Just thought....

[bungle]

On why buddhist monks might of felt the need to develop a martial art. What better way would there to influence and get the respect of the warlords and generals of the country?

You develop a martial art that serves the greater good not only on a personal, self defense level, but through it you can attract and influence those who are interested in war and destruction. Teaching them your masterful forms of combat might influence them. The very temple surroundings with its calm atmosphere and peaceful monks would also temporarily calm them and help them see an alternative life to seeking war and conquest. Unbeknown to the generals that the same qi gong and forms used for combat are also burning up bad karma by flushing their energy systems with positive energy and flushing out the negatve.

Not only that. As Doshin of shorinji kempo found. The martial arts attract you young who do not want to sit and listen to boring religious doctrine. However, shorinji kempo is well entwined with Doshans own take on Zen.

I wonder how many folks have taken up martial arts and then looked into the more spiritual aspects as time progressed. I'd say a hell of a lot more than in any of other physical activity or sport.

I don't like to admit this but also. It is possible that the shaolin temple was merely corrupted and that chan was used much as it was in Japan by the samurai. Is there any evidence of this?

[Da_Moose]

Bungle,
Buddhist monks from Shaolin developed the martial arts as an outgrowth of their spiritual studies. They were seeking to destroy illusions in order to find the truth, and nothing is more real than the life and death scenarios provided by combat. Their martial studies eventually brought them to attain enlightenment.

As far as Chan corrupting the Temple or being abused, I do not know of any evidence to support this. Chan was one of the principle foundations within the Shaolin Temple. Chan and the martial arts went hand in hand, working together in harmony. It is through the Chan beliefs that the marital arts develped within the Temple. Hence, no spears, but poles, bleaded weapons were only sharpened in specific areas, such as the last three inches of the blade near its tip. Combat was not seen as fighting, but a restoration of harmony to a Monk. If someone entered their space with bad intent, a monk had every right to refuse that entry forcefully. he has as much right to exist as the next person.

I am not too familair with the Samurai and the integration of Zen, so I cannot fairly comment on their use of Chan (Zen).


Steve

[mantis108]

First and foremost, Shaolin temple wasn't open to Bodhidharma's Dyana transmission in the beginning. It is said that it took at least 9 years for Ch'an (Dyana) to be the "curriculum".

This goes to say that there are more than one "form" of Budhism.

Not all Budhism embrace absolute pacifism. Not all Budhism live in the monastery only. If that is that case, Bodhidharma wouldn't travel all the way to China in the first place. I believe that he brought in Budhist missionary model instead of just Ch'an Budhism. Ironically, we all know that Henan Shaolin temple has a tendence to "own" things. Ch'an, martial arts, land, Imperial decraction, special previliages, even the idea of trademark. *sigh*

When this Budhist missionary model moved out of the temple and to the south of China, we see the practice of religion, kung fu, and medicine all come under the roof of a kwoon. It is about a practice of spirituality, self-defense/fitness, and healing. That's the practice that brings about Arhatship (luohan), which according to some Budhist traditions, is not absolute Buddha hood or perfect enlightened being. Arhat is after all the worthy one who has high attainment that can be lost. Budha used the churning of the ocean parable to expounded the imperminant state of being a luohan. Bodhidharma would be considered as a Bodhisattva in Mahayana tradition. He wouldn't want to and needed not to be a Budha anyway. The important thing is to bring Vajra Prajna Paramita to all beings and non being. But then Chinese being Chinese, most of us took to it that Ch'an is from Shaolin. So we never really learn Bodhidharma's real lesson. Most of us just immitated it and thought we've got it. But the sad truth is we have never learnt and we buy and crave the Shaolin label.

Mantis108

[bungle]

Thanks. I can see how martial arts would be useful but it is the initial starting point. When they first decided to use their qi gong and combine it with martial arts. That has always been of interest to me. The inspiration, the influence that caused them to start the training. Maybe Generals who went there to retire simply taught a group of young monks so they could protect the temple. That makes sense...

[David Jamieson]

There is no singular reason, but there are some likely reasons as to why there were martial artists in temples.

Not just buddhist temples either and not just Shaolin.

At different periods throughout history, and especially after mahayana buddhism entered China, Buddhist temples found themselves being granted wealth and lands in not small amounts.

This was because the wealthy and everyday people wanted to acquire merit. To do this, they could help a temple, help the poor through giving to the temple or any number of other ways that was directly connected to the seat of the religious thinking...basically, the temple.

Very similar to the reasons that people put money into the collection plate in a christian church, or help the poor or whatever. Good deeds = god smiles upon you.

Anyway, the temples became wealthy on and off at points throughout their histories. The Shaolin temple was no different in this respect and in fact at several times it became extremely wealthy.

Being a pacifist doesn't equate to being an idiot about protecting your assets. Rejection of theft or offense is at the root of the development of Martial arts.

The monks would need to defend the temple from theives and bandits and warlords who would steal from them.

Because of the practices that the shaolin had, they attained some noteriety in their ability to defend themselves, so much so that they became legendary for their martial prowess.

So, the martial arts of shaolin and the monks who practiced it also saw it as a way of understanding it (the practice of martial arts). After all there is no teacher like experience and that is a strong lesson in Chan thought.

In buddhism, it is thought, how can you know light if you are not sure what dark is? It is through the exploration of both sides of the duality that we begin to understand that neither side exists. And this is also key in zen.

How can we know sweet, if we do not taste bitter?

and so, after about 1000 years of this type of thinking, well, you can see how the martial arts would get so highly developed. along with the fact that physical exercise and meditation were pretty much all the monks had to do to fill their time.

they certainly weren't the first temple or church to raise an army and they weren't the last. They just happened to raise an army that fit within cultural ideals and religious tenet which made them a little different than your average soldier. More along the lines of a holy knight or the "righteous scholar warrior" type figure.

real archetypes in many cultures.defenders of the faith, protectors of the weak, all that sort of righteous goodness that one would expect of a higher thinker who is master of mind and body in equal amounts.

cheers

[Banjos_dad]

A couple of thoughts...I know there would have been a strong secular power structure too, like at least a Governor or Emperor imposing law & taking tribute from the population. Even so, would Shaolin have expected aid from the secular authority, in the event of say, a group of bandits sacking the temple for food or whatever else of value?
Even if you can call on "help," you have to allow time for it to arrive. From what I can tell, Songshan's not the hub of a huge population center in modern times, although maybe it was at one point.
It seems sort of natural that they would see the need to have a defensive contingency.
Didn't the temple burn because of the then-Abbot's friendship with a political figure?
There are places on the North American continent (not naming names) that still have 'bandits.'

