Pai Mei - What's the story?

[Serpent]

Hey guys

I just saw Kill Bill v.2. Really good movie. However, this is not the place to discuss it. I was wondering if any of you could point me to a good online account of the Pai Mei character used in the film. I know he was supposed to be the Shaolin bad boy, but I don't know much of his story.

Anyone?

[Gangsterfist]

Check out these movies

Fist of the white lotus

Revenege of shaolin

Pai Mei is a main character in both movies. Tarentino was paying homage to old kung fu cinema. Just like Hanzo Hitori was a character from an old japanese series called shadow warrior. Each season was a continuation of the Hanzo lineage. The Hanzo in kill bill was Hanzo the 100th.

Historically Pai Mei (or Pei Mei, which means "white eyebrows") was a Shaolin grandmaster, one of the "invincible five." Apparently, Grand Master Chi Thien Su was chosen to lead the Shaolins, which upset Pai Mei and he left the order to live the life of an itinerent monk.

Now, the Shaolins were apparently opposed to the Manchu emperor, whom they regarded as a foreigner, and they made a bit of trouble for him. So, some time in the mid- eighteenth century, the Emperor recruited Pai Mei to lead an assault on the last Shaolin Temple. Pai Mei and 50,000 troops assaulted the Shaolin Temple in Henan.

Pai Mei challenged Grand Master Chi Thien Su (also one of the invincible five) to a duel and, after an extended battle, broke his neck.

Pai Mei has shown up in numerous Kung Fu films, usually as an evil (or at least amoral) Shaolin traitor. Sometimes even as the leader of the Wu Tang Clan

[blooming lotus]

bak mei is nearly always depicted as traitorous....I have a movie that may be may not be one of Jackie Chans' , ?? called crane and tiger or similar??? It shows him and the story from another angle...If you're interested I'll find the correct title and get back to you

[Serpent]

GF - thanks, that helps. So, is Pei Mei and Bak Mei the same dude?

[blooming lotus]

bai mei, pai mei, bak mei,...........same person


I always thought was funny, 'cause here this traitorous dude named bak (back ) mei (me) :p

[Gangsterfist]

It kind of plays into wing chun history ironically. Ng Mui was one of the "invincible five" according to some people. The thing is that chinese history is a lot of hearsay because no one kept any kind of offical record around. So some people claim that Ng Mui never existed, or that he was really a man dressed as a women when in hiding from the manhus.

That is also where wing chun starts getting political, so I will leave it at that. If you want more info just google search the 5 elders of shaolin, or the invincible 5, or 5 master monks. Each one was master at one art. They say after the temple burned down they combined what they knew from each other's art and went their seperate ways. Who knows what really happened though.

[blooming lotus]

you mean ng mui as in one of the shaolin-five from wingchun history....creator of dimmak?

[MasterKiller]

There is a good Bak Mei thread in the Southern Forum:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21557&highlight=Bak+Mei

[norther practitioner]

Just as an fwi, they didn't they changed the premise of pai mei for kill bill...

I think that lui says something to that effect in the interview for the ezine.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you mean ng mui as in one of the shaolin-five from wingchun history....creator of dimmak?

Yeah, but I never heard of Ng Mui creating Dim Mak. She was proficient in the plum blossom fist. The legend (and yes legend because its not proved) is that Ng Mui saw a sparring match once against a white crane and snake boxer. The fight was a good one and she was impressed. She then combined movements from crane and snake along with her plum blossom fist and created the basics of what we call wing chun nowadays.

However, I digress, every lineage says something different and it turns into one giant argument. So just look at them as stories.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Just as an fwi, they didn't they changed the premise of pai mei for kill bill...

I think that lui says something to that effect in the interview for the ezine. They changed the story to make Pai Mei seem more tempermental. In Vol. 2, he says Pai Mai destroyed the temple and killed the 60 monks living there because a Shaolin priest failed to recognize a subtle head-nod Pai Mei offered in his direction.

you mean ng mui as in one of the shaolin-five from wingchun history....creator of dimmak? There are two Ng Muis, unrelated, who lived a couple of hundred years apart. Don't know if that means anything to your conversation, though.

[GeneChing]

Here's an ezine article (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=131) from our Dec 2000 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=130).

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
you mean ng mui as in one of the shaolin-five from wingchun history....creator of dimmak?

wha? Do you have any links to support that?

[Gangsterfist]

In wing chun history Ng Nui was one of the 5 elders. So it seems legends entertwine. I don't know how accurate any of it is though.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
.
There are two Ng Muis, unrelated, who lived a couple of hundred years apart. Don't know if that means anything to your conversation, though.

can you tell us more about that?

7*...are you kiding??? are you surewe're on the same networking web system?:confused: .....most of my searches I did kazzar......you sure you've never seen this info???... over and over again..............????

