Grappling, and ground fighting ?'s

[Gangsterfist]

Any of you ground fighters want to answer a few questions for me? How do you guys and gals feel about micro movements? Like constantly moving your body in micro movements to get out of a submission position. For example, I have found myself on the ground face down in an armbar. With my opponet's knee right on my tricept (and it freaking hurts). I just do a shrimping like move towards him and it takes my arm out of the arm bar. It was a small micro movement. This can be applied all over the place on the ground in many different type of situations, where you just make small movements to make your opponet work for their position.

Now, for my second question. How many of you practice position before submission? Do you always try to get in a better posistion before you apply your submission, or do you just go for the submission. Obviously there are pros and cons on each side, and I am just curious how you ground fighters practice.

Now, for my third question. This is for all of you grapplers who have fought good stand up fighters. If you are fighting a good stand up fighter who has very good basic knowledge and training of ground fighting do you find it a lot harder to win? Like they know, understand, and can apply concepts like: shrimping, triangling out of chokes, alligator crawls, going for the thumb, and other anti-chin na type techniques. If they have a very well rounded basic knowledge and basic ability of ground fighting do you really struggle to win? Also, does it make you improve or adapt your stand up?

Recently in the last few months we have had some students from another school (a friend of my sifu's) come train with us. They are bagua, hsing-i, and judo practitioners (that is what their school teaches). So I have had a way different experience lately not being used to sparring these fighers. I have found that micro movements make them work for their positions on the ground and sometimes buy me enough time to get out of it, or put myself in a better position on the ground.

Lets try to keep the topic more based towards sparring. In real street fight type stuff a lot of things will obviously be different. A submission would be a break, multiple attackers are a possibility, there might be more drastic moves exectued, and so forth. So there are a lot of factors in a street fight, and I don't want this topic to be one of those arguments.

[David Jamieson]

Is this a grapple forum now?

when did that happen?

it's like going to church and finding out it has become just one long rendition of Hollywood Babylon followed by free screeings of Outrageous and having to watch the clip of Divine eat the poodle poo over and over and over again.

You can fin out more about grappling and watch Free Grappling Videos Here With All Sorts of Micro Movements (http://www.matbattle.com)

That is all

[red5angel]

I like to not look at this forum narrow mindedly there KL and think of it as a martial arts forum with a heavy kungfu bent. Lord knows there are plenty of kungfu guys trolling or just cruising other not CMA forums as well. get over it.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Is this a grapple forum now?

when did that happen?

it's like going to church and finding out it has become just one long rendition of Hollywood Babylon followed by free screeings of Outrageous and having to watch the clip of Divine eat the poodle poo over and over and over again.

You can fin out more about grappling and watch Free Grappling Videos Here With All Sorts of Micro Movements (http://www.matbattle.com)

That is all

Hey, you didn't have to read this thread, I think I posed some honest questions. I am not trolling.

However, thanks for the link. I will watch it when I get home from work.

[red5angel]

gangsterfist - kung lek just has trouble believing anyone in their right mind would actually address ground fighting since he is full of deadly techniques and training to "not go to the ground".

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
How do you guys and gals feel about micro movements? Like constantly moving your body in micro movements to get out of a submission position. For example, I have found myself on the ground face down in an armbar. With my opponet's knee right on my tricept (and it freaking hurts). I just do a shrimping like move towards him and it takes my arm out of the arm bar. It was a small micro movement. This can be applied all over the place on the ground in many different type of situations, where you just make small movements to make your opponet work for their position.

grappling is all about those small movements. small movements and sensitivity.

Now, for my second question. How many of you practice position before submission? Do you always try to get in a better posistion before you apply your submission, or do you just go for the submission. Obviously there are pros and cons on each side, and I am just curious how you ground fighters practice.

position before submission is rule number 1 of grappling. Not practicing it has more pros than cons when you are fighting an experienced grappler.

Now, for my third question. This is for all of you grapplers who have fought good stand up fighters. If you are fighting a good stand up fighter who has very good basic knowledge and training of ground fighting do you find it a lot harder to win? Like they know, understand, and can apply concepts like: shrimping, triangling out of chokes, alligator crawls, going for the thumb, and other anti-chin na type techniques. If they have a very well rounded basic knowledge and basic ability of ground fighting do you really struggle to win? Also, does it make you improve or adapt your stand up?

is it harder to win on the ground? No. If I have more knowledge than them, I'll tool them. If they are knowledgable of takedowns though, it will be harder to get them on the ground. Going for the thumb doesn't really apply in bjj - I don't use a closed hand - I use a monkey grip. Also, I will completely wrap the limb. For example, If I want to arm bar you, depending on my position, I am going to control your arm by pulling it in tight to me and wrapping my ARM, not my hand, around your elbow. I will grab my own gi with that hand.

