Handling Hook Punches or Wild Punches

[brody]

Can anyone share some insight on how they handle hook punches or wild punches. Suppose you were squared off with your opponent and he takes a wild punch or hook punch to your head; how would you handle it? Wing Chun teaches to attack the centerline. However, if the attack is coming from outside the centerline and you go straight in , changes are you will get hit because you haven't actually made contact or deflected the attack. Any help would help.

Thanks.

[Gangsterfist]

Straight line beats a circle. Just blast their center with chain punches their hook or wild swing will be made ineffective.

A good wing chun punch does not strike the surface of your opponet. It strikes through your opponet. You vertical punch someone right in the mouth/chin area and push the punch through. Their head jerks back and throws their punch off, and if it does hit you it will have very little or no power behind it. Their spine would be bent and their structure compromised. You should then take that opportunity to end the fight.

[Whiplash]

My friends and I try this occasionally and I've found that using biu sau by itself or using it and moving into a turning lop sau helps with those kinds of attacks.

I've tried using tan sau and turning with those but I find that to be 50/50 as to whether or not i get hit :/ Probably just my technique :D

[Ernie]

dude
make life simple move out of range and attack as it passes , foot work footwork footwork

i have tried all the traditional answers and against a boxer or a very un crispy person with awkward timing you will eat the hook even if you '' take center ''

if you try and intecept the limb you just chasing hands

let it pass hit em while there blind :)

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah sometimes you might eat the hook if you blast the center, but if you time it right and use the right amount of force their hook should not hurt you one bit. I know this because I have used it in real street situation before. This guy threw a huge hook at me and I just vertical punched him right in the nose. His hook fell short and hit my arm. And it had no power.

So, there are tons of answers to this type of attack. You just gotta find out whats good for you. If you want to simeltanious attack/defend and biu da (biu sao + punch) will also work. I have used that in sparring before. Just make sure you biu on the inside of your opponet, then next make sure you blast them good and put them down.

taan saos won't really work against hooks.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You can definitely stay on the inside (and should stay on the inside) to deal with wild hooks (if you try to back out you're giving him the opportunity to follow with something else or adjust to your counter after his first punch passed you by)....


Stay inside with a shortened version of bil/lop...sometimes even two hands can be used simultaneously as a bil/lop without worry because he "committed" with such a wild haymaker...

tan doesn't work in this situation...they'll break right through and/or around it.

[brody]

I'm not sure I understand how to apply a Biu Sao in this situtation. Wouldn't a straight punch be more appropriate? Since the distance is the same and you are just closing the gap while striking.

I've practiced stepping in and going down the center, but if your footwork is really slow or your opponent is exceptionally fast you can still get a little knock from the punch.

I agree, a Tan Sao and punch is worthless. I've been told to hit or block the shadow using a Tan Sao of Fuk Sao. And in this case, the shadow would be the oppoents attacking inside (other side of elbow). But the fact is, even though you block the shadow the risk of the arm still reaching you is great.

I've experimented with side stepping and even taking a step back to first avoid the punch, then stepping in. The problem with that was I usually stepped into another punch from the opponents other hand.

[kj]

Tight hooks can be extremely challenging to deal with. IME, sometimes disrupting the source of power takes enough steam out of it, e.g., the shoulder area of the opponent's attacking arm. Unfortunately, there are no single 100% solutions.

Wildness is often easier to deal with by affording more openings to exploit or errors to utilize. When the opponent’s wildness involves big movements, the more time on your side (by virtue of composure and having more compact, direct and efficient movements).

Regards,
- kj

[Gangsterfist]

There are many different kinds of hooks. A boxer's hook, wild hooks, scrapping hooks, upper cut hooks, low body hooks (like the ginger fist motion in biu jee) and so on. Each hook probably has many different answers as KJ put it.

To apply the biu sao, or biu + lop + da against the hook is simple. Lets say and hook is coming in on your left side. Shoot your biu sao out there (from your left arm) but not towards his center, more towards the hook, on the inside. Once it makes contact lop it straight down. This will pull the attackers body down, right when that happens, punch them right in the face. Its not quite strict wing chun when referring to the centerline theory, but it is still none the less wing chun. Of course there are many ways to apply this. That is just one example. I would follow the principle that says, "Upon loss of contact, rush in." Which would apply here since there are no bridges established yet. This also means you get the first hit in, which a lot of times determines who wins the fight.

