William C. C. Chen Tai Chi Chuan info?

[KubanLink]

Does anyone know about William C. C. Chen Tai Chi Chuan? http://www.williamccchen.com/

[Repulsive Monkey]

Was the youngest of Cheng Man-ching's Taiwanese disciples. Is a good fighter and studied hard with Cheng and his Taiji brother's. Not the best of Cheng's disciples but then I'm sure no one would declare that when their alleigance, lineage-wise, is to another disciple from Cheng's Taiwanese big 20.
Still he is a genuine Matser of his art, and from what I hear is art is a very high level.

[Cody]

Very high level in his art, with a gentle and "fine" energy that can turn on a dime and become hard as steel. Has immense control over his output, as should be the case in someone of that level, or even below it. Is human like everyone else.
He used to teach most of his classes himself, but from what I read on his website when I looked at it a while back, that is changing.

Cody

[Water Dragon]

My first martial art was William CC Chen's Tai Chi. Do you want to learn to fight? He can teach you.

[KubanLink]

Yes, I do want to learn the taiji boxing? Will he teach me? Please, tell me about your experience there.

[Water Dragon]

Well, I studied for 5 years under soome of his Senior Students here in the mid-west. I got to work with Master Chen about 2-3 times a year for those 5 years. I also got a chance to work with George Blank, who I understand teaches most of the classes while Master Chen is on the road.

One of the things I like about the school is that they have fighters being competetive in the San Shou scene. Check the FYIsection of his site.

What specifically do you want to know?

[KubanLink]

Maybe I'll go check it out and get back to you on any questions I have. Thanks.

[Josh Vogel]

Hi,
I've seen a couple of Mr. Chen's students fighting in tournaments over the last few years and was impressed with what I saw. They all seemed like skilled fighters and definitely did very well amongst some tough san shou fighters from the Praying mantis and Hung Gar schools. Thanks
Josh

[KubanLink]

I visited and was very impressed in every way. Master Chen took the time to talk to me for quite a while. Unfortunately, I found it to be very expensive.

[YongChun]

I visited Master William C.C. Chen in New York in about 1988. My background was Karate, Hung style, Yang style Tai Chi and Wing Chun. He was very nice and spent a long time with me to explain about his Tai Chi. Then he demonstrated a few Tai Chi postures and their hitting impact. No matter what posture he sent me flying across the room with the impact feeling like a truck had just hit me. However he had lots of control so that I felt the impact but was not hurt. There was little sign of external movement. His movement went from very soft to very hard. In the mean time his class had on the boxing gloves and were practicing some freestyle Tai Chi fighting. At the end he gave me a couple of articles on body mechanics. He attributed everything to refined body mechanics as opposed to Qi (Chi) power. It was definitely a pleasure to meet Master Chen.

[Water Dragon]

Anyone got a list of the movements in William C.C. Chen's 60 move Yang form? I can't remember the sequence for a few parts of the form. thanks

[diego]

In Sam Sheridan's "A Fighters Heart" he talks about training with Chen while injured from ringfighting...good book...:) "Three Nails" The big toe, ball of foot and inside edge of the heel. They are the places the foot is rooted to the ground. It is as if your energy could drive nails into the ground to hold you; they are the basis from which you generate power. "When I started tai chi, i realize that power isn't in the arms, it comes from the hips. And then, I start to think maybe ten years later I start to realize that power comes from the legs. after twenty years I saw that it's actually coming from the toe." you must feel power coming off of t he toe;driving energy down through your toes is some times what is referred to as "rooting" and it is what drives all of your movements.

one's movements should be led by the fingers activated off the toe. chen punches with a hollow arm fist resembling the fist loosely opened in boxer gloves...

"Compression" when you learn to strike you are taught to inhale and exhale on the exertion....but it's not just exhalation; it's also compression. when a boxer hisses as he puynches it's a form of compression.an exhalation, and open mouthed "whoo" of air, has no power. but when you control the air, when the karate guy shouts "KIAI" as he punches, that compression is what generates force. It's like a grunt when you pick up something heavy; you have to make an internal compression to generate power. Boxers hiss or grunt; the Thai s yell.

"They say tai chi is relax, but what they mean is relax with compression' when you lying in bed, you are relaxed, but there is little compression. It's like a sick person in the hospital; they are walking around like a skeleton" "when they say 'a boxer is out of gas',they not mean tired, they mean cannot make compression," " when you walk around with compression you think how cool I am. the compression is filling you up."

You guys know anything about this "compression?"

[Water Dragon]

You guys know anything about this "compression?"

Yeah. Go outside and either push your car down the street, or try to pick it up from the back bumper. Feel that pressure in your belly? That's compression.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have studied with WCC Chen.. i know Max and Tiffany, and i train regularly with one of his very accomplished students, a local teacher that studied with WCC for more that 20 years..

The 'compression' can be compared to a balloon where the opening is either full-open, nothing 'substantial', or.. where the air-flow is tightly controlled, but still flowing, 'flexible resistance' (Peng).. not so much 'resistance' as matching force less the proverbial "4 ounces", or plus the same "4 ounces".. more than 4 ounces 'pushing' and you reveal your own weakness, less than 4 ounces yielding and you 'disconnect', can't listen.. tricky stuff, brilliantly subtle..

Be well...

[Bob Ashmore]

I have not studied William C.C. Chen's style of TCC, though I'd like to, and so can't be sure but this "compression" sounds a lot like reverse breathing to me.
The way I understand it reverse breathing helps you express jing more correctly, so you use it during push hands or sparring or during an actual fight, while natural breathing helps you build chi and develop rooting, so you do that most of the time.
My understanding of this breathing pattern and its uses is limited to what I was taught in the Wu and Yang styles that I have trained, but the method you describe sounds quite similar to what I have been taught.