Recently in the last few months we have had some students from another school (a friend of my sifu's) come train with us. They are bagua, hsing-i, and judo practitioners (that is what their school teaches). So I have had a way different experience lately not being used to sparring these fighers. I have found that micro movements make them work for their positions on the ground and sometimes buy me enough time to get out of it, or put myself in a better position on the ground.


you should really go find some bjj guys ot experiment your ground stuff on. Judo typically doesn't have as big of a ground focus. I can pretty much 0wn everyone in my judo class, but in bjj, I get killed.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by red5angel
gangsterfist - kung lek just has trouble believing anyone in their right mind would actually address ground fighting since he is full of deadly techniques and training to "not go to the ground".

Plus, he is still dealing with a lot of trauma from his HS days.

[David Jamieson]

seriously, you guys can post all your manlove questions at the link i posted.

you could probably find dates there too and get into some real crotch sniffing fun like you want to.

you could also use the ora forum i guess.

but this is a Kungfu forum not a basement rage tape center or grapple forum, there's all kinds of places like that for you out there.

I'd rather hear about the styles in thw wuxia novels, or about the styles that came west and what they consist of and their training regimens.

the grappling stuff is really boring. Have you ever watched one of those dry hump videos?

Now, even WWe has some stuff that is less boring than amateur grapplers. BUt you wrestle boys are just polluting the place with your constant nancying about how important your nut nuzzling abilities are to martial arts.

give it up already :rolleyes:

lol

[SevenStar]

we get all the crotch sniffing we want from your woman...

If you don't like the grappling threads, move them. You're a - oops, my bad...

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
seriously, you guys can post all your manlove questions at the link i posted.

you could probably find dates there too and get into some real crotch sniffing fun like you want to.

the grappling stuff is really boring. Have you ever watched one of those dry hump videos?



You sure are obsessed with your 'lifestyle' choices, miss. I have no doubt that you have all sorts of videos ya sick-o. You are all ready out of the closet, don't make a spectacle of yourself.

[Gangsterfist]

Thanks for the replies,'

When I said go for the thumb, I wasn't assuming someone had gripped me with their thumb. You can also turn towards the thumb even if they are using a monkey grip. That is the weak point of the chin na. We train to use a monkey grip, and use your opponets clothing as well.

The only guy I knew who trained BJJ moved, or I haven't seen him around town for a while. Some of my brothers have wrestling and jiujitsu training (not brazilian though). They are hard to beat on the ground. I am sure there are several schools in my area that teach bjj, I just don't have the time to go politely ask to spar them. Not to mention they will probably want me to join, and I don't have the time to do that now. I work full time and train kung fu 18 hours a week (I have 18 to 20 hours of kung fu class a week).

When I mean position before submission, do you always do it. Sometimes I see people who are like fish out of water and slippery and constantly moving, so its nearly impossible to get into a superior position and you just have to go for the submission.

Like one example of what recently happend is I was in my opponets guard. He was squeezing real tight so I elbowed his quads pretty hard. This didn't work because he could take the pain. I eventually, with micro movements, gained enough position to roll it over into what the WWE (or WWF or whatever its called now) calls the boston crab. I then moved to his side wrapping one leg under and one leg over one of his legs and proceeded to choke him out with my arms. So I had a joint lock on his leg and was choking him. I have never really trained this technique but it just came to me by feeling out the situation.

What I meant by harder to win, was if they have a good basic knowledge of getting out of ground fighting (ie shrimping, all that jazz, etc) and are good at it do you find it a lot harder? I am not the most proficient ground fighter but have found myself many times getting out of those situations (even in real fights when I have been tackled from my blind side been mounted) just by doing some basic things and then I am back on my feet. Obviously if you are better than them on the ground and can keep them on the ground you will have the upper hand.

[David Jamieson]

If you don't like the grappling threads, move them. You're a - oops, my bad...

LOL

you know i used to kick this stuff to the curb, or at least over to the "Other Related Arts" (a fitting forum name btw)

the problem with grapple threads is that most of the people tha post the questions already have the answers as shown in this thread here.

so are they really asking questions? or just being in a state of mentally arrested development.

Man, Bruce Lee VS anyone threads are less dull than this crap.

[Gangsterfist]

Well, Kung Lek, I train Kung Fu and not ground fighting. Recently I have been sparring another school who has ground fighting. I am trying to discuss basic techniques from a kung fu practitioner's POV vs a grappler.

