to fight at all...just wanted to break it up, but I had no choice.

I have intervened with someone I don't know twice, though. One time was at a mall...and there was one small hispanic dude, and 7 white guys. Most likely white supremacists, but I didn't stick around to ask. They were punking him, and I felt bad, so I stopped and said that they'd have to get through me first. Probably not teh best thing to do, but I was feeling frisky. They didn't do anything, so it was cool.

The last time was at TGI Fridays. There were these DRUNK ass guys punking the security guards there. I was with a buddy who is a federal cop, and I asked him if he wanted to intervene. By that, I meant kick the crap out of these guys if they threw down. He did, of course. He then went to flash his badge to the security guys so they knew that he wasn't going to hit them...but one of the drunk guys saw it, and FREAKED out. You should have seen his face...he went from total hardass...to, "Oh ****, I'm going to jail" *****. That stopped it.

As much as I preach about staying calm and peaceful...I've gotten myself into a lot of fights, but I try not to. I'll NEVER start a fight. Ever. Even if you talk **** to me, and don't stop, I won't hit you because of it. I will only fight if someone hits me, or if someone touches me. Other than that, I'd rather just walk away, but sometimes you don't have that choice.

I have a lot of stories still, I used to be a bouncer at a club on Sunset Blvd., and there are tons from there, hehe

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by apoweyn
I saw that very thing once in Annapolis. A bunch of frat boys were mouthing off to a lone skateboarder. The kid talked back. Things escalated. (I didn't see it from the start. But I have a difficult time imagining that the lone skateboarder rolled up to a group of about 15 frat boys and started talking sh*t.)

Next thing I know, one of the frat boys grabs the kid, slams him face down on the hood of a car, turns him over on his back, and grabs him by the neck. (Not choking him. But pinning him pretty effectively.)

I stepped in. Said enough was enough. Another frat boy steps up and pushes me. I froze. Sad but true... Actually not so sad. It gave a third frat boy time enough to come over and tell me the first two were undercover cops. Good thing I froze.

Why two undercover cops were required to arrest one teenage skateboarder remains a mystery. As does the need to flip the kid on his back after the cop already had him face down on the hood of the car. But I wasn't really in a position to pose that question.

The moral of the story: It'd be nice if the bad guys wore black hats and the good guys wore white hats. Because getting involved in a serious situation, you put a lot at stake. And sometimes doing that, without having the facts, can go drastically wrong. (Hell, if I'd been somewhere more hardcore than Annapolis, I might still have spent the night in jail.)


Stuart B.

They probably lied and weren't cops at all.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


You know how many times I wish to be stabbed?


Zero...

Feel free to jump in on fights you have no idea what they are about with weapons involved. It was more than likely drug related. The street I used to live on was pretty shady, and I saw lots of drug deals go on all the time. Therefore, it wouldn't even be worth my time in the first place.

For all I know they could have had guns, but decided not to use them because it was broad day light and out in public with witnesses (ie my roomate and I). So they used knives instead.

You call me a coward, thats fine. I would say it was the intellegent thing to do. We just called the police cuz I did not want anyone dieing from a stab wound on my front lawn.

They almost killed the guy fro crying out loud and you didn't even say anything to try stopping it. As a martial artist you have the duty to help others.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by SevenStar


:rolleyes:

but then you call gangsterfist a coward because of what he posted?

I witnessed a robbery not a multiple person beating a guy to close death.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


They almost killed the guy fro crying out loud and you didn't even say anything to try stopping it. As a martial artist you have the duty to help others.

See, that is where you are wrong. I did save the guys life, I called the cops. An ambulance came.

I am not about to put my life in jepordy for something that may very well not be worth it. If I die, then who I am useful to then? My family can't rely on me for anything, my friends and work can't either. Even if I did step in, it would have been 4 of them with knives, versus me. I was unarmed.

Being a martial artist makes me well aware of my mortality. I have learned many techniques that are very brutal, and realize they can just as easily be applied to me. Stepping into that situation not only would have been dumb, it also could have ended my life as well. If you think you can take on 4 guys with knives then you are not only certifiable, you are also very ignorant to your own mortality.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
As a martial artist you have the duty to help others.
They must have forgotten to print that on my school membership card.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Surely, MA must stand for something more than just being a "badazz".. that being said, common-sense and a working mind are the best tools we have.. if you can't intervene and reasonably expect to change the outcome, get help.. do something.. doing nothing is contributory to violence you witness.. heck, just running to phone is better than rationalizing why you wouldn't want to break a fingernail..

