View Full Version : william cheung

05-09-2001, 11:44 AM
who did william cheung train under and for howe long .. and how the did he become a grandmaster?
actually more important who gave him the title of grandmaster, himself??

curious .. thanks

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-

05-09-2001, 09:43 PM
Read his profile on his website:


You must be new to the Wing Chun community.

Welcome !

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

05-10-2001, 01:56 PM
that still doesnt tell me who gave him the label grandmaster

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-

05-11-2001, 11:25 AM
I was training with William Cheung few years ago. But, Honestly, he is not as good as what he claims so "good".

I'm a bit disappointted.

bean curd
05-12-2001, 11:37 AM
hi troy you live in newcastle, with all the cheap airfares right now, why dont you go down and ask him yourself, you obvioulsy have an issue with him being a grandmaster.

freestyle just because he doesn't appear to be good to you doesn't mean he isn't and wasn't.

just to clarify i don't train wing chun, but i do know people who where from choi li fut in hong kong when the ****e was going on there in the early days , and they never questioned his abilities.

the wing chun i am familiar with is from fut shan.

i will say though i met bill cheung when he first went to australia in the early 70's he was then and is still now a polite man.

you may question his ideolgies, but credit should be given where creditis due.

05-12-2001, 01:05 PM
I hope so...

but i think good sifu should, at all time, show peoeple his strength. Not a good excuse to pretend to be weak.

05-12-2001, 08:03 PM
free style,

as you said cheungs *weak*. can you share your traning under cheung with us?

base on what i know from some friends have been with cheung for few years, cheung has his ways to teach his students and it all depends on if he likes you or not, it would make it day or night.
would it be the case between cheung and you. just curious and no disrepect to you.

i am not a student of cheung, but i do have some respect for him more than many other armchair grandmasters.


05-13-2001, 01:14 AM
Several questions:

Has Cheung helped spread WC?

Has he added something of value to WC?

Has he hurt WC causing it to collapse and lose practioners?

If the guy has weak technique share what it is, how it is weak and how yours is more powerfull.

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

05-13-2001, 04:32 PM
Considering the amount of supposed 'Grandmasters' (Grandmaster Simon, anyone?) around, perhaps someone could also answer how it is that people who create their own style can constantly give themselves higher ranks? If you create your own style, and you're 5th dan, how exactly do you progress to 6th dan? Is there some sort of international group that does this? Or could I, right now, claim myself to be a Grandmaster and demand instant respect because of it? The title itself suggests a single person - was it given to another person while Yip Man was alive by any person of authority on the matter? If all the supposed current Grandmasters get together for dinner, who gets the most respect? Personally, I thought that someone bearing the title was recognised by the whole WC community as significantly contributing to WC. I don't recall hearing of Cheung ever doing something as great as this? :confused:

bean curd - being polite does not make you a grandmaster, or a nice guy. Or a bad guy. It makes you polite. And yes, I too have heard that Cheung was quite good.. when he was a teenager. Whether or not his skill progressed to a sufficient level after that is another matter. It amuses me that you would defend someone who commands your respect due to politeness. I like to consider myself polite, if I call myself Grandmaster would you defend me by attacking someone who asks a genuine question also? ;)

rogue - The issue here is not with a particular technique of Cheungs, but his skill as a whole - hence the question regarding his title. Cheungs 'traditional' WC may certainly have exposed WC to the public more, but as to whether or not he has added something of value comes down to whether or not you believe that Yip Man deliberately deceived his family, his senior students and their students in order to pass on the 'real' WC to a youngster under the moonlit stars. If you do, aside from insulting a man that stood for integrity and honesty, you believe Cheung was willing to teach this 'secret' part of WC to the common folk, thereby contributing to 'TWC'. If you consider that people may well believe this story, then 'Modified' WC does suffer due to people thinking it doesn't have all the correct footwork, and leading to them going elsewhere to pursue a school that does.

I was actually content to continue lurking, but I thought Troy's question was being treated as an attack on Cheung himself, rather than a genuine inquiry.. just thought I'd redirect it back to the original topic :)

Apologies to those I offend, I intend no disrespect to those who deserve their titles.