An hour or so north of here is a Sikh community. They are pretty insular but still strive to promote positive relations..But anyway, if I was part of a group like that I bet I'd feel better knowing a had good training in self defense. Just because of the way people are.
The thought of them arose when I was trying to imagine ancient Shaolin. I don't kno why.
I agree with KL's thoughts in his post above.

[bungle]

I understand why violence can be done by a buddhist monk. Especially one from the mayhayana tradition. As long as their actions are motivated by compassion for a greater good. They can ignore their vows if they are required to fight.

I understand the need for protection of the temple. It is fair enough and i suspect that the retired generals who went there had big influences to begin with.

The thing i don't get it this political business. They seemed to of gotten involved in politics. I guess they could move into an area and defend the innocent people. Maybe it took a lot of talking to get them to come round to the idea.

They are different from knights paladin or holy knights. These knights killed, like the romans, out of pride. They would subdue the enemy and make them listen to the truth. Like terrorists.

I feel shaolin should not be equated to the terroist way of thinking. They would not fight out of revenge, or for god, or to convert the local inhabitants. They wouldn't fight to save a political system or an emporer.

All their fighting would be out of compassion. So if there are lives of innocent people at stake that desperately need help then they intervene.

People sometimes say. Well they're only human, maybe they had to fight and wanted to protect thier country, they had political biasing.... I think people who say this underestimate buddhist practice.

Wasn't there a time when the abbott invited martial artists from around the country to come and teach the monks? The large painting in the monastary?

Thanks

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by bungle
I understand why violence can be done by a buddhist monk. Especially one from the mayhayana tradition. As long as their actions are motivated by compassion for a greater good. They can ignore their vows if they are required to fight.




I think to prceive it as part-time vow is to misunderstand



I understand the need for protection of the temple. It is fair enough and i suspect that the retired generals who went there had big influences to begin with.

The thing i don't get it this political business. They seemed to of gotten involved in politics. I guess they could move into an area and defend the innocent people. Maybe it took a lot of talking to get them to come round to the idea.

They are different from knights paladin or holy knights. These knights killed, like the romans, out of pride. They would subdue the enemy and make them listen to the truth. Like terrorists.

I feel shaolin should not be equated to the terroist way of thinking. They would not fight out of revenge, or for god, or to convert the local inhabitants. They wouldn't fight to save a political system or an emporer.


]actuallly....it is a well known part od shaolin history that they were employed by the Emporors for protection.......it was all about politics , especially near the end...or pre-cultural rev...but I think you're right ...and I think this is what ultimately saw the demise of old day shaolin resulting in some of the most horrific displays of humanity to date...despite their famous martial prowess



All their fighting would be out of compassion. So if there are lives of innocent people at stake that desperately need help then they intervene.

People sometimes say. Well they're only human, maybe they had to fight and wanted to protect thier country, they had political biasing.... I think people who say this underestimate buddhist practice.

Wasn't there a time when the abbott invited martial artists from around the country to come and teach the monks? The large painting in the monastary?

Thanks

[bungle]

actuallly....it is a well known part od shaolin history that they were employed by the Emporors for protection.......it was all about politics , especially near the end...or pre-cultural rev...but I think you're right ...and I think this is what ultimately saw the demise of old day shaolin resulting in some of the most horrific displays of humanity to date...despite their famous martial prowess

I'm not exactly sure what your saying here. Are you saying shaolin started became corrupted over time and more and more political in nature as its power increased?

Or are you saying that shaolins demise was due to their unwilingness to act politically?

How many instances do we have of them helping the emporer and could they also be instances where civilians are in danger and need protection?

I guess working as a body guard is no crime as long as those who you protect are not evil.

It seems shaolin almost became mercenary like. What evidence is there of this mercenary type behaviour? Could it be explained and validated from a buddhist perspective?

I'd say that if they became mercenaries, nationlistic or politically driven then this suggests deviation from buddhist teachings. Maybe that explains the lack of notice by other forms of zen.

[bungle]

Actually. That body guard thing is incorrect. It wouldn't matter who your were protecting. You would simply defend against the agressor i guess.

[mantis108]

I understand why violence can be done by a buddhist monk. Especially one from the mayhayana tradition. As long as their actions are motivated by compassion for a greater good. They can ignore their vows if they are required to fight.

Personally, I don't believe Ch'an is about "action motivated by compassion for a greater good". This would make Ch'an falls back onto the cause and effect or Karma category. My understanding is that Ch'an is not by nature about the teaching of Karma. Ch'an IMHO is the direct and intuitive mind that is at the same time the origin and result of the discipline namely Dhyana (meditation). There is a resolve beyond reasoning and emotions. You see this resolve in all the tales about Ch'an masters starting from Bodhidharma himself. He was said to have cut off his eye lids in order to stay awake in meditation. His first disciple cut off one arm in order to receive the dharma. This goes on and on in the Ch'an Buddhist tradition. It suggests to me that priest warrior mentality is totally possible given all the bloody tales. I don't believe that in a normal mindset causing bodily harm is justified in anyway, yet Ch'an teachings don't seem to bother with that at all. It could be that these tales are no more than tall tales or Koan if you will. But there are definitely a deeper meaning than simply rationalize and reason with them. One have to "meditate" them in order to under the unique resolve (priest warrior) of Ch'an. BTW, a Ch'an master would be conducting 3 battles, that of the body, mind, and spirit at the same time.


I understand the need for protection of the temple. It is fair enough and i suspect that the retired generals who went there had big influences to begin with.

The protection of the temple(s) and to a large extend self preservation of the monks has to do with cultural clashes as well. In India, receiving and even soliciting alms would not considered detestful but in China that's a taboo in which sometime the end result is senseless beating of the soliciting party. So there is a need for a commune (the sangha) and the place to house the sangha is the temple. They don't have to solicit alms having land to farm. Sangha or the monk communion was not always accepted due to the economic and social structure of China. They are not exactly "productive" members of society. They have to become useful in certain way. Being able to contribute in military campaigns is one of the ways that Shaolin was perceived as productive at least in the imperial courts' perspectives. It is also a smart diversification of services of the Buddhist sect in China.


The thing i don't get it this political business. They seemed to of gotten involved in politics. I guess they could move into an area and defend the innocent people. Maybe it took a lot of talking to get them to come round to the idea.