[KenWingJitsu]

Ernie's answer is by far the most correct. Though you "can" sometimes catch it with a 'bil-sao', you are gambling. make sure to have a good chin, and re-read what Ernie wrote.

[brody]

Gangsterfist,

Thanks for your explanation on what is meant by Biu Sao + Lap Sao. I now see that your Biu Sao is slightly altered to receive the incoming strike. I was taught to use an altered Fuk Sao to intercept the strike at the inside of the elbow and straight punching with the other hand at the same time. All while stepping in to close off any other outside circular attacks.

Thanks.

[Gangsterfist]

I agree with KWJ and Ernie. My first choice of answers to a hook is foot work and chain punch. If the hook is coming in fom the right, angle step left and blast their face. Their hook will never cross over that far and hit you. Now, defending against an educated hook, is a different story.

[Ernie]

make distance your friend and his enemy

if you control distance then what ever tool he uses doesn't really matter


the big but is if your footwork is not developed or to robotic in pattern you won't be able to move in on the half beat as the shot passes and split the action

or you could just gamble and rush in:)
but i like my head were it is at :D

[anerlich]

Straight line beats a circle.

And as any half decent boxer knows, a circle can beat a straight line. Think otherwise at your peril.

Bil sao *will* work against a wide swinging hook. A solidly built naysayer once told William Cheung he didn't think it would. GM Cheung's response: "Try it".

He did, very hard. Gm Cheung stopped it, though he was rocked a little. He said something like, "Oh, OK. Try again."

The guy did, and this time broke his forearm on the Bil Sao. GM Cheung was undamaged.

For shorter hooks, I prefer boxing style defense. Or, as Ernie says, not being there.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I like the manifestations of Wing Chun presented so far.

Personally, I've had success with intercepting hooks at the inside of the elbow with the mirror hand while striking with the other.
If you can follow it up with a twist and sink to the arm and a grab and twist/sink to whatever your punching hand finds after punching, then you have yourself a mighty fine pretzel, restrained and fit for kneeing, kicking, or crushing if necessary. Otherwise, or if they get out, chain punching is fine.

Chain punching in any situation is a harm reduction technique. It minimizes harm while maximizing time and opportunity. In and of itself, it's effective psychological warfare, but physically it's rather defendable, often to simply a stalemate. However, it's a great platform from which to be more tactically specific, since your opponent is busy defending against a barrage of punches and is probably not picking targets on you. You can pick targets, though, because you're on the offensive.

[russellsherry]

hi guys earnie , is right footwork is the key get in close, use you staight punch as the bloak and hit him first mumber one rule when dealing with hook punches don"t let him hit you you hit him , peace russellsherry

[Ultimatewingchun]

Gangsterfist:


You wre doing beautifully until you said "it's not quite wing chun when referring to the centerline theory".

Well...in TWC this is definitely wing chun centerline theory...we face the centerline to the point-of-contact at the block (lop) - on his arm - while striking back back on what is called the central line... the other hand strikes back toward his head/face area on a point coming from the shoulder line...so to speak.

And when moving toward the side where the punch is coming from with a sidestep type of footwork - it works really well against all types of hooks...tight/wide/wild...whatever.

Unbalancing the puncher is also a major fringe benefit of this type of movement.

[TjD]

i've eaten a lot of tight hooks in chi sau. you just don't see em coming :) if you're lucky enough to have a feeling ones coming, i like to raise elbow and take it on the inside of my arm, or catch it with a bong sau. easier said than done.

biu sau is useless. you're in too tight and usually have an arm tied up. no way in heck you'll be able to come remotely close to throwing something like a biu or tan sau to deal with it. you have to use the close range elbow arms.

wild punches are a bit easier. get inside the arm and cover with fook or biu while charging in and disrupt their stance to dull the punches strength. escort it away from you while you pound them.

