does Clf have ground fighting?

[Clfhs4life]

Any one here ever fight vs a grappler ( by which i mean some one who attack is trying to take the fight to the ground) was wondering what type of tactics a clf person would use to keep fight from going to the ground. ive only been possed by Choy Lay Fut for about 4 years now so not entierly sure if we have ground grappling like jui jitsu, sambo etc practice. what ive learned so far grappling wise has been arm, wrist breaks and dislocations. I certinally havetn seen every thing in the style yet so was wondering if u guys coudl clarify this for me :D. personally i havetn seen a postion BJJ or any of the other styles that relie on ground work have any postions i cant bite, scratch, gouge etc so not really looking for techniques like that. ide maybe like to try my luck at a sport like ufc or similar so woudl need techniques that could be used in it.

[Fu-Pow]

Most traditional CMA do not focus on ground work. They simply try to avoid going to the ground altogether. I can think of a few styles that might emphasize this aspect of fighting ie Tai Shing Pek Kwar (Monkey Boxing), Fukien Ground Boxing, Shui Chiao (possibly?). But even in these styles, the goal is to temporarily take a low position to evade or possibly upset your opponents balance rather than spend a lot of time "wrestling" on the ground.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but contrary to what BJJ guys would have you believe, most fights do not "go to the ground." In fact if you are fighting against a traditional martial artist if you go to the ground you have probably already lost because you are going there on your head, or shoulder or hip! Or you are on the ground because you are physically incapable of standing.

I think that there is a false impression on these boards that you need "ground game" in order to be a "complete" fighter. I think this misconception is perpetrated by UFC and NHB type events. I've watched a few of these in my day. These guys (especially the BJJ) guys try to take the fight to the ground ASAP. Then they proceed to "hang on" and "ride" their opponent until he is purely exhausted more than anything.

In the ring this is a great strategy, especially if you are fighting a bigger and stronger opponent. You just wear him out until you can make him tap out. But on the street you don't have time for this....you have literally SECONDS!! If you've ever been in a bar scrap or jumped by a couple guys at one time you have to deal with things very quickly and very efficiently. There's no time to "hang" on your opponent and wear him out. There's very rarely even time to go to the ground.

So anyways, no, to answer your question CLF does not have ground fighting. But CLF is not all long range. There are trips, throws, sweeps, joint locks, reversals, bridge hands, etc but not ground game per say. At least not to my knowledge.

I've also studied Hung Ga and Chen Taiji and they don't have this concept either.

[k-no]

Clfhs4life, there is no "groundfighting" per se in CLF (unless someone out there created an "offshoot" branch that does). There are a few standing parrying, grabbing and grappling techniques that aim to knock your opponent down or even to break while standing but IMHO these techniques either aren't drilled enough, or does not take a serious, quick and skilled striker into account ie: it's a lot harder to "catch" a strike than some people think.

So you want to do UFC type fighting? I'm a Choy Lay Fut man that is training to do the same. I however elect to go all out in BJJ and MMA style grappling to do so.

If you do not want to do the same, at the very least I suggest that you work with wrestlers and learn the proper underhooks, sprawling and whatnot to avoid being taken down. It is not enough to just "learn" these techniques either. You must drill them consistently in order for your muscles and nervous system to respond properly in competition or a real life situation.

BTW: It's actually much easier to go to the ground in a real fight than some people think. I've seen awesome strikers on the street get tooled on the ground by someone better versed on the ground, and it's because they were either knocked down by an unorthodox technique, or they simply SLIPPED, which happens quite often in a bar or a club scenario.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by k-no
BTW: It's actually much easier to go to the ground in a real fight than some people think. I've seen awesome strikers on the street get tooled on the ground by someone better versed on the ground, and it's because they were either knocked down by an unorthodox technique, or they simply SLIPPED, which happens quite often in a bar or a club scenario.

Are you talking about traditional martial artists or street fighters or boxer or people with zero training? It seems to me that street fighters can usually throw a pretty mean punch but lack "root" and so can easily be pushed or taken down.

BTW, I'm not saying that there is no value in ground fighting. Obviously, there is the real possiblity that you may come up against that very situation.

It's just that the focus of CMA is not to go there in the first place...or that if you send your opponent to the ground that it is not to get on the ground with him, it is with the intention to hurt him by smashing him into it. (And I believe that if you look across CMA styles that this is the case.)

[Serpent]

Actually, CLF does have groundfighting techniques, but I think only some branches still retain and teach it. It's taught at a much higher level, however, reserved for advanced students. A lot of chin na stand-up grappling is also applicable on the ground if you know how to adjust and apply the techniques.

However, if your branch of CLF does not have the CLF groundfighting, then by all means seek it elsewhere.

[Doug]

Choy Li Fut does have ground fighting, and, I claim, it is in the forms. Each person just needs to find it in the forms and practice it. It is not necessarily the same thing as the more popular wrestling seen in martial circles, but it is there.

Overall, too, staying on the ground is not a prized position for most martial artists.

Doug M

[Clfhs4life]

ya i agree the ground is the wrost place you can end up in a fight but if i do end up there i want to be able to defend my self. sadly i find this is a very probable situation that most strickers neglect. hope to see more Clf practioners puting their skills to the test.

[k-no]

Fu Pow, as a stand up fighter, I am as well much more at home standing up than otherwise. I have been told I have very good base and as far as takedown defense is concerned, I hold my own in my weight class pretty well as far as not getting taken down. However, I find in myself as well as other skilled strikers I know whose first art was not grappling, that when you DO manage to get taken down (which is inevitable if you're training consistently), you are like a fish out of water, your stand up conditioning that can get you through round after round in stand up fighting, all of a sudden deserts you when you are fighting a ground technician. So I agree with you that the ground is the last place I want to be, but if I "hit the water" I want to "be able to swim". I don't care how fit you are, its not as easy as it looks. You get gassed pretty quickly on the ground if you never train for it.