In the very beginning of the Shaolin temple, they have learnt the importance of having patrons of the imperial courts. In fact, the temple was built because of that. Besides the practical reasons mentioned above. It is also an important strategic lesson that the Buddhists have learnt from the Taoists. That is having the ears of the Emperor is crucial to the survival of the religion. This is since Yuan dynasty's time. They were almost wiped out if not for Fu Yue's effort in restoring the Buddhist order in China. At a time when democracy is unheard of, your only chance of having a voice or making a difference is to grab the ear of the law and order makers, namely the imperial courts. Inevitably this means getting involve in politics.


They are different from knights paladin or holy knights. These knights killed, like the romans, out of pride. They would subdue the enemy and make them listen to the truth. Like terrorists.

No comments


I feel shaolin should not be equated to the terroist way of thinking. They would not fight out of revenge, or for god, or to convert the local inhabitants. They wouldn't fight to save a political system or an emporer.

Shaolin is often credited with saving Tang Taizhong (first emperor of Tang dynasty), who gave about 600 years of culutral and economic growth to China. Chinese often pride ourselves as Tang Ren (people of Tang). If Shaolin monks didn't lend a hand to Li Shiwen, the whole Chinese history and to a certain degree Japen's history plus Buddhism history would have to be rewritten. Without a strong Tang dynasty the prospect of Ch'an would be glimsp and Zen would not have evolved. The samurais would have not the luxury of Zen's spiritual outlook. Without Zen, how would Bushido develop? It would be unthinkable what could have happened. It's almost the case of "It's a wonderful life".


All their fighting would be out of compassion. So if there are lives of innocent people at stake that desperately need help then they intervene.

That's an ideal in an ideal world. But life on this planet is not really like that. Just an opinion. :)


People sometimes say. Well they're only human, maybe they had to fight and wanted to protect thier country, they had political biasing.... I think people who say this underestimate buddhist practice.

There are certainly misunderstanding everywhere. This is not just Buddhism. Anyother discipline religious or otherwise is the same way. That's why we have Ch'an.


Wasn't there a time when the abbott invited martial artists from around the country to come and teach the monks? The large painting in the monastary?

I think the "legend" began at arround Yuan dynasty. Then it turns into a myth of 18 styles' masters, including Taizu Changquan, were taught in Henan Shaolin temple. This is arround late Qing dynasty (mid 1800s) I believe. The "burning" of the Henan Shaolin would be more recent which is about 1920s or1930s by one of the warlords. Of course Fujian Shaolin or Southern Shaolin is yet another great "myth" of CMA that is again a Qing dynasty thing IMHO.

Anyway, There are lots of research out there nowadays. I am sure that you will find them helpful in whatever that you are searching for. It is the journey that matter IMHO. So enjoy what you have already.

Mantis108

[bungle]

Thanks for the reply Mantis. I can see your points. I think i have the crux of the problem though. When we are trying to work understand why monks did the things they did we are looking at it from our point of view. Our conciousness.

Their conciousness is very different. Things look, seem and are different for them. The only way we can understand is to take on their way of viewing things and we need historical facts to give us a concrete setting in which to do that.

I disagree with your first comment.

Personally, I don't believe Ch'an is about "action motivated by compassion for a greater good". This would make Ch'an falls back onto the cause and effect or Karma category

The goal of zen is to reveal the practioners buddha nature by mindfully releasing all his thoughts. Getting as close to an enlightened person as possible so that he can hopefully realise the truth.

The buddha nature is said to be compassonate. Therefore spontaneous and intuitive actions of advanced Chan monks are motivated out of compassion. Compassion for needless suffering.

It is true that while a master might say and do harsh things to a student in order to wake him up, they would not stand idly as REAL harm is being done to another.

I'm sure the arm severing was to shatter his illusions. Those monks who came to masters seeking enlightenment get whatever they are given.

Innocent folks on the other hand may need to be protected from violent acts. The violent acts of masters are to wake up their students and they know the students will benefit in the long term for this. The violent acts of lay men are derived from emotions and are not productive or compassionate.

I'm sure the helping of the emporer is more complex than it seems as i'm sure any political approval seeking is. I imagine that these things could even be moves directly from the intuitive buddha mind doing what is best for the temple rather than motivation from the emotional mind which seeks approval, control or saftey.

[blooming lotus]

bungle.....

I saw this an wrote like a half hour reply, but I lost server right as I was subitting...have some comments here I'd like to share...doing my ch'an doctral and all.

but I'll have to do it tommorow ...

cheers

[Shaolinlueb]

dude, have you ever been to ancient china?...... well neither have I. lol um people answered this already. bandits and animal attacks, improve the body for meditation.

[bungle]

If by "people answered this already" you mean they said "bandits and animal attacks, improve the body for meditation" that doesn't wash with me.

I'm not gonna accept this at face value. The above quote might apply to a bunch of english explorers in the new world, "bandits and animal attacks" but if you assume buddhist monks are the same as 99% of other people then you'd be mistaken.

The main reason i have so much interest in this is direct, first hand experience of transformation and so i realise how powerful it is and how everyday theories and problems do not apply to them.

As Jung said, is it the events in the world that cause me to be upset or my reaction to them? The monks new very well the answer to this. So for them to begin to develop martial arts then there should be some good reasons for it and i havn't heard anything that convinces me.

On the other hand, i'm just doing this cos i get bored at work so i ain't too fussed. How do you know i havn't been to ancient china. Maybe i have!!!

[blooming lotus]

to me all of my excercise andespecially my gongfu is moving meditation.......I feelmoreable to cope with daily annoyances when I both meditate and train...to be vigilant in my workouts, especially when coupled with meditation, makes me feel more...........at peace......

I feel I am doing my spirit a service to look after the vehile it travels this life-time in , so for me as long as I know I'm using right will, right thought , right action and right medtitation, it doesn't eally matter what happens in the world around me...I retain my peace

tootired to answer on the polictical mercenary relevance but will hopefully get round to it soon

cheers

[bungle]

Yeah I'm interested in the polotics especially. I can well believe that kung fu is beneficial it is just the initial motivation that interested me. They can't of known it would be beneficial until they did it?

I guess they may of been guided by bodhisatvas or gods or higher beings....

