RBT = TMA, the full circle

[jungle-mania]

Reality based training (RBT) is the same as traditional martial arts (TMA) in many aspects, only that both were made in different era. A 100 years ago, people did not the internet or a well organised international vale tudo group AND they did not have traditional martial arts. What they had then was reality based training to them, that by today's standard is considered traditional martial arts.

Many of the MA founders also studied many arts before creating their own and giving it a name that would encapsulate the principle outlook of their creation, much like today's RBT. People would call their art according to thier surname or an animal that they follow. RBT insturctors will call their in many other similar ways, like FIST, BASH, STRIKE, etc. All acronyms of a longer name.

Similarity didn't just end there, there were funny quotations to each move in TMA like 'monkey steals the peach', which meant to duck down and grab the opponent's testicles with your hands. Modern RBT move along the same line, by getting people to remember certain key words like the art's name that represent things that they should keep in mind when fighting. E.G: P.I.S.S - position, integration, stability and stance (couldn't really think of a good one off-hand). So someone can remember the word **** easily and with practise apply it with gross motor skill. Much like 'monkey steals the peach', it is funny and perculiar way of phrasing, but people will remember it well and relate it easily to the technique.

The same basic fundamentals also reside in both RBT and TMA, 'don't kick high', 'guard your head', 'end the fight fast', 'learn to walk away from fights', etc, etc.

The big difference then and now is the approach, mainly because of social acceptance and the equipment they had. In those days, punching bags and crash mats were unknown and most people did not have exposure to martial arts, so repetitions of basic moves were ingrained into pratitioners, as it was effective enough to stop any altercation with a common person.

These days, there more modern equipements to protect people in their training and the general public are more exposed to different arts ofrom the media, making the need of martial arts to evolve faster than before. Some choose to maintain true to the purity of the art, hence some have evolve ahead of them and are term as RBT to counter the modern day adversary. Ironically, they also use gross motor skill to make their art work.

So why is it that the two styles are so different now, yet they share so many similar traits? In my opininon, it is just social acceptance and the way the world is changing. Parents still would rather have their kids do TMA to instill self-discipline and independence, than as a form of serious self-defense, not that it cannot, but most TMA place more emphasis in other areas like self-discpline as comapared to RBT. RBT came about, because alot of TMA have chosen to remain closely the same way they did when it first created. And like many RBT instructors came about with their way of fighting just like many TMA founders from learning different arts. What do you think?

[red5angel]

the issue comes when those reality fighters of the past start to solidify their arts, instead of allowing them to adapt. At some point someone realised you could make money teaching martial arts, or that you could get respect and adoration by being associatd with the martial arts, and so the arts began to suffer. Now you have too many people more willing to argue about lineage and the origin.

[Midnight]

Same argument can be made towards the people that think a MA school not taught by an asian teacher, is an automatic waste of time.

I know people that relate "traditional MA" to having a chinese teacher.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
the issue comes when those reality fighters of the past start to solidify their arts, instead of allowing them to adapt. At some point someone realised you could make money teaching martial arts, or that you could get respect and adoration by being associatd with the martial arts, and so the arts began to suffer. People have been getting adoration and money from fighting for centuries. It's not a recent fad.

[red5angel]

you are mostly correct in my opinion MK. Of course it has been going on for a long time but it started out as something else, and moved in that direction. The moment it started to move in the direction of selfish motivation, it became crap. Modern times, so more recently this phenomena has become much more prevelant. Especially with the rising popularity in the martial arts in the west.

TMA, sadly, is mostly just crap now. It's lost most of its heart and soul and its meat and has become more flower then power.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
you are mostly correct in my opinion MK. Of course it has been going on for a long time but it started out as something else, and moved in that direction. The moment it started to move in the direction of selfish motivation, it became crap. Modern times, so more recently this phenomena has become much more prevelant. Especially with the rising popularity in the martial arts in the west.

TMA, sadly, is mostly just crap now. It's lost most of its heart and soul and its meat and has become more flower then power. Roman gladiators got booty and cash from fighting. That's not the disconnect.

The disconnect is that we don't 'need' this stuff anymore to survive, so it's not necessary to develop the skill sets properly. Ring fighters are the only one's generally testing themselves on a regular basis, so they train for it. Most people train MA for fun or hobby; consequently, they train like it's for fun or hobby, and seek out teachers who teach that way. Who wants a hobby that breaks your toes on a consistent basis?