Bob

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, it is a form of reverse breathing. I don't like calling it that though, tends to make things more complicted than the need to be.

[taai gihk yahn]

you know that whole "hollow punch" thing was due to Yang Lu Chan teaching Mandarin nobles who had long fingernails and so couldn't make a tight fist, right?

[diego]

I'm studying fitness right now so I have questions on this topic i haven't even figured out yet :)... monkeys move muscles with mind... http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081015/full/news.2008.1170.html

didn't sun lu tang talk about mental kung fu? I have to read his Hsing Yi book when I get home.

muscles that move the spine: http://www.med.nyu.edu/hjd/hjdspine/education/anatomy/musclesandligaments/muscles.html

So, some thing I'm working on in school they always tell us to sit up straight pull the shoulders back army style. many tough guys walk around with this posture in closed fist chin up waiting to get knocked out...a boxer coils when he fights, he tucks his chin. The Monkey frame in the hop gar stances I do resemble a boxer's or a wrestler's coil... chin tucked into shoulder, elbows guard ribs, tuck knees... give him the top of your head to punch, etc...this coiled is compression like pushing a car...what is it from a skeletal analysis?. Most people don't compress as they walk upright so they don't have crazy internal power, like a person in a hospital or a person who does a desk job at NASA 16 hours a day...the muscles in the center of your back is what extends the spine...not the shoulders pull back...that will get you knocked out in a fight!. I think compression is just use the center of back muscles to hyper-extend the spin while you flex the shoulders and neck into the boxer guard creating internal compression = stoked chi in the dantien, the internal oven.

or I'm drunk ;)

[diego]

you know that whole "hollow punch" thing was due to Yang Lu Chan teaching Mandarin nobles who had long fingernails and so couldn't make a tight fist, right?

for real? I grew up in Canada, first time I heard that;):D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Closed fist" or tightly clenched fists stop the flow of energy at the area of resistance.. WCC Chen teaches hollow fist relaxed power.. the relaxed/flexible striking is very quick, it flows into the target, and continues after contact.. it has the very desirable attribute of being 'changable', where the clenched version is not only comitted, it's very controllable.. not only does the clenched fist trap energy in the hands, it stops the flow in the arms which creates 'levers' useful in manipulating position..

Reverse Abdominable Breathing (Taoist Breathing) is the actuallity of breath in combat, normal abdominal breathing (Buddhist Breathing) creates a conflict in the energetics of dynamic combat.. the 'expand/inhale~contract/exhale' (Buddhist) negates the compression necessary to accelerate and amplify energy expressions.. as an example, tightly purse your lips so that very little air-flow occurs, then observe your abdomen as you force the exhale and inhale.. it will exemplify Reverse Breathing and create compression.. as it turns out, Reverse Breathing occurs naturally during combat.. to train contrary to that creates unnecessary tension..

What i notice about most Taiji players is that they have been taught 'unnatural' movement.. the form is useful to teach very natural principles of structure, mechanics, alignment, balance, timing and movement.. to create movements that insist on unnatural movements or contrived postures, also creates conflict within the player.. the first thing noticable in a posture or movement that has been trained in a manner not consistent with natural movement, it that it IS noticable.. it tells your partner that something is happening, it alerts them to your intentions.. natural movement, even at combat speed, is much less noticable..

We use 'unconventional' training methods to enhance speed, accuracy and power 'naturally'.. for example, i will put one of those soft weighted rubber balls (3-4 lbs) on a pedestal behind the heavy bag at head height.. the object is to grab and retrieve the ball, touching the shoulder of the hand that grabs it as quickly as possible.. a great way to train the hook.. or, i stand behind the student and toss one of those balls over their head while they wait to grab it.. what this does is to eliminate the idea of conflict and train the 'natural' speed necessary to identify a target and move naturally to acquire it.. the students have little if any tension, and the movements are fluid and fast.. although it takes much time and practice to integrate natural movement into combative skills, the result is a magnitude greater than the tensed fighter waiting to explode into a predetermined 'form'.. a relaxed fighter applying 'principles' as the situation evolves remains fluid and changes with the situation..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

"reverse" breathing is actually quite natural, weightlifters do it all the time, so do we, whenever we are about to exert lots of force.

[TenTigers]

you know that whole "hollow punch" thing was due to Yang Lu Chan teaching Mandarin nobles who had long fingernails and so couldn't make a tight fist, right?
In that case this style shold do well with receptionists, sales clerks, and queens of the trailer park.

[diego]

In that case this style shold do well with receptionists, sales clerks, and queens of the trailer park.

Or peeps who work at NASA... :D

So, when you do tai chi you relax with reverse breathing creating compression...What does all this mean for fighting?. I was brainstorming this with my older brother who has been in many prison fights and I was telling him my idea of pull back the spine and coil the shoulder frame, tuck the head...when you are attacked your hands react like a snake and shoot out into say double tan sao and you say " Get away" it's a natural reaction. Kung Fu is just dancing through that reaction or land swimming...your hands shoot out double tan sao or clinch and you keep him at elbow, knee, and winch chun punching or tiger claw eye raking range. Now that you hit him he does the double tan sao clinching dance and you guys play water volleyball until some one gasses and drowns... about an hour late the adrenaline wears off you don't feel cool like a ninja any more and the pain of whatever injuries you achieved kick in:cool:

I gotta read over this thread again...