[Gangsterfist]

Victor,

I see your point. I agree with you, but my first thought would be retain what comes in, and send it on its way when it leaves. Your biu sao can be on your centerline still, and on your opponets by body rotation and footwork. However, whenever I run into this while sparring I can never usually pull it off beautifully perfect, so it usually goes a bit off center, and not directly towards my opponets center. Still maintaining my center\structure though.

Perhaps its the taiji training in me that angle steps the opposite side and uses that off balanceness against my opponet. If your opponet is extended on their left side, then their right side is weak.


TjD says:

...biu sau is useless. you're in too tight and usually have an arm tied up. no way in heck you'll be able to come remotely close to throwing something like a biu or tan sau to deal with it. you have to use the close range elbow arms...

Not entirely true. With a tight hook in trapping range you can use foot work and biu sao the outside of the hook and lop it down. Or you could biu it on the outside and as soon as the hook reaches past your elbow, drop it and tak sao your opponet. However, stepping to the weak side and punching is probably one of the best answers IMHO.

[couch]

Footwork is Key.

Attacker is in throwing lead right round.

Defender is in a right side neutral stance.

When the punch is read via the elbow, step left toward the attack and throw out a tan sao and punch. The large step is key to catch the punch before it reaches full power.

If the punch is way too powerful when using a left tan or right pak sao (we push our pak sao out ****her), help the energy along with another pak sao - (left pak) along the elbow - to trap. Stepping is key. T-step changes your center and moves you out of range.

If the punch is too much using a left bil sao, huen sao the punch (let the energy go at the bil sao), STEP, cheun sao to trap, etc.

Right bon sao/with wu sao can be turned - more like pushed) to a right bil sao (with a small STEP) to trap the lead punch's elbow.

Stepping is key, I believe. Hope I didn't write out a bunch of gibberish!

Happy training!

Couch

[Gangsterfist]

I can't see a tan sao, or a pok sao be effective against a hook. I can see the biu sao working, even on tight hooks, but not tan or pok.

Foot work and positioning are key when fighting boxers or people who fight like a boxer. I like to step towards the weak side and attack. My reasoning is don't worry about the limbs. Don't attack the army when you can just go for the general.

Example;

I am just standing there normal, not in any peticular stance. Some guy comes up towards me and throws a hook with his right, so its coming in towards my left. I step (angle step) towards his center on his left side (my right, stepping right) at the same time blasting his face. usually hitting near lower jaw/chin area an pushing through. Jogging their brain. This is how I train against wide hooks, or street type hooks. If you were to execute this in a well manner that hook will be ineffective, and more than likely not even make contact. If it were on some weird scnerio actually make contact it would have lost almost all its power because it would be past its optimal point of motion and at the apex

I like this method because its simple, effecient, and to the point.

[Ng Mui]

To defend against a right hook punch, Pak to the inside of his punch with your right hand. At the same moment straight punch to his throat with the left hand.
His punch will be absorbed by by your large mucle groups in the left shoulder and deflected by the Pak.
This should all be done with slight forward momentum, which aids by making his punch slightly off target.

Worked for me.

[Gangsterfist]

Ah yes inside pak sao. That would work too. You would have to pok at the hooks elbow area to effectively block it though. If you tried paking towards their wrist it would be harder to stop.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I saw an Aikido friend of mine use something very similar to a bong sau to pass the hook over his head and into his free hand, then roll his "bong" into a chum sau on the elbow. Instant arm bar.

I've had some success with it, but I usually don't chum sau, I just pull the hand to my hip and turn my bong sau into an elbow, or if I miss catching the hand I push through with the bong, which makes the back of the head present itself.

[Gangsterfist]

The bong sao is all in the elbow. If the dragon's head lowers, the tail raises. Bong saos are also not meant to be held, they are transitional, but I agree can also be used in chin na applications.

The movement you are referring to is more external. Its also a different, but similar motion. Its more of an upward strike and it was in and used in the okinawan karate system I studied. I am not saying your idea won't work, its just not really wing chun minded. Why armbar the hook, when you can just chain punch the face.