(Everyone else) As far as CLF "groundfighting". Okay...its in the forms? Which native CLF forms? Can you cite sources? I'm not going to debate this, but in my experience in TMA, "it's in the forms" is quite a cop out. Also, just like striking in forms, if all you do is drill this supposed "groundfighting" in the form, how the hell do you know it actually works? I'm pretty skeptical that anything you might term "groundfighting" in CLF is actually being drilled by anyone, much less drilled in a reality based scenario by two practicioners. And when I mean groundfighting, I DO MEAN groundfighting, not some techniques to use on the ground so you can stand back up. And especially not some stuff the instructor came up with piecing parts of some form together to create "groundfighting".

This reminds me of an article I read on Shotokan Karate "groundfighting" that mysteriously was not being taught in any Karate schools until quite conveniently, the advent of the UFC and it's similar sister promotions.

[Doug]

k-no,

There is no reason to become defensive or aggressive. No, to say something is in "the forms" is not a cop out. You explore the forms, you use your mind to figure out what you can do, and you apply it. It is pretty easy to do once you do it. Maybe you mean something else when you say "groundfighting." However, just because you have not referenced the forms to see this possibility does not mean it does not exist.

Go through teh first Choy Li Fut form you learned. If you do not find any ground techniques in it, you need not bother with it anymore in this thread.

Doug M

[Serpent]

While I agree to a certain extent with Doug, there are also ground grappling techniques within the CLF system. If your teacher knows them he will no doubt teach them at some point.

[David Jamieson]

*get's a nice healthy apple, pulls up lawn chair, adjusts binoculars.

[Fu-Pow]

K-no,

I hear what you are saying and I think you hear what I am saying.We are prejudiced by our own real life experience. In my real life fighting experience I've had people try to take me down, even on a slippery bar floor, but because my root is very strong I'd always end up on my feet even if they managed to move me back aways. So I've never thought it very important to learn ground grappling. However, I'd like to learn a few good ground grappling techs at some point.

As for the rest of you CLF guys:

1) Please identify the forms that contain groundfighting.

2) Please identify movements from any form that contains ground fighting.

Your martial arts background might help you identify weak/vulnerable spots on a persons body in a very general way. This might help you on the ground. But unless you have trained specifically to fight from a kneeling position I have a hard time seeing how your CLF or any other stand up art training is really going to help you.

I don't necessarily agree that knowing how to ground fight is essential. But I do agree that stand up and ground are two different aspects of fighting with their own methodologies.

Peace.

[Clfhs4life]

Do the "ground" techniqes clf have flow like standing clf. iam a student of master Tat Mau Wong so maybe some of you know if we do. havetn had a chance to ask any of my sifus if there is ground work yet but if not what is a good style to try any sugjestions. rather be prepared for that attack from behind. i personally think its just predajude agisnt grappling arts that more strikers dont train in it. if a person thinks they cant and wont be taken down in a real fight from one way or another they got a rude awakening coming. its much better to be prepared for the worst then exspect it will turn out the way you wanted it to. most of the fights ive seen always had more then 1 person. not always more then 1 person fighitng but they were never alone. I belive a really good Clf fighter can keep the fight from going to the ground but in the spirit of kung fu we shoudl all be prepared for that rainy day when it does happen just my 2cp :)

[Tapani]

Hi!

First post on the forums... :)

There are some ground fighting in the snake forms of CLF, but these techniques are mostly to defend or attack against a standing opponent and are not your typical ground fighting techniques.

Also there is supposed to be a form for wrestling movements(throws etc.), but this form is really rare. I'm not sure if this form has some ground fighting as well, maybe not. I suppose only some of the lines teach this form and then at a very high level. Would really like to see that one in action thou.

I agree that saying that something is in the form is waaaay too vague to be of any use. Hmm, the first two forms I learned were ng lung ma and peng yang, and there are NO ground fighting in those...


Tapani

[Eddie]

K-no,
good post, although there are some points which I don’t agree with. First of all, I don’t think that most fights end up on the floor. I have had this discussion with my friend many time over, and I still don’t believe it is all true.
I have worked as a bouncer and have had my fair share of ‘ street fights’ – if you really want to call it that. In my personal experience, very few fights go to the floor, as mostly fights are not just one on one. More than often, you are either in a group, or your opponent is part of a group. If I take you to the floor, your friends will kick the living daylights out of me, and vice versa. It just don’t happen exactly like that in reality.
However, I also say that you do need to know how to fight on the floor. Here BJJ is way more superior than any other art that I have come across (and again its simply my own opinion). I have seen some stand up fighters who really got taken by surprise by a good grappler, so I fully understand your view.

”street fighting” doesn’t really resemble UFC type fighting. Although it might be more closer than some other fighting sport, I have not seen enough proof to make me think other wise. Most real fights I have seen, is over in an instant.

I remember some time back you mentioned about training for some ufc tournament and you mentioned how you like throwing charp choys from the mount position. Hows it all going? You done some tournament? Keep us updated. It’s about time a CLF guy ruffles some feathers over at the MMA scene. I wish you all the luck.

[Eddie]

This is no joke, I once read about python style which is supposed to be the Chinese version of BJJ … :)

I wonder where I read this again..
:D

[CLFNole]

I think the CLF monkey set has some "ground" fighting techniques, but not in the traditional BJJ sense. CLF has cum la and various takedowns and sweeps, however I agree its more of a stand-up art. The focus is in no way shape or form to the ground like BJJ or even other takedown arts like judo or aikido.

CLF is first and foremost a striking art. No art is 100% full proof everything has a weakness or two. To supplement some ground fighting (ie. submissions, grappling or whatever) is okay a helps make a person well-rounded to handle any situtation.