05-14-2001, 08:20 AM
i dont get the "maybe he just looked bad to you"
a grandmaster should be exalted for anything you do. do you think anyone watched yip man doing ving tsun and went"that looks pretty ****ty". i dont think so.
but thats omo

05-15-2001, 08:24 AM
as rill pointed out, my question in regards to william cheung was not an attack.. i didnt say i ahd a problem with william cheung i didnt put his him his lineage or his students down.. i am just curious
dont be so defensive about everything we are all here to learn

-The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war-

05-15-2001, 03:06 PM
Hey Troy,

Who gave Yip Man the title of GrandMaster .

Who gave his other predecessorss their titles.

I think a grandmaster is someone who has taught
a lot of people to be sifus, AND someone who
is respected by all these people ( not including

As far as I have experienced, people will not
respect your kung fu abilities unless they know
you can kick their ass really bad, or have experienced you kicking their ass really bad.

William Cheung has proven himself to a lot of people in the past, and doesnt need to prove himself to newbies or outsiders.

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

05-15-2001, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Who gave Yip Man the title of GrandMaster[/quote]
I believe his students and the rest of the Kung Fu world called him Grandmaster & thought of him as such.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Who gave his other predecessorss their titles. [/quote]
I've never heard Leung Jan, Chan Wah Shun, etc. referred to as grandmasters.

"Grandmaster"= Chief Executive Officer of a big business. It also puts those who use it as a title up on a pedestal and, I'm sure gratifies the ol' ego. Let's hope that when most of Yip Man's students finally die the GM title will die with them but I guess one of their students will proclaim himself as GM then and the cycle will start all over again. Also, Sin The' & Sijo are respected by their students as well but by not "outsiders" so I don't see any valid argument there. In fact the fact that you consider other WC practioners "outsiders" is pretty sad. Maybe if Cheung, Lueng, etc. and their students would worry more about the art of Wing Chun and making it work in the modern world instead of this constant bickering we could earn some respect in the martial arts community.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[This message was edited by BeiKongHui on 05-16-01 at 07:37 AM.]

05-15-2001, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Maybe if Cheung, Lueng, etc. and their students would worry more about the art of Wing Chun and making it work in the modern world instead of this constant bickering we could earn some respect in the martial arts community.

Is there really that much bickering at the top? I attended a Ho Kam Ming seminar a couple of years ago and he said they all teach Wing Chun. They may teach it differently, but as long as they are true to Wing Chun principles, it is still Wing Chun and that is O.K. I was also led to believe that that is pretty much the feeling of the other Yip Man students. And every lineage imaginable was represented at the seminar. We all worked together and all benefited. Also, in our school we are encouraged to attend seminars from any of Yip Man's students. Even though we are of the Ho Kam Ming lineage, one of our students has attend 4 William Cheung seminars. My Sifu encourages this and the student has only good things to say about the seminars. Personally, I think people are making too much out of too little. There is a lot of good stuff out there and really good people that won't be arround forever. So get what you can when every you can from who ever you can

05-15-2001, 08:32 PM
I am new to Wing Chun as well as Martial Arts, and learning more and more on a daily basis.

Not to cause any static, but if someone really
knows (not speculation). Could they answer the
orginal question of how one becomes a "GrandMaster"?


cha kuen
05-15-2001, 08:49 PM
Most of the time sifus give themselves the title of grandmaster.

05-15-2001, 09:40 PM
Really! I could state my opinion on that, but
to be completely honest, I'm not interested in
the politics. I have more pressing matters, like
finding a good school.


05-16-2001, 12:08 AM
To be a "master" of something has a connontation of finality. There is no term in Chinese that matches the English word "Master". As far as I've studied into Chinese language, there is no term that is equal to Grand Master. In Chinese thought, there is never an end to anything - everything cycles through different states. When do you master a punch? Can you always make it better?

Sifu means either teacher/father (traditional) or just teacher (People's Republic of China). Daai Si means great teacher, but does not literally mean master. I've seen Jung Si translated as Grand Master but it actually means clan leader/teacher. I suppose it comes down to how you mean Master. I've heard that a Sifu is one who walks the same path and they're just a little ****her ahead.