[taai gihk yahn]

"Closed fist" or tightly clenched fists stop the flow of energy at the area of resistance.. WCC Chen teaches hollow fist relaxed power.. the relaxed/flexible striking is very quick, it flows into the target, and continues after contact.. it has the very desirable attribute of being 'changable', where the clenched version is not only comitted, it's very controllable.. not only does the clenched fist trap energy in the hands, it stops the flow in the arms which creates 'levers' useful in manipulating position..
I don't buy it; holding the fist "hollow" does not confer any particular advantage: Yang changed it to accommodate his upscale students; it's the same reasoning behind his taking out the seminal movement (from a Taoist alchemical perspective) of Arhat Grinding the Mortar - stomping on the ground would be unseemly; so too went the double jump front kick in the middle of the Second Chapter, the low spinning sweep (Iron Broom) at the end of it and the double jumping / spinning kick at the end of the form (if it's called Double / Twin Lotus, why is there only one kick in the extant form?); these are all movements in the version of the "pre-Beijing" (as my teacher refers to it) Yang form I learned, and there is no "hollow fist" anywhere to be found; at the same time, we do not hold the closed fist "tightly clenched" either, as that does create unnecessary tension during delivery as described above (basically, firing finger flexors maximally has a synergistic effect up through flexori carpi and biceps, which certainly slows the extension of the arm - so no need to talk about "energy" abstractly, it's very well-describable from a neuromuscular perspective) but on impact the fist is tightened; but this is not different from what I have seen in other styles, internal or otherwise: even my old TKD instructor used to punch this way; and William would understand this as well, what with his boxing background...


Reverse Abdominable Breathing (Taoist Breathing) is the actuallity of breath in combat, normal abdominal breathing (Buddhist Breathing) creates a conflict in the energetics of dynamic combat.. the 'expand/inhale~contract/exhale' (Buddhist) negates the compression necessary to accelerate and amplify energy expressions.. as an example, tightly purse your lips so that very little air-flow occurs, then observe your abdomen as you force the exhale and inhale.. it will exemplify Reverse Breathing and create compression.. as it turns out, Reverse Breathing occurs naturally during combat.. to train contrary to that creates unnecessary tension..
this I agree with completely; so-called "reverse" breathing creates a more stable base of support for the second phase of diaphragmatic contraction, because it prevents the abdominal viscera from descending as much as they would during "belly" breathing; so with the central tendon of the diaphragm stabilized, the peripheral fibers are able to contract more fully / strongly to elevate / externally rotate the ribs, allowing for more air to enter the lungs; the contributes to, among other things, better spinal health, better autonomic tone, better lymphatic drainage and better abdominal visceral function; this is all because of the "compression" (followed by a "decompression" part) that creates a "backflow" effect, pushing lymph and venus blood out of the organ systems and back into the vena cava;


What i notice about most Taiji players is that they have been taught 'unnatural' movement.. the form is useful to teach very natural principles of structure, mechanics, alignment, balance, timing and movement.. to create movements that insist on unnatural movements or contrived postures, also creates conflict within the player.. the first thing noticable in a posture or movement that has been trained in a manner not consistent with natural movement, it that it IS noticable.. it tells your partner that something is happening, it alerts them to your intentions.. natural movement, even at combat speed, is much less noticable..
true


We use 'unconventional' training methods to enhance speed, accuracy and power 'naturally'.. for example, i will put one of those soft weighted rubber balls (3-4 lbs) on a pedestal behind the heavy bag at head height.. the object is to grab and retrieve the ball, touching the shoulder of the hand that grabs it as quickly as possible.. a great way to train the hook.. or, i stand behind the student and toss one of those balls over their head while they wait to grab it.. what this does is to eliminate the idea of conflict and train the 'natural' speed necessary to identify a target and move naturally to acquire it.. the students have little if any tension, and the movements are fluid and fast.. although it takes much time and practice to integrate natural movement into combative skills, the result is a magnitude greater than the tensed fighter waiting to explode into a predetermined 'form'.. a relaxed fighter applying 'principles' as the situation evolves remains fluid and changes with the situation..
I am a big fan of the 4# ball, use it in PT w/my kids all the time - great for getting them to coordinate breathing, movement from the core and visual-vestibular integration; the basic position is to have them hold the ball at heart level with what basically amounts to a Lotus Mudra (but don't tell them that!) and go from there; incidentally, I also do push-hands drills with some of 'em, it is a pretty efficient means by which to identify and treat deficits in proprioception, bilateral integration / coordination, etc., and gives me the opportunity to "model" via tactile input what I want them to be doing...

[Water Dragon]

The fist is more 'loose' than 'hollow'. When you make impact, you squeeze the first two fingers and the thumb to maintain the integrety of the fist. This is a slight pulse that creates a whip like effect. The idea is that by staying relaxed and tensing only on impact, you're quicker, waste less enrgy, and it lets less of the force 'bounce back' into your fist which forces the opponent to take the full force of the punch.

It's got nothing to do with fingernails.

[taai gihk yahn]

The fist is more 'loose' than 'hollow'. When you make impact, you squeeze the first two fingers and the thumb to maintain the integrety of the fist. This is a slight pulse that creates a whip like effect. The idea is that by staying relaxed and tensing only on impact, you're quicker, waste less enrgy, and it lets less of the force 'bounce back' into your fist which forces the opponent to take the full force of the punch.
100% agreed on the mechanics, and this is how I was taught: fist closed but held loose (as I stated earlier); but many (most?) taiji folks do hold the fist hollow in such a way that closing it at the point of impact would not be possible; and at least one well-regarded mainland PRC taiji guy told me straight out that you keep it that way when you make contact :eek:


It's got nothing to do with fingernails.
this is an explanation that comes down through my lineage (Yang Lu Chan --> Yang Tzai Teng --> Hing Kam Ku --> my teacher); yes, it is word of mouth; like basically most taiji lore, except for the stuff that got written down, which, of course, makes it infinitely more reliable (:rolleyes:); anyway, to me, it is a plausible explanation, based on that in my estimation, to hold a fist completely hollow in the way I have seen many "orthodox" Yang folk do just makes no sense at all, for reasons stated above; so I have to go with what I got, which I agree cannot be proven (nor disproved...)

