Red Sand Palm

[kyklos]

Ok so i just read the book "Kung fu: History Philosophy and technique" by David Chow and Richard Spangler. And in it they describe various forms of Hard and Soft Kungs. I've pretty much heard of all of them (Iron Fist , Iron Forearm, Iron Shin, walking softly, Dragon claw, leaping kung, bag kung, etc etc.) except for Red Sand Palm. Supposedly if mastered this Kung will allow the person to kill or severely maim from just "rubbing" the enemy in a certain way. Death can be immediate or it can take as long as two weeks. Being the westerner that i am I must question the reality of this. Are there any masters that practice this or have there ever been documented evidence of it happening in the past? Or is it something that just developed from legend? Oh ya and it supposedly takes around 10 years to master.

Just wonderin if anybody has heard or knows anymore info on this.

Thanks

[dwid]

Are there any masters that practice this or have there ever been documented evidence of it happening in the past?

No. Or rather, if there are, they should be ashamed of themselves.


Or is it something that just developed from legend?

Yes. Maybe somebody did some internal damage with a body shot one time. His enemy dies a few days later and suddenly everybody is talking about his "poison fist." He figures, what the hell, might as well use this to my advantage, supports the rumor, and a myth is born.

Without a well-developed knowledge of medicine, a strike that causes internal injury could well have been perceived as something magical.

[kyklos]

I don't know about their lack of medicinal knowledge. If you take into account hundreds of thousands of years of the development of TCM. Just because they don't have well developed medicine as we see it in western terms doesn't mean its not well developed. Anywho,supposedly the practitioner of "Red Sand Palm" doesn't even strike the person. He can make a movement of "rubbing" with the palm at a distance and it effects the enemy. Supposedly it not only internally effects organs but also the flow of qi and the damage is irreparable. I guess my question is: if these monks are all about pacifism and they learn kung fu as more than just a martial art but a spiritual one, what purpose would this technique serve? I guess they could possibly better manipulate qi?

[bodhitree]

good book on the subject 'Ultimate Iron Palm' by Wing Lam

[dwid]

I don't know about their lack of medicinal knowledge. If you take into account hundreds of thousands of years of the development of TCM. Just because they don't have well developed medicine as we see it in western terms doesn't mean its not well developed.

What I mean is true knowledge of the way the body is structured anatomically and functions physiologically. We now understand (through repeated experimentation and study) how internal organs really work, how the body functions through various cellular reactions, etc... TCM was based on a theoretical paradigm that lacked the tools to study and understand the body on this level. Therefore, they lacked the tools to treat (or even understand) many types of internal injuries. Thus, injuries that might require surgery today would have been fatal at that time and been a slow and painful death.


Anywho,supposedly the practitioner of "Red Sand Palm" doesn't even strike the person. He can make a movement of "rubbing" with the palm at a distance and it effects the enemy. Supposedly it not only internally effects organs but also the flow of qi and the damage is irreparable.

This is absurd. It's just a shaolin equivalent to antiquated western beliefs in witchcraft. Superstitious nonsense.


I guess my question is: if these monks are all about pacifism and they learn kung fu as more than just a martial art but a spiritual one, what purpose would this technique serve? I guess they could possibly better manipulate qi?

The myth of the technique and other deadly ones like it would give bandits cause to question whether it is worth the trouble of robbing a monk, I suppose.

[kyklos]

hrmm.... anybody else got somethin to say?

[Toby]

dwid's hit the correct with a chi blast from 20 feet. In 3 days it will die of internal injuries.

[Vash]

dwid has rubbed the correct the wrong way with a Red Sand Palm. As of this printing, the correct was not planning to file charges.

[fiercest tiger]

If you twist your palm as you strike this can kill, if you know where!

FT:D

[No_Know]

Being able to kill well is no longer great celebrity. If they know they become target for redicule and scoffing, and the less scrupulus~ Possiblly unwanted attention. You might have to piece things together for a while and on day end-up comming across a master of that or not. It sounds danderous to find out success. They might have tests that indicate success, instead of bodies.

As far as pacifists if even it was the monks that did this, do you lay down your life for punks who change in three years or so or are confused/misled? If not then efficient killing of weak, hurting of stronger to intimidate bully gangs who run when the learder falls. this is more peaceful than killing them all. And if they are willing to kill a monk, then they might kill almost anyone. As long as you do not seek them, if they pick on you in those days then at least hrting them might save lives in that they might think twice before attacking another monk and perhaps anyone-ish else.

[ngokfei]

Sand Palm Skills are associated strongly with the Fan zi and Pi Gua styles.

that's all I know

oh and the table they strike is not low (waist height) but at chest height.

[Pakmei]

Hi there,
Hhhmmm.... Been a while since I posted on here!

Red Sand Palm is also known by the name "Cinnibar Palm", which pertains to the fact that such intense energy is cultivated from the Dan Tian (Cinnibar Field) and focused into the palms that the practitioners palms turns red because of the intensity of energy and blood circulation.

The training method for this is said to be by rubbing your hands over fine course sand. However, particular attention must be placed in the projection of qi from your palms to be able to influence the sand below your palms. Hence it's more internal (and destructive) nature, compared to conditioning your palms, hands, fists against bricks, wood, etc when training in iron palm, fist, etc.

Also, this equivalent to Chow Gar's method of training the "Blood Sand Palm", which is an internal method of Qi cultivation compared to the methods of the more external training methods of Iron Palm.

It is said that, when the practitioner strikes the opponents chest. They leave the palm impression where the blood stagnation has and is accumulating.... hence the name "Red / Blood Sand Palm".

[dwid]

Wow, holy thread resurrecting.

I looked back at my posts here and didn't recognize them at first. Then I realized I posted them like 2 years ago.

I prefer the cinnabun palm to cinnabar. Tastes better and takes much longer to kill you.

[TenTigers]

The cinnabun palm is deadly, especially when combined with the tomato kick.


( had a six year old student say that once, and I've been saying it ever since)

[dwid]

That is awesome.:D

[Blacktiger]

This is the info I have on the topic: One of the 5 tigers of the north was one of these practioners his name was Gu Ruzhang

Iron Sand Palm and whose palms were red. Hence the name, Cinnabar Iron Sand
Palm. Gu Ruzhang's Iron Sand Palm was called Black Sand Palm or Hei Sha Zhang.
Naturally, Gu Ruzhang's palms were black. Both Iron Sand Palms are known as
Poison Sand Palm or Tu Sha Chang. The training methods for both Cinnabar and
Black Iron Sand Palms are similar.
> The first stage - Strengthen the palm by striking green peas. This is to numb
the nerve endings in the palm. Later, the peas are replaced by or iron chips or
iron ball bearing. These iron pellets become imbedded into the flesh.
> The second stage - The palms are thrust into hot sand to further strengthen
them.
> The third stage - Diluted poison is added to the iron pellets. With time, the
poison dose is increased slowly in concentration while the body builds immunity
towards the poison.
> After drilling in each stage, herbs are prepared to nurse the hands to prevent
injury. Special herbal liquids are used to reduce swelling and alleviate pain.
Sometimes the pain was so great that practitioners would turn to western drugs
such as opium and heroin to kill the pain. Herbs also play an important role in
the last stage, since herbs prevent the body from absorbing too much of the
toxic poison. The difference between the Cinnabar Iron Sand Palm and Black Iro>
n Sand Palm is the type of poison used in the training. As the fighter strikes
his opponent, the poison is transferred from the palm into the opponent. The
opponent usually dies because of the poison. Many times blisters and welts would
developed and would give the appearance of a snakebite. Hence the name, Poison Hand

[dwid]

That's just silly. Any poison that is powerful and concentrated enough to kill an opponent through hitting him or her would have killed the practitioner long before.

[Blacktiger]

Who knows but the style did exist.......

[Blacktiger]

Most of this info relates to the 1928 comp in Nanjing but as this thread is on the sand palm here is some more info. Gu Ruzhang was one of the last masters of this style, take it for what its worth.

This information was gathered together by Robert Louie from various sources.


When the audience saw that Gu Ruzhang was matched against the Cinnabar Master,
the fight was titled, Black Iron Sand Palm Master verses Red Iron Sand Palm
Master. The Red Cinnabar Iron Sand Palm Master used his Bagua techniques to
circle Gu Ruzhang and looked for an opening. When the Red Cinnabar Iron Sand
Palm Master attacked, Gu Ruzhang avoid the deadly red palm and counter-attacked.
Within three moves Gu Ruzhang struck his opponent with his Black Iron Sand Palm
and knocked his opponent down. On his opponent's chest, was Gu Ruzhang's black
palm imprint. Gu Ruzhang's opponent was quickly escorted off the stage and was
treated for the poison.
> As the tournament got neared its end, the fights became even more violent and
bloody. When there were only thirteen contestants left, the government officials
stopped the tournament. Death would result if the tournament was allowed to
continue and that would not have served the country's needs. The government
declared the last thirteen fighters as China's Best and were called `The
Thirteen Champions of All China'. The thirteen champions voted among themselves
and agreed that Gu Ruzhang was the tournaments best fighter. Many of the
champions felt that Gu Ruzhang skills were equal to the last famous Black Iron
Sand Palm master, Zhao Yijian, who exceeded Gu Ruzhang by one generation.
> The Five Tigers from the North
> As a result of the First National Tournament in Nanjing, 1928, General Zhang
Zhiqiang appointed the five top masters from the tournament to serve as
instructors for the government province schools. Li Jishen, a top government
official for Guangdong and Guangxi Provinces, wanted to strengthen the army and
establish a National Arts program for morning exercises. He asked General Zhang
Zhiqiang if he could return to Canton with the top five masters. General Zhang
approved the request. The five masters were Gu Ruzhang of Northern Shaolin and
Cha Styles, Wan Laisheng of Northern Shaolin and Spontaneous Boxing Styles, Fu
Zhensong of Bagua Style, Wang Shaozhou of Northern Shaolin and Cha Styles, and
Li Xianwu of Northern Shaolin and Spontaneous boxing Styles. These men are
recorded in the text, Wu Lin Chang Ku, as the `Five Tigers heading South of the
River'. Many scholars simply refer to them as `The Five Tigers from the North
who went South'. When the announcement was made officially, Gu Ruzhang was
traveling all over Chiangnan and spreading the Northern Shaolin style. He was
instructed to go south and represent the government as an instructor in the
Guangdong Central National Arts Province School in Canton. The chief army
official was Li Jishen. During this time, Guangdong and Guangzhou Provinces'
martial arts schools were ninety percent southern styles. It was very difficult
for a northern stylist to make a living unless he was exceptionally good. With
the encouragement from Zhang Zhiqiang, Li Jishen appointed Wan Laisheng, who was
a graduate from Beijing University, to be the head of both Central National Arts
Provinces Schools and Gu Ruzhang to be in charge of the Central National Arts
Department in Guangdong Province.
> Wan Laisheng ordered Wang Shaozhou to be head of the Guangxi Provincial
School. Since this was the first school to be set up, Wan Laisheng requested
that all five champions assist Wang Shaozhou in setting up a standard martial
arts program. At the Guangxi Provincial School, the masters there agreed that
the basic standard sets would be Lin Bo from Master Wu Zhiqing, who was a master
of Cha and Short Strike Style and Ten row Tan Tui which was already a standard
set for Jing Wu Physical Association. While Gu Ruzhang stayed at the Guangxi
Provincial School, he learned Cha Style from Qian Zhansheng. Gu Ruzhang became
very intere> sted in the history of Cha Style since it was originally taught at
the Shaolin Monastery and then disappeared after the destruction of the
monastery in 1732.

[TenTigers]

I would be interested in what exactly these "various sources" were. While much of it does appear to be historical record, the entire first part description of the fight sounds like total malarky. The idea of shards of metal being imbedded into the skin sounds again, like B.S. How could you train with shards of metal in your skin? Heck, anyone who's gotten a steel wool splinter in their finger (you know, they're so small, you can't see them, but they hurt like mad...and you gotta keep touching it!) realizes what total crap that story is. Could you imagine your entire hand having those? How do you go to the bathroom? YIKES!
Y'know, sometimes you have to take a step back, and really put yourself in their place. Then you would see just how ridiculous it all is.

[Blacktiger]

Sure does sound crazy, ouch :eek:

[mung foo]

That sounds more like movie kungfu than actual facts. Fairy tales mixed with truth.

While the 5 northern tigers did exits and travelled south (accord. to YangJwing Ming book's and also from oral tradition). They met up with the masters of southern kungfu and togther they opened the National Kuoshu Training Center. The southern masters were-
Chang Lai Chun (white eyebrow)
Lam Yue kwai (dragon)
Lam Sai Wing (hung ga) Wong fei Hung's disciple. The fat butcher in the Jetli
movies
Tam Sam (choyli fut)
and I think Lam Yum Tong? (mok ga)

Chang Lai Chun was intructor at the Wong Po Military Academy (the national army acedemy located in Guangzhou) during the Republican Era. the equivalent of West Point. His first student was a Colonel or General? Liu Jung Yan who died in Nanking fighting the Japenese. Lam Yue Kwai also shared this honor as instructor at the military acedemy.

Lam Sai wing, well, his reputation and lineage speaks for itself. Tam Sam from what i heard, was very well known for his iron broom skill, and was very popular among the provinces around Guangzhou.