Yip Man never referred to himself as a Grand Master - it was his students that made that proclamation.

There are terms to denote great skill that are often used for high level practitioners of a discipline, but those translate closer to specialist rather than Master.

From what I've seen in the modern martial arts world, if you are a Sifu and you teach a student to Sifu level, you could call yourself a Master. If you student teaches a student to Sifu level, your student becomes a Master and you become a Grand Master. I was at a recent Hall of Fame awards banquet and I met a great many Grand Masters, most of which had been studying martial arts for 10-15 years. That's pretty close the time needed to become a PhD - but who does the grading and promoting? As a general rule, martial art instruction is a rather large hodge-podge of standards and quality.

Of course, there is also the case of people who learn a few arts, throw it together, and call it a new art - making them the Si Jo, the founder of the style. And there are people looking to promote themselves any way they can to make $$$.

Martial arts is an interesting place.

... opportunityisnowhere...
... was that no where...
...............or now here...

05-16-2001, 07:25 AM

Finding a good school is a job unto itself.

If you can, drive by and visit the top choices on your list and talk to the instructors and/or top students. If they are not open to visitors, go elsewhere.

If you have already been studying, you'll pick up on the atmosphere of the place right away. If you are new to martial arts, all I can say is go with your gut feeling.

Try to make your decision alone, away from the school and everyone else. Some places use very high pressure tactics, stay away from those. A good instructor will honor your choice to make a decision on your own.

If a sifu is good, people will seek him/her out. Try to find out who and where that sifu is.

Good luck, you have your work cut out for you.

"We forge our bodies in
the fire of our will." Han
from 'Enter the Dragon'

bean curd
05-16-2001, 01:44 PM

mo duk is an important part of gung fu, so lets not play games with foolish words, to prove a point.

if you know what mo duk means, and i am sure you do, then you know where i was coming from.

as to amusing you, glad i brought a smile to your face, thats nice to know, but again if you read what i wrote, i spoke first and foremost on the incidents of hong kong in the 50's/60's, since you are a player in wing chun, then you would be more than knowledgable of what happened.

as for bill using the words "grand master",is it him ? or those who talk about?write about him .

in general these terms are used "inside the family".
one would need to look at "who" wrote the articles, if they where students etc, to understand why they call him the way they do.

if your sifu's sifu taught you for awhile, then how would you address him??? if your sifu's sifu's father taught you for awhile how would you address him???

in earlier days, no one could call themselves a "sifu" as such by their own accord, it had to be given to them by there peers, sad to say but true, in this day and age things have changed greatly!!

05-16-2001, 05:09 PM
Hi all to those who remember me and with all due respect I have had far to much on my plate to even train a lot let alone get onto this site, Sihing73 how are you? I'm tired of hearing this s***. YIP MAN DID NOT LEARN THE WHOLE SYSTEM. Why do you people think Chuengs system that he taught during the 70's and early 80's looks a lot different to all of other Wing Chun that you see out there. How long did Chueng spend in MAINLAND CHINA. Wake up, How the hell do you people learning bulls*** expect to face up to someone with completely square on footwork or tee stances. Where the the hell does the tee stance leave you in the case your opponent side steps you. GOOD LUCK. Neutral stance makes you so unbalanced in the case of a frontal attack. No wander Jeet Kune Do students take the pi** out of us. Its because of this c*** being so unrealistic. THE HONG KONG STUFF WAS TAUGHT BY A DISHONEST OPIUM DEALER, GET OVER IT AND GO AND DO BOXING AT YOU LOCAL GYM.

"take the pebble from my hand"The old monk from the TV show"Kung Fu"

"I just go at it as best I can"
Benny the Legend.

05-16-2001, 06:28 PM
LOL! :rolleyes:


Sunt hic etiam sua praemia laveli
"Here too virtue has its due reward."

05-17-2001, 12:19 AM
you a regular on Comedy Central? :rolleyes:

Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

old jong
05-17-2001, 02:21 AM
I can't believe that some think that a wing chun guy would fight in Yee gee kim yeung ma!...A training stance!!!I guess we have to put this with the "trapping" category!...Oh god! :rolleyes:And with the "straight blast" :D I understand why some feel the urge to crosstrain so much!...They need it. :eek:

C'est la vie!

kungfu cowboy
05-17-2001, 03:08 AM
Hi old jong! How's it going?