[SevenStar]

then give me a link...

What I've seen doesn't agree with that.

[blooming lotus]

I'm sorry...I don't have one...remember, I've just moved more than halfway across the world...this is office computer so i don't even have my favourites....

Check out kazzar for yourself...I think I found it under "Wing chun history"....just keep in mind that with kazzar, alot of hat info is there one day and gone the nxt...I'm sure you'll find something associating her (..or was that him) with dim mak origin

good luck...and let us know

[SevenStar]

There's nothing on the net to support that, so far. She knew dim mak, but did NOT create it. I did find some things stating that the founder of some style of taiji MAY have created it.

[GeneChing]

I do, but I only teach it to beautiful, statuesque blondes. ;)

[Serpent]

Do you mean the Five Point Exploding Heart Palm? I learned that from an old man with big eyebrows and a long white beard, but he took my eye for the priviledge.

[GeneChing]

So you're a one-eyed serpent, are you?

[Vash]

I wish OMA had the kind of legend present in CMA . . . ;)

[blooming lotus]

7

I can't believe you haven't found anything coresponding....when I did my searches, that's all I found :confused:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GeneChing
So you're a one-eyed serpent, are you?
Ah, ya beat me to it! ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
7

I can't believe you haven't found anything coresponding....when I did my searches, that's all I found :confused:

and you can't remember not even ONE link? I've talked to various colleagues who train WC and none of them have heard it. She knew dim mak, but did not create it.

[blooming lotus]

:confused:

do you know how much onformation I'veseen over the last 6 mths - year ?????

my little brother has the same information
and may be able to give me some links to pass on....

I don't know when I 'll be able to speak to him, but leave it with me

[SevenStar]

that's somewhat irrelevant, as you're on the net everyday. If you've got time to post, you've got time to search...

[GeneChing]

I wish OMA had the kind of legend present in CMA Yeah, that's why I'm not into BJJ. Their legends are dull. BJJ never talks about the five-point exploding heart technique, just figure-four leg locks ;)

[norther practitioner]

five-point exploding heart technique

V2 is starting to grow on you young grasshopper.

[GeneChing]

Don't get me wrong - I loved the Pai Mei scene and the Elle Driver scene, but I just didn't feel that warranted a whole movie. V2 turned into a love story between Uma and Caine and I just couldn't stomach that. :p


Ah, ya beat me to it! Ouch, that's an ugly pun. :eek:

[MasterKiller]

FWIW,
In the recent Taiji Chuan issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=377) of KF/TC magazine, Zhong Yun Long, chief Wudan priest, said the story of Bak Mei is only a legend.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
that's somewhat irrelevant, as you're on the net everyday. If you've got time to post, you've got time to search...

back atchya ;)

like I said on anotherthread..have history major colleage looking into it...I'll let you know what we come up with.........

if you have no time yourself :p

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Ouch, that's an ugly pun. :eek:
Ooh, now you've gone further than even I intended! :eek:

[GeneChing]

This is getting out of hand. ouch! another bad pun. stop me before i go blind.*

If memory serves, Chief Priest Zhong attributed a lot of the Bak Mei myth to Jin Yong. I haven't been able to pin down the exact reference yet, but I'm working on it.

*do not add that to your Gene quotes, Serp. ;)

[Serpent]

I could make a massive Volcano Admim style sig just out of your puns, Gene!

With all the various Bak Mei legends out there, what re the common themes, other than the eyebrows? For example, are the times always consistent?

[MasterKiller]

Serp,
I posted this site in the main forum looking for something similar. There are different accounts of who Bak Mei fought here and how he died:

http://www.kungfu.uklinux.net/fights/index.htm

I was curious as to how consistent the legends are.

[GeneChing]

In the most general version, Bak Mei is the betrayer of Shaolin Temple, causing it to be burned down in the Qing. This gives rise to the Five ancestors myth - the origin of most southern styles. Bak Mei is typically described as a former Shaolin disciple, often one who fails the dashanmen, and then converts to Wudang. It sets up a rivalry between Buddhists and Taoists, Shaolin vs. Wudang.

This is all part of Southern CMA lore. The Shaolin temple mentioned in this story is the southern Shaolin temple, not original temple in Henan. Current research brings into question the very existence of the Southern temple. Most scholars beleive that there were subsidiary Shaolin temples in the south, but not necessarily a single southern Shaolin temple. Right now, there are three temples claiming that legacy, all recently reconstructed, none officially recognized by Songshan Shaolin. What's more, the southern folklore doesn't jive with the well-researched topic of the Tiandihui. Now, we look upon it as a great creation myth, but most scholars are skeptical of its actual validity.

[Serpent]

Interesting stuff. Thanks guys.