That being said I am quite traditional and prefer the CLF itself.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Perhaps a semantic distinction needs to be made between:

"Fighting from the ground"

and

"Ground fighing."


"Fighting from the ground" implies the following: You are on the ground either on your hands, your knees or back. Your opponent is standing. You are using primarily the legs to injure or fell your opponent. Example: Tai Shing Pek Kwar Monkey Boxing, Capoeira.

"Groundfighting" implies the following. Both you and your opponent are on the ground, hands, knees or back. You are jockeying for the dominant position to execute a joint locking or submission technique. Examples: Wrestling, BJJ


CLF may "Fighting from the ground" eg in the CLF monkey form. But I seriously doubt it has a form for "Groundfighting."

Does that help clarify?

[k-no]

I'm not saying MOST fights end up on the ground. I'm saying a lot more fights end up on the ground than some people think. In a lot of cases, skilled boxers and martial artists get taken down quite easily because, frankly, they think they are "too good to be taken down" or are just not expecting it. I've known many people who were quite proficient fighting on the street, and managed to keep it on their feet. Usually this was the case because BOTH PARTIES ELECTED to stay on their feet. I also know some rough guys who have a wrestling background. 9 times out of 10 during the streetfights I've seen them in or heard from others, when they wanted someone on the ground, it WENT to the ground. One of my seniors, who is much more skilled than I in CLF knows about my other training and even asks me to train with him sometime in takedown defense, because "(our friend) keeps taking him down and slamming him when they spar.


In one case I was witness to, a friend of mine fought a TKD black belt who knew his stuff. After squaring off and trading some good shots, my friend, who was untrained in any combat arts but was filled with a "you stole my girlfriend" rage, instinctively clinched and tripped the TKD guy, quite easily if I may add. The TKD guy, who gave my friend a nice array of bumps and bruises and a couple of swift kicks to the head not only a minute earlier, had only this to offer as defense; a hearty array of expletives interspersed with "Get off me! Get off me!" Since my friend was untrained, he was unable to finish him in this position, but he knew well enough to use his limbs to block the TKD man's armpits so he could not use his hands.

The above experience would have ended MUCH differently had one or both persons knew a thing or two about fighting on the ground. This was not a "set up fight", but happened out of the blue as we were driving and I stupidly (or not so) commented, "Hey, isn't that (your girlfriend) with that dude?

As far as the forms thing....me, aggressive? Not at all. But it is all quite vague. I bet I could find moves in CLF forms that can help me climb trees too. But does that make it valid?

Regarding Fu Pow's last comment; YES, that is what I mean. I've no doubt that some CLF and Monkey style techniques "fighting from the ground" have some obvious effectiveness, I just don't see them working on world class fighters, especially if they decide to engage you on the ground.

[k-no]

Hey Eddie,

Thanks for the luck, I'll need it. I stopped training (MMA) a few months ago because of business, now after tax time here in the US, I've recently started up again and am quite serious with it now. I'm training with a great bunch of guys who are all great at what they do. I've got a lot more things to learn and a whole hell of a lot more conditioning before I am ready, but I rolled with #1 ranked Shooto fighter Jake Shields who fights in Japan and he reckons if I come in regularly I should be ready to rock in 6 months. (By the way, he totally OWNED me on the mat) Let's see if my body can take all this abuse for that long!

As an aside, I used to train with UFC fighter Eugene Jackson's guys. Not many people know this, but he was a Kung Fu man as well. So there you have a good representative of kung fu in MMA, although he used a lot of submission grappling techniques. If you watch his fight with Yamamiya in one of the UFC Japans, you'll see him use some switch step and punch technique, TWICE, connecting both times. Eugene told me that he was using a Mantis technique.

[Eddie]

Actually, CLFNole has a point in his post. Many times, the same principles of Cum la (Chin na) can be applied when you are on the floor in a similar way as BJJ. What I am saying is, that once you understand certain concepts of locks etc, you would be able to apply them from just about any position, lets just imagine using cum la for a leg lock as an example. If you apply the rule that one goes over and one goes under, you should be able to make it on the floor.
That being said, it takes some time getting used to fighting on the floor, and if you don’t regularly train this, it might not be so easy.

Then again, I suppose if your ground boxing skill (like monkey style etc) is good, you should be able to ward of your attacker before he gets you into an uncomfortable mounting position or a typical BJJ position (fighting from the ground as Fu Pow said). I suppose, at the end, it all boils down to the individual.

Personally, I like stand up fighting. One of my training partners is also a UFSA (SA’s version of the UFC) champion. It does happen that he gets me to the floor sometimes, but I have been able to ward of his advances with some quick side steps etc. When I do hit the floor, Im finished.

CLF has a lot of sweeps and takedowns. Someone once told me that the idea behind kung fu throws and takedowns (coming from Mongolian wrestling) is to injure the opponent with the throw or sweep. If I happen to go down with my opponent, I try to fall so that I injure him in the process, hoping that it would end the fight.

Im suddenly remembering a fight between Maurice Smith and some UFC fighter (think it was Conan something) where Maurice kept on warding of his opponents take downs, waited, and then followed up with a perfect round house kick to the UFC guy’s head, knocking him out.

I always say, the fight will go to the one who wants it the most…

[Eddie]

k-no,
I don’t think many people realise how difficult it is to prepare for major competitive (and Pro) fights. Simply two hours a day is not enough, and then business can really impose on your training time. I am currently “serving out” a 6 months break (on doctors orders) but will be back in the ring by end of may if all goes well.

Let us know when your fights are coming up. You have my support.
Eddie

[Sho]

I think the CLF grappling form you're referring to is the Ngoi Lem Pek Da Seui Sau Yum Yeung Kung, which is one of the secondary level forms taught in the Chan Family system.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Clfhs4life
personally i havetn seen a postion BJJ or any of the other styles that relie on ground work have any postions i cant bite, scratch, gouge etc so not really looking for techniques like that. ide maybe like to try my luck at a sport like ufc or similar so woudl need techniques that could be used in it.