Hmmm, I wonder about the stance. I thought it was just a training stance also. At my school, the neutral stance is the one used primarily while fighting, and they use it very well! No problem with mobility or rooting either! Go figure! Check out this article:


"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

old jong
05-17-2001, 03:35 AM
Hi cowboy,everything's O.K.! Thanks.
Well,I think many peoples have some misconceptions about this stance thing.I see the stance more as a concept than a fixed stance! In a way,if you have the ygkym feeling,you can have it in any foot position!This way you can be "rooted" and mobile at the same time.This is a structure when you feel your upper and lower parts of your body are working together.This is why we often see pics of "masters" with a semingly "bad" ygkym stances doing chi sao or something.
Anyway,with your size,no goat could carry you!...Stick to your horse Cowboy :D

C'est la vie!

kungfu cowboy
05-17-2001, 05:36 AM
old jong: I like yout interpretation! That makes sense! (you make me sound like a mutant! :D )

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

05-17-2001, 11:43 AM
"and the rest of the Kung Fu world called him Grandmaster & thought of him as such"

hehehe..........Not me!

ygkym stance is the center,like neutral on your gear shift,you can go anywhere from it.

flavour54,you are cluess my boy,ALOT of Sifus, honest people and non addicts hung out at opium
dens back then to discuss different things,it was a social meeting place for Chinese people back in the old days.it was not looked down upon,only
As for your take on JKD and boxing vs WT/VT/WC,
its not "US" thats getting our arses kicked
its YOU.

"Bound,by a burning desire,I fell into a ring of fire"
Johnny Cash :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

05-17-2001, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"and the rest of the Kung Fu world called him Grandmaster & thought of him as such"

hehehe..........Not me!

Wow, you were a contemporary of Yip Man?

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

05-17-2001, 07:54 PM
bean curd,

I realise where you're coming from, I should point out however that the last time a member of our school 'visited' Cheung in Melbourne, Cheung refused to accept (yes, I train with Troy). And no, I don't plan on elaborating on that one :)

I agree, in the absence of a title for someone of a much higher lineage than yourself, it may seem appropriate to call someone 'Grandmaster', but this would imply only seniority in terms of lineage, not skill. To me, truly being a Grandmaster implies both, AND having people recognise it - certainly members of Cheungs 'TWC' would agree he has the skill - which is perhaps why they all refer to him as such - whether or not the rest of us think so is another matter.

Perhaps part of the problem with the distinction is that Yip Man was both old and skilled, and that any variation of this seems to defy the idea of what is probably the only proper example we have to base opinions on? But then, I have been known to be wrong ;)

As for Choi Li Fut students thinking Cheung knew his stuff, I would imagine they'd be impressed after seeing any WC fighter, not just Cheung (sorry, couldn't resist that one) :)

05-18-2001, 09:48 AM
Wow, you were a contemporary of Yip Man?

Of course not.

Excuse me,I was referring to William Cheung,from
reading the first post.

Hope that clears it up.

bean curd
05-18-2001, 01:03 PM
i understand where you are coming from also, on both counts, meeting with not a friendly greeting and also, your understanding of what a si gung or si dai gung is.

i took exception to the questioning of why or how he can call himself a grandmaster, this not as a singular issue, it seems that many senior players and elders are being questioned by the youth of today on their validity, this is such a shame.

within the confines of the gwoon, such terminology is acceptable, and when outside it is heard, and no matter what others think, it should be respected.

issues such as who is the "keeper of the faith" from the yip man lineage as you know is and i would say will always been questionable, since yip man didn't claim a successor.

you know immediatly after his death a very junior player made brash statements that he was the keeper, although this was refuted very quickly it did cause much distress in the early days after yip mans death.

of this one should ask who gives someone the right to make brash statments about twc or whatever, but this should not hide the fact of what skill bill or any martial player had in his/her hayday.

hahaha, see even after all these years there is still respect from the fighting days. i was told the reason the wing chun players kept coming back was they couldn't see what was going on, they could only feel it.