[Ironwind]

Originally posted by GeneChing
In the most general version, Bak Mei is the betrayer of Shaolin Temple, causing it to be burned down in the Qing. This gives rise to the Five ancestors myth - the origin of most southern styles. Bak Mei is typically described as a former Shaolin disciple, often one who fails the dashanmen, and then converts to Wudang. It sets up a rivalry between Buddhists and Taoists, Shaolin vs. Wudang.

This is all part of Southern CMA lore. The Shaolin temple mentioned in this story is the southern Shaolin temple, not original temple in Henan. Current research brings into question the very existence of the Southern temple. Most scholars beleive that there were subsidiary Shaolin temples in the south, but not necessarily a single southern Shaolin temple. Right now, there are three temples claiming that legacy, all recently reconstructed, none officially recognized by Songshan Shaolin. What's more, the southern folklore doesn't jive with the well-researched topic of the Tiandihui. Now, we look upon it as a great creation myth, but most scholars are skeptical of its actual validity.

I always thought that the southern temple was'nt seperate from the original and it would make since. Like what if around the main training ground they had departments or seperate fighting methods that may promote different types of attacking styles. Maybe each different instructor or trainer had his on belief and research added into thier style and wanted the perfection of his developing style to be passed along to his student.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ironwind
I always thought that the southern temple was'nt seperate from the original and it would make since. Like what if around the main training ground they had departments or seperate fighting methods that may promote different types of attacking styles. Maybe each different instructor or trainer had his on belief and research added into thier style and wanted the perfection of his developing style to be passed along to his student. You watch too many movies.


Come to think of it, so do I.

[GeneChing]

Actually, Songshan is departmentalized now. Different monks and masters hae different specialities. They all share some common core methods, but they do specialize, which is in turn passed down to their students. Nobody masters everything Shaolin - it's too much. This is one reason why some monks don't know some others very well - they may have learned under different masters and not had very much contact. Their teachings might be quite different, once you get past that core curriculam.

The southern temple may well have been nothing more than a subsidiary temple or even a series of temples. There is a documentable history of subsidiary temples immediatedly surrounding Shaolin, parallel to the private schools that are there now in a way, so the notion of subsidiaries in other provinces is not far fetched at all.

[blooming lotus]

as we know, at this time of pai mei and is apparent traitorialism, the mongols ofthe nth were gathering momentum, ( it is intersting from a developemental point of view to note that the mongol forces had fighting art from varied regions and countries..as far as russia!!!???...and up to times as recent as mid 1900s until Russia jacked up at the whole losing face on the new regime and refused assistance fiascoe)

anyway, so for safety sake the monks split and or headed sthwd to find peace in the as yet non-non-chinese afflicted regions...hence the desire to preserve China from such influence...

I also saw a doco the other night regarding the wu bamboo slips of chongsha...( as in wu kingdom) bamboo slips or slither of wood being the ancient method of recording information...the crazy thing about the recent ( 1996) discovery of these slips is that a. never before in history has been found so many slips in the one area ( <140 00) and never before has there been discovered slips relating to times pre-han...these slips providing information up to and including 600bc!!!!

what are the implications here relating to buddhism, gongfu, shaolin, records of birth /death and interim activity??...how does or will this effect the base of academc knowledge we have to date accepted as "legitimate substantiated fact"??...I think this is extremely exciting to all seekers of truth and knowledge of times past....it is unprecidented and I say here, be careful what facts you're standing on , because they could well turn out to be an uninformed delusion

for interest sake, they say these slips ( held in Chongsha museum )could take several generations to restore and translate, though with modern science developing so rapidly, they could also be underestimating the power of their desire which no doubt will gather inertia as more exciting facts begin to surface...

as for the links I promised, we are now....here in Zhengzhou.... on 1 wks holidays...when my colleages return, I'll get them to you to check-out for yourself

also read today quite a bit about the dynasties...serious story there ha....

;) cheers

[blooming lotus]

this is probably the wron place to bring this up, so excuse me, but in my research, I stubld on an important incositistancy...

buddhism arrives in China 1 bc

tamo arrives to already established temple at luoyang 500 ad

tamo ( according to history, founded ch'an buddhism and shaolin).. mkes his mark end of han dynasy...202 bc - 208 ad
which was suppoesdly eastern han right??
wouldn't 500 ad put him in the sthn Dynasties IE Chen??...or maybe nthn wei?..ish..

is it just me or does the math just not add up??
I know, we've said before that shaolin history is dubious and spectulative because it was never recorded pre-han...
now you understand my interest in the content of slips? I have no doubt they'll turn up something great...
by then shaolin should have it's unesco protection and resume some deserved recognition....