I haven't read this whole thread yet, so I guess I've got a lot of replying to do if there are a lot of statements like this. Grapplers thrive on taking away your space. you would be surprised at how little you can actually do when you are being controlled. as far as gouging goes, remember, if you can gouge, so can we. And if we have you controlled, it's much easier to do so. You can also knee, strike and elbow while on the ground in MMA matches, so we're not just holding you on the ground like we would in a bjj tourney. Things like scratching are trivial - nuissances, like pressure points are. And, even if you do try them, be careful HOW you do it, because extending your limb will get your arm broken.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Shui Chiao (possibly?).

it doesn't.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but contrary to what BJJ guys would have you believe, most fights do not "go to the ground." In fact if you are fighting against a traditional martial artist if you go to the ground you have probably already lost because you are going there on your head, or shoulder or hip! Or you are on the ground because you are physically incapable of standing.

that statistic is based on non trained fighters - watch them. In many cases, one will try to tackle the other. Or, they are flailing, lose their balance, end up in a clinch and ultimately fall. I've seen it several times.

I think that there is a false impression on these boards that you need "ground game" in order to be a "complete" fighter. I think this misconception is perpetrated by UFC and NHB type events. I've watched a few of these in my day. These guys (especially the BJJ) guys try to take the fight to the ground ASAP. Then they proceed to "hang on" and "ride" their opponent until he is purely exhausted more than anything.

that's completely wrong. Most of these "bjj guys" also cross train in a striking style - if you keep it standing so will they. BJJ doesn't really NEED strikes, any more than strikers NEED grappling. BJJ self defense is based on the same things our competition is - eating your space. I will cover up, bob, slip, etc. your punches and shoot in on you, which kills the effectiveness of your strikes. strikers want to do the opposite - they want to keep more space and nail me with strikes.

The problem that arose in the UFC is that strikers didn't know how to defend takedowns. It's easy to cover up and avoid strikes - Even if you hit me, I can get to you before you knock me out. From there, I can take you down. So strikers began cross training in grappling to learn takedown defenses and how to survive on he ground. Will you need that on the street against an untrained attacker? maybe not. Nor will the bjj guy need striking. But, you are training for worst case, which would assume that your attacker does have knowledge that you may not. Consequently, you cross train for "completeness".

In the ring this is a great strategy, especially if you are fighting a bigger and stronger opponent. You just wear him out until you can make him tap out. But on the street you don't have time for this....you have literally SECONDS!!

once again, we can close before strikes knock us out. Once I'm in, you're mine. I don't care about wearing you out. Once I'm in, I'm throwing you, which will hopefully end it. If not, I beat you to a pulp, assuming no other attackers in the vicinity. If the opportunity presents itself, i.e. you are trying to defend against my punches and extend your arm, I trap it and break it. I don't care about a tap, and a break only takes seconds. Some of you guys gotta get out of the ring strategies that you see and remember that bjj can be used for self defense. It's hilarious how people say "I'll use my chin na and break your wrist" but they think bjj guys will wait for you to tap instead of breaking the limb...


If you've ever been in a bar scrap or jumped by a couple guys at one time you have to deal with things very quickly and very efficiently. There's no time to "hang" on your opponent and wear him out.

see above.

There's very rarely even time to go to the ground.

Okay, let's think about this one. you and I are having some drinks and some guys jump us. they take us both to the ground. I train bjj, so I know how to maneuver on the ground - reversals, strikes, etc. whereas you don't. Do you think you can get up faster than me if we have huge guys on top of us trying to cave our faces in?

I've also studied Hung Ga and Chen Taiji and they don't have this concept either.

Some people would say otherwise. Northern Lights taiji applies their tjq principles on the ground.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


Are you talking about traditional martial artists or street fighters or boxer or people with zero training? It seems to me that street fighters can usually throw a pretty mean punch but lack "root" and so can easily be pushed or taken down.

both. I've seen trained MA get tooled by streetfighters.

It's just that the focus of CMA is not to go there in the first place...or that if you send your opponent to the ground that it is not to get on the ground with him

and without training in avoiding takedowns, how do expect to consistently do so?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by k-no
This reminds me of an article I read on Shotokan Karate "groundfighting" that mysteriously was not being taught in any Karate schools until quite conveniently, the advent of the UFC and it's similar sister promotions.

Actrually, I've heard that some okinawan systems have alot of groundwork.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Eddie
Actually, CLFNole has a point in his post. Many times, the same principles of Cum la (Chin na) can be applied when you are on the floor in a similar way as BJJ. What I am saying is, that once you understand certain concepts of locks etc, you would be able to apply them from just about any position, lets just imagine using cum la for a leg lock as an example. If you apply the rule that one goes over and one goes under, you should be able to make it on the floor.

it always irks me when people say things like this...

That being said, it takes some time getting used to fighting on the floor, and if you don’t regularly train this, it might not be so easy.

and this is the reason why. You have to train it on the ground. It won't just automagically transfer. There are different degrees of movement on the ground. you may be able to apply pressure to the back of my elbow and keep me under control if I'm standing, but on the ground, I will laugh at you and roll out of it, unless you are controlling my body also. The chin na that I've been exposed to emphasizes limb control, but not body control. On the ground, you must have both.


Im suddenly remembering a fight between Maurice Smith and some UFC fighter (think it was Conan something) where Maurice kept on warding of his opponents take downs, waited, and then followed up with a perfect round house kick to the UFC guy’s head, knocking him out.

I always say, the fight will go to the one who wants it the most…

mo smith is a perfect example of a striker who cross trained in grappling.

[Ou Ji]

SevenStar
"Things like scratching are trivial - nuissances, like pressure points are."