[Water Dragon]

Fair enough. I can only speak to what I was taught. Here's one thing on the 'hollow' fist. I was taught to hold the fist like I had a cricket in my hand. You don't wanna crush it, and you don't wanna let it go. This is more hollow than a boxing fist, but still solid.

[taai gihk yahn]

Fair enough. I can only speak to what I was taught. Here's one thing on the 'hollow' fist. I was taught to hold the fist like I had a cricket in my hand. You don't wanna crush it, and you don't wanna let it go. This is more hollow than a boxing fist, but still solid.

the way I see most taiji guys hold their fist, that would have to be one big fu(king cricket...;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I spent a day at a workshop with WCC Chen and at least an hour was spent developing the relaxed fist strike.. what we worked on was using a relaxed, almost open, hand traveling to its target.. almost as if you were trying to touch the target with the fingers.. then, just at the 'touch' the fingers curled quickly into a loose, but not hollow, fist.. the quick 'curling' sort of pulled the arm forward, snapping the 'unified and fluid' structure of the arm/hand into place at the point of contact.. as we became proficient at the strike we cut the distance down untill we were actually striking with power beginning from the point of touching with the finger-tips.. the drills were practiced on heavy bags, integrating full-body mechanics.. the increased speed and power became clearly evident.. i was treated to the 'demonstration' by connecting my shoulder to the opposite side of the heavy bag while WCC demonstrated the strike as it originated from his fingers touching the bag.. the impact moved me a couple of feet and my neck was sore the next day, for 70+ years of age WCC 'has it'...

Be well...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings..

I spent a day at a workshop with WCC Chen and at least an hour was spent developing the relaxed fist strike.. what we worked on was using a relaxed, almost open, hand traveling to its target.. almost as if you were trying to touch the target with the fingers.. then, just at the 'touch' the fingers curled quickly into a loose, but not hollow, fist.. the quick 'curling' sort of pulled the arm forward, snapping the 'unified and fluid' structure of the arm/hand into place at the point of contact.. as we became proficient at the strike we cut the distance down untill we were actually striking with power beginning from the point of touching with the finger-tips.. the drills were practiced on heavy bags, integrating full-body mechanics.. the increased speed and power became clearly evident.. i was treated to the 'demonstration' by connecting my shoulder to the opposite side of the heavy bag while WCC demonstrated the strike as it originated from his fingers touching the bag.. the impact moved me a couple of feet and my neck was sore the next day, for 70+ years of age WCC 'has it'...

Be well...

Sounds about right, I had the pleasure of one meeting him a few years ago with a mutual friend.
Very nice guy, totally down to earth, we spoke mostly about the practical application of Taiji.
He showed that "relaxed fist", I had seen it before done by Erle Montaigue ( Yeah, I know, bite me), it worked really well and had lots in common with what boxers are taught to do also, something that he himself mentioned.

[sihing]

Greetings..

I spent a day at a workshop with WCC Chen and at least an hour was spent developing the relaxed fist strike.. what we worked on was using a relaxed, almost open, hand traveling to its target.. almost as if you were trying to touch the target with the fingers.. then, just at the 'touch' the fingers curled quickly into a loose, but not hollow, fist.. the quick 'curling' sort of pulled the arm forward, snapping the 'unified and fluid' structure of the arm/hand into place at the point of contact.. as we became proficient at the strike we cut the distance down untill we were actually striking with power beginning from the point of touching with the finger-tips.. the drills were practiced on heavy bags, integrating full-body mechanics.. the increased speed and power became clearly evident.. i was treated to the 'demonstration' by connecting my shoulder to the opposite side of the heavy bag while WCC demonstrated the strike as it originated from his fingers touching the bag.. the impact moved me a couple of feet and my neck was sore the next day, for 70+ years of age WCC 'has it'...

Be well...

Good Post:) I've been working on something like this for awhile now, not being concerned with the fist but rather just connecting the structure thru the elbow to express a powerful strike.

I find with the students I teach, they tend to make a tight fist right from the beginning of the movement, which makes them stiff and unable to use the VT power generation method.

I tell them to think of holding a egg or small bird in their palms when they strike, this relaxes their forearms, and allows them to lead their strike with their elbows, as per VT concept.

We develop the proper mechanics, then I have them hit the pad and bags to learn to make the fist at the last moment before contact. Hard to learn but worthwhile once it is learned correctly.

James

[taai gihk yahn]

Greetings..

I spent a day at a workshop with WCC Chen and at least an hour was spent developing the relaxed fist strike.. what we worked on was using a relaxed, almost open, hand traveling to its target.. almost as if you were trying to touch the target with the fingers.. then, just at the 'touch' the fingers curled quickly into a loose, but not hollow, fist.. the quick 'curling' sort of pulled the arm forward, snapping the 'unified and fluid' structure of the arm/hand into place at the point of contact.. as we became proficient at the strike we cut the distance down untill we were actually striking with power beginning from the point of touching with the finger-tips.. the drills were practiced on heavy bags, integrating full-body mechanics.. the increased speed and power became clearly evident.. i was treated to the 'demonstration' by connecting my shoulder to the opposite side of the heavy bag while WCC demonstrated the strike as it originated from his fingers touching the bag.. the impact moved me a couple of feet and my neck was sore the next day, for 70+ years of age WCC 'has it'...

Be well...
sounds more than reasonable when explained in this manner;


Sounds about right, I had the pleasure of one meeting him a few years ago with a mutual friend.
Very nice guy, totally down to earth, we spoke mostly about the practical application of Taiji.
He showed that "relaxed fist", I had seen it before done by Erle Montaigue ( Yeah, I know, bite me), it worked really well and had lots in common with what boxers are taught to do also, something that he himself mentioned.
William was a competative boxer in Taiwan

even De La Hoya agrees with this, BTW:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1864438,00.html

THE PUNCH
1. SMOOTH START Keep your fist loose as you begin to swing, says De La Hoya. Tension just slows you down and tires you out.
2. TIGHT SQUEEZE When you're halfway to the target, clench to prep for landing.
3. POWER BOOST Just before impact, twist your fist for maximum force.