05-18-2001, 02:27 PM
Hello All,

You know I always find it amusing when people question the credentials of others, particularily those they have never met. ;) I do not know William Cheung but I have met several of his students and several have a nice proven track record as far as fighting. I have met and trained with Leung Ting and also know several of his students.

Titles are a sign of respect and position within the ORGANIZATION. In America and the West in general Asian Titles have been corrupted from the original meaning. Look at some of the names people give themselves and you will see a pattern. Each wants to be more important so that they can market themselves better. It is important to realize that anyone can name themselves whatever they want, just like in corporations you can form the company and call yourself President, CEO whatever :p In the martial arts the same things happen. If I chose to start my own Wing Chun organization then I may wish to have some sort of naming structure to differeiate the various levels of students and instructors, at least from a commercial perspective. This is exactly what has happened in some martial arts organizations. Off the top of my head hear are a few of the "Grandmasters" of Wing Chun:
Phillip Holder,
William Cheung,
Leung Ting,
Richard Guerro,
The list could continue but I think you get the point. To the members of each of these organizations the person leading the group is the "Grandmaster". But, much like the title Sifu, this term only applies to the members of the respective group and those that choose to recognize the person/title.

So in conclusion if you wish to grant the respect of the title "Grandmaster" or "Sifu" to someone that is your right but it does not make them so to others not in the same frame of mind.



05-19-2001, 11:22 AM
Also, I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever call William Cheung "grandmaster" of all wing chun/ving tsung. They only say he is the grandmaster of "Traditional Wing Chun", which he chooses to call his branch of wing chun. So I don't think other wing chun styles should be offended that he claims seniority over others. Because he or his students don't. He is the #1 man in his particular branch. Just like Leung Ting. And Cheung's footwork is different, yes, it's more like the wooden dummy movements. I've heard others say that the fighting moves of wing chun are found in the wooden dummy. The rest trains certain things. Cheung just skips that stuff and goes right into the fighting footwork, probably because he tested his wing chun on the street in real fights and thought it was more effective. Everyone who has read this topic should read the four part article on William Cheung in Black Belt magazine, called "The William Cheung Story" I think, and reprinted on Cheung's website.
www.cheungswingchun.com/WWCKFAindex.html (http://www.cheungswingchun.com/WWCKFAindex.html)
scroll down on the left until you find "articles" and read the four part story. It's interesting, even to those who could care less about Cheung. Now I'm not trying to take sides, I don't think there should be "sides" to this. If people were more open minded about the different branches of their own art, we would all benefit. I realize that some people are open minded though. I for one would love to train with any of the wing chun greats.

06-07-2001, 02:56 AM
Whats with him selling a video for $400 bucks on iron palm? Anyone seen the method? Its real strange. You have a bag and like three punching bags around the bag. You slap the bag, punch forward and do thousand hand strikes. What I could glean from the photo's.

Does this make any sense? Like one guy buys the video, and then gives it away or makes a copy and pretty soon, you get to see it for free. Thats what I think when you charge too high for just a video.

What does anyone else think about this?

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:

Chinese military forum:

kungfu cowboy
06-07-2001, 09:06 AM
What a maroon! I'm sure they're selling like hotcakes too! :rolleyes:

(I seriously need a life.)

06-07-2001, 09:45 AM
sihing73, gradmaster?? Richard Guerro?...would that be only him or his older and younger ku fu brothers as well.., i should go see him, if hes a grandmaster...

06-07-2001, 10:49 PM
Hi simpleangles,

As far as I know Richard Guerro was an early student of Leung Ting who chose to go his own way. I believe Richard heads up his own organization and is referred to as Grandmaster of that group. I believe he also explored some other arts and may have merged his Wing Chun with things like Kali, but I am not 100% sure of this. I know he has or had a couple of videos out a few years ago. Not sure what the present status of him or his group is.



06-07-2001, 11:11 PM
Once your students have established strong schools, then you yourself become a grandmaster. There may be a more traditional meaning but it makes sense to me. =p I think most masters just think of themselves as masters..its the students that might add the "grand." =p