San Shou guys...

[SevenStar]

....suck arse.




Nah, seriously, what are your favorite throws/takedowns, and how do you set them up?

[Suntzu]

shoulder throw.... altho i never got it in competition... and everybody at the gym has gotten wise to it...... i usually try to control an arm in the clinch and turn.....

hip throw...... luckily san shou guys like to clinch so its normally who gets who first with that one....

kick catch sweep.... they kick.. i catch... i sweep...

i don't know a name for it.... but get a head lock... grab the leg with the other arm and go backwards and roll to the top.... thanks to Jose for "teaching me that one :D....

and other throws "just happen"......

[Musicalkatachmp]

When we are in close I like to wrap my arms around the guys body, under his arms, pull him close to me (this is great fun!), and lean forward, thus bending him backward...if he still doesn't go down I will try to use my legs to help by tripping him in this way: I will wrap my right leg around his left leg or my left leg around his right leg...I don't know what the name of the technique is called but this wrestler dude showed it to me...I have more success with it than the hip throws or shooting b/c more people have seen those...

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Musicalkatachmp
When we are in close I like to wrap my arms around the guys body, under his arms, pull him close to me (this is great fun!), and lean forward, thus bending him backward...if he still doesn't go down I will try to use my legs to help by tripping him in this way: I will wrap my right leg around his left leg or my left leg around his right leg...I don't know what the name of the technique is called but this wrestler dude showed it to me...I have more success with it than the hip throws or shooting b/c more people have seen those...

Sounds like a grapevine, cept I know it of a bodylock instead of double underhooks.

Double unders lift up and sweep the leg, Johnny!

[Pork Chop]

If I tell yah, then everyone will know. :D
I can catch kicks alright, still have problems with the conversion.
I personally like pickups & wrestling takedowns more than anything- double, single, hi krawtch, firemans.
The main thing i picked up in Judo was Ogoshi and I wanna be able to convert it consistantly before I really move on.
Picked up some reaping technique and the concept of kuzushi as well; both of which I see having a huge impact on my game and giving me something to refine for a while.
Kinda like the idea of going to judo for a month, pick up some new stuff, try to get it to work in san shou for a while before going back for more.

[Musicalkatachmp]

Sounds like a grapevine, cept I know it of a bodylock instead of double underhooks.

Yeah I think I use a body-lock too, is that like a bearhug under his arms?...just not familiar with all this technical jargon...you MMA guys like to come up with fancy complicated names to make simple techs sound cool...

[Water Dragon]

To me, a body lock is when you cross your gloves and press into the small of the back. What do ya mean MMA guy? I'm not a MMA guy, I'm a SC, BJJ, Muay Thai, Kun Tao guy.

[Pork Chop]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I'm not a MMA guy, I'm a SC, BJJ, Muay Thai, Kun Tao guy.

LOL

[Musicalkatachmp]

OK yeah then in that case I use the body-lock, I just didn't know what it was called...

OK sorry,
you SC, BJJ, Muay Thai, and Kun Tao guys like to make up fancy, cool-sounding names...at my kung fu school, when I say "9 dragons at sea" everyone, even the new guys, know exactly what I mean...

[SevenStar]

using the hip toss example, since you have gloves on, are you overhooking his arm, or are you opening your gloves far enough to pull his arm when you off balance him?

[Meat Shake]

For jacket wrestling weve been playing with a variation of cracking, and bowing.

My bread and butter are definately neck surrounding and shaving.

Neck surrounding is a headlock throw... Dont know the name in judo.

Shaving would be similar to Ko Soto Gari I guess... I use my forearm to drive the neck hard and check the kidney area with my other hand though.

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by SevenStar
using the hip toss example, since you have gloves on, are you overhooking his arm, or are you opening your gloves far enough to pull his arm when you off balance him? controlling and pulling his arm with the glove or the crease betwwen your wrist and palm(if that makes sense)..... but FWICT its more for controlling than pulling.... most of my pulling energy seem to be from me pulling his body/head during the throw.... but i could be doing it "wrong".....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Neck surrounding is a headlock throw... Dont know the name in judo.


koshi guruma

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Suntzu
controlling and pulling his arm with the glove or the crease betwwen your wrist and palm(if that makes sense)..... but FWICT its more for controlling than pulling.... most of my pulling energy seem to be from me pulling his body/head during the throw.... but i could be doing it "wrong".....

the pulling of the arm and lapel/body is from ajudo standpoint. It may be wrong in sanshou, which is the purpose of this thread.

[Liokault]

Because I'm quite short for my weight class (but no so's you would notice) I like step up raise hands. For the non tai chi guys that thats like shooting for a double leg take down, but instead of just dumping them down they are throwen straight up and behind you.

In some of my fights I have got this off 5-6 times per round, but people are getting smarter now and its much harder to get on.

[Pork Chop]

suntzu- thot u had an overhook, tying up the one arm though?

[Nick Forrer]

Technically i'm a WC guy so i dont know if its verboten to post on this thread but just to add to the mix

1) Take his right arm arm (say) underneath the elbow with my left arm and push it up and across his body while, at the same time, snaking underneath with my right arm and pushing up on his chin with it. These two actions together will take him off balance at which point I sweep his right leg out from the outside with my right leg (I forget what this sweep is called in Judo).