[red5angel]

sorry MK, I can't agree with you there. I think that may be part of the problem, all the hobbyists out there screwing things up, but in general that's not the major issue. What happens is one of those part timers get's it in his fat head that after studying martial arts for a few years, once or twice a week, and most likely inconsistantly, he can teach it effectively. Sure he looks good doing the forms, so when he opens his school he shows you all the forms, the nice picture on the wall of some old chinese guy and suddenly has some "credibility". So he starts teaching some more people, who are paying him sums of money for incomplete and half assed knowledge, and so on and so on.

[MasterKiller]

The problem that you present is someone who studied something for a hobby, yet has deluded themselves into thinking they did something else. Perhaps the student was to blame, or maybe the teacher told him he was deadly after 2 years. But that's not just a TMA problem. There are bad coaches across the board. But, if people are willing to pay for it, that's the stuff that gets propogated.

We teach 10 forms, plus a Tan Tui line. Takes about 2 years to learn them all. After that, you are supposed to start concentrating on fighting and using those techniques for fighting.

When most people get to that point, guess what happens? They don't want to fight, and spend their time learning weapons forms. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him strap on gloves and fight to drink it if he's got a fridge full of soda at home.

[red5angel]

right, and then those people go off and start teaching on their own, because the forms are enough in thier view. Of course more modern methods have similar problems, but the traditional styles have a tendancy to suck in the dreamer types. Modern training methods have a habit of weeding out those who aren't serious.
traditional methods of teaching used to be like that too, but then they figured out that if they soften things, cater to the hobbyist, they make more money ;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
right, and then those people go off and start teaching on their own, because the forms are enough in thier view. That's why we mark our forms. The people that only want the forms, etc. don't get the full sets.

[red5angel]

yes but instead of just limiting the information, things like this should be stopped. Otherwise TMA is going to continue to look like crap for the most part.

[Vash]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That's why we mark our forms. The people that only want the forms, etc. don't get the full sets.

As an aside, do you do the same for those who are unable to spar due to injury or the like, but are still interested in the martial applications of the sets?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Roman gladiators got booty and cash from fighting. That's not the disconnect.

The disconnect is that we don't 'need' this stuff anymore to survive, so it's not necessary to develop the skill sets properly. Ring fighters are the only one's generally testing themselves on a regular basis, so they train for it. Most people train MA for fun or hobby; consequently, they train like it's for fun or hobby, and seek out teachers who teach that way. Who wants a hobby that breaks your toes on a consistent basis?


Bingo.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
We teach 10 forms, plus a Tan Tui line. Takes about 2 years to learn them all. After that, you are supposed to start concentrating on fighting and using those techniques for fighting.



that sounds interesting... I like that approach.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
yes but instead of just limiting the information, things like this should be stopped. Otherwise TMA is going to continue to look like crap for the most part. Somebody has to pay the waterbill so I can have a place to train. Not everyone wants to be a fighter. That's OK. I don't have a problem with people studying for health or fun reasons as long as they know they won't be KO'ing Mike Tyson. I won't be KO'ing Tyson anytime soon, but I think I could probably take 7* if he was drunk, had conjunctivitis, was on cruches, and wasn't looking.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Vash
As an aside, do you do the same for those who are unable to spar due to injury or the like, but are still interested in the martial applications of the sets? Not usually. It's generally about the intent of the student.

My teacher usually modifies sets to accomodate injuries. If you have bad knees, it doesn't do you any good to practice something that requires a lot of low stances. But if the student is interested, we say "You do it this way because of your knees, but really, it's supposed to be like this..."

If we think someone who isn't physically capable of doing the sets themselves will pass it on correctly eventually, they get the unmarked sets.

[red5angel]

I'd rather train/teach in my backyard then sell out to teach crappy TMA, taht's why it has the rep it does. all the selling out.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
I'd rather train/teach in my backyard then sell out to teach crappy TMA I don't teach anything crappy. What the student does with what I teach is out of my control.

[red5angel]

should it be out of your control?

[MasterKiller]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him strap on gloves and fight to drink it if he's got a fridge full of soda at home.
I can make them drill and do things all day long, but I can't instill the intent or the heart to push themselves to be better.

Teaching is the responsibility of the teacher.

Learning is the responsibility of the student.

[red5angel]

yes but on has control over whether he sells out or not.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by red5angel
yes but instead of just limiting the information, things like this should be stopped. Otherwise TMA is going to continue to look like crap for the most part.

Do you think people should be turned away because you don't like their motivation for training?

[red5angel]

I believ that martial artists should be more discerning in who they teach and who they allow to teach if they want to maintain the integrity of their arts.