If nothing else, turn your head in shame and out of respect for the life in danger.. just watching reeks of the perverse..

Greater men (and women) have voluntarily died for their beliefs without a forced choice.. they did what they believed was correct on behalf of all of humanity.. they stood and delivered.. MA can too..we can be role-models for a better society, or silent shadows frozen by indecision and fear..

Be well..

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


They probably lied and weren't cops at all.

With so acute an understanding of the criminal mind, you really should consider being a costumed crimefighter. Honestly.

[red5angel]

With so acute an understanding of the criminal mind, you really should consider being a costumed crimefighter.

I know I am.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

They must have forgotten to print that on my school membership card.

You got school membership cards?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


I witnessed a robbery not a multiple person beating a guy to close death.

so failing to stop an older man and WOMAN from being robbed makes you less of a coward? your fight woulda been two on 1, or two on two, had your friend helped you. That's alot better than the 10 or so on 1 that he was facing. That would make you more of a coward...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


They almost killed the guy fro crying out loud and you didn't even say anything to try stopping it. As a martial artist you have the duty to help others.

And you didn't help because...


Pot, meet kettle...

[red5angel]

there's a fine line between stupidity and bravery. I think part of being a martial artist is knowing when your outclassed.

I told this story a couple of years ago when it happend but I'll tell it again.
I was walking to work, and I walk through a park that is sort of known for muggings and all the rest. however, this was 7:30 am, the sun was up and it was fairly warm so there were people around. I was walking along listening to my head phones, there was a pause in the noise as three guys walked past me, all looked to be in their early 20's. I had just noticed a guy who had obviously fallen asleep on a bench down the walkway, and these three guys were sort of looking at him over their shoulders. One of them says something like "So you gonna do it or what?" Then the guy he is talking to hands his backpack over and turns just behind me and starts walking. I looked back and his buddies had stopped roughly where I passed them. I got a bad feeling, and assume their target was the guy sleeping.
I took my headphones off, I had about 30 seconds before I passed the guy on the bench. All three of the younger guys were taller then me, and two of them were heavier by atleast 30 lbs. I had to do something, my first thought was to look around for someone with a cell phone, but no luck, there were people in the park but not close enough. My second thought was to turn around and say something, but if this guy decided he wanted to fight, I wouldn't be able to take all three.
I decided to sit down on the bench next to the guy and pretend I need to get something out of my bag. I'd sit down hard enough to wake him up hopefully, and in case these three guys figure out what I was doing and decided to chase me, I'd have a head start.
Well, I sat down, looked up at the guy who was walking behind me, now a little ways behind me, he gave me the stink eye, and then turned and walked away. I woke the guy up, he had fallen asleep. He stopped and his freinds and he studied me for a moment but kept on going. I got lucky.
I knew I would have been in trouble if I had taken the issue head on and they would have pressed me. So I found another way to handle the situation.
In some cases, calling the cops is perfectly acceptable, and if the odds are even or there abouts, I dopn't have a problems with someone stepping in, I'd do it.

[Chang Style Novice]

Sounds a lot like my story, Red. Predators (in these cases) want the easiest of all possible targets, so if you provide even the slightest barrier to their fun, the situation is defused. I'm sure not counting on it always being like that, though.

[red5angel]

That was the crux. I knew that most of the time predators like this will not force the issue, but it's not a guarentee. I saw it as making the only decision I could at the time, but trying to in as safe a way as possible for me and the potential victim and weighing all the alternatives I could in the amount of time I was alloted.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by SevenStar


so failing to stop an older man and WOMAN from being robbed makes you less of a coward? your fight woulda been two on 1, or two on two, had your friend helped you. That's alot better than the 10 or so on 1 that he was facing. That would make you more of a coward...

By the time me and my friend noticed anything after screams of "Police" those guys were already running, hence no more beating/violence taking place. And an old guy was popped in the mouth once it's not like they were repeatedly beating on him. Unlike the other incident which seemed more violent and where weapons were involved, plus it was in front of his lawn.