[Bob Ashmore]

Sove very good posts about "loose fist".
Yang style TCC that I have learned uses "loose fist" but certainly not hollow. A hollow fist, as described here, is likely to get your hand broken.
Wu style that I have trained taught me the same thing.
"Closing" the fist at impact actually is done by extension of the muscles in the back of the fingers and forearm, not by contracting the inner muscles.
Muscular contraction, at any point of your body will actually lessen the amount of "force" you can exert during the punch, or anything else.
It is muscular expansion that will create "sung", not muscular contraction.
This is much easier said than done.
That line fairly well defines Tai Chi Chuan from beginning to end...

Cheers,
Bob

[taai gihk yahn]

"Closing" the fist at impact actually is done by extension of the muscles in the back of the fingers and forearm, not by contracting the inner muscles.
that is impossible; the only way to actively close the fist is to fire your finger / wrist flexors; if you fire extensors, the fist opens; this is neurophysiological fact, there is no way it can be otherwise (it is possible to "close" the fist by doing wrist extension to end of range through something called tenodesis effect, but that is a passive response to hitting the limit of finger flexors)


Muscular contraction, at any point of your body will actually lessen the amount of "force" you can exert during the punch, or anything else.
this is a myth long-propagated by the internal crowd, that "correct" movement has no muscular contraction, that contracting muscles decreases power, etc.; the truth is that, without muscles contracting, there would be no movement, and also there would be no standing up; in fact, it's almost impossible not to have muscles firing at all times, because it's part of their basic programming when you are standing vertical in gravity; the idea that contracting muscles is somehow unnatural is just odd..
see, it's not that you are contracting or not, it's how you contract that is salient to taiji / internal / all martial arts
what is really being described here, is a situation where muscular contraction operates optimally; first, meaning that if you fire a given muscle (an agonist), it is not opposed by simultaneous contraction of the muscle(s) that does the opposite motion (the antagonist); so if I throw a punch w/my arm extensors firing, but at the same time I am activating arm flexors, I am basically driving with one foot on the gas and one on the break; now, the reason that the flexors could fire could be anything from poor postural organization, reliance on accessory muscles of respiration, fist held too tight: all these will create some sort of bias in the flexors that will create conflict in my goal of extending the arm; now, at the same time, you can look at other areas of the body: feet, knees, pelvis, and find that same sort of conflict going on (e.g. - simultaneous firing of psoas and glutes, which many people do); so this is why postural alignment in taiji is important, because if you are functioning inefficiently and using non-core muscles to do the work of core muscles, you will have conflict which will interfere with optimal movement;
the other part is that, as you feel the ground reaction force move through the connective tissue matrix, you fire the musculature so that it supports this movement, not opposes it - which is why when you get it "right", tossing someone feels effortless, because you are riding that wave of GRF that was the result of their initial input into you that went into your structure and "rebounded" back; the analogy would like pushing a ball rolling down hill - you are contributing to the roll, but it doesn't feel like you are


It is muscular expansion that will create "sung", not muscular contraction.
there is no such thing as muscular "expansion"; muscles shorten or lengthen, that's it; the "expansion" feeling is more a property of connective tissue, which is what you get when you "float" your structure on the GRF, which is what the whole "suspended by a string" bit is nudging you towards...


This is much easier said than done.
That line fairly well defines Tai Chi Chuan from beginning to end...
you have to look at the principles, which are what set you up for efficient postural organization in gravity; these principles are a culturally coded way of explaining things that other systems (Alexander Technique, e.g.) arrived at on their own, but articulate in a way more easily accessible to "westerners"; meaning that if one investigates deeply, one will arrive at the same "truth" as someone else did; in other words, there is nothing particularly unique to taiji in terms of how it's trying to get you to organize posture and movement; the difference is the way aspects of this are trained, but even that is found in other approaches; remember, "taiji" means Great Pivot (Supreme Ultimate is a bad translation) - the Pivot being the polar axis as determined by the Pole Star, which was very important in Taoist astronomy (derrrr...); but in the body, the spine becomes the pivot; so here is another example of Taoist macro / micro mirroring; meaning that the connection between the movement of the earth in space and the human being on earth is implied as intimately linked (for example, an older version of Cloud Hands is called Bear Walk; as in walking the Seven Stars of the Bear...); with the further intimation that if one moves as the planet moves, one will do so without conflict - that is the truth behind taiji: not contracting muscles is just impossible (I mean, it's natural to contract muscles, and Taoist practice is about being natural, right...);
another "verification of this is the taiji principle "yih nan ling san" - with the eyes lead the body; what is being described here is something called the occulo-gyro-cephalic reflex - meaning that if you look in a certain direction, the muscles of the body that would move you that way, "prime" to move, in anticipation of moving that way; this is a well described physiological reflex, and it involves muscle contraction / changes in muscle tone; and somehow, this was understood by whoever came up with that phrase; nothing about not contracting muscles, but rather a formula for how to predispose the muscular system to work in harmony, in a way that is efficient and without conflict;

[Bob Ashmore]

I used to feel much the same way about muscular contraction: "you can't move without doing that" used to be a popular outburst of mine.
It wasn't until I discovered that the only battle involved in that long hashed out argument is one of semantics that I finally began to understand the concept.
Of course the muscles get longer and shorter, one gets longer, one gets shorter, that's how you move and it is "natural" and necessary.
What is important is how you do it.
If you use tense muscular contraction to move, you create rigidity in your body that can be very quickly used against you. Anyone with any amount of time in push hands will feel that tension and isolate it, cutting off your ability to elongate the opposite muscle. This is why during push hands unskilled opponents are so easily trapped. It is by using their own tension against them.
That is not to say that opposing muscle groups will not shorten, it is only saying that you do not shorten it by forcing it along with what I can only describe as "li", dumb strenght, muscular tension...
Whatever you want to call it.
Surely you aren't trying to suggest that tensing up is a good thing?
It's not shortening or lengthening the muscles that is innappropriate during TCC, it is how you do it.
Do not "contract" the muscle. That is how I was taught the semantics. Lengthen or expand the opposite muscle, let the one getting shorter do so loosely and without using strength.
When one side pushes, does the other have to pull? No. It just has to become loose and allow the opposite side to do it's thing. This allows a greater range of motion, try it and you will see.
You can say this as "lengthen" or "expand" or however you want to say it.