So I take it you don't believe in Dim Mak. Or is there insufficient room to manage a hard enough strike on a key area?

[Eddie]

” that statistic is based on non trained fighters - watch them”

Very few street fights are between ‘trained’ fighters. In these cases, often if the fight goes to the floor, its all over in any case. As I said before, I doubt that my mates (or the other people around) would allow my opponent to sit on me. Even if I was alone, and there were other around who doesn’t know me, someone would come in and ‘spoil’ your mount.

” I will cover up, bob, slip, etc. your punches and shoot in on you, which kills the effectiveness of your strikes. strikers want to do the opposite - they want to keep more space and nail me with strikes.”

A good striker would be able to do just that, if someone is solid on his feet as fu pow explained, its not as easy to take him down as everyone makes it out to be. Then again, your strategy is exactly the same as mine, as CLF and other TCMA also have throws and take downs. In my personal opinion, throws are important. It usually ends of a fight.

“Even if you hit me, I can get to you before you knock me out.”

Not always, the fight I was referring to between Mo Smith and the grappler, the grappler had no chance to get close enough to Mo. First opportunity he had, he took the guy out. But this wasn’t the original topic. No one doubted the effectiveness of learning how to grapple, actually, I remember everyone supported this idea.

“Consequently, you cross train for "completeness".”
Absolutely.

” Once I'm in, you're mine. I don't care about wearing you out. Once I'm in, I'm throwing you, which will hopefully end it.”

Isn’t that what we all would do?. If you can throw me hard enough to injure me, you won. Good san shou fighters rely heavily on throws and take downs. On a hard tar road or tiled bar floor, a throw can make the difference. We both agree on this.

” Do you think you can get up faster than me if we have huge guys on top of us trying to cave our faces in?”

that’s exactly why most fights don’t always end on the floor. Tournaments differ from street fighting. I find it hard to believe you will have enough time to mount your opponent in a street fight. I can go as far as to say I have NEVER seen this happen in any street fight. But I still support BJJ, this threat was never against that.

” Some people would say otherwise. Northern Lights taiji applies their tjq principles on the ground.”

Pardon me for my ignorance. I’m not really getting you on this issue. The question was, does CLF have ground fighting, and some of us (including myself) said no. We said, ground fighting differs from ground boxing, as most kung fu people think that ground boxing is sufficient to prevent you from getting trapped in a fight (when I speak of ground boxing, I refer to stuff like Ditang Chuan, Monkey style etc – when I refer to ground fighting, I refer to BJJ, wrestling etc). When I read your first few posts, I realised you are a MMArtist, but then in this last quote you seem to support traditional kung fu saying that taiji players would apply taiji principles in wrestling?

” and without training in avoiding takedowns, how do expect to consistently do so?”

take downs and fighting from the ground is two different things. Traditional Chinese Martial Arts have plenty of take downs. CLF has many. I think I speak for the majority of Kung Fu players when I say we do train in avoiding take downs. We DON’T train to fight on the ground (or rather our styles don’t teach this).

“it always irks me when people say things like this...”
” and this is the reason why. You have to train it on the ground.”

All due respect, why don’t you finish reading the complete post before you reply. That way you would understand what is being said. I agree, kung fu lack ground fighting, but is it all that important as we say it is? I don’t know. The original question was, does CLF have ground fighting. Many of us said NO. Does CLF have take downs? YES it does. Plenty of it. How would a skilled CLF player fare against a skilled BJJ fighter? I don’t know, honestly I don’t care. Kung Fu is much more that just fighting, that’s why most of us do it.

“ mo smith is a perfect example of a striker who cross trained in grappling.”

The fight I was referring to, he didn’t grapple. Simple kickboxing won him the match.

I have noticed that you have moderator privileges right? I’m just wondering why a MMArtist would want to be a moderator on a kung fu forum?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ou Ji
SevenStar
"Things like scratching are trivial - nuissances, like pressure points are."

So I take it you don't believe in Dim Mak. Or is there insufficient room to manage a hard enough strike on a key area?

my views on that are a completely different thread altogether... in a nutshell, many pressure points I've felt are nothing more than a nuissance. However, there are some that are pretty potent - I've seen Dr. Yang Jwing Ming make someone's arm go limp from a touch. The ability to do that is all fine and good, but how long is it gonns take you to get to that point? It's hard to hit such precise points on a moving, resisting opponent.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Eddie

Very few street fights are between ‘trained’ fighters. In these cases, often if the fight goes to the floor, its all over in any case. As I said before, I doubt that my mates (or the other people around) would allow my opponent to sit on me. Even if I was alone, and there were other around who doesn’t know me, someone would come in and ‘spoil’ your mount.

not necessarily. Granted, there are plenty of multiple attacker fights, but there are also plenty of 1 on 1 fights. I actually see them quite a bit. Not all altercations happen in a crowded bar where people will interfere. about a year ago, I chased away a guy who was mugging a paperboy. his friends were in the getaway car, not helping the guy - they just let him do the mugging. When I started running towards him, his friends still didn't get out the car. the other guy jumped in the car and they took off.

A good striker would be able to do just that, if someone is solid on his feet as fu pow explained, its not as easy to take him down as everyone makes it out to be. Then again, your strategy is exactly the same as mine, as CLF and other TCMA also have throws and take downs. In my personal opinion, throws are important. It usually ends of a fight.

rooted or not, you can be uprooted. the key, IMO, is to remain mobile. I can be mobile and still have a good base. This is where takedown defense comes in.