WSL had tons of full contact matches and won a lot with basically two movements. Qwan sao and chain punch. He claimed if you can get a few good chain punches off the fight would be pretty much over. He proved that in the ring (I think a bit over 100 times, but that may be way off). The key is timing and execution (delivery) with the chain punch. It is a sensory overload technique and can be very very effective.

In retrospect, there is a time and place for chin na. Especially if you want to play nice and not hurt the person.

[anerlich]

The movement you are referring to is more external.

I've seen the same movement used to redirect hooks to the outside in Russian MA. I've also seen some boxers do it, and they probably don't have a name for it. It's not really a classic bon, more folding the blocking limb and redirecting with the elbow and forearm.

It might be "external" (depending on your definition of external, some have all of WC being external), but it is very soft, not force against force, and I'm certain that would be the case in Aikido as well. I'd say it was as internal as any WC technique.

[anerlich]

WSL had tons of full contact matches and won a lot with basically two movements. Qwan sao and chain punch. He claimed if you can get a few good chain punches off the fight would be pretty much over. He proved that in the ring (I think a bit over 100 times, but that may be way off).

My Sifu had 100+ amateur and 37 pro ring fights. He won most of his matches, including some against other WC opponents, with kick knockouts, the fake front kick changeup roundhouse getting the most. Does that mean that technique will be best for all his students? All this proves is that chain punching worked EXTREMELY well for WSL, and kicks ditto for my Sifu.

You cannot extrapolate that out to it necessarily working the same, or being the best choice, for you.

I remember reading an Australian Choy Li Fut page, regarding a Sifu who allegedly had many tournament victories including at least one over WSL; CLF is a style full of *circular* techniques, according to some including twisting and swinging punches designed specifically to either snake around or crash through the Wing Chun guard. Circular strikes can, have, and will continue to beat straight line techniques if used correctly and with the appropriate setups. Dealing with a haymaker thrown from a stand off is very different from dealing with a tight hook thrown in the middle of a boxing combination. If you are dealing with the jab cross and on the back foot, you may not have time to start those chain punches before the tight hook nails you on the side of the jaw.

Chain punches are not magic bullets. Victory is not guaranteed.

I agree they are a sensory overload technique, but the same is true for just about all combination or indirect attacks. It could be argued that combos which vary the level and side of the body that they target cause greater sensory overload, than does drilling a million chain punches down the one line at the same target.

[Ernie]

gfist
[WSL had tons of full contact matches and won a lot with basically two movements. Qwan sao and chain punch. He claimed if you can get a few good chain punches off the fight would be pretty much over. He proved that in the ring (I think a bit over 100 times, but that may be way off). The key is timing and execution (delivery) with the chain punch. It is a sensory overload technique and can be very very effective.]]


eekkk were did you get that info WSL didn't chain punch , that is looked down upon in the system like a low skill level of fighting

the concept is footwork position and well placed punches with power

not the machine gun love tap over done stuff

i would get laughed out of my school if i chain punched

now the quan sau transition is true we seem to be very big on that

but like anerlich stated in short you are not wong , you are not facing the people he did on that given day in that given moment

you see it's not the finishing move , it's all the skills it takes to get you there
you can pick any type of strike and make it effective if your attributes are better then the guy your fighting on that given day

there is a cool bruce lee story from the china town school he went around and asked every one to pick the least useful and most difficult technique to pull off in a match
i think it ended up being some kind of spinning back kick or some thing .

well he sparred everyone in the room only useing that kick and shut everyone down

to prove a point it's not the technique but the skills of the man delievering it

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah, I never meant for it to be an end all ultimate victory move guys. I appollogize if you took it that way. I was just stating that IF you could get it off properly it could end a fight. From what I have heard from other sifus about WSL, and I bear in mind this could very well be false, is that he just did qwan sao + palm strike or chain punch. He usually won after 2 or 3 punches. That is because he was really good at it, and its a simple, direct, and fast movement. It is what I was told, this could have been before he was a student of Yip Man perhaps? I am not sure. I have heard it from several sources he only used a few techniques like qwan + a strike to win his fights? If I am wrong please correct me. I am not of his lineage and only know what I have been told, or what I have read.