Actually, on another forum i did come up with one good reason. If you goto buddhanet.net and look at the timeline it is obvious that buddhism has been pretty much ****ed on by various authorities. Including China. It could be seen that the monks knew that preserving Chan buddhism be far more important than any personal issues. Thus kung fu must be developed to protect the religion from extinction. A neccesary evil and yet one that can be used to maximise its potential for good. For me, this idea resonates. Protecting the Chan buddhist religion. Not the monastary and not the monks themselves but preserving the religion. That clicks. What do you think?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by bungle
[B]Yeah I'm interested in the polotics especially. I can well believe that kung fu is beneficial it is just the initial motivation that interested me. They can't of known it would be beneficial until they did it?
] spot on....you try sitting in cavefor 9yrsandsee what movementsyour body will want to make...... at a time later, as hadalways been provinces were at war and te best system of defence retained control...and monks were on hire by request of emporors and royal guard to stand as their bodyguards...eventually times progressed and asthe end of the dynasty leagcy came about, gongfu, being a threat to national security, became outlawed....monks and civilians were killed and sujected to somwe of the most atrocious displays of humanity ever witnesses in our history...there was nomercy and fighting was vicious...I believe that becaues of their ethical stance there was not as great resistyance from shaolin, of those still living preferring to seek seclusion, in lieu of torturous "punishment" for crimes against "progression"(possibly accoutning for renegade and mercenary stories following...please also see the "boxer rebellion" of early 1900, where similar events and secluded groups of practitioners tookto underground means of preservation of "old China" IE: self-sufficient, indepedant and traditional non-western influenced life. At this time of the 1049 war, to and beyond the '69 "great revoloution" or cultural revoloution..international trade was opening up and relations with the west were paramount....gongfu was a threat to these influences because of their views on traditional preservation, and aside from government structured wushu ( which also evntually became a criminal act to practice)...the only gongfu had either left the coutry narrowly wih it's life or gone underground. Gongfu was developed as a means first by confucius, who died out and coinciding with birth of Daoism...which progressed by vitue of facets of each, to buddhism and then to ch'an, as a means ofbrining peace to warring provinces....confucius beleived that if everyone would practice gongfu, as he did also, that war would subside, taoisms belief was more in ways of nature and to not fight or practice fighting skills as it promoted means for destruction, yet still has fighting arts???.....gongfu forms were originally developed yes, to protect the unarmed general popualtion against mounted attacks from royal guards...so you can see here that it was originally designed for fighting opponents at higher ground...hence aerials and high kicks etc......these not being sopracticle for real ground and standing same level fighting...



I guess they may of been guided by bodhisatvas or gods or higher beings....

a bodhisvatta is a human now walking path to become like boddha or as said in buddhism, the "eternal buddha nature"...



Actually, on another forum i did come up with one good reason. If you goto buddhanet.net and look at the timeline it is obvious that buddhism has been pretty much ****ed on by various authorities. Including China. It could be seen that the monks knew that preserving Chan buddhism be far more important than any personal issues. Thus kung fu must be developed to protect the religion from extinction. A neccesary evil and yet one that can be used to maximise its potential for good. For me, this idea resonates. Protecting the Chan buddhist religion. Not the monastary and not the monks themselves but preserving the religion. That clicks. What do you think? [/B

you are correct. and the abbot of shaolin today seeks protection for shaolin as a world heritage licving monument under unesco, so they may come back to their rightful place safely within the world to spread dharma and bring chan, gongfu and community to the world

[bungle]

My understanding of bodhisattva is someone who renounces their buddhahood until all sentient beings are freed and that bodhisatvas may reside in any place of existance. Thus you may call for them to help you out if you truly want it. I think this is more pure land buddhism. Mayhayana is big on bodhisattvas but theravada don't acknowledge them.

That is interesting stuff about confuscius. When was confuscianism first created and when did chan buddhism first come to China? It would make sense that monks might bring in confuscian values into their practice since buddhism has always taken aspects of local relgions while retaining its core foundations. The idea that by practing and understanding violence you conquer it is a great idea. Similar to that of witnessing your emotions and being mindful!


I understood that Bodhidharma brought with him energy cultivation methods of his own clan. He came to China and was refused approval to spread his mayhayana teachings. Also, i understood that when he came to China he wasn't enlightened just very realised and spirtualy advanced. Seeing his rejection he decided to go whole hog and reach satori. On accomplishing this the monks intuitively knew bodidharma knew what he was talking about and became more resceptive. Thus he founded Chan buddhism or chinese mayhayana buddhism. Am i wrong?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by bungle
My understanding of bodhisattva is someone who renounces their buddhahood until all sentient beings are freed and that bodhisatvas may reside in any place of existance. Thus you may call for them to help you out if you truly want it. I think this is more pure land buddhism. Mayhayana is big on bodhisattvas but theravada don't acknowledge them.

your udnerstaning is pretty close...thereason the theravda school doesn't acknowledge bodhisattvas is because a bodhisattva , once he/she reaches their own nirvana, willforsake this to bring others to their., the reason you can call on one if yuo need it is probably just a ilttle optimistic that dharma hasspread and one will be nearby. These bodhisattvas are the "warrior" monks and their like.....ch'an Buddhists....like myself and many others on these boards ..........



That is interesting stuff about confuscius. When was confuscianism first created and when did chan buddhism first come to China? It would make sense that monks might bring in confuscian values into their practice since buddhism has always taken aspects of local relgions while retaining its core foundations. The idea that by practing and understanding violence you conquer it is a great idea. Similar to that of witnessing your emotions and being mindful!

I dont have exact dates gere but confucius is something like 600 and ??bc..although nothing was solid in the way of confucism until a discple a little later on.....I'lllook up some dates and get back to you asa soon I can unless NP, GeneChing or MK wants to asnwer....hmmm...boys??? :D


I understood that Bodhidharma brought with him energy cultivation methods of his own clan. He came to China and was refused approval to spread his mayhayana teachings. Also, i understood that when he came to China he wasn't enlightened just very realised and spirtualy advanced. Seeing his rejection he decided to go whole hog and reach satori. On accomplishing this the monks intuitively knew bodidharma knew what he was talking about and became more resceptive. Thus he founded Chan buddhism or chinese mayhayana buddhism. Am i wrong?

mmm hmm...guatama Siddartha, or buddha, was a prince in India, he renounced this life to persue enlightenment....he brought with him some beliefs circulating India and went from province to province trying to "sell" his beliefs to leaders in hope that it would bring peace and enlightenment to end the warring ways of of the time.....He didn't rach his greatest enligtenment until A. he spent much time in total lack of material comfort believing aesetic detatchment to be the best path...until he met this beautiful looking woman swimming in a pond..looking healthy andradient and seeing her seeing him looking so deprived of food and sustanence, decided that dead he would cease to be able to continue to do good .....and so when she offered him a meal he accepted and then began to accept alms in the way of charity food donations from people in local townships where in return he would spread dharma ( doctrines and teachings of his enlightenments).....he travelledand met with many great leaders but could not convice them to subscribe to his beliefs as a means of brining peace and good rule to each province ...andso disheartened and seeking where he could better improve his notions and methods, went to what is now know as "damos cave"...where he sat meditating..reflecting and considering life and humanity, morales and war amongst many other things....for 9 yrs he sat and got up only to stretch and move about his cave which in doing so borne gongfu as we ( or as ancient China) would know it ergo ........he eventually took this back to a particular provincial leader with whom he had had good relations and who was receptive to his words and ideas and a temple was built so that height teach him / his pweople and translate scriptures...I'm not 100% but since the first buddhist temple in China was built in luoyang, my guess is that's the one we're talking about...