[SevenStar]

So it's okay to hit a guy once and rob him? It's okay for you to let these guys get away with whatever they stole?

with the other incident, there was no indicator of who was right or wrong. you may have been helping a guilty man. Also, with those odds, you would've gotten stomped. Once that happens, you are no help to anyone, not even yourself. The best thing to do would be to lay low and call the cops.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by SevenStar
So it's okay to hit a guy once and rob him? It's okay for you to let these guys get away with whatever they stole?

with the other incident, there was no indicator of who was right or wrong. you may have been helping a guilty man. Also, with those odds, you would've gotten stomped. Once that happens, you are no help to anyone, not even yourself. The best thing to do would be to lay low and call the cops.

OMG, someone with reasonable logic on KFO forum? Say it ain't so. Thanks for seeing my side sevenstar, but it was actually only 4 of them not ten. However, one of the guys was about 6'6" so I guess he could count as 2 people.

4 big angry black men with at least 2 known knives beating on another man in front of my house.....

Hmm... You know I can take four guys with knvies, you are right unmatchable. WTF was I thinking? I mean I should have ran into them with a flying dragon kick. I mean that would put the first guy right out, then there would only be 3 left. Or maybe flanked them and hit them all at the same time with my flying dragon kick.

I don't know how you train, but if you seriously think you can rush in and take 4 grown men who are above average size, with 2 known bladed weapons, then you my friend are either on drugs or certifiable.

[Unmatchable]

I never said you should have rushed in but said something at least or try to difuse the situation if it was in front of your house. I mean since they smelled fear on you they probably felt afterward they could have done anything in front of your house and as long as they wished. And how did you know they had knives?

[Unmatchable]

Warriors walk alone, cowards run in packs! So your that if you had four cowards trying to jump one soldier you would bet on the four cowards. It's not all about numbers now day's, its the quality gangster's from each hood who make a difference.

[Chang Style Novice]

The words "deluded simpleton" barely scratch the surface...

[Chang Style Novice]

Thinking back on the differences between the stories related by Red and myself compared to Gangsterfist's, one thing that really stands out is the stage at which the incident was witnessed made a huge difference in our responses.

Red and I got there when the attack was in the verbal stage. His guys were plotting their move, my guys were shouting abuse. THERE WAS NOT YET A COMMITMENT TO VIOLENCE. Therefore, there was no need for a physical response to use of force to prevent escalation. In gangsterfist's account, he have an opportunity to act until weapons were out and sh!t was ready to jump off. Taking action at that time would have made a much greater risk than it was for me and Red.

I guess the moral here is pretty cliched - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
Warriors walk alone, cowards run in packs! So your that if you had four cowards trying to jump one soldier you would bet on the four cowards. It's not all about numbers now day's, its the quality gangster's from each hood who make a difference.

What would you know about it? Is that something your "thug friend" told you?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
I never said you should have rushed in but said something at least or try to difuse the situation if it was in front of your house. I mean since they smelled fear on you they probably felt afterward they could have done anything in front of your house and as long as they wished. And how did you know they had knives?

Okay, let's try this again...nah, fock it...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Thinking back on the differences between the stories related by Red and myself compared to Gangsterfist's, one thing that really stands out is the stage at which the incident was witnessed made a huge difference in our responses.

Red and I got there when the attack was in the verbal stage. His guys were plotting their move, my guys were shouting abuse. THERE WAS NOT YET A COMMITMENT TO VIOLENCE. Therefore, there was no need for a physical response to use of force to prevent escalation. In gangsterfist's account, he have an opportunity to act until weapons were out and sh!t was ready to jump off. Taking action at that time would have made a much greater risk than it was for me and Red.

I guess the moral here is pretty cliched - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Good point.

[norther practitioner]

THERE WAS NOT YET A COMMITMENT TO VIOLENCE.

That is the key right there...

[Gangsterfist]

If you read through my posts you will see that I stated I saw 2 bladed weapons. The guy who got his head split was hit a few times and sent on his way originally. Then like 5 minutes later he came back with a knife for revenge. I thought the fight was over, and he walked away the first time. The second time he came back with a knife, I called the cops.