Not always, the fight I was referring to between Mo Smith and the grappler, the grappler had no chance to get close enough to Mo. First opportunity he had, he took the guy out. But this wasn’t the original topic. No one doubted the effectiveness of learning how to grapple, actually, I remember everyone supported this idea.

you're right, not always. nothing is absolute.


that’s exactly why most fights don’t always end on the floor. Tournaments differ from street fighting. I find it hard to believe you will have enough time to mount your opponent in a street fight. I can go as far as to say I have NEVER seen this happen in any street fight. But I still support BJJ, this threat was never against that.

it doesn't have to be a full mount. It can be a side mount, north-south, scarfhold, etc. If we are fighting and fall to the ground, if I'm on top I can establish some quick position and fire off some punches. That said, I have seen the full mount used in streetfights. In one on one fights, however, never a multi attacker situation.

even if we just slip and fall, and the guy lands on top of me. when people are on the ground, the non trained person's first instinct is genrally to hold on to you, so that you can't move. Iven though he's tecnhically not mounted, I've got this big behemoth trying to keep me from moving, and I have to be able to quickly and efficiently get up.

let's assume he doesn't fall on top. We train for that too. kick to the knee, etc. and standing up defensively is all taught in bjj self defense.


Pardon me for my ignorance. I’m not really getting you on this issue. The question was, does CLF have ground fighting, and some of us (including myself) said no. We said, ground fighting differs from ground boxing, as most kung fu people think that ground boxing is sufficient to prevent you from getting trapped in a fight (when I speak of ground boxing, I refer to stuff like Ditang Chuan, Monkey style etc – when I refer to ground fighting, I refer to BJJ, wrestling etc). When I read your first few posts, I realised you are a MMArtist, but then in this last quote you seem to support traditional kung fu saying that taiji players would apply taiji principles in wrestling?

I do support kung fu. I trained in longfist for four years. before that, I'd done jun fan and kali for about a year, and have also trained traditional japanese karate for three years. I support whatever works. If you can make your kung fu work, I support it. If you can make your TKD work, I support it. People tend to knock TKD, but I've had the he11 knocked outta me from a TKD guy in sparring, so I know it has it merits when trained properly.

take downs and fighting from the ground is two different things. Traditional Chinese Martial Arts have plenty of take downs. CLF has many. I think I speak for the majority of Kung Fu players when I say we do train in avoiding take downs. We DON’T train to fight on the ground (or rather our styles don’t teach this).

you're absolutely right, but look at what I was replying to... He said that the focus of CMA is not to go to the ground in the first place. I don't think I'd say that all CMA train to avoid takedowns. The fighting demin that is the double leg takedown has proven that alot of people, regardless of style don't train them, or at least not as much as they should. The common defense I've seen in TMA is to sidestep, which isn't always enough, even if the sidestep is in conjunction with a strike.


All due respect, why don’t you finish reading the complete post before you reply. That way you would understand what is being said. I agree, kung fu lack ground fighting, but is it all that important as we say it is? I don’t know. The original question was, does CLF have ground fighting. Many of us said NO. Does CLF have take downs? YES it does. Plenty of it. How would a skilled CLF player fare against a skilled BJJ fighter? I don’t know, honestly I don’t care. Kung Fu is much more that just fighting, that’s why most of us do it.

With all due respect, please read all of MY post. I quoted that section and stated that it always irked me. Then I quoted your next line as support to why. I was actually in agreeance with you.


The fight I was referring to, he didn’t grapple. Simple kickboxing won him the match.

the beauty of cross training. Since he did cross train, he's used to the grappler's tactics. Notice that you won't find any more than a small handful people who consistently defended grapplers without cross training. As a result of their cross training, they learned their tactics and were ready to deal with them.

I have noticed that you have moderator privileges right? I’m just wondering why a MMArtist would want to be a moderator on a kung fu forum?

ROFLMAO!!! actually, I didn't want to moderate this forum. Not because I do MMA, but because I'm rather ignorant of southern styles. My experience was northern MA. I had asked to moderate either the streetfighting forum the training forum or the ORA, but gene felt I was more needed here, as at the time there was a lot of chaos here. I think it's been cleaned up pretty nicely though. I also moderate the main forum.

[Knifefighter]

A grappler who is trained in takedowns will usually take you down.

When I was younger I was a freestyle/folkstyle wrestler. Since I had trained in taking people down for a number of years, there were very few people who were not also wrestlers who could stop my takedowns. Hence, every fight I was in, except for one, went to the ground. Three of these were in multiple opponent situations.

As far as the mount, I have finished two fights from there in multiple opponnent situations.

[Clfhs4life]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Clfhs4life
personally i havetn seen a postion BJJ or any of the other styles that relie on ground work have any postions i cant bite, scratch, gouge etc so not really looking for techniques like that. ide maybe like to try my luck at a sport like ufc or similar so woudl need techniques that could be used in it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I haven't read this whole thread yet, so I guess I've got a lot of replying to do if there are a lot of statements like this. Grapplers thrive on taking away your space. you would be surprised at how little you can actually do when you are being controlled. as far as gouging goes, remember, if you can gouge, so can we. And if we have you controlled, it's much easier to do so. You can also knee, strike and elbow while on the ground in MMA matches, so we're not just holding you on the ground like we would in a bjj tourney. Things like scratching are trivial - nuissances, like pressure points are. And, even if you do try them, be careful HOW you do it, because extending your limb will get your arm broken.

I was not saying anythign negative vs grappling arts i think all people serious in attaining combat proficeny should train if even a small extent incase that siuation does arrise. But it simply is a place where u can have " foul" techniques applied to you even if your at a better advantage to do them ( the ground). dont pretend your superman if some one bites me from a better postion it dosnt matter you I still bite back in my bad unescapble postion. this is what most MMA fail to realize. My sifus tell me pick up a rock if it is avaible, throw sand etc what ever it takes this i belive is how most kung fu styles train for combat all out what ever it takes to win. I was simply stating that i was inquiring about techniques that were out of that mind set since the goal of sport fighting/ ufc etc is not to maim and kill your oppenent. thank you for letting us know what is obvious grapplers do grapple. i was trying to get the Choy Lay Fut fighters view on it. once agin thank you for stating the obvious

[Clfhs4life]

err middle section is what seven star wrote

[k-no]

I've said most everything I can on this subject, so I'll try to keep it short.