2) Grab his right arm (say) with both hands- one at the elbow and one at the wrist and yank him down and to my right and then use my right leg to sweep out his right leg from the inside this time i.e. like a trip.

erm.. haven't explained these very well but hopefully you get the picture

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
(I forget what this sweep is called in Judo).

o soto gari.

2) Grab his right arm (say) with both hands- one at the elbow and one at the wrist and yank him down and to my right and then use my right leg to sweep out his right leg from the inside this time i.e. like a trip.

erm.. haven't explained these very well but hopefully you get the picture

When you snap him down, you are pulling all of his weight on his foot, correct? why would you try to sweep him when all of his weight is now on his foot?

[Toby]

I like variations on those too, Nick (fellow WCer ;)). In 1), I was also taught a nice variation. Setup e.g. the same, control the neck or chin with the right (like you did), then take the left and apply pressure to their face. Best position is with the left palm across their nose and eyes, with your fingertips towards their left ear. Controlling the head means you don't need to sweep. Just tweak the neck backwards hard (careful though) and down they go. I tried it against a 30lb larger semi-resisting opponent and took him down repeatedly with ease (after he almost broke my neck with it several times :p). From start to finish you need smooth movement and forward intent, otherwise when you let go of their right arm to palm the face they could fit in a right elbow to your head. I guess if the opponent was expecting it and had a particularly strong neck it might not work as well. Dunno.

In 2), we do similar but without a sweep. We do a kick to the right knee. If you get it right, it locks their knee back (leg straight) and their upper body comes down horizontal for a follow up. Otherwise, with no kick, if you get the lock right you can control them by continuing to rotate your body as they come towards you. Keeps their body away from yours and it gives you a chance to let go (with a push) whenever you like to "throw" them away from you anywhere in 360 degrees. That does no damage but gives you a chance to get away e.g. the application we most talk about would be when they were between you and the door and you just want to get out of there. Works best with a twist of the elbow and wrist as you pull to turn their upper body down and away from you. Their arm must be locked straight or it doesn't work.

[Nick Forrer]

'When you snap him down, you are pulling all of his weight on his foot, correct? why would you try to sweep him when all of his weight is now on his foot?'

Because if all his weight is on his foot, if you take that foot out he won't have a leg to stand on:D Seriously its all done in one transitory motion- in fact his weight won't be so much on that foot as slightly over it if you do it right (like Kusushi (sp?) in Judo) and the trip just helps him on his way. Actually I should say its not so much a trip- rather it involves hooking your foot around his instep and really pushing it across/sliding it out from underneath him.

Toby- Yes I do 2) with a kick too but if you dont want to break their knee this is an alternative. Also the throw you mentioned works well if when you turn round you place your left leg across their path of motion so they go right over it.

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
suntzu- thot u had an overhook, tying up the one arm though? that too....

[ShaolinTiger00]

Seven Star. At least you’ll be able to understand my throwing language (judo & wrestling).

Set up for throws.. tricky subject because there are so many options. I’ll just comment on one aspect that I’m certain you are familiar with. – throws from a clinch.

Assuming you are clinched first you have to get a better clinch (hmm positional dominance. Where have we seen this logic before?) and keep uke controlled. Kuzushi is going to be different than judo but it adapts well with practice. Sans the gi, you’re not going to have the amount of circular or curved pull. Instead it’s going to be more linear and you’ll need to create angles with your body during tsukuri. Best example I can think of would be a sasae of hiza. You’d get an over under on him, keeping him chest to chest and really snapping to his side while you block the ankle/knee instead of the twisting pull in judo.

Throwing is a big part of sanshou but don’t get throw-obsessed because you’ll start “reaching” for the clinch and become open to strikes of opporitunity. Let the clinch happen. But remember to strike into and out of it as well.

Body hooks.. if you’re going to try more technical throws you’ll need to work on swimming thru the clinch to get them and acting with speed. It’s not judo. – 5 seconds max. (with a good ref.)

My current favorite? Parry the jab across and slam him with body contact (left shoulder over his and around his neck (kinda like koshi guruma but not across hip) with right arm I grab his left thigh in an overhook and now stand him up tall. My left leg comes thru and reaps his right leg out ala ouchi gari.

Boom.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Seven Star. At least you’ll be able to understand my throwing Throwing is a big part of sanshou but don’t get throw-obsessed because you’ll start “reaching” for the clinch and become open to strikes of opporitunity. Let the clinch happen. But remember to strike into and out of it as well.


*rubs jaw, nods in agreement*

[SevenStar]

yeah, I'm guilty of that one, trying reach so I can fire off some knees.

I like that second one, ST - sounds similar to a counter I do against a ko uchi gari.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Seriously its all done in one transitory motion- in fact his weight won't be so much on that foot as slightly over it if you do it right (like Kusushi (sp?) in Judo) and the trip just helps him on his way. Actually I should say its not so much a trip- rather it involves hooking your foot around his instep and really pushing it across/sliding it out from underneath him.

crystal clear now.