Deadlift shoulder position

[Toby]

I've always thought to keep your shoulders pushed "forward" (from your body) for DL until the finish position. I've read it in a lot of places, the one that sticks out being that (Dave Tate?) article where he's visiting a strange gym and does some 400lb DLs and edumacates the local trainer:

http://www.t-mag.com/articles/194dead.html

However, the other day I read an article:

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/joeaverage2.htm

that said to pull your shoulder blades together to stay behind the bar. I tried this and it was difficult with 330lb whereas it isn't really a problem (well, it is but I can do it :p) with shoulders forward. One thing I had to do was start lower since the difference between shoulders back and forward is a good 6" of reach or more. I tend to do more straight legged than squatting to the bar like he says, and like you have to with shoulder blades together (which is another violation of the 1st article which says no squatting) i.e. I start higher. Any thoughts? Mine is the article was full of **** after trying it. Funny thing is, he references Westside, Louie and Dave in part 1 of the article. BTW, I DL conventional, so maybe this applies more to sumo.

[IronFist]

I just did the deadlift motion a few times (no bar or anything, I'm in my room) just to see where my shoulders were. I guess I keep them in the middle. I got down in the starting position and I could push them forward or backward. If you pull them back, you do have to get lower.

So, I dunno. I can't imagine it would be too good to have them ALL the way forward, tho.

I guess do what's comfortable. I never really put too much thought into deadlift shoudler position before, tho. Thanks for making me think about it.

[IronFist]

This (http://www.t-mag.com/img/photos/194liftbig.jpg) guy (the pic from the article) looks like his toes are almost under the weight plates! I hope he doesn't drop it on his feet. Ow! That's a wide stance!

[Toby]

Mmm. I push them pretty much all the way forward. Hands as far away from the body as I can. I mean, once you lift, the weight is pulling them "forward" anyway, especially in the early stages.

[abobo]

I don't have much time right now but here are some tidbits:

Your shoulders stay behind the bar throughout the lift.

The Westside guys say to arch hard with the lower back but let the upper back stay rounded.

I'm probably more toward rounded forward than shoulder blades pulled back myself.

[Toby]

Yeah, that pic screams hurt to me. I don't like how far out his toes are turned, either. But like I said, I lift conventional so I don't know the whole sumo thing. When I squat wide I don't turn out my toes that far anyway.

[Toby]

Originally posted by abobo
Your shoulders stay behind the bar throughout the lift.

I'm pretty sure that's what he's talking about. If I kept my hips lower, back more upright and my blades together, I'd stay behind the bar more. However, I tend to lift (like he says) more with the back i.e. higher hips and straighter legs. With my form, my back is more horizontal, so shoulders forward or back means vertical displacement, not keeping behind the bar. To stay behind the bar it helps me most if I concentrate on trying to keep vertical shins.

[IronFist]

I do regular stance deadlift, too.

The thing to remember when judging the Westside guys is that yeah, they are all elite level lifters, but they won't let you join their club if you're not already an elite level lifter to begin with. So it's not like their methods are so incredible they can make a world class lifter out of anybody.

^ So I'm told.

[Toby]

Re Westside, yeah, I know. But I do tend to do all the things that Dave Tate says in the t-mag article. I don't follow Westside's training protocol (due to time and intensity) but I will gladly follow their form tips. I'm certainly never going to be an elite lifter, due to lack of drugs and genetic predisposition (tall and lanky).

[FooFighter]

Toby:

I think you should keep your shoulder in neutral. Meaning finding the mid position of protraction and retraction of your scapular. In this neutral position you shall find you will have better leverage and it helps develop postural correction of the shoulder complex.

From my own personal experience, I have found that in an extreme scapular protraction or shoulder foward position it is pretty hard to arch your back or main neutral in your hip complex.
Here is a simple test. Try it in now while you sitting now. ROUND your shoulders at the same time arch your back. IMPOSSIBLE! If you are DeadLifting with no arch on your in back or round lower back, you are actually placing your body in a dangerous position in theory. The concept of to pull your shoulder blades together to stay behind the bar sounds better choice since most people have poor posture and in this position, you can easy arch your back or place the hip complex in neutral. Indirectly this method also strengthen the retraction muscles of the scapular which may improve posture.

[Ford Prefect]

I was always taught to keep my shoulders neutral during the DL and lock them into place by flexing my pecs and lats. This was always referred to as the "pec-lat lock". If you allow your shoulders to be pulled forward you can injure your traps and shoulder girdle.

[FooFighter]

Ford, good point and advice. I do the same thing myself.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FooFighter
ROUND your shoulders at the same time arch your back. IMPOSSIBLE!

I can do it. I just did it again to double check.

[FooFighter]

IronFist:

LOL. Let me clear sometime up. From a neutral position, you can
can not protract your scapulars and do a anterior hip tilt at the same time. Meaning, that it quite unnatural and not structurally sound to have protracted shoulders and an anterior tlit. It quite natural to retract your shoulder and have an anterior tlit. Look at people who have poor posture, they usually have protracted shoulders and a posterior tlit. On the other hand, if you look at gays or dances, they have retracted shoulder and anterior tlits.

[IronFist]

You want me to post a pic of it? :D

[Toby]

Originally posted by FooFighter
On the other hand, if you look at gays or dances, they have retracted shoulder and anterior tlits.
*Pushes shoulders forward furiously, rounds lower back*

Seriously, I can do it. The back doesn't have to all do the same thing at the same time. Like abobo suggested (and Iron says he can do), I can arch my lower back and push my shoulders forward.

Anyway, I should probably concentrate on a neutral position because my recurrent shoulder injury is bothering me again. Lots of crunching going on in there :eek:. I suspect mostly from weighted pullups, though. But here's the problem - I'm lifting quite a bit (for me) now, and if I keep the shoulders neutral by locking the pecs and lats (like Ford suggested), I suspect that I will be very limited by my strength in those areas. I may be dropping e.g. 50lb or more. I mean, I can DL and squat 350lb and my back and legs are fine with it (OK, not exactly "fine"), but I doubt my lats and pecs will be able to support 350lb holding my shoulders straight. Get what I mean? Is shoulders forward setting myself up for shoulder injury? If so, I'll drop weight and retrain form.