Clfhs4life, have a biting contest if you want. Though I'm not too keen on biters, I would rather be the top guy biting than the bottom guy or the guy without a proper understanding of guard position tactics (if I'm on the bottom). As far as a rock....how can you pick up a rock if your arms are immobilized? No offense, but this is something stupid most traditional sifus would say since they don't know any better, or worse, they see their meal ticket slipping away. Another thing, if I'm mounted and I see you reach for a rock, that arm is mine and as fast as you can grab a rock and try to hit me with it, the faster I can take advantage of the situation and "break" that arm or joint. Sand? I feel sorry for you if this is all you can resort to as a defense in a grappling situation. Most skilled grapplers, if in close proximity and especially in a mounted position can grapple with their eyes closed and catch you in a bad position. In a groundfight, I'd put my money on the blind grappler over the sand throwing Kung Fu man with no knowledge of groundfighting any day.

If you guys want to avoid the ground so much on the street, I suggest you carry a knife.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Clfhs4life

But it simply is a place where u can have " foul" techniques applied to you even if your at a better advantage to do them ( the ground). dont pretend your superman if some one bites me from a better postion it dosnt matter you I still bite back in my bad unescapble postion. this is what most MMA fail to realize.

We don't you guys don't fail to realize is that you don't have as many options as you think you do once you've been taken down and controlled. In the case of the mount, you can't bite me.


My sifus tell me pick up a rock if it is avaible, throw sand etc what ever it takes this i belive is how most kung fu styles train for combat all out what ever it takes to win.

That goes back to what I was saying before - you have less options than you realize. Once that arm extends to grab something, consider it broken.


I was simply stating that i was inquiring about techniques that were out of that mind set since the goal of sport fighting/ ufc etc is not to maim and kill your oppenent.

This always irks me as well. you train to kill and maim, right? so how many arms have you broken in class? how many eyes ahve you gouged out? have you bitten anyone or thrown sand in their eyes? If not, you aren't really training for it - you're theorizing.


thank you for letting us know what is obvious grapplers do grapple. i was trying to get the Choy Lay Fut fighters view on it. once agin thank you for stating the obvious

Obviously, the "obvious" isn't so obvious to some people...

[Clfhs4life]

I was able to bite my friend when he mounted me for him to controll my head enouf for me not to be able to bite him leaves him open since he has to deal with my head as a movible object. When i said the talked about the rock etc i meant in general not in a specific situation. like how some one cant go straight into a lock there has to be the opening first to do it.

[Clfhs4life]

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that i thought biting was the end all and that it what people should do in that situation. i personally know grappling techniques already and was on one of the top 20 wrestling teams in CA . I have kept saying that grappling is a must. I was simply stating that just because some one can do something at a better postion doesnt mean the person who is in the bad postion cant land any type of harmful attacks that is all. the rock, sand etc was a statement to use your inviroment agisnt your oppenet. appernlty kno this is above your grasp so you say its traditional mumbo jumbo. I train to survive at all costs what do you train for ? to win ? you and seven star are not getting my earlier posts no ones fault =P just misunderstanding.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Clfhs4life
I was able to bite my friend when he mounted me for him to controll my head enouf for me not to be able to bite him leaves him open since he has to deal with my head as a movible object. When i said the talked about the rock etc i meant in general not in a specific situation. like how some one cant go straight into a lock there has to be the opening first to do it.

was he a grappler? when you're mounted, your head movement is irrelevant. I am high on you - my knees are in your armpits. because of that position, you can't do any sucessful arm strikes. You can't sith up much, and unless you are plastic man, you can't bite my thighs. I can see you biting him if he's trying to choke you or control your head, but this is a "real fight situation", so the only thing you will be biting are my fists as I punch down - I'm not going to be trying to choke you.

Where was he when he was mounted on you? was he down near your waist?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Clfhs4life
I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that i thought biting was the end all and that it what people should do in that situation. i personally know grappling techniques already and was on one of the top 20 wrestling teams in CA . I have kept saying that grappling is a must. I was simply stating that just because some one can do something at a better postion doesnt mean the person who is in the bad postion cant land any type of harmful attacks that is all. the rock, sand etc was a statement to use your inviroment agisnt your oppenet. appernlty kno this is above your grasp so you say its traditional mumbo jumbo. I train to survive at all costs what do you train for ? to win ? you and seven star are not getting my earlier posts no ones fault =P just misunderstanding.

I'm all for slamming someone into a brick wall if there's one around - no argument there. I'm against dirt on the ground because once you extend that arm a grappler will take it. If you are not fighting a grappler, that may indeed work, however, in my training, I assume that my opponent is trained, that way I don't attempt techniques that wouldn't work on a trained person. You never know who you will fight on the street and what they have trained in.

[k-no]

ok dude....rock....scissors...paper....sand...whateve r. Weren't we discussing the ground element? When exactly were you going to grab the rock, while we were in a standing position? That's great advice coming from a Choy Lay Fut sifu. "Sifu, what do I do when someone tries to fight me on the street?" "Grab a rock, son." I don't need to go to a martial arts school for that, I learned that in grade school. One of your sifus wouldn't happen to be Paul Vunak, would he?

I tried to give you some good advice seeing as you're inquiring about something I'm already doing. Okay, I'm done here. Good luck with yourself.

[Eddie]

“Then I quoted your next line as support to why. I was actually in agreeance with you.”

apologies for sounding slightly narfy there, just didn’t exactly understood what you were trying to say. BTW what exactly does irk mean? :)

”I do support kung fu. I trained in longfist for four years. before that, I'd done jun fan and kali for about a year, and have also trained traditional japanese karate for three years. I support whatever works. If you can make your kung fu work, I support it. If you can make your TKD work, I support it. People tend to knock TKD, but I've had the he11 knocked outta me from a TKD guy in sparring, so I know it has it merits when trained properly.”