Anerlich-

You are so correct about CLF. It relies heavy on chum (or sinking) moves. I have had real hands on experience with CLF people and I know that fighting them things like tan saos and biu saos don't really work. Also one aspect of CLF is constant attack to overwhelm your opponet. CLF is a well rounded execellet martial art. I have been very impressed by the people I have met.

I never meant for the chain punch to be the best answer, or the only answer to this situation. It has worked for me in teh past in a real fight. And yes when I stepped and punched from his weak side it totally stopped the hook. I know that does not mean it will happen every time, some people may just punch right through it. That is why I also train, pak, biu, and live foot work. However, since this has been proven to work for me I would probably more than likely if given a similar scenerio use the same techniques again. Trust me, I totally believe there are no ultimate attacks

[TjD]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Not entirely true. With a tight hook in trapping range you can use foot work and biu sao the outside of the hook and lop it down. Or you could biu it on the outside and as soon as the hook reaches past your elbow, drop it and tak sao your opponet. However, stepping to the weak side and punching is probably one of the best answers IMHO.

mabye we're thinking about differnet ranges. a tight hook is going to be thrown when your face is about 2-3 inches away from your opponent. there wont be room to biu. try getting in that close and doing a biu sau on anything. it's like trying to throw a roundhouse kick when you're in punching range - it just wont work.

also, if you're in this close, you'll be too tied up to do much of any footwork, at best you'll be able to shift. even if you're not tied up moving your body to make distance and biu is gonna take a whole lot longer than its going to take that hook to hit your face.

plus, biuing to the outside is going to make things even slower. you're arms will probably be on the inside. to biu the outside of their hook you'll have to go WAY off the centerline. it's just not fast enough.

these are good answers to a long distance hook that you see coming, but not for a tight hook; at least in my experience. against a tight hook you're going to have to raise your elbow to protect your head, hopefully catching the hook on the underside of your arm or guiding it away with your forearm. similar to the kup jarns from biu jee.

[Gangsterfist]

ernie,

Whats wrong with the chain punch bro? It works doesn't it? I thought you were all about what works. When fighting gets too fast to block, why not just chain punch?

I practice all kinds of punches and palm strikes, and I still like the chain punch over a lot of other types of punches.

[Gangsterfist]

Travis,

I see your point and agree with you. A lot of times when in clench (like face to face) positions its hard to see an educated hook come in. However, it is very possible to step and biu it on the outside. Lets say a hook is coming in from your right. Side step it (going towards the same side the punch is coming) and biu it with your left arm (opposite side of the hook). It is possible and I have done it before. However, you have to have everything move in unison and timing is key here. If the hook is not committed it may be harder. I pulled it off because the guy I was sparring drew his arm back to throw the hook. So I saw it a mile away. I started practicing it to see how applicable it was about 5 months ago or so and found it can work.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Travis,

I see your point and agree with you. A lot of times when in clench (like face to face) positions its hard to see an educated hook come in. However, it is very possible to step and biu it on the outside. Lets say a hook is coming in from your right. Side step it (going towards the same side the punch is coming) and biu it with your left arm (opposite side of the hook). It is possible and I have done it before. However, you have to have everything move in unison and timing is key here. If the hook is not committed it may be harder. I pulled it off because the guy I was sparring drew his arm back to throw the hook. So I saw it a mile away. I started practicing it to see how applicable it was about 5 months ago or so and found it can work.

allright, i can see it working against a telegraphed hook, if you aren't too tied up to take a step :)

against a more long range hook i've done things like this and they've worked nicely for me. i like to either charge the center and biu the inside and jam it up, or biu the outside and control it with fook sau. (both while doing whatever i want with my other hand).

i'm still gonna stick with kup jarn or bong sau against a non-telegraphed hook in the clinch. :D

[anerlich]

a tight hook is going to be thrown when your face is about 2-3 inches away from your opponent. there wont be room to biu.

Indeed, and there probably won't be room to chain punch at that range either.

VERY few boxers would lead with a hook, at the range where a bil sao or chain punch would work. They'd normally jab and/or cross, moving in close, to set you up for the short hook.