I used to use a lot of the same arguments you did in your posting. Now I have tried the idea of expansion and relaxation of opposing muscle groups I have found a greater sense of balance, my rooting is deeper and my opponents ability to pluck or push me out of my stance has decreased incredibly.
You might want to give the idea a try. What have you got to lose but a few hours of your time?
Be well

Bob

[Mfinn]

I started out studying briefly with William in NYC in 1968 and then went to Cheng Man-Ching's school on the Bowery for about a year before he went back to Taiwan. Did some things with other people, including T.T. Liang when he was in Boston and then a lot of students of students etc.

Finally, I started studying with Yu Cheng Hsiang in NYC in the late 1980s. In a nutshell, what I learned from Master Yu was that there is just way too much thinking going on with T'ai Chi Ch'uan, and that is perfectly exemplified in this thread. Can you imagine a similar kind of online discussion about the proper way to hold a baseball bat or a basketball or dance partner? What I learned -- IMHO -- is that this is an athletic activity, that what is required is careful imitation and lots of practice in order to arrive at a place where you can do the thing with concentration but no thinking. Or, as Master Yu puts it, a beginner must follow the form. Later, the form will follow you.

It is all this talk about how to make a fist that makes the world at large think that T'ai Chi Ch'uan people are into some kind of mystical thing that is unlike any other martial or athletic activity.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I started out studying briefly with William in NYC in 1968 and then went to Cheng Man-Ching's school on the Bowery for about a year before he went back to Taiwan. Did some things with other people, including T.T. Liang when he was in Boston and then a lot of students of students etc.

Finally, I started studying with Yu Cheng Hsiang in NYC in the late 1980s. In a nutshell, what I learned from Master Yu was that there is just way too much thinking going on with T'ai Chi Ch'uan, and that is perfectly exemplified in this thread. Can you imagine a similar kind of online discussion about the proper way to hold a baseball bat or a basketball or dance partner? What I learned -- IMHO -- is that this is an athletic activity, that what is required is careful imitation and lots of practice in order to arrive at a place where you can do the thing with concentration but no thinking. Or, as Master Yu puts it, a beginner must follow the form. Later, the form will follow you.

It is all this talk about how to make a fist that makes the world at large think that T'ai Chi Ch'uan people are into some kind of mystical thing that is unlike any other martial or athletic activity.

Not sure what your problem is but I see no need to bring common sense and logic into a perfectly kung fuish conversation.
:D

[spiralstair]

another "verification of this is the taiji principle "yih nan ling san" - with the eyes lead the body; what is being described here is something called the occulo-gyro-cephalic reflex - meaning that if you look in a certain direction, the muscles of the body that would move you that way, "prime" to move, in anticipation of moving that way; this is a well described physiological reflex, and it involves muscle contraction

Yeah, one sees this on the highway all the time. Person in the inside lane sees oncoming overtaking traffic in his outside mirror and 'unconciously' pulls the wheel slightly in that direction...causing a slight drift of their vehicle till they correct. That's why smart Bikers always ride down the outside of the overtaking lane, otherwise you can get wiped off by the 'eyes leading the body' phenomenom.

taai gihk yahn.... Good Post.

[AJM]

Fair enough. I can only speak to what I was taught. Here's one thing on the 'hollow' fist. I was taught to hold the fist like I had a cricket in my hand. You don't wanna crush it, and you don't wanna let it go. This is more hollow than a boxing fist, but still solid.

Grasping the robins egg is used in other styles as well.

[GeneChing]

Read Tai Chi Software Application Update: William CC Chen Shares Crucial Points of Mental Focus to Improve Health and Unleash the Body's Energy (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1154) by Robert Dreeben

[GeneChing]

...now I'm really happy for her. Wow.


Who Is Tiffany Chen? 5 Things to Know About Robert De Niro’s Girlfriend Amid Baby News (https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/pictures/tiffany-chen-5-things-to-know-about-robert-de-niros-girlfriend/)
By Meredith Nardino May 10, 2023


https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/5-Things-to-Know-About-Robert-De-Niros-Girlfriend-FEAT.jpg?w=1600&quality=86&strip=all
Tiffany Chen and Robert De NiroBav Media/SplashNews.com; Rob Latour/Shutterstock

Mystery woman no more. Robert De Niro has kept his relationship with Tiffany Chen under wraps since the pair were first linked in 2021.

The twosome reportedly connected on the set of 2015’s The Intern. At the time, the Oscar winner was married to Grace Hightower, with whom he welcomed son Elliot and daughter Helen in 1998 and 2011, respectively.

De Niro and the socialite tied the knot in 1997, two years before he filed for divorce and sued Hightower for custody of their son. The pair later reconciled and renewed their vows in 2004, but they called it quits for good in 2018.

“Grace and I have two beautiful children together. We are entering a period of transition in our relationship, which is a difficult but constructive process,” the Meet the Parents actor noted in a statement to Us Weekly at the time.

Three years later, De Niro was photographed holding hands with Chen on a romantic European getaway. The duo were caught packing on the PDA while on a yacht with friends.