When you hit the ground (and sometimes you cannot avoid it) you better know how to handle yourself or you will get beat.

[David Jamieson]

uh, did you even read your original post when you had finished typing it out gangsterfist???

LOL

dude, your whole point about struggling with others is the guys who have Bagua/Xingyi/Judo guys.

wtf???

and even that comes afterthree paragraphs of your self advice about your musings on mini bucking, shrimping, micro movements, etc etc.

Are you sure you're in a "Kungfu" school? lol

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
When I said go for the thumb, I wasn't assuming someone had gripped me with their thumb. You can also turn towards the thumb even if they are using a monkey grip. That is the weak point of the chin na. We train to use a monkey grip, and use your opponets clothing as well.

Off hand, I can't think of a submission where that would apply, other than an americana, and even when I do that, your arm is trapped, so breaking my grip at that gap isn't doing a whole loet of goos - I just trap it again. grappling is like anything else - you don't chase the limbs. I have control before I go for anything. chin na is kinda the opposite.


When I mean position before submission, do you always do it.

yes.

Sometimes I see people who are like fish out of water and slippery and constantly moving, so its nearly impossible to get into a superior position and you just have to go for the submission.

that's exactly why you control them. you have to be able to transition well, sometimes. If I have you in kesa katame and you are starting to work out of it, I transition to another pin, then to another, if necessary. if you go for a sub without having position, you may not only lose the sub, but also end up in a worse position. A good example is the armbar from mount. if you start leaning back into the sub before you have them controlled, they will sit up into you, and possibly pass your legs, into sidemount.

Like one example of what recently happend is I was in my opponets guard. He was squeezing real tight so I elbowed his quads pretty hard. This didn't work because he could take the pain. I eventually, with micro movements, gained enough position to roll it over into what the WWE (or WWF or whatever its called now) calls the boston crab. I then moved to his side wrapping one leg under and one leg over one of his legs and proceeded to choke him out with my arms. So I had a joint lock on his leg and was choking him. I have never really trained this technique but it just came to me by feeling out the situation.

Once again, experience matters. you won't get a boston crab on an experienced grappler. use your micro movements to set up your proper guard pass.

What I meant by harder to win, was if they have a good basic knowledge of getting out of ground fighting (ie shrimping, all that jazz, etc) and are good at it do you find it a lot harder?

no, not drastically, unless they have my experience level or higher. BJJ is funny like that. you will tool all new guys that have no grappling experience. Those close to your level will give you a run, and those considerably above you will tool you.

[Gangsterfist]

kung Lek,

Yes, I am sure I train in a Kung Fu school. Idealy we train to not go to the ground, however most people realize that you cannot always control that. Therefore we do from time to time train ground fighting, grappling, chin na, etc. I train wing chun, which is very anti-ground fighting, and emphasizes not going to the ground.

However, me and you obviously have different goals. My goal is to be a well rounded martial artist with at the very least some basic knowledge in most aspects of fighting. So, yes I do train things outside of kung fu. I try to experience things outside of my normal training to get a feel for it. If your goal is not that, I can respect that. If you choose not to train those aspects, that is totally your choice.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
If you don't like the grappling threads, move them. You're a - oops, my bad...

I love the smell of pwnage in the morning.

[Merryprankster]

Sometimes I see people who are like fish out of water and slippery and constantly moving, so its nearly impossible to get into a superior position and you just have to go for the submission.

g-fist,

the definition of superior significantly changes as you get better. i may not settle completely into a position before going for something. the reason for this is that as you improve and the level of your competitors improves, you never have the opportunity to get set. you learn what leads to what and how.

roy harris talks about it in terms of you have to move off of being 1% better off than your opposition. my experience has led me to believe this is true. control and positional dominance isn't in the position - it's in the transition. most experienced white belts who take your back can stay there pretty well...but they can't get there on a purple belt because they can't dominate the transitions.

to use a stand-up grappling example, jimmy pedro's throws in judo are world class, but aren't the very best...but his gripping - which is the transition into the throw along with balance disruption, is tops. people can't throw him because they can't get hold of him and are constantly out of position to attack.

to answer your questions:

1. 7star is correct. you want sensitivity, grapple. nothing teaches it better.
2. see above for my take.
3. 7star is again correct. if you have a weak ground game, i'm concerned with your takedown defense and your ability to get back up.

also, 7star is correct that chances are very low you'll hit the boston crab on somebody moderately experienced, ever.

[David Jamieson]

My goal is to be a well rounded martial artist with at the very least some basic knowledge in most aspects of fighting.

is your objective competitive wrestling or kungfu?