[dodger87]

I've been in situations similar to this quite a couple of times during my lower school years in high school.

There was this one time in year 11 when we were confronted by this person in year 12, he was known around school as a "hardcore" because of his drug habbits. Well this guy was swearing at us and asking us why we kept giving his friend "evils" (its when you constantly stare at someone and dont lose eye contact, it usually means you want to start trouble with that person). Our friend he was referring to had no idea what was going on, he was an immigrant and had only been in Australia for a few years and eye problems and sometimes had to squint to see something. So the hardcore guy tells me to "talk it out" with him after school inside cricket nets. The idea of talking inside cricket nets sounded dodgy but i wanted to resolve the conflict without any voilence and the idea of talking seemed better than fighting.

So i meet the guy's friend inside the cricket net and it was just me and him talking. He was problably 20-25 cms taller than me and very built, when i say built i mean he had really big muscles, his arm width was at least 3 times that of mine. He then started yelling and swearing at me in Vietnamese and after 3 minutes of what was meant to be talking he dropped his bag and says to me "OK me and you 1 on 1" and puts up his fists. And he looked really serious and since we were locked inside cricket nets i had no where to run i dropped my bags and put my fists up as well. I knew i was going to lose this fight but i just didn't know how badly, he must've been at least 20 kgs heavier than me. So he rushes at me and i step back, and oddly he also steps back. This time he rushes again and since i'm scared as hell also step back but this time he lunges forwards and kicks me on the ass, causing me to kneel down on one leg but i quickly got back up on both feet. After a while of just standing still, he then tried to swing at me and i once again stepped back but this time i slipped and fell down and was kneeling on one leg (i was really starting to panic now) and then he tried to punch me again but somehow he hit my forearm instead of my head and he also slipped. We both then gotback up and he ran towards me and i get backstepping until i was caught by the cricket net there he hit me twice in the head and face. After that a teacher came and he started to step back and out of the cricket nets.

Most of the fights i see at school are really short and consist of punches thrown everywhere and barely any kicks. But this fight was different, i was too scared to even try and do anything to him and was just panicking and i dont know what he was waiting for, he obviously had the physical advantage.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
If you read through my posts you will see that I stated I saw 2 bladed weapons. The guy who got his head split was hit a few times and sent on his way originally. Then like 5 minutes later he came back with a knife for revenge. I thought the fight was over, and he walked away the first time. The second time he came back with a knife, I called the cops.

the guy who was the victim had a blade not the victimizers.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Unmatchable


the guy who was the victim had a blade not the victimizers.

Exactly, and that knife became their knife when they disarmed him. Plus one of them had a knife in their pocket, I could see it.

[Unmatchable]

you should have busted out your own blade.

[cerebus]

Also, if he left the fight then returned with a knife to continue fighting, at that point HE became the aggressor (at least from a legal point of view).

[cerebus]

Unmatchable, you must be insane (or suicidal) to think of that as an option in that situation.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by SevenStar


so failing to stop an older man and WOMAN from being robbed makes you less of a coward? your fight woulda been two on 1, or two on two, had your friend helped you. That's alot better than the 10 or so on 1 that he was facing. That would make you more of a coward...

Had my friend helped me those guys could have been beaten to death. Not long ago a guy with a bottle in his hand started mouthing off to my friend and my friend had to be pried off him from stomping a hole in him. My friend also grabbed a rock before he cracked another guy few times in the head during a fight.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by cerebus
Unmatchable, you must be insane (or suicidal) to think of that as an option in that situation.

Not in e sense of fighting them with a blade, but just showing it off to make your presense felt.

[cerebus]

If THAT didn't pizz them off & have them coming at you with THEIR knives (or just shooting you), I don't know what would.

[Unmatchable]

well you gotta rep your hood.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
well you gotta rep your hood.

*ahem* (http://www.wiggaz.com/)

[cerebus]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Word Homie! You go Vash! Hahahahaha!!! That's some funny Shyte!:p :p :p

[Unmatchable]

lol good one, but I ain't no wigga.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

VASH!! Now that's some good humor, disturbing (except for the booty call), but funny as heck.. Thanks, i'll pass that link around if you don't mind..

Be Well..