Over the years, the Taxi Driver star and the competitive martial artist have remained tight-lipped about their relationship. The pair were spotted meeting up with De Niro’s pals Billy Crystal and Harvey Keitel at Giorgio Baldi in Los Angeles in April 2023, one month before the Godfather Part II actor announced the arrival of his seventh child.

The New York native told ET Canada in May 2023 that he “just had” baby No. 7, but he did not immediately reveal the identity of the child’s mother. His About My Father costar Kim Cattrall hinted later that month that De Niro welcomed the newborn with Chen.

“God bless him. His significant other, Tiffany, is such a beautiful woman,” the Sex and the City alum gushed to Extra. “She came to the set once with her family and watched filming, and she was gorgeous and sweet. I’m happy for both of them.”

De Niro first became a father in 1976, welcoming son Raphael with his then-wife, Diahnne Abbott. He also adopted Abbott’s daughter from a previous relationship, Drena, before the couple’s 1988 split.

The Golden Globe winner went on to welcome twin sons Julian and Aaron via surrogate with model Toukie Smith, whom he dated from 1988 to 1996. While fans were shocked to hear De Niro’s family expanded even further in 2023 — at 79 years old — he assured Page Six the pregnancy was “planned.”

“How you could not plan that kind of thing?” he teased while promoting About My Father.

Sign up for Us Weekly's free, daily newsletter and never miss breaking news or exclusive stories about your favorite celebrities, TV shows and more!

Scroll down to learn more about Chen:

https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/5-Things-to-Know-About-Robert-De-Niros-Girlfriend-5.jpg?w=1200&quality=86&strip=allCredit: Bav Media/SplashNews.com

1. What Does Tiffany Chen Do for a Living?
Chen is a martial arts professional and instructor who has earned numerous titles and awards from around the globe. She was inducted into Inside Kung-Fu magazine's Hall of Fame in February 2011 at the age of 26. As a child, Chen took up ballet, figure skating, swimming and gymnastics before following in her dad's martial arts footsteps.

https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/5-Things-to-Know-About-Robert-De-Niros-Girlfriend-7.jpg?w=1200&quality=86&strip=all
Credit: Francois Duhamel/Waverly/Warner Bros/Kobal/Shutterstock

2. How Did Tiffany Chen Meet Robert De Niro?
Chen's talents landed her a role in the 2015 movie The Intern where she taught tai chi to De Niro and costar Anne Hathaway. The film is reportedly how the couple were introduced, though they didn't begin their romance until years later.

https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/5-Things-to-Know-About-Robert-De-Niros-Girlfriend-4.jpg?w=1200&quality=86&strip=all
Credit: Matt Baron/BEI/Shutterstock

3. When Did Tiffany Chen Start Dating Robert De Niro?
The twosome were romantically linked in summer 2021 after they were spotted holding hands in the South of France. Pics obtained by the Daily Mail at the time showed the pair packing on the PDA on a luxury yacht. While they've been photographed together countless times since, neither De Niro nor Chen have publicly confirmed their relationship.

https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/5-Things-to-Know-About-Robert-De-Niros-Girlfriend-6.jpg?w=1200&quality=86&strip=all
Credit: JLDuenas/SplashNews.com

4. Who Are Tiffany Chen's Parents?
The world champion is the daughter of Yang Tai Chi Grandmaster William C. C. Chen, who runs his own martial arts academy.

"My plan has always been to learn how to be as great as my father," Tiffany noted during a 2011 interview. "My father is such an inspiration and has given back so much, working together with my mother [Priscilla] at our tai chi school and through his teaching around the world. He is an amazing mentor and role model."

https://www.usmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/5-Things-to-Know-About-Robert-De-Niros-Girlfriend-2.jpg?w=1200&quality=86&strip=all
Credit: LONE WOLF/MEGA

5. Has Tiffany Chen Been Married Before?
Little is known about Tiffany's prior relationships and dating life. In a 2011 interview, she explained the importance of having "generous, beautiful people" in her circle. "Surrounding yourself with good people creates a symbiotic relationship that makes everyone's quality of life go up exponentially," she said.

The-Intern (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68934-The-Intern)
William-C-C-Chen-Tai-Chi-Chuan-info (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?29724-William-C-C-Chen-Tai-Chi-Chuan-info)

[GeneChing]

Robert De Niro, Tiffany Chen attend Tribeca Film Festival after welcoming baby Gia: See photos (https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2023/06/08/robert-de-niro-tiffany-chen-tribeca-baby-gia/70304094007/)
Charles Trepany
USA TODAY

Robert De Niro stepped out with his girlfriend Tiffany Chen two months after the couple welcomed a child together.

The pair were photographed Wednesday holding hands on the red carpet at the Tribeca Film Festival in New York City as they attended a screening of "Kiss the Future." De Niro, 79, previously revealed he welcomed his seventh child in April with Chen.

De Niro's representative Stan Rosenfield confirmed the baby's birth to USA TODAY on May 9, but did not provide any details. On May 11, the "Godfather" star shared more details with "CBS Mornings" host Gayle King, who showed off the first photo of the baby girl, Gia Virginia.

"I said 'Could I please, please, please break the news about what kind of baby is it? What's the baby's name? How did this come about?' " King said on air, adding that the actor agreed to share more about the youngster.

https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/presto/2023/06/08/USAT/eb8467ca-1b1a-4ec9-90a5-fb52ac177833-Robert_De_Niro_and_Tiffany_Chen2.jpg?width=660&height=450&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
Robert De Niro and his girlfriend Tiffany Chen arrive to the screening of "Kiss the Future" during the opening night of the Tribeca Film Festival at OKX Theater in New York City on June 7.

Gayle said that baby De Niro was born April 6 and weighed 8 pounds, 6 ounces.

De Niro is also dad to Drena, 51, and Raphael, 46, from his first marriage to Diahnne Abbott. He shares twins Julian and Aaron, 27, with Toukie Smith, whom he never married. And he shares Elliot, 25, and Helen Grace, 11, with Grace Hightower, whom he wed in 1997 and separated from in 2018. He is also a grandfather.

The actor first spilled the news about his new addition in an interview with ET Canada during a conversation about his film "About My Father", released May 26.

https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/presto/2023/06/08/USAT/d15697a6-3faa-4ca3-bebe-647fe3e7b140-Robert_De_Niro_and_Tiffany_Chen_1.jpg?width=660&height=495&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
De Niro and Chen welcomed a baby together in April.

When reporter Brittnee Blair noted De Niro's six kids, he corrected her, saying, "Seven, actually."

"I just had a baby," he revealed.

He also spoke to Blair about fatherhood, saying he believes "in being loving with (his) kids,” but that sometimes, parents have “to be stern about stuff.”

“I mean, there’s no way around it with kids. I don’t like to have to lay down the law and stuff like that. But, (sometimes) you just have no choice,” he said. “And any parent, I think, would say the same thing. You always want to do the right thing by the children and give them the benefit of the doubt but sometimes you can’t.”

More:Robert De Niro welcomes seventh child at 79, shares name and first photo

Contributing: Morgan Hines

The-Intern (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68934-The-Intern)
William-C-C-Chen-Tai-Chi-Chuan-info (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?29724-William-C-C-Chen-Tai-Chi-Chuan-info)

[GeneChing]

Robert De Niro’s partner Tiffany Chen diagnosed with Bell’s palsy after giving birth (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2023-07-14/tiffany-chen-bells-palsy-robert-de-niro-baby-gia-postpartum)

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Martial arts instructor Tiffany Chen shares that she was diagnosed with Bell’s palsy shortly after giving birth to her first child — and partner Robert De Niro’s seventh — in April. (Andy Kropa / Invision / Associated Press)
BY NARDINE SAADSTAFF WRITER
JULY 14, 2023 8:57 AM PT


Robert De Niro’s partner Tiffany Chen has revealed that she was diagnosed with Bell’s palsy after giving birth in April.

Chen opened up about the postpartum health complication in an interview with “CBS Mornings” host Gayle King, who revealed the tot’s name and first photo in May after getting the runaround from the Oscar-winning actor. On Friday, the newborn, Gia Virginia Chen De Niro, made her TV debut.

Chen said that despite a “really easy” pregnancy with De Niro’s seventh child, “everything was starting to just fall down on itself” after her C-section delivery. The martial arts instructor also described her face as “melting on itself.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7YbtVFr2Wg

Right after the delivery, she felt a sharp pain behind her ear and noticed that her face was “looking odder.” Doctors initially told her the symptoms were likely a result of fluid buildup after giving birth, but the symptoms worsened when she got home. Her tongue felt strange, “a little tingly, starting to get a little bit numb,” and in a week she was readmitted to the hospital.

“I lost all facial function the minute I got into the hospital. And the one thing that threw everybody off was that it was perfectly symmetrical how everything had fallen and how everything wasn’t working,” she said.

The athlete’s MRI showed that she had Bell’s palsy, a neurological disorder that causes severe muscle weakness or facial paralysis. The condition usually affects one side of the face. It can be temporary and tends to resolve itself or with some treatment, according to the Mayo Clinic.

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Chen said that “everything fell,” including her lower lip, making it hard for her to speak or make any facial expressions. And the palsy affected both sides of her face, which is rare.

“I got to a point where it was just hanging and I’d have to hold it up,” she said. “And to talk, I’d have to hold my chin and I’d have to manipulate my lower lip to make certain sounds. I couldn’t say ‘Bob.’”

While her symptoms have improved, some self-conscious issues have remained, including not being able to smile at Gia.

“I couldn’t give her kisses. That’s what made me self-conscious,” Chen said, later adding, “The thing I did worry about was, ‘What if it didn’t get better?’ Was my kid going to get made fun of for having the weird-looking mom? That’s the only time, like, vanity comes into play. It’s how it affects the child.”

Chen was frustrated by negative commentary that focused on her appearance after initial headlines about De Niro’s age at Gia’s birth subsided. (De Niro is 79 and has six other children.)

“I’m like, ‘Mind your own business a bit. And if you want to say something, don’t always attach what you think in your mind as the story. You don’t know us. You don’t know what happened in somebody’s life,’” Chen said. “People were saying all sorts of nasty things about, you know, my appearance and me being angry. And I’m just kind of like, ‘This is, like, the happiest time in my life.’”

The comments also encouraged Chen to share her story to be an ally to other women who are criticized in similar manners.

Chen, who met De Niro when she played his tai chi instructor in his 2015 comedy “The Intern,” said that he was sweet and supportive throughout the ordeal.

“[De Niro] tried to say that he didn’t see any difference, he didn’t see any change,” Chen laughed. “He was like ‘No. ... You look fine.’ He’s like, ‘Maybe you look a little stern.’ And I’m like ‘Really?’ My whole face has melted on itself. But he was very strong, very supportive.”

Chen’s revelation comes amid news that a woman who allegedly sold fentanyl-laced pills to De Niro’s 19-year-old grandson Leandro was arrested. Leandro died earlier this month, but no cause of death was given at the time.


Nardine Saad covers breaking entertainment news, trending culture topics, celebrities and their kin for the Los Angeles Times. She joined The Times in 2010 as a MetPro trainee and has reported from homicide scenes, flooded canyons, red carpet premieres and award shows.

Tiffany Chen & Robert DeNiro (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?72557-Tiffany-Chen-amp-Robert-DeNiro)
The-Intern (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?68934-The-Intern)
William-C-C-Chen-Tai-Chi-Chuan-info (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?29724-William-C-C-Chen-Tai-Chi-Chuan-info)