If you have questions you cant find answers to here ...google is your friend and will turn up alot of good information...just be sure to check your sources andreconfirm elsewhere...because I'm doing my doctoral in Ch'an Buddhism, I also have a few links I can give you......read some sutras..or search on chinese history ...buddhism ...ch'an or even many of the current leading monks' sites ) ie: xingpeng, shi guolin, shi xing hao, shi decheng and at russbo.com , you will find some good information and pictures

happy searching :D

[bungle]

Ok. You confused the hell out of me now. Arn't your combining the life of sidhartha buddha with that of Bodidharma or is there supposed to be a break in that long paragraph?

They cannot be the same person....buddha 500 BC. Chan 500AD. Kinda of a gap there....

Since your doing a doctorate in Chan. Is Chan founded on mayhayana buddhism or did bodhidarma bring a unique style of buddhism with him?

Also. What nationality are you Blooming Lotus?

[blooming lotus]

now you're confusing me ..........

I'll leave you with some searches and get get some links and dates back when I can...look up chan and mahayana...then we'll talk

Ps. I'm potrguese mainly...why's that? yes I know, my typing is not so fabulous..thankyou, i've been told before ;)

[bungle]

The Chinese Chan school's own historical accounts indicate that the school was founded with the arrival of a somewhat legendary Indian monk named Bodhidharma, ostensibly the twenty-eighth patriarch in a lineage that extended all the way back to Úâkyamuni (Sakyamuni).

Bodhidharma is recorded as having come to China to teach a "separate transmission outside of the texts" which "did not rely upon textuality." His special new form of religion was then transmitted to through a series of Chinese patriarchs, the most famous of whom was the Sixth Patriarch, Huineng

Ok, got that

Are you saying sidhartha gautama :
"..andso disheartened and seeking where he could better improve his notions and methods, went to what is now know as "damos cave"...where he sat meditating..reflecting and considering life and humanity, morales and war amongst many other things....for 9 yrs he sat and got up only to stretch and move about his cave which in doing so borne gongfu as we ( or as ancient China) would know it ergo ........he eventually took this back to a particular provincial leader with whom he had had good relations and who was receptive to his words and ideas and a temple was built so that height teach him / his pweople and translate scriptures"

This is what bodhidharma did not sidhartha. Can you re -read your post please?

Thanks
Andy

[David Jamieson]

THe best scholastic efforts indicate that Ch'an was born of Mahayana sect of Buddhism.

However, Mahayana still uses many of the precepts of Theraveda.

All that aside, and I've said this before, Ch'an and it's concepts and intellectual ideas are held in the Lankavatara Sutra which was transmitted to Hui ke by Bodhidharma.

Ch'an became fully developed and is still being developed through time, but the heaviest of the stones in it's foundations were laid with it's first 6 patriarchs.

for an english translation of teh lankavatara sutra online go here:

The Lankavatara Sutra (http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/mahayana-writings/lankavatara-sutra.htm)

here is more information in regards to Chinese Buddhism, teh Mahayana school and the patriarchs of Chan:

all that Chan stuff (http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/G002SECT6)

Now of course, there is one heckofa lot of information in regards to this stuff. I also was bemused that people sought information on Chan from Martial arts teachers.

While some may have it, for the most part Iwould have to say that your average martial arts teacher's understanding of Chan is quite rudimentary and when we look around at various websites about Shaolin Kungfu, Chan, Bodhidharma and all that, the write up is always secondary and minimal compared to say, the teachers biography and pictures of the class etc etc.

What I am saying is that Chan is more often than not, NOT the focus of a kungfu school.

Chan, is something that leads to the seperation of master and student and could in my opinion really be considered "dangerous" to the system of filial piety that many kungfu teachers seem to demand.

Food for thought.

anyway, I'm off to dust the dust off the lamp stand that does not exist. hahahahah

toodles!

[bungle]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520219724/104-5992207-9339152?v=glance

Who wrote the bodhidharma anthology then if Bodhidharma is a myth?

I skim read that link and it seems to suggest that many different folks were responsible for influencing the development of Chan. I'm not sure though because i didn't recognise any of the names. Maybe they are using different version of popular names. I don't know.

Still interesting.

I need a break from this subject i think. Kinda doing my head in. Info overload and all that....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I dont have exact dates gere but confucius is something like 600 and ??bc..although nothing was solid in the way of confucism until a discple a little later on.....I'lllook up some dates and get back to you asa soon I can unless NP, GeneChing or MK wants to asnwer....hmmm...boys??? He was born in 551 B.C. and died in 480 B.C.

It wasn't until the Han (206 BC-220 AD) dynasty that Confucianism became established as the official Chinese state philosophy.

[David Jamieson]

well, many great philosophical books, or the intellectual explanations of the source teachings are often written and compiled by the students.

for instance, the tao te ching was probably compiled from a great deal of folklore and teachings over a period of more than a thousand years. And while Lao Tzu may or may not have existed, he is attributed with being it's author.

The recent discovery in 94 of the Grass leaf Tao Te Ching would indicate otherwise though and these things will be under the continuous scrutiny of scholars for as long as there are scholars! imo. :)

For Ch'an, while it's founding is attributed to Bodhidharma, (another who is disputed to have existed in reality), it is with some certainty that his alleged student Hui ke did indeed exist and he passed the lamp to the next and so on.

Often times, a person who is presenting radical changes in thinking will not accept responsibility for the teachings themselves and instead will attribute them to one who came before and was greater than they. this often gives "face" to the teachings and discludes any personal attacks on the person disseminating the teachings and therefore allows the teachings to carry on. THere is no actual founder to attack and so we must struggle only with whether or not the information has merit. as we delve deeper we are either convinced, or not convinced that these are truths to which we will or will not subscribe. If we subscribe to enough of the truths, we will overlook the untruths and in time scrub them out, or replace them with something less contradictory.

This applies pretty much to all esoteric lines of thought and their associated intellectual offerings, that is to say, the writings.

The same is of the western bible. The pentatuch fo example is attributed to Moses, when in fact it is difficult to prove moses even existed and if so, these 5 books are more likely a compilation of history and religious teachings.

the teachings of jesus are all drawn form the quelle (latin for "source"). It is said by scholars (again those infernal scholars!) that Mark was the first to compile his gospel and that the Q was where he bagan and he wove the life story of Jesus around the teachings. The actual Q does not contain any biographical information at all and instead is a collection of parrabels not unlike the tao te ching. :)

the case of teh gospel of John is slightly different because this one claims to be actually written by the disciple John and it is teh source most likely of the biographical information. What is interesting is that historically, it has proven to be most difficult to prove if a man name Jesus Emmanual Bar Joseph even existed at all! Again teh students giving face to the teachings?

Take note, the life histories and teachings of Guatama and Muhammad are readily available and they took full responsibility for what they taught, lived their lives and died as men. Anyway, just saying :)

THe nature of Ch'an is so inward and it is a fact that words are wholly inadequate in the relaying of information about the nature of the soul of a human being, so much of the intellectualization of it is for naught. It may only be that these reems and mounds of written stuff are but a mere door, presented to us. To gain the true knowledge we must step through the door and acquire deeply personal experience that cannot and is not duplicated in anyone else yet at the same time in everyone.

So, there's the door, the choice is yours, try not to fry your noodle on passing through it.

cheers

[blooming lotus]

some thought prevoking stuff......

i do havesomething to add but I havea class in five minutes...

later

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Take note, the life histories and teachings of Guatama and Muhammad are readily available and they took full responsibility for what they taught, lived their lives and died as men. Anyway, just saying :)

Interesting that you would mention this. Are you suggesting that the teachings of these people are more valid because of this or not?

[bungle]

Don't get started on Christianity dude. From what i've read gnostic christians have it down best.

That bodhidharma book i gave a link to seems to point to bodhidharma existing. Actually that is something he discusses in the book so i guess i'd have to read it.

I suppose it doesn't affect the outcome much. We still had bad ass fighting shaolin monks.....apprently....

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by bungle
Ok. You confused the hell out of me now. Arn't your combining the life of sidhartha buddha with that of Bodidharma or is there supposed to be a break in that long paragraph?

They cannot be the same person....buddha 500 BC. Chan 500AD. Kinda of a gap there....

Since your doing a doctorate in Chan. Is Chan founded on mayhayana buddhism or did bodhidarma bring a unique style of buddhism with him?

Also. What nationality are you Blooming Lotus? yuo're right...my bad, I even went back an preparred something else for you but I just don't have time now to back track...

Idon't even have the links here, but like someone said, there's plenty of information on the web and if you're interested, you're own searches should keep you busy for as long as you're up to it

[bungle]

Actually Blooming Lotus i'm interested to know what you think of that bodhidharma anthology book. I'm thinking of getting it. I read first bit on amazon looks like the guy did a pretty good bit of study.

[David Jamieson]

Interesting that you would mention this. Are you suggesting that the teachings of these people are more valid because of this or not?

nope, just sayin, all conclusions must be drawn by the viewer. lol
I don't argue my deeper belief sets with anyone, why would i do that? hahahahaha.

cheers

[canglong]

originally posted by bungle
On why buddhist monks might of felt the need to develop a martial art. What better way would there to influence and get the respect of the warlords and generals of the country? It appears you are seperating the three treasures of Shaolin and then trying to define them sepreate and apart which may or may not work for the individual. To work with you on an answer may I first ask you to describe your understanding of what is Shaolin and what is its purpose.

[bungle]

Hi Canglong. I'd be interested in what you have to say so i'll try to fufil your request.

I understand Shaolin orignally be the name of a Chan buddhist temple in China. Here first ideas on Chan were transmitted from india. The transmission included Meditation, qigong and perhaps the odd sutra.

Then Chan spread from there. It appears that China has had a very turbulent history and political and social extremes have lead to a neccesary level of protection in order to preserve Chan practice. Thus the monks took up the study and practice of advanced martial arts in which they utilised their abundant free flow of Chi to perfect. Only those wishing to provide protect would do so; the training is not a manditory part of Chan.

The purpose of shaolin was to give sanctuary to those seeking enlightenment utilising the Chan method.

The quote you mentioned was a fleeting thought but i'm sure that the monks would be aware of any influence and captilise on it. The struggle for power involved highly trained troops and i'm sure any general would seek to unlock the secrets held by the Shaolin or any other martial temple.

That's what i've gleemed from this and other threads. My ideas have evolved quite well i think. I released on wanting to know the answer actually and intuitively was guided to the time line of buddhist history on buddhanet.net. Seeing the persecution of buddhism over the ages helped me understand why it would be neccesary to try and preserve the school somehow. I'm sure there is more to it than this.

[Phenix]

Chan is as simple and direct as " Thus it is ".

The mind seal of non mind. Your original face is just your alertness conscious nature.

The rest are stories of thousand's of years but is it any Chan there or just stories over stories.....




Shao Lin is not equal to Chan.

When there is NON mind, there is nothing particula has to fullfil to being Chan, but all details revail without one thinking conciously.

No, you cant read those and undersand Chan from Books. But everything and including Books can triggle the realizatoin of Chan.




If you use you conscious thinking mind want to know about Chan. Then it is impossible. Not to mention trying to use principle to classified what is Chan. those are exactly mind loop which keep on in the duality --- never will meet Chan. Chan is beyond the conscious thinking mind. one cannot present all the information of an audio/video movie clip with a still drawing.




So what is the relationship between Chan and Martial art? As we can see more and more writing were published about Chan Chan Chan but then what is the relationship? Has it to be a certain shape or form or treasures...

The varja sutra said it clearly, He who seek within sound, He who seek within vision, those people walks a bias path, they will not be able to realize the Tatagatha.


The relationship between Chan and Martial art is as simple as Martial art is similar with meditation or book reading or dancing.... which can serve as a vehicle to realize Chan.

So, how? simple, Next time when you meet a tiger, Not think about you are human and it is tiger, Not think about it is going to kill you or you are going to kill it, dont reason, just as it is. And Chan will reveal itself there.


Believe it or not?

And only those who believe , will enter into the Non-Dual. For the one who always tries to reason NON-Dual with Duality trap in Duality.

Hui Ke asked Damo to settle his conscious thinking mind, Damo replied" show me your mind, I will fix it for you. Hui Ke "searchs" for the concious thinking mind instead of think or reason with logic.... He goes beyond the concious thinking mind and his mind settle. That simple. Nothing more and nothing less. notice: it is "searching" not thinking. That is important, the key of Chan.
Notice that Hui Ke didnt go there asking for Damo's view or Buddha's view of what is right or wrong or black and blue or chinese or indian or american .... He asked Damo to settle his conscious thinking mind.


For example,
When one is doing Chi Sau in WCK, when one Not thinking about oneself and the opponent, When one Not thinking about which technics to be used for counter and encounter, when one follows the WCK stanza " come recieve, goes return, using silence to subdue the action" that is the state of Chan. But people dont think that is fancy enough, so they keep adding stuffs, adding terms and terms of Daoist term, Chinese medicine terms, Confucious terms.... everything, keep reason with thier conscious thinking mind. and the conscious thinking mind keep one in Duality. That is the end of Chan in WCK Chi Sau practiced. Goes one way, one travels into the Non-dual. Goes the other way, one travels into the Duality. Same Chi Sau practiced..


One of the best martial artist who could describe Chan in term of martial art for our era is Mas Oyama. Lots of others are just book keeper of Chan writing.

Dont get trap into the conscious thinking illusion, one can wasted one's whole life invain, go no where. when you see people walking the path of Chan and then started writing those 4 noble truth, 8 paths..... those are people who has lost but trying to use the buddhist teaching to explain thier conscious thinking mind that they are not lost. BUt that is not Chan.

Chan is the pointer to find that " Body is not Bodhi tree, Mind is not the mirror, there is non a thing, how is it collect dust?" it is similar to the WC's sun punch. directed toward the center line. There is no step one step two step three. Just do it, hit that center line. One and only one step to finish the job. If it needs two steps then it is not Chan.

Principle, 4 noble truth, 8 paths... all belongs to the duality. and Chan's job is to get to Non duality. Not counting 4, 8, 16, 108 in the duality. there is no different in the Chan view that either you count 4 or 360. you still in duality if you still in duality.

read about What Mas Oyama said about Chan instead of reading those very Creative lecture or writing or His-story which can be a great fantasy movie's plot. Get a real Chan patriach to learn about Chan.
And Shurangama Sutra is a must. Why? because there are states one will face while practicing or searching. and one needs a GPS to understand what is going on which path to take.

Otherwise, Chan can be a great life waste. and those wise word or symbolic terms doesnt contribute much in martial art.

Oyama only pro in one punch. and that one punch is called the hand of god. that one punch is Kyokushin. The True Ultimate. Till now , in our era, he is one of the best express Chan in Martial art. Why not learn from the one who can walk his talk?


search for yourself, dont think about what I have said for I am learning too. Search you shall find, think and you will lost.

just some thoughts.

[blooming lotus]

I think some of you are getting over-loaded with academia....to me chan is the enlightment I experience right before words and thoughts limit my sub-conscious understanding........it provides to me , amongst other things, understanding of concepts outlined in doctrine, insight into my gongfu...why it is important and how and why to best develop it, and also into sangha (community)...what the global / universal community is, how it relates to me and my part in it , now and over time eternal.....then how it all fits together......

to say ch'an and shaolin are seperate is typically paradoxical...........and now you're experiencing zen

shaolin is embodiment of ch'an...one leads to the other and vice versa...if you are practicing ch'an ...you arealsopracticing shaolin at its' core ....if you are practicing shaolin and its' beliefs ...you are obviously a practioner of ch'an.......

hence the paradox....;)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by blooming lotus

shaolin is embodiment of ch'an...one leads to the other and vice versa...if you are practicing ch'an ...you are also practicing shaolin at its' core ..
if you are practicing shaolin and its' beliefs ...you are obviously a practioner of ch'an.......



What a great logical derivation from a conscious thinking mind.

[bungle]

It doesn't matter does it. Until you're advanced practioners of zen you'll still rely on your mind to give you answers which are based on subconcious beliefs and you'll both have different points of views.

I think i have the answer anyway. The monks developed shaolin as a TOOL to conquer fear, agression and probaly many of other things. It just so happens two man combat is a great TOOL for developing the self in certain ways. Just as the koan and meditation are tools

[Phenix]

Originally posted by bungle
It doesn't matter does it.

Until you're advanced practioners of zen you'll still rely on your mind to give you answers which are based on subconcious beliefs and you'll both have different points of views.

I


Great conscious thinking mind logic.


However,
If one always still rely on one's conscious thinking mind, when is one going to be having the realization? As it said, can polisihing bricks become mirror? if one is going to learn Thai boxing, one better starts to and get use to use legs.


There is a different between using logically thinking derivation trying to imagine and describe how a tiger look and to describe how a tiger look while looking at it. It is not a point of view question.



Thus, Shen Siu's " body is bohdhi tree, mind is the clear mirror, always polish it, not to let it collect dust" is not Chan.

Disregard of how long Shen Siu study with the fifth chan patriach Hung Ren, Shen Siu is a Buddhist monk who knows lots of Buddhist teaching. BUt he doesnt know Chan.


In the same token, Does Shao Lin = to Chan? No, why? Shen Siu is a top student of Hung Ren, the fifth patriach of Chan, even him doesnt know Chan.

The wisdom of Prajna , before this wisdom was realized one can only say one study Chan. But one didnt do Chan yet one doesnt know how to. Only after one realized the body of the Prajna wisdom then one started Chan. That is the state of Kai Wu or open realization. What it realized? the body of Prajna Wisdom.
It is a very clear cut stuffs.




Thus, if one still stuck in the one counter and encounter, such as he uses middle punch I use side outer block or Tan sau.....or the distance, the space, the steps....... those are using the conscious thinking mind to manage type of state. That is not Chan. Chan state is about the Non-dual.

"Karate is the most ZEN-like of all the martial arts. It has abandoned the sword. This means that it trascends the idea of winning and losing to become a way of thinking and living for the sake of other people in accordance with the way of Heaven. Its meanings, therefore, reach the profound levels of human thought."
~Mas Oyama~

"One must try everyday to expand one's limits."
~Mas Oyama~

"If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception. Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen," a thus, he makes Zen an integral part of his system. Thus, Oyama has not only integrated Zen with bushido and the "martial art" ideal of self-perfection from skill perfection, but he has also added perhaps the most important qualities of all into his kyokushin system: courtesy, respect, wisdom and humility. "

~Mas Oyama



just some thoughts.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Phenix



Great conscious thinking mind logic.


However,
If one always still rely on one's conscious thinking mind, when is one going to be having the realization? As it said, can polisihing bricks become mirror? if one is going to learn Thai boxing, one better starts to and get use to use legs.


There is a different between using logically thinking derivation trying to imagine and describe how a tiger look and to describe how a tiger look while looking at it. It is not a point of view question.



Thus, Shen Siu's " body is bohdhi tree, mind is the clear mirror, always polish it, not to let it collect dust" is not Chan.

Disregard of how long Shen Siu study with the fifth chan patriach Hung Ren, Shen Siu is a Buddhist monk who knows lots of Buddhist teaching. BUt he doesnt know Chan.


In the same token, Does Shao Lin = to Chan? No, why? Shen Siu is a top student of Hung Ren, the fifth patriach of Chan, even him doesnt know Chan.

The wisdom of Prajna , before this wisdom was realized one can only say one study Chan. But one didnt do Chan yet one doesnt know how to. Only after one realized the body of the Prajna wisdom then one started Chan. That is the state of Kai Wu or open realization. What it realized? the body of Prajna Wisdom.
It is a very clear cut stuffs.

are you sure that just realising you had a desrire to do this wasn't a prajna insight in itself??


Thus, if one still stuck in the one counter and encounter, such as he uses middle punch I use side outer block or Tan sau.....or the distance, the space, the steps....... those are using the conscious thinking mind to manage type of state. That is not Chan. Chan state is about the Non-dual.

or the many facets of nothing


"Karate is the most ZEN-like of all the martial arts. It has abandoned the sword. This means that it trascends the idea of winning and losing to become a way of thinking and living for the sake of other people in accordance with the way of Heaven. Its meanings, therefore, reach the profound levels of human thought."
~Mas Oyama~

"One must try everyday to expand one's limits."
~Mas Oyama~

"If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception.

seeing without seeing.........


Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen,"




anything can be zen...........



a thus, he makes Zen an integral part of his system. Thus, Oyama has not only integrated Zen with bushido and the "martial art" ideal of self-perfection from skill perfection, but he has also added perhaps the most important qualities of all into his kyokushin system: courtesy, respect, wisdom and humility. "

~Mas Oyama



just some thoughts. another prajna wisdom ????

[Phenix]

are you sure that just realising you had a desrire to do this wasn't a prajna insight in itself?? -----------


Great question from a conscious thinking mind.



anything can be zen........... ----------

This is where the conscious thinking mind unable to identify.




seeing without seeing......... --------


who sees? what is seen?




another prajna wisdom ????----------

another conscious thinking mind's question.



Some leads by finger and see the moon. Some decide to keep thinking and explore the finger. The fat finger, the thin finger, the short finger, the long finger...... goes on and on and on and on.
In the realm of conscious thinking mind, there are un ended of finger discussion.

To see the moon, Just look in the direction of the finger lead. NOt investigate the finger.....


A free will world, isnt it?

[Vash]

Why look at the finger or the path thereof? Look towards the moon and move. Eventually, you'll get there. And whatever route you happened to take getting there, that was the right one.

[Phenix]

Look towards the moon and move. ------


nothing was said about move.
Must be some conscious thinking mind extrapolation.



Eventually, you'll get there. -----

Nothing said about get there too.




And whatever route you happened to take getting there, that was the right one. -----------


One stick with the finger. One stick with getting there. One stick with you and me, and One stick with the right one. All great creative conscious thinking mind's thinking.

just look at the moon. nothing more nothing less. why use the conscious thinking mind keep thinking? hahaha, it is a human habit isnt it :D


Good night Sweet dream!

[bungle]

Don't be foolish though. We are attached to our minds and it would be very hard for us to reach satori in our modern world with our current minds. The finger is the method to cultivate the mind. Not so our mind becomes perfect but so it becomes easier for us to see the truth.

That is what they mean when they say polish the mirror. We do we clear the mind of thought or develop intense concentration; whatever. Then when we have the realisation we realise there was no mirror to begin with.

We're obsessing on how to clean the mirror? Well, who cares. As long as you cleaning it then discussing things does no harm from my point of view. I can see the motivation to do so wayning though.

Personally, i enjoy my mirror cleaning and i'm not interested in seeing the moon yet. i imagine as my mirror gets cleaner my motivation will change.

[blooming lotus]

your mirror??????...oh you mean your mind ......................;)

[bungle]

The direction of this conversation has gone ary.

The aim was to explain the apprent paradox of martial buddhist monks in intellectual terms.

I got the impression that some of you believe the answer does not lie within the intellectual realm.

Well explain why this is so. What about it can't be explained and why? If it can be explained intellectually then go for it.

Are you sure that it cannot be explained intellectually or just that YOU can't explain it intellectually?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by bungle



Are you sure that it cannot be explained intellectually or just that YOU can't explain it intellectually?


Let see how Mas Oyama put it.


------------------------------------------------------------------


In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. Can this concept not be put to great use in karate?



While fighting, you stand facing your opponent. When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself. This entire process takes only a fraction of a second, but what if the incoming attack is a fraction of a second faster?


If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure.

The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception. Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen," a thus, he makes Zen an integral part of his system.

-----------------------------------------------------------------


How intellectually is "thinks nothing, The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything." ?



my one cents.






---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"be ware, what you think what it is might not be what it is. ---- Mr Rock. Fantasy island.

[Da_Moose]

"All Buddhist schools of teaching have an inherent balancing factor - the teaching itself. The Dharma acts as a giant gyroscope that maintains its balance despite all attempts to orientate it wrongly in different directions. Any error in understanding the Dharma will eventually become apparent it its devotee is sincere and persistent in application of the teachings. Thsi is the Dharm's great strength."


Phenix is right in that the Zen (Chan) experience cannot be completely intellectualized. It must be experienced to be fully understood. However, that was not the main topic of this thread. Perhaps he would care to begin a new thread in which he can continue his conversations?


Buddhist Monks practiced the martial arts as a way to dispel illusions and see reality. As their studies and practices became more intense/involved, so did their knowledge of the martial arts.

[bungle]

That sounds more like it Moose. I'll start a new thread.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
"


Buddhist Monks practiced the martial arts as a way to dispel illusions and see reality.


As their studies and practices became more intense/involved, so did their knowledge of the martial arts.


how can that be done?
without understand what Zen is in the first place?

[blooming lotus]

chan meditation in practice will give you the understanding of dharma...and vice versa...of which intellectual perception is part