Gangster, if chain punches work for you, keep at it. I think it's a tactic that would work fine against your average street thug or drunk. Probably not all the time against a trained fighter, but most of them are too sensible to start fights anyway.

[Gangsterfist]

Very true anerlich. Any real fight I have been in involved me versus a street fighter with little or no training. I don't think I would end up fighting a white crane or venemous snake boxer on the streets. However, if I saw the postures (of snake and crane) I would not straight blast chain punches at them.

Btw I think I should clarify my definition of chain punching. I am not hammering strikes in at full speed we do not train that way. I am removing the hands each time controlling with one striking with the other. Me punching twice or three times in a row, I consider to be chain punching. I don't mean just drill in there full speed. A lot of times I just say chain punch for vertical punch. Its just a litteral habbit I picked up somewhere. I can see now how you all got confused and why we were not on the same level. So, in the future if I say a chain punch I could also mean just one plane old vertical punch

So, how bout step to the weak side and vertical punch at the same time, keeping your wu sao up, controlled movements the whole time....:D

[Gangsterfist]

Oh and one more thing, if someone is inches from my face I would probably upper cut elbow them. That will stop their punch when they hit the ground. If they can take my elbow then perhaps its time to walk away and not fight this person because they are obviously very tough.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Oh and one more thing, if someone is inches from my face I would probably upper cut elbow them. That will stop their punch when they hit the ground. If they can take my elbow then perhaps its time to walk away and not fight this person because they are obviously very tough.

an uppercut elbow isn't always (or even often) possible in the clinch, in fact i think its one of the least effective elbows. it'll get stuck in their arms or chest and be jammed up. the kup jarns from biu jee work wonders in close range, allowing you to get around arms and drop an elbow into someone or sideways into their head.

you can get in that close really quick, and be clinched up (thats why its called the clinch :D ) you wont have time to just do one move and say that'll be that - as always, there are too many variables.

try doing some close range dog sau with people allowing elbows. stay within a foot of each other. if you don'tk now what dog sau it basically works like this:

person 1 is attacker, person 2 is defender.
person 1 does an attack, person 2 acknowledges the attack and does a defense to it.

basically it's super slow chi sau broken up into attack and defense. this way nothing gets out of hand and you can do things like elbows and really think about whats going on. you get to analyze each attack and defense.

i DO NOT recommend doing close chi sau with elbows (although i've been "fortunate" to have a bit of experience here). you have to be DEAD SURE about your sensitivity, and the sensitivity of your partner, and know neither of you will let it get out of hand. theres too much possibility to knock someone out or cause some serious injury.

close range dog sau or chi sau is a real good way to get an idea of whats going on in the clinch. a lot of people play their chi sau at too far of a range, imho.

[Gangsterfist]

My idea would be to upper cut elbow before getting into a clench. If someone got up in my face, but no clench then upper cut elobw right to their jaw. Or a cup jong as well. I use elbows at real close range. I like them and practice them frequently. Which is why I am looking forward to cross training in 6 elbows kung fu here if I get the chance to.

[Ernie]

gfist
[[ernie,

Whats wrong with the chain punch bro? It works doesn't it? I thought you were all about what works. When fighting gets too fast to block, why not just chain punch?]]]

email me and i will break it down for you . it takes no skill to kill with a machine gun a monkey can do it

now to do it with one or two well placed shots then your talking true skill and understanding of the wing chun engine and power

[Gangsterfist]

email sent

[TjD]

i think my big problem with chain punches is they're a waste of energy. they can wear you out pretty quick.

i agree with ernie, why flail at someone with 100 punches when you can knock em down in 2?

[SAAMAG]

Why make this hard? Simplicity for me would be to simply use dai gurk, or wang gurk to his leg. No muss no fuss. Works about 99% of the time.

The bil jee chung kuen one beat attack defense would be my second choice should the kick not come off right due to whatever.

Just my two cents.

[reneritchie]

Lan Sao (like in Chum Kiu but angled to cross their punching forearm) and punch down the center with the other arm at the same time. Both arms need to be explosively powerful, and you need to drive in to break their balance as you do it. If they're still punching, switch and repeat. If they stop, pummel to finish.