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cerebus
Unmatchable, you must be insane (or suicidal) to think of that as an option in that situation.

he's not insane, he's a trolling internet warrior who lives his life through the eyes of his wanna be hard friend. If you notice, he's always talking about his friends experiences, but none of his own. The only one of his he talked about, he sat back and did nothing.

[dodger87]

You know when you guys are about to fight in a street fight do you feel frozen sometimes? Its like adrenaline or something, that just comes naturally right? You can't do anything to stop it?

[YinYangDagger]

The only thing I can think of to stop the "freezing" you refer to is hard training - and I don't mean hard FORMS training. I mean by whatever "art" you practice should include some type of hard contact. Contact will help develop control of some of your emotions, and will give you greater confidence. If your art doesn't provide this, add a second art. Judo, boxing, muay thai, shuai chiao, MMA schools, etc.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by dodger87
You know when you guys are about to fight in a street fight do you feel frozen sometimes? Its like adrenaline or something, that just comes naturally right? You can't do anything to stop it?

Nope, not anymore. I have taken too many hits to the face in previous expereinces to freeze. The only time I freeze is when I think there might be multiple attackers or weapons involved.

[cerebus]

Get alot of experience if full contact sparring. Have a skilled coach to teach you what to do & how to do it, then train regulary. San Shou is good, so's kickboxing and MMA or even boxing if that's what's available. Don't neglect situational training for actual street assault (including weapon defense, multiple attackers and escaping from such situations). You'll still get the adrenalin rush but you won't freeze up in such a situation.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
The only thing I can think of to stop the "freezing" you refer to is hard training - and I don't mean hard FORMS training. I mean by whatever "art" you practice should include some type of hard contact. Contact will help develop control of some of your emotions, and will give you greater confidence. If your art doesn't provide this, add a second art. Judo, boxing, muay thai, shuai chiao, MMA schools, etc.

Than explain why some of the most violent people who don't freeze or hesitate never trained a day in their entire life.

[SevenStar]

Different mindset. Also, lack of training. When you have someone who wants to hurt you, and are determined to stop at nothing until they do so, you are dealing with a completely different animal. Some people are used to sudden violence and thus react accordingly. For those who aren't used to it, proper training will get them there.

Notice, I said lack of training. In some cases, training tends to pacify a person. You are taught only to use your art for defense, not to fight if you don't have to, etc. It's all good from a civilized and moral standpoint, however, it may put people at a disadvantage when in a hostile situation. You have to be able to instantly turn on the sudden violence switch, and not everybody can. They have inhibitions that some untrained people don't.

[cerebus]

Also the concept of "thinking about it". An untrained person will often "just react". A person with some (but not enough or not the right kind of) training might stop to think and freeze up. A person who has trained full contact sparring and realistic training scenarios 'til they're instinctive can rely on those instincts without conscious thought.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
Warriors walk alone, cowards run in packs! So your that if you had four cowards trying to jump one soldier you would bet on the four cowards. It's not all about numbers now day's, its the quality gangster's from each hood who make a difference.

Oh boy. In a single post, he summons forth the dread W word and his in-depth knowledge of life on the mean streets.

Keep going, Unmatchable. You're too legit to quit!

[YinYangDagger]

"Than explain why some of the most violent people who don't freeze or hesitate never trained a day in their entire life."

What 7* said, and: Those violent people probably have more "fighting" experience tham a room full of Black Belts. Street fights, muggings, prison experience, etc.

[Gangsterfist]

Almost every street encounter I have had did not last that long. There is usually a few exchanges of blows and then me getting away from the situation as fast as possible. I don't live in the worst area of the USA, but there have been shootings, muggings, murder, etc all within blocks of my home. I don't know how tough any of the people are, I don't know their training, and I don't know what weapons they have on them. That is why anytime I get into that situation, its usually like exchange a few blows, then get away. A lot of times its even simpler than that. Its just avoid the situation all together.

I am not a warrior. I am just a person trying to live. When I touch hands (or fight) with someone I am not familar with I never assume anything, and try to expect everything. For all I know they could be some dim mak master, or golden glove champ, or thug, or whatever. Their buddies could be just around the corner, and waiting to ambush us. That is why I do what I need to do to get out the situation, not beat the every living crap out of someone.