[Gangsterfist]

I prefer to stand on my own two feet if that is what you are asking kung lek. I train ground fighting because sometimes you go the ground. Right now I am emphasizing on gaining superior position so I can either get back on my feet or continue to ground fight. I have sparred some grapplers here and there over the last year or so never felt that I could not get out of a certain situation. I tapped out on occasion, but after looking back and analyzing what I did, I realized that I could have acted upon the situation and at one point put myself in the superior position instead of getting joint locked or choked out.

For example, one time while in kung fu class I was sparring one of my senior brothers. I can't remember exactly what I did, but he kicked at me and I either angle stepped or just plain kicked under his kick. Hit his posted leg and took him down. He immediately grabbed my arms and took me with him. It happened extremly fast because I actually got a good kick off. Next thing you know I am on the ground and he is right on top of me (this is one of my bro's who has trained various grappling arts in the past and has a good basic knowledge of it) getting into position. I shrimped, but he knew that game and stuck right with me. I eventually went into the guard and tried my strategy from there. He broke my guard, hit me in the groin, and choked me out. So fights can go to the ground even if you get off some good stand up moves and your stand up is good. That is why I, every now and again stop my kung fu training, and train other aspects so at least I know some basics when put into that position. Believe me or not, it has helped my fighting all round. Now, people have a harder time than before when I'm on the ground.

[Gangsterfist]

Also,

Thanks to MerryPrankster and SevenStar for giving real answers. I appreciate the info.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
How do you guys and gals feel about micro movements?

How many of you practice position before submission?

Like they know, understand, and can apply concepts like: shrimping, triangling out of chokes, alligator crawls, going for the thumb, and other anti-chin na type techniques. Micro movements are usually used for improving your position or helping you to get out of an inferior position. You usually don't want to be using them to get out of a submission, however. Doing that in training or when competing can get your arm or leg broken.

Almost anytime you go for a submission, you risk losing your position, so this isn't the main reason for position before submission.. The main reasons are that a superior position allows for greater control of your opponent, gives you more opportunities for a wider variety of submissions, and allows you to throw effective punches.

What are "...triangling out of chokes, alligator crawls, going for the thumb.."?

[Gangsterfist]

I am sure lots of different schools call this stuff differently, but this is how I was taught.

Alligator crawls - When you are on your stomach and your opponet is trying to mount you, or is going for your legs or whatever. Use your arms to reach out across the ground and help pull you forward; like an alligator.

Triangling out of chokes - This works well for head locks, and when people are choking you from behind, while standing or on your knees. You slightly drop your weight and step away with one foot, and then step right back towards your opponet at an angle (making a triangle type shape). This one can be used along with going towrds the thumb.

Going towards the thumb - The weakest point of chin na is towards the thumb. Now, obviously this can also be seen as when someone has a full grip on you (their hand is locked around your arm, etc) and you use that to make them chin na themselves. Also it can be seen moving towards the thumb. If someone has you in a choke hold from behind you want to move towrds its weakest point to get out. Move your body towards the side where their thumb is. I guess that is the best way I can explain that one. It basically just means go for the weakest point when trying to get out of submissions. I am sure it might be called something else where you train.

I do not formally train any ground fighting style right now, but have some limited experience in: Akido, Judo, wrestling, and juijitsu (not brazilian). I prefer to stay on my own two feet and not play the grappler's game. To be good at that I train how to get out of grappling situations.

[SevenStar]

The alligator crawl will be too slow. If you are on your stomach and he has not yet mounted you, you want to lunge forward so you can get distance on him quickly. If he's at an angle, granby roll and get him back in your guard.

[Gangsterfist]

Whats a granby roll? I know scissoring from kung fu, which also could be done while on your stomach.

[SevenStar]

kinda hard to explain in writing, but it's almost like a normal forward shoulder roll, only instead of rolling over your shoulder and tus, forward, you are rolling along the length of your shoulders, in a circle, which will rotate you 180 degrees. I'll look for some pics. but, in a nutshell, you are kinda circling and rolling back into him, as opposed to rolling away. The result will be that you are on your back with your legs facing him, so that you may attempt to put him in your guard.

[Gangsterfist]

Gotcha, I think I got the jest of it. It may have a few things similar to scissoring. Scissoring is like that break dance move you see some people do while dancing. On your back or on your stomach in can work. If on your stomach you roll on your back while doing it. A lot of times you will see it in movies where the kung fu guy circles both his legs in alternate motions lifting himself up off the ground. You can really do that, but in real life with out the movie cables pulling you up, you gotta roll up off the shoulders.