I know shaolin and ch'an wasn't recognized until the 13 monks saved the emporor and from there grew infamey...but what happened in between???? that's a 200 yr substantial gap??? any thoughts??...does dr.Shahar have anything on this period??

sorry Serpent..maybe we should move this discussion :p :D

[GeneChing]

tamo ( according to history, founded ch'an buddhism and shaolin).. mkes his mark end of han dynasy...202 bc - 208 ad It doesn't add up because that's not correct. Better check your sources on that. Tamo ca. 470-543 (?) CE

[blooming lotus]

ok...dealing with sh*tloads of info at present...alot of complicated stuff and alot conflicting...will do though :cool:

[GeneChing]

And Dr. Shahar focuses on Ming/Qing for the most part. Generally speaking, scholars will focus on a single dynasty or two. There's enough in any dynasty to keep any scholar busy for their entire academic career. And I'm sure he would confirm my Tamo dates above....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by GeneChing
What's more, the southern folklore doesn't jive with the well-researched topic of the Tiandihui. That Book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0804723249/qid=1083692079/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-6253677-3232949?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) is $60! :eek: You got a Cliff Notes version?

[MasterKiller]

In FIST OF THE WHITE LOTUS, Pak Mei is supposed to be Pai Mei's brother. Pai Mei is the bad guy in EXECUTIONERS OF DEATH, but is killed at the end.

I always thought Pak Mei, Bak Mei, Pai Mei, were all the same guy. Was this just something the Shaw Bros. did for an excuse to make a sequel?

[GeneChing]

...but if you want to do some serious research, you got to pay the price. Always. Good research never comes easy. If you want Cliff notes, well, just stick to what you read on the forums here. It might not be right, but if you're not willing to put out the effort, that's all you get.

I'd have to see the Chinese for Bak Mei to know for sure. It was a nickname - Bai Mei in mandarin, Bak Mei in Cantonese. It literally means "white eyebrow". Sometimes B's become P's when you romanize the characters. As for the Pak/Pai brother thing, well, since it's a nickname, that would mean that one borhter is named "white eyebrow" and the other is named "pai eyebrow" - again without the characters, it's hard to really discern. FWIW, anyone doing their martial research by watching movies, well, that's just ridiculous. Actually, I'd venture to say you'd do better with videogames than with movies. But both are based on books, so that's where you should really concetrate your efforts. Assuming you're really serious about this stuff.

Now I don't mean to sound critical of those who aren't willing to drop $60 on a book just to find out that their origin legends are dubious. Hell, I just want you all to drop $15 to subscribe (http://store.martialartsmart.net/19341.html) Now, of course, I do take the high ground on this, because I did drop the $60 years ago - I'm a researcher, so I do that. But ultimately, the creation myth of any martial art doesn't really matter - it's just myth. You don't really need to know it, although it helps - any knowledge helps. What I do object to is those that attempt to argue this creation stuff who haven't 'dropped the $60' so to speak. That's just ridiculous.

[MasterKiller]

I did go to the trouble to look the book up. Give me a little credit. :D

Does that book actually discuss these characters' orgins specifically?

[GeneChing]

Well, that's the point, really. Murray documents seven versions of the Xi Lu legend - this is the five elder/ancestors story of which we are so familiar in CMA. It's the creation myth for almost all of the southern styles. Xi Lu refers to a barbarian tribe that was quelled around the 1670's by the Shaolin monks. This bourght them recognition from the Emperor, which due to some political intrigue, caused a backlash and the Emperor burned Shaolin down. Five monks survive and go on to inspire the Tiandihui. Now the disturbing part is that the names of these five monks does NOT match up with the five that we generally accept in CMA. That creates a huge problem for anyone researching this. The oral tradition in CMA doesn't match the documented tradition.

For those not familiar, Tiandihui, means Heaven and Earth Society, sometimes refered to as the Hung Men - that's right, same Hung as in Hung Gar. Now, most of us in the West are only familiar with the Hong Kong CMA versions of these creation myths. Most of that research seems to be based on oral tradition and a few 20th century books. Gigi and I did some research on the Taiwan Hung Men tradition, which we presented in a two part article - part one in May June 2003 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=318), part two in July Aug 2003 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=351) - unfortunately because presents some alternative perspectives on this period, it went over the heads of most HK descendants. As an aside, there's also an article on the Southern Shaolin Temple from Benny Meng in July Aug that discusses what remains in Fujian (if you are interested in a cheaper alternative to Murray's book, this issue (http://store.martialartsmart.net/kf200117.html) is worth adding to your collection ;) ) Meng attributes the founding of Nan Shaolinsi to the tale of the monks fighting off the Japanese pirates, which he dates in the 7th. Other scholars have placed this event in the Ming (1368-1644). In either case, most postulate that Nan Shaolin was a subsidiary temple - a fangtuo meaning a semi-indepedent temple.