Im with you on this one. I know some really great fighters from TKD, Karate and many other arts. Its all about heart. Not many people see it as you does then. Allot of people thinks that kung fu is to flowery for combat, karate is to rigid, and taekwondo is a sport. This is another topic all together.


” ROFLMAO!!! actually, I didn't want to moderate this forum. Not because I do MMA, but because I'm rather ignorant of southern styles. My experience was northern MA. I had asked to moderate either the streetfighting forum the training forum or the ORA, but gene felt I was more needed here, as at the time there was a lot of chaos here. I think it's been cleaned up pretty nicely though. I also moderate the main forum.”

Ahhh I remember the chaos. So they bring a mixed martial artist to sort out some stupid CLF history fights. Very clever indeed :) . We should actually have hosted an open platform fight where everyone could meet up and hit the living crap out of each other, with you as referee of course, but I guess who would sponsor such an event?

Do you also work for kung fu magazine?

So we mostly agree on things, maybe you understand then that I (I’m sure I speak for others too) get so irritated with allot of the MMA crowd who has that “ holier than thou” attitude. We all train, and we all spend allot of time trying to master our respective styles. I always say, in the end, fighting is fighting (wasn’t it Bruce Lee who said something like unless we are from outer space and have different bodies, we all fight the same…?

Nice chatting to you

E

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
This always irks me as well. you train to kill and maim, right? so how many arms have you broken in class? how many eyes ahve you gouged out? have you bitten anyone or thrown sand in their eyes? If not, you aren't really training for it - you're theorizing. How many arms have any MMA people here broken in class? How many ankles?

Like you guys say, it's not about training the actual technique 100%, but training how you got there and how to avoid being put there yourself.

But, 7* is right. When someone is on top, you have very few options. Biting isn't going to save you. If anything, it's going to annoy the guy and make him want to hurt you more.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
As far as the mount, I have finished two fights from there in multiple opponnent situations. What were the others doing while you were in the mount? Was this the last guy standing, after you beat the others?

[Ben Gash]

Masterkiller, it's actually quite surprising what you can do with your teeth. If you bite their nipple off, only the toughest fighter will keep going as if nothing has happened, and you can do a lot of damage to the structures in the neck. If you read Geoff Thompson's stuff he details how he ended one fight by biting his opponent's finger off. Also, I wouldn't be blaise about being bitten, most human bites require surgery.
Sevenstar, that was a bit of a non point. Nothing works if you don't practice it. However, if you practice to be able to apply your CLF Chin Na and Shuai Jiao on the ground, then surely it is CLF ground work?
Fu Pow and K-no, if you lie on your back and do Hok Ma with both legs, you have a guard. If you do Horse stance face down on the floor you are in a mount. Cross stance teaches you to grapevine. CLF forms contain a whole host of chokes, arm locks and leg locks. As Sevenstar says, these have to be practiced to make them work, but they're definitely there.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
How many arms have any MMA people here broken in class? How many ankles?

actually, I've seen it happen in class and in tournaments. A guy in my class was on the receiving end of a heel hook and got his acl popped. The guy that did it came from a school that worked those alot, and my friend didn't tap in time. I've seen a collarbone broken in a judo tourney, a bicep torn, arms popped (mine was one of them - wasn't broken, but tore some stuff). I popped someones knee with a throw in a judo tourney - he tried to fight the throw, and when he did, I extended his leg, but did it at the knee - it popped as I threw him. When dealing with such dangerous techniques at a high speed, accidents happen.

[MasterKiller]

If someone bit my finger off, I think I would kill them on principle alone.

[Ben Gash]

You don't have much experience of trauma. Shock, pain and primordial defence mechanisms will effectively take the fight out of you. Not to mention it'll be d*mn hard for you to fight with a freshly amputated finger.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
You don't have much experience of trauma. Shock, pain and primordial defence mechanisms will effectively take the fight out of you. Not to mention it'll be d*mn hard for you to fight with a freshly amputated finger. People fight hurt all the time. You can overcome the pain and the shock to finish the job if you are hell bent on it, and I think having my finger bit off would stiffen my resolve.

I might react one way, or I might react another. Guess we won't know until someone bites my finger off.

[Ben Gash]

:D

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
People fight hurt all the time. You can overcome the pain and the shock to finish the job if you are hell bent on it, and I think having my finger bit off would stiffen my resolve.

I might react one way, or I might react another. Guess we won't know until someone bites my finger off.

Let me say from experience that you can in fact continue fighting. And yes, you are mighty ****ed off about the whole thing.

[SifuX-HSK]

ground fighting is a very important thing to know.

as someone said, not all fights go to the floor but 8 out of 10 will.

if anyone of you have been in a real battle you know it will go to the floor. you may get put in a head lokc and flipped onto the ground, or you may get rushed by your opponent, and if he happens to get a hold on you it is definetly going to the floor.

have any of you heard the street terminology of getting "dipped"?

it means that if whoever you're fighting gets a hold of your body you are going to be slammed to the ground, and thats where it starts.

i have rarely ever seen a standing fight end in a standing position. they usually end with someone giving up, getting knocked out or even killed. i am a stand up figther because of my martial arts. but all through my growing up in the mean streets of san francisco's mission district (16th and mission) i got into at least one fight everyday. and it always ends up on the floor.

so don't think anyone here is invulnerable, because even the smallest person can get a big dude on the floor.

groundfighting is a very important part of street survival and i believe if any one says differently has never really had their ass kicked before.

sifu X

[Fu-Pow]

Wow you got in fight every day! You must not have any teef left!!:rolleyes: