How many hours of sleep??

[cha kuen]

Western medicine says that we need 8 hours of sleep to be healthy and functional.

What does chinese medicine say? I would think that chinese medicine along with chi kung etc.. can push our bodies to the limit, while still being very healthy.

How many hours of sleep isthe right amoutn> What time is good to sleep by? What time is best to wake up"?

I remember this bonesetter in HK said soemthing like... sleep at 11am, and wake up at 5am. Drink 1/8 of a can of a certain type of beer and eat something i forgot....
gotta ask again.. =[

[travelsbyknight]

I firmly believe that there is no minimum amount of sleep that every human needs. Western medicine is a load of bs sometimes. But so is chinese medicine sometimes.



Each person needs to decided how much sleep he needs. All you have to do is listen to your bodies. Sometimes you'll find yourself tired in the middle of the day. When that happens go to sleep. Get your priorities done first. If you get tired at 5am....go to sleep then.

[cha kuen]

i dont think chinese medicine is bs, if you're with the right person.

[blooming lotus]

it's not just chinese medicine...even in western medicine...it'sduring sleep that our body repairs itself....if you excercise alot and are extremely healthy, you can exist on only several hours per night....look at the Abott of shaolin for instance...he sleeps at 11 and is up at 4am...everyday...at my most healthy mind and body..my pattern is often similar

but that said...if you need sleep, I advise you to take it

[herb ox]

I agree that most importantly, we should all develop a sensitivity to our bodies' needs - sleep when you feel sleepy, arise when you wake naturally.

If we lived as "natural" humans - no jobs, clocks, microwave ovens... we'd probably retire shortly after sunset and arise with the morning sun. I went camping awhile back, and I crashed out around 9:30pm (about 1.5 hours after it got really dark) and woke up just before the sun started shining on my tent. I usually stay up til about 1:30-2am, and rise at around 8:30am. But without my computer and DVD player to keep me up, I just followed the natural cycles of nature.

So, to me, it seems the issue is not so much what the optimum time is, but rather how do we cope with the forced schedules of modern life and the overstimulation of TV, computers, etc?

[blooming lotus]

I am in China at the moment...for those that don't already know...and hee throughout the country they work throuh to very late most nights...but they have this standard break between 11am and 3 pm ish...during this time, nearly the whole town wil sleep...It took a bit of getting used to, not being a day sleeper, but I guess that's why they're so productive...it sincerely makes a huge difference.... then at night...only several hrs is ample...

also, many people here have never and/or rarely will watch a tv....

[GeneChing]

Current scientific sleep research is pretty weird. There's no real medical reason for sleep. There's reason for rest, but not sleep specifically, at least not on the physical level. On the mental level, it's really important, but medical/psychological researchers aren't exactly sure why. Anyway, I'm deep in research on this topic right now so wake me if anything comes up.

[Losttrak]

I have noticed that I seem to function better on 5-6 hours of sleep than on 7-10 hours. Whenever I sleep for extended periods of time, I seem to want to sleep... more and more. Granted when I get home from work, I always take a nap, but then I am awake and ready for more practice or studying. Here is what I think people should do:

Drink your green tea, fight lethargy by forcing your body to make the MOST of its sleep (sleep less!), take short naps in the middle of the day, and keep your mind active. I think it makes a good regimen. Think about it: If you sleep 2 hours less each day, after 10 years you will have been conscious for almost a year longer than everyone else. Thats almost like gaining a year of life, right? The things you could do with that time...

[blooming lotus]

Gene...that's not quite true...I personally have read data that inplies it is during sleep that our bodies repair themselves....unfortunately today I am back at work but when I was in Deng Feng/shaolin I was happily existing on 3-ish hrs sleep ea night....I guess that this is because A. my chi was better and B. I was exercising more and eating better so my body needed less repair...I'll try to remember or find a refernce link, but don't hold your breath

[travelsbyknight]

Science is VERY imprecise. Just because you found ONE single link to a study doesn't mean it has any grit to it. Scientists publish studies every day and the truth is that most of those theories/findings will be found to be false one day. IF you notice, these studies never say, "WE HAVE PROVEN, ABSOLUTELY, THAT SLEEP...." You get the picture.


From the psychology point of view, Gene's words are in the right direction. Sleep heals the first two or three hours. That's when your brain, and more importantly, your heart rests. Scientists know that.

So here's the question.

If we get healed in the first couple of hours...then why do many people sleep six or more hours a day? Perhaps sleep is more about conserving energy than restoring it.

[cha kuen]

I met this chi kung master that said his master doesnt sleep at all, he just meditates all night,

He himself sleeps liek 4 hours a day, but he practices a lot of chi kung and meditation.

I was thikning of.. meditation, chi kung, eating energy foods, and wokring out some cardio will slwoly build us up to be able to only sleep 4-5 hours a day. But the meditation, chi kung part...god knows how long that takes.

[blooming lotus]

qi is exactly what came to mind for me too....I didn't want to say it though because I'm tired of the same bs go nowhere arguement ...but glad you brought it up ;)

Ps...who said only 1 study???...I understand your point though, research is often dubious and because of conflicting arguements are hard to substantiate as truth, even after the tests...especially in a field of this kind

[CaptinPickAxe]

I remember reading young male atheletes need 10 hours of sleep. Regular young males need 8.
Adults need 4.

[blooming lotus]

and if you read it then it must be true ;)

[Kristoffer]

check the equation:
divide x many hours of actual sleep with x hours spent in bed.
(if I sleep 9 hours, and is in bed for a total 10 hours)

9
___ = 0.9 = 90 % (= procential effective sleep)
10

[herb ox]

I love sleep and dreaming. Why would anybody really want to cut it short?

mmm.... sleepy....


herb ox
(nodding off at work)

[GeneChing]

I remember reading (which of course makes it true ;) ) that cats are in a kind of half sleep something like 90% of the time. I've lived with cats and care for a feral cat colony now, and this certainly seems to be the case. So I've taken a lesson from imitative boxing and try to be more cat like with my sleeping habits. Unfortunately, my daily life doesn't allow for it, but I can dream, can't I?

As HO will testify, the two of us have done a lot of hands on research in altered states doing volunteer work with drug-related episodes with the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. There's a lot of power to half-sleep states and trance states, a lot of stuff that hasn't really been addressed in research significantly. I imagine there's a lot on stimulants for their military functions, but not so much on the psychedelics and their effects on sleep. This becomes especially interesting when you consider what dreams may come. Seriously, what is the function of dreaming? Do animals dream? These are all very elusive to study since they are so subjective.

[fungjiaotasty]

Just to share what I understand about sleep...

As far as Chinese medicine goes, sleeping earlier is better for you. Your best sleep is generally between 10:00 PM - 1:00 AM. Yin is more prevalent at night, so I'm assuming that's the time where one replenishes most of their yin.

As far as western views go, I read that a university did a study on sleeping early; subjects that slept earlier were able to concentrate more during the day, remember more, etc. Subjects that slept at a later time weren't as focused.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
I remember reading (which of course makes it true ;) ) that cats are in a kind of half sleep something like 90% of the time. I've lived with cats and care for a feral cat colony now, and this certainly seems to be the case. So I've taken a lesson from imitative boxing and try to be more cat like with my sleeping habits. Unfortunately, my daily life doesn't allow for it, but I can dream, can't I?

As HO will testify, the two of us have done a lot of hands on research in altered states doing volunteer work with drug-related episodes with the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. There's a lot of power to half-sleep states and trance states, a lot of stuff that hasn't really been addressed in research significantly. I imagine there's a lot on stimulants for their military functions, but not so much on the psychedelics and their effects on sleep. This becomes especially interesting when you consider what dreams may come. Seriously, what is the function of dreaming? Do animals dream? These are all very elusive to study since they are so subjective.

can't disagree with fjt, but as for altered states of conciousness etc...this is explained in some detail in buddhist method philosphy of jahnas...the 8 jahnas being the 8 levels of conciousness.......I assume ...with educated opinion, that these are very similiar in nature and academically break down identically.....

[CaptinPickAxe]

and if you read it then it must be true

Yeah, cause I obviously said I completely belive it...almost religiously.;)





























Oh....and that was sarcasm;)

[GeneChing]

There is a growing body of writings on altered states and buddhism. Even such venerated Buddhist publications such as Tricycle have devoted entire issues to psychedelia. There was such cross over in the west during the 60's. There seems to be a second wave emerging today. Some people have tried to map altered states on Buddhist levels of consciousness. I've yet to be impressed by this - but I'm open to it. There's a huge shamanic level of cross over, but in some ways, Buddhism was a reaction against shamanism, or at least against saddhu asceticism. Well, maybe not, it depends how you read it all.

All this discussion is making me sleepy again....

[herb ox]

Personally, I've found the state between being awake and just dozing off yields some of the most profound revelations (or, at least they seem profound at that moment). There were times in chemistry class I'd be dozing off and I'd have this revelation about the interconnectedness of what we were learning to the phenomenon of the universe - Like, realizing the rust and parts that fall off of my VW bug are a reminder of entropy - the tendency for matter to move towards a more chaotic state - as the engine that drives the universe. I began to look at the maintenance of my VW from a detached Zen state. It's all impermanent, man.

Perhaps the ascetics who don't sleep but rather meditate the night away are achieving this state for a prolonged period.

Perhaps some sleepytime research is in order....


zzzzz:o

[GeneChing]

Gotta keep waking me up, doncha? Don't think for a moment I don't know what you're up to.... ;)

The aboriginees put more value in their dreamtime than their waking reality. That's an interesting perspective, and perhaps a good coping mechanism for the harshness of life in the outback. Time to dig out that old digeridoo.

BTW, there's a good article on sleeping in our next isuue by Shaolin Monk Shi Guolin. And I can't remember if I mentioned Tu Jin-Sheng's Sleeping qigong (http://store.martialartsmart.net/prjt004.html) already, but any good ad is worth repeating. :p